Opinions on AOPA's Vref program please

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

I'm starting to narrow down my target aircraft and just today started
looking at them through Vref at the same time. I'd like to read your
opinions of that pricing service - both good and bad - and any
suggestions you might have as to other pricing tools that worked for
you.

BTW, the target will probably be something along the lines of the Cessna
172 / Beech Sierra or Sundowner / Grumman AA5. I like the Pipers also,
but want two doors - I've spent lots of time in the Commander 112
series, but don't have the budget for them.


Thanks.

[Doug[_1_]]

Truth is, the market is down right now. Bargains abound. Good time to
buy. You should be able to beat Vref and TAP appraisals by 20% or more.
But each sale is different. If you find an airplane that really fits
the profile, that is worth something. With flying as expensive as it is
a few thousand one way or the other on buying is soon forgotten. Buy
the bird you will be happy with for a while. Moving up is expensive.

[A Lieberma]

"Jim Carter" > wrote in
news:001101c71178$d70168d0$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100:

> BTW, the target will probably be something along the lines of the
> Cessna 172 / Beech Sierra or Sundowner / Grumman AA5. I like the
> Pipers also, but want two doors - I've spent lots of time in the
> Commander 112 series, but don't have the budget for them.

If you are looking for creature comfort and don't mind sacraficing a few
knots for that comfort, you will really enjoy the Sundowner line.

Not sure how tight your budget is, but also consider insurance coverage as
it's a huge difference between complex and non complex (Sierra vs
Sundowner).

If you have any questions on Sundowern ownership experiences, you can reach
me at atlieb in the gmail.com domain.

Allen

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jim Carter" > said:
>I'm starting to narrow down my target aircraft and just today started
>looking at them through Vref at the same time. I'd like to read your

I'll echo what Doug said - we just sold our club's Warrior, and only got
about 75% of what Vref said we should have gotten for it. It's a good
market to be buying, and a terrible market to be selling.

Our club's Lance has a run-out engine and old avionics. With the prices
so far down, we're wondering if it wouldn't be cheaper to buy a newer
Saratoga with a mid-time engine and new avionics than to overhaul the
engine and prop and install a GPS in this Lance - I'm sure the upgrade
would cost close to $60K, and the plane probably isn't worth much more
than $50K as is. So do we spend $60K on upgrades, or do we sell it for
$50K and see what we can get for $110K in the current market? Who knows.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
The only sensible way to estimate the stability of a Windows server
is to power it down and try it out as a step ladder.
-- Robert Crawford

[Bob Noel]

In article <001101c71178$d70168d0$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100>,
"Jim Carter" > wrote:

> I'm starting to narrow down my target aircraft and just today started
> looking at them through Vref at the same time. I'd like to read your
> opinions of that pricing service - both good and bad - and any
> suggestions you might have as to other pricing tools that worked for
> you.

As an owner who is not looking to sell, I've figured that vref consistently
puts my 140 too high, way too high, maybe 20% to 25% too high.
However, vref finally stopped giving value for common equipment
(e.g., a 2nd navcom) and stopped giving value for avionics that
people simply don't want anymore (e.g., DME).

good luck in your search.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Alan Gerber]

Bob Noel > wrote:
> However, vref finally stopped giving value for common equipment
> (e.g., a 2nd navcom) and stopped giving value for avionics that
> people simply don't want anymore (e.g., DME).

Hey, *I* want a DME!

But that's probably because the Warrior I rent doesn't have a GPS. The
DME makes life easier when all you (otherwise) have is two VORs.

Or is there something else that would give the same information as the
DME?

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

Jim Carter wrote:
> I’m starting to narrow down my target aircraft and just today started
> looking at them through Vref at the same time. I’d like to read your
> opinions of that pricing service – both good and bad – and any
> suggestions you might have as to other pricing tools that worked for you.

The free price estimation offered by AOPA and Trade-A-Plane both give
very high numbers.

I recommend http://aeroprice.com

I have no vested interest.

They have a couple of different price estimation products. They're not
free, but they seem to be based on solid concepts and in my experience
give pretty accurate results. The price for the appraisal is in the
noise level compared to making a mistake on the price.

[Paul kgyy]

When I bought my airplane several years ago, VREF seemed to produce
prices that were on average about 10% high. There's a software package
called Aeroprice (use google) that provided more realistic values.

I've thought that VREF should be used to set a selling price if you can
match what's in the airplane reasonably well.

I haven't used TAP's service so can't comment.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Alan Gerber > said:
>Bob Noel > wrote:
>> However, vref finally stopped giving value for common equipment
>> (e.g., a 2nd navcom) and stopped giving value for avionics that
>> people simply don't want anymore (e.g., DME).
>
>Hey, *I* want a DME!
>
>But that's probably because the Warrior I rent doesn't have a GPS. The
>DME makes life easier when all you (otherwise) have is two VORs.
>
>Or is there something else that would give the same information as the
>DME?

The point isn't that you don't need DME (well, unless you have a GPS), but
that it doesn't appreciably change the resale value of the plane.

I bet there are lots of used DMEs on the market from people installing
GPSes. I know we have one that we didn't bother to sell because they're
not worth much, so we're keeping it as a backup.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
It's a house of cards, supported not on the backs of turtles but on bull****.
Making the bull**** gooier makes the house of cards less likely to collapse,
but is not necessarily an improvement. -- Alan J Rosenthal

[Matt]

"Alan Gerber" wrote:
> Or is there something else that would give the same information as the
> DME?

A sectional chart and a plotter. :) Sorry, couldn't resist.

Matt

[Robert M. Gary]

Jim Carter wrote:
> I'm starting to narrow down my target aircraft and just today started
> looking at them through Vref at the same time. I'd like to read your
> opinions of that pricing service - both good and bad - and any
> suggestions you might have as to other pricing tools that worked for
> you.
>
> BTW, the target will probably be something along the lines of the Cessna
> 172 / Beech Sierra or Sundowner / Grumman AA5. I like the Pipers also,
> but want two doors - I've spent lots of time in the Commander 112
> series, but don't have the budget for them.

I haven't bought any airplanes for a couple years now (my wife is happy
about that). However, in my experience Vref was about 10-20% low.
Prices were higher. However, its also regional. I'm in California. If I
were willing to fly out to Florida there seemed to be a lot of good
deals. You also sometimes find good deals in the MidWest. Last plane I
bought was a Mooney and I went out to Arkansas for it. Prices were
about 20% higher in California. We pay 7% sales/use tax either way in
California so taxes makes no difference.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article <001101c71178$d70168d0$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100>,
> "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>
> > I'm starting to narrow down my target aircraft and just today started
> > looking at them through Vref at the same time. I'd like to read your
> > opinions of that pricing service - both good and bad - and any
> > suggestions you might have as to other pricing tools that worked for
> > you.
>
> As an owner who is not looking to sell, I've figured that vref consistently
> puts my 140 too high, way too high, maybe 20% to 25% too high.
> However, vref finally stopped giving value for common equipment
> (e.g., a 2nd navcom) and stopped giving value for avionics that
> people simply don't want anymore (e.g., DME).

Unless you have an IFR GPS, the DME is important. Lots of airport I
wouldn't have been able to get into w/o a DME for IFR GPS.

-Robert

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Alan Gerber > wrote:

> > However, vref finally stopped giving value for common equipment
> > (e.g., a 2nd navcom) and stopped giving value for avionics that
> > people simply don't want anymore (e.g., DME).
>
> Hey, *I* want a DME!
>
> But that's probably because the Warrior I rent doesn't have a GPS. The
> DME makes life easier when all you (otherwise) have is two VORs.

True - but you are renting. I think buyers want the GPS, and don't
care about DME.

>
> Or is there something else that would give the same information as the
> DME?

IFR GPS, VFR GPS, LORAN

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate