old days

[Airman]

I sure miss the old days when we had a lively discussion group with
some very experienced pilots opining upon matters. Poster were for the
most part civil and if you could ask the right questions then listen a
guy like Nick Lappos (or many other very experienced pilots) would
respond.

Happy Holidays to all Helio drivers!

Anyone got any stories they want to tell? Near miss, mistake, how they
solved a problem? When I get the time this next week I will write up
my VERY near miss with a MD 80 out of Burbank (missed by 10 feet
according to the pilot of the MD 80).

Fly safe
Roger

[Jim Carriere]

Airman wrote:
> I sure miss the old days when we had a lively discussion group with
> some very experienced pilots opining upon matters. Poster were for the
> most part civil and if you could ask the right questions then listen a
> guy like Nick Lappos (or many other very experienced pilots) would
> respond.

Roger, I miss the old days too. But I think there is still a
significant wealth of knowledge here, just a lot of quiet people (lurkers).

This is a little long and rambling, but I put a lot of thought into how
aircrew handle emergencies, however great or small the emergency and
whoever the crew is composed of.

I am presently a military flight instructor and have been for a bit less
than three years. I would hesitate to call myself "very" experienced.
Partly by choice and partly by circumstances, I have become specialized
in and good at instrument flying. Handling emergencies and crew
resource management both play a big part, and of course both relate to
the study of human behavior.

Today I was practicing emergencies in the simulator (required periodic
proficiency practice... say that three times fast!). Now, not because
I've become "that good" or salty (hardly), but I reacted very calmly to
one type of malfunction (erroneous engine out indication, think loud
alarm noise with bright red light and rpm gauge winding down) that
usually startles most guys. The common reaction is to be startled and
quickly lower the collective; my hands didn't even move... why? Note
that an actual engine failure is also accompanied by a physical reaction
from the aircraft and additional instrument indications. Now, I
honestly wasn't "spring loaded" in my mind for this particular
malfunction, so why did I react atypically?

It occurred to me that at my present experience level, I have grown to
regard many malfunctions and minor emergencies as a nuisance. I
wondered if this was bad, if this was a warning sign that I was falling
into a classic psychological trap of arrogance? I wondered if it was
good, if I was observing myself mature. Maybe it was neither good nor
bad. Well, what else is involved in my approach to flying? I am always
willing to learn, no matter what the source. Simulators are always
educational for me, just not usually in an introspective sense. I still
have great respect for the dangers involved with flying. I still think
about "what ifs" and work to maintain my own basic skills while building
more advanced skills.

I'm getting to the end of my line at my current job and won't be flying
on my next tour (the military likes you to be well rounded). It takes
effort for me to remain focused in the cockpit each day. Staying
focused is a conscious choice I make as part of a careful mindset. I
believe I have an overall healthy approach to flying. I believe that
the fact that I have grown to regard certain minor emergencies as
nuisances isn't dangerous, because it complements and is tempered by
other facets of "how" I fly.


I probably thought waaay too much into this... thanks for reading and I
hope you don't mind my rambling :)

[John Doe[_3_]]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> Airman wrote:
>> I sure miss the old days when we had a lively discussion group with
>> some very experienced pilots opining upon matters. Poster were for the
>> most part civil and if you could ask the right questions then listen a
>> guy like Nick Lappos (or many other very experienced pilots) would
>> respond.
>
> Roger, I miss the old days too. But I think there is still a significant
> wealth of knowledge here, just a lot of quiet people (lurkers).
>
> This is a little long and rambling, but I put a lot of thought into how
> aircrew handle emergencies, however great or small the emergency and
> whoever the crew is composed of.
>
> I am presently a military flight instructor and have been for a bit less
> than three years. I would hesitate to call myself "very" experienced.
> Partly by choice and partly by circumstances, I have become specialized in
> and good at instrument flying. Handling emergencies and crew resource
> management both play a big part, and of course both relate to the study of
> human behavior.
>
> Today I was practicing emergencies in the simulator (required periodic
> proficiency practice... say that three times fast!). Now, not because
> I've become "that good" or salty (hardly), but I reacted very calmly to
> one type of malfunction (erroneous engine out indication, think loud alarm
> noise with bright red light and rpm gauge winding down) that usually
> startles most guys. The common reaction is to be startled and quickly
> lower the collective; my hands didn't even move... why? Note that an
> actual engine failure is also accompanied by a physical reaction from the
> aircraft and additional instrument indications. Now, I honestly wasn't
> "spring loaded" in my mind for this particular malfunction, so why did I
> react atypically?
>
> It occurred to me that at my present experience level, I have grown to
> regard many malfunctions and minor emergencies as a nuisance. I wondered
> if this was bad, if this was a warning sign that I was falling into a
> classic psychological trap of arrogance? I wondered if it was good, if I
> was observing myself mature. Maybe it was neither good nor bad. Well,
> what else is involved in my approach to flying? I am always willing to
> learn, no matter what the source. Simulators are always educational for
> me, just not usually in an introspective sense. I still have great
> respect for the dangers involved with flying. I still think about "what
> ifs" and work to maintain my own basic skills while building more advanced
> skills.
>
> I'm getting to the end of my line at my current job and won't be flying on
> my next tour (the military likes you to be well rounded). It takes effort
> for me to remain focused in the cockpit each day. Staying focused is a
> conscious choice I make as part of a careful mindset. I believe I have an
> overall healthy approach to flying. I believe that the fact that I have
> grown to regard certain minor emergencies as nuisances isn't dangerous,
> because it complements and is tempered by other facets of "how" I fly.
>
>
> I probably thought waaay too much into this... thanks for reading and I
> hope you don't mind my rambling :)



Please do ramble... I have been reading the posts on this group for some
time and find it interesting at times. Unfortunately I haven't read the
posts in "the old times" and you could say I'm a frequent lurker :)
I'm currently working as a military instructor too.. but I suppose I haven't
got the hours or the experience like the guys in the USA.
Anyway, to start off a discussion - have been doing the what ifs and there
are several opinions on the particular emergency that I need to solve.
Engine failure during transition to forward flight. Specificaly after the
transverse flow effect (say doing 40 knots, around 50 feet AGL). What to do
with the collective? Do you slam it down to maintain as much RPM as you can
and then quickly pull it up to cushion the landing or is there not enough
time to lower the collective fully? Maybe a newbie question but as you
probably know once you ask the question a dozen theories pop up. Thanks...

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

I'll try one: What are the sources of 2/rev vibration in a two bladed helo?
I know that I don't have any significant 2/rev in hover, but do in forward
flite.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Airman wrote:
> >> I sure miss the old days when we had a lively discussion group with
> >> some very experienced pilots opining upon matters. Poster were for the
> >> most part civil and if you could ask the right questions then listen a
> >> guy like Nick Lappos (or many other very experienced pilots) would
> >> respond.
> >
> > Roger, I miss the old days too. But I think there is still a
significant
> > wealth of knowledge here, just a lot of quiet people (lurkers).
> >
> > This is a little long and rambling, but I put a lot of thought into how
> > aircrew handle emergencies, however great or small the emergency and
> > whoever the crew is composed of.
> >
> > I am presently a military flight instructor and have been for a bit less
> > than three years. I would hesitate to call myself "very" experienced.
> > Partly by choice and partly by circumstances, I have become specialized
in
> > and good at instrument flying. Handling emergencies and crew resource
> > management both play a big part, and of course both relate to the study
of
> > human behavior.
> >
> > Today I was practicing emergencies in the simulator (required periodic
> > proficiency practice... say that three times fast!). Now, not because
> > I've become "that good" or salty (hardly), but I reacted very calmly to
> > one type of malfunction (erroneous engine out indication, think loud
alarm
> > noise with bright red light and rpm gauge winding down) that usually
> > startles most guys. The common reaction is to be startled and quickly
> > lower the collective; my hands didn't even move... why? Note that an
> > actual engine failure is also accompanied by a physical reaction from
the
> > aircraft and additional instrument indications. Now, I honestly wasn't
> > "spring loaded" in my mind for this particular malfunction, so why did I
> > react atypically?
> >
> > It occurred to me that at my present experience level, I have grown to
> > regard many malfunctions and minor emergencies as a nuisance. I
wondered
> > if this was bad, if this was a warning sign that I was falling into a
> > classic psychological trap of arrogance? I wondered if it was good, if
I
> > was observing myself mature. Maybe it was neither good nor bad. Well,
> > what else is involved in my approach to flying? I am always willing to
> > learn, no matter what the source. Simulators are always educational for
> > me, just not usually in an introspective sense. I still have great
> > respect for the dangers involved with flying. I still think about "what
> > ifs" and work to maintain my own basic skills while building more
advanced
> > skills.
> >
> > I'm getting to the end of my line at my current job and won't be flying
on
> > my next tour (the military likes you to be well rounded). It takes
effort
> > for me to remain focused in the cockpit each day. Staying focused is a
> > conscious choice I make as part of a careful mindset. I believe I have
an
> > overall healthy approach to flying. I believe that the fact that I have
> > grown to regard certain minor emergencies as nuisances isn't dangerous,
> > because it complements and is tempered by other facets of "how" I fly.
> >
> >
> > I probably thought waaay too much into this... thanks for reading and I
> > hope you don't mind my rambling :)
>
>
>
> Please do ramble... I have been reading the posts on this group for some
> time and find it interesting at times. Unfortunately I haven't read the
> posts in "the old times" and you could say I'm a frequent lurker :)
> I'm currently working as a military instructor too.. but I suppose I
haven't
> got the hours or the experience like the guys in the USA.
> Anyway, to start off a discussion - have been doing the what ifs and there
> are several opinions on the particular emergency that I need to solve.
> Engine failure during transition to forward flight. Specificaly after the
> transverse flow effect (say doing 40 knots, around 50 feet AGL). What to
do
> with the collective? Do you slam it down to maintain as much RPM as you
can
> and then quickly pull it up to cushion the landing or is there not enough
> time to lower the collective fully? Maybe a newbie question but as you
> probably know once you ask the question a dozen theories pop up. Thanks...
>
>

[boB[_2_]]

John Doe wrote:

>
> Please do ramble... I have been reading the posts on this group for some
> time and find it interesting at times. Unfortunately I haven't read the
> posts in "the old times" and you could say I'm a frequent lurker :)
> I'm currently working as a military instructor too.. but I suppose I haven't
> got the hours or the experience like the guys in the USA.
> Anyway, to start off a discussion - have been doing the what ifs and there
> are several opinions on the particular emergency that I need to solve.
> Engine failure during transition to forward flight. Specificaly after the
> transverse flow effect (say doing 40 knots, around 50 feet AGL). What to do
> with the collective? Do you slam it down to maintain as much RPM as you can
> and then quickly pull it up to cushion the landing or is there not enough
> time to lower the collective fully? Maybe a newbie question but as you
> probably know once you ask the question a dozen theories pop up. Thanks...
>
>

I had the fortune of flying helicopters during Vietnam. Back in the days
where pilots passed along their experiences and how to survive getting
the helicopter shot out from under them. I did not fly in Vietnam. My
orders were to report in Feb 1973. In January they ended the war (so to
speak) and my orders were canceled.

But before I knew my orders were going to be canceled I flew with all
Vets and soaked up everything they would teach me. One maneuver many of
them had experience with was an engine failure at 50 ft AGL at a hover
and moving forward. Both situations required the same response in the
UH-1. The collective was slammed down and without a pause, was raised
quickly to cushion the landing. It was almost a continuous movement,
down and then back up. These were pilots teaching me, not IPs. By the
time I started instructing in 1978 the world of Army Aviation had
changed. Even as an IP I could not teach, or even demonstrate, some of
the maneuvers that combat veterans had learned the hard way.

Some of the other maneuvers I was taught turned out to be a bit on the
extreme side of the coin. An OH58 hovering at 500 feet AGL, engine
failure, lower the collective and apply aft cyclic until backing up a
few knots, then lower the nose to get at least 40 knots and apply
collective to cushion landing directly under the point of the engine
failure. As I remember the minimum rate of descent in an OH58 is 43
knots. I remember at that airspeed there was no deceleration, only a
quick and continuous application of collective to keep the skids from
wrapping around the fuselage.

I was not required to remember how to react to those situations in
Desert Storm. I flew OH58D's and as far as I could tell I was never seen
or shot at.

--

boB
copter.six

[Don W]

Stu,

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> I'll try one: What are the sources of 2/rev vibration in a two bladed helo?
> I know that I don't have any significant 2/rev in hover, but do in forward
> flite.
>

A WAG says that its the due to the blades being
aligned with the airframe twice per revolution (at
0 and 180 degrees). As each advancing blade comes
out of that alignment and hits the airstream I'll
bet it gets a small quiver which you feel as 2/rev
vibration. That would explain why you don't see
it in hover, but do in forward flight.

Right??

Don W.

[boB[_2_]]

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> I'll try one: What are the sources of 2/rev vibration in a two bladed helo?
> I know that I don't have any significant 2/rev in hover, but do in forward
> flite.
>


Stuart, you are definitely more current than I on blade tracking so let
me try to remember. A 1 or 2 per rev vibration which is constant
throughout the rpm range should require PC link adjustments. I hope I
remember, I did a bunch of these, a vibration which increases as RPM is
increased should require a trim tab adjustment. A flag is the easiest
way to adjust the blade track although if you have a vibrex you can get
it fine tuned. Tomorrow I'll go find my -20s for the OH58, UH1 and AH1
and see if my memory is bad.

--

boB
copter.six

P
U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas
5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Don: I think that that may be one of the sources for tailbooms like the
206s, Hueys etc. but the Bell 47 and my Baby Belle has an open tail boom so
I'm not sure that there is any interaction there. I have done some math and
it shows there is a velocity term that occurs in forward flite that creates
both a lifting and drag force that varies at twice the rotation rate.
However I'm thinking that there must be more than just these?

--
Kathy Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"Don W" > wrote in message
et...
> Stu,
>
> Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> > I'll try one: What are the sources of 2/rev vibration in a two bladed
helo?
> > I know that I don't have any significant 2/rev in hover, but do in
forward
> > flite.
> >
>
> A WAG says that its the due to the blades being
> aligned with the airframe twice per revolution (at
> 0 and 180 degrees). As each advancing blade comes
> out of that alignment and hits the airstream I'll
> bet it gets a small quiver which you feel as 2/rev
> vibration. That would explain why you don't see
> it in hover, but do in forward flight.
>
> Right??
>
> Don W.
>

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

boB. I believe that the 1/rev vertical is due to tracking, and on my ship,
I either stick track for a ground check or use tip lites. Note us
experimental guys have a blade tip mounted LED two different colors, and we
can use these tip lites in forward flite. One person tracking is possible.
I also check the vertical vibration by using an accelerometer mounted down
by the passengers pedals. You are right. My initial tracking adjustments
are done with the pitch links and if I needed more in forward flight, I
would have to put some trim tabs on the blades. So far my blades run good
in forward flite, that is to say I don't have a climbing or diving blade.
My ship runs smooth in the vertical 1/rev down in the 0.1ips regions all the
way to 90mph. Even when I do vertical 2/rev, measuring in the same spot, I
don't get any significant readings. However measuring the horizontal 2/rev
just below the swash plate, I can get some significant readings when my fuel
level gets below 1/2 tank and I can feel it in the seat and controls. It
seems that all of the Baby Belles exhibit this phenomena to some extent.
Measurements on the Rotorway Exec showed similar readings but for some
reason their vibrations don't enter the cockpit.
I'm curious as to the sources of 2/rev vibrations. The two mentioned with
Don W I know about and not a lot can be done to either of these two sources,
but are there more sources?

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"boB" > wrote in message
...
> Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> > I'll try one: What are the sources of 2/rev vibration in a two bladed
helo?
> > I know that I don't have any significant 2/rev in hover, but do in
forward
> > flite.
> >
>
>
> Stuart, you are definitely more current than I on blade tracking so let
> me try to remember. A 1 or 2 per rev vibration which is constant
> throughout the rpm range should require PC link adjustments. I hope I
> remember, I did a bunch of these, a vibration which increases as RPM is
> increased should require a trim tab adjustment. A flag is the easiest
> way to adjust the blade track although if you have a vibrex you can get
> it fine tuned. Tomorrow I'll go find my -20s for the OH58, UH1 and AH1
> and see if my memory is bad.
>
> --
>
> boB
> copter.six
>
> P
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas
> 5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)

[boB[_2_]]

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> boB. I believe that the 1/rev vertical is due to tracking, and on my ship,
> I either stick track for a ground check or use tip lites. Note us
> experimental guys have a blade tip mounted LED two different colors, and we
> can use these tip lites in forward flite. One person tracking is possible.



I had forgotten tip lights. On the OH-6 we had cat-eyes but all white
reflectors with a different slash in each reflector (- | and /). I
tried those (2 of them) on an OH58 but didn't have a bright enough
light. I had to do the tracking after dusk.



> I also check the vertical vibration by using an accelerometer mounted down
> by the passengers pedals.

>
> Even when I do vertical 2/rev, measuring in the same spot, I
> don't get any significant readings. However measuring the horizontal 2/rev
> just below the swash plate, I can get some significant readings when my fuel
> level gets below 1/2 tank and I can feel it in the seat and controls. It
> seems that all of the Baby Belles exhibit this phenomena to some extent.
> Measurements on the Rotorway Exec showed similar readings but for some
> reason their vibrations don't enter the cockpit.
> I'm curious as to the sources of 2/rev vibrations. The two mentioned with
> Don W I know about and not a lot can be done to either of these two sources,
> but are there more sources?
>

My experience is limited at best with only the aircraft I flew in the
Army. But I'm hoping someday to be back in the air and I'm interested in
what comes from this discussion.

One of the aircraft I had high on my list was the Mini 500. Thanks to
this newsgroup I've lined through that one.


--

boB
copter.six


U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas
5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)

[JohnO]

boB wrote:
> Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
> > boB. I believe that the 1/rev vertical is due to tracking, and on my ship,
> > I either stick track for a ground check or use tip lites. Note us
> > experimental guys have a blade tip mounted LED two different colors, and we
> > can use these tip lites in forward flite. One person tracking is possible.
>
>
>
> I had forgotten tip lights. On the OH-6 we had cat-eyes but all white
> reflectors with a different slash in each reflector (- | and /). I
> tried those (2 of them) on an OH58 but didn't have a bright enough
> light. I had to do the tracking after dusk.
>
>
>
> > I also check the vertical vibration by using an accelerometer mounted down
> > by the passengers pedals.
>
> >
> > Even when I do vertical 2/rev, measuring in the same spot, I
> > don't get any significant readings. However measuring the horizontal 2/rev
> > just below the swash plate, I can get some significant readings when my fuel
> > level gets below 1/2 tank and I can feel it in the seat and controls. It
> > seems that all of the Baby Belles exhibit this phenomena to some extent.
> > Measurements on the Rotorway Exec showed similar readings but for some
> > reason their vibrations don't enter the cockpit.
> > I'm curious as to the sources of 2/rev vibrations. The two mentioned with
> > Don W I know about and not a lot can be done to either of these two sources,
> > but are there more sources?
> >
>
> My experience is limited at best with only the aircraft I flew in the
> Army. But I'm hoping someday to be back in the air and I'm interested in
> what comes from this discussion.
>
> One of the aircraft I had high on my list was the Mini 500. Thanks to
> this newsgroup I've lined through that one.
>

Write 'helicycle' instead.

[boB[_2_]]

JohnO wrote:

>> One of the aircraft I had high on my list was the Mini 500. Thanks to
>> this newsgroup I've lined through that one.
>>
>
> Write 'helicycle' instead.
>

There are several videos of the helicycle flying and it looks very good.
Does anyone have any experience with the ultra sport helicopters?

http://www.ultrasport.rotor.com/ultrasport496.htm

or the Mosquito single place ultralight helicopter and the AirScooter?

--

boB
copter.six

[JohnO]

boB wrote:
> JohnO wrote:
>
> >> One of the aircraft I had high on my list was the Mini 500. Thanks to
> >> this newsgroup I've lined through that one.
> >>
> >
> > Write 'helicycle' instead.
> >
>
> There are several videos of the helicycle flying and it looks very good.
> Does anyone have any experience with the ultra sport helicopters?
>
> http://www.ultrasport.rotor.com/ultrasport496.htm

The floats option is cool. However the 2 stroke vs gas turbine
comparison?
>
> or the Mosquito single place ultralight helicopter and the AirScooter?
>
> --
>
> boB
> copter.six

[John Doe[_3_]]

"boB" > wrote in message
...

> I had the fortune of flying helicopters during Vietnam. Back in the days
> where pilots passed along their experiences and how to survive getting the
> helicopter shot out from under them. I did not fly in Vietnam. My orders
> were to report in Feb 1973. In January they ended the war (so to speak)
> and my orders were canceled.
>
> But before I knew my orders were going to be canceled I flew with all Vets
> and soaked up everything they would teach me. One maneuver many of them
> had experience with was an engine failure at 50 ft AGL at a hover and
> moving forward. Both situations required the same response in the UH-1.
> The collective was slammed down and without a pause, was raised quickly to
> cushion the landing. It was almost a continuous movement, down and then
> back up. These were pilots teaching me, not IPs. By the time I started
> instructing in 1978 the world of Army Aviation had changed. Even as an IP
> I could not teach, or even demonstrate, some of the maneuvers that combat
> veterans had learned the hard way.
>
> Some of the other maneuvers I was taught turned out to be a bit on the
> extreme side of the coin. An OH58 hovering at 500 feet AGL, engine
> failure, lower the collective and apply aft cyclic until backing up a few
> knots, then lower the nose to get at least 40 knots and apply collective
> to cushion landing directly under the point of the engine failure. As I
> remember the minimum rate of descent in an OH58 is 43 knots. I remember at
> that airspeed there was no deceleration, only a quick and continuous
> application of collective to keep the skids from wrapping around the
> fuselage.
>
> I was not required to remember how to react to those situations in Desert
> Storm. I flew OH58D's and as far as I could tell I was never seen or shot
> at.
>
> --
>
> boB
> copter.six


Thanks a lot boB... It means a world of difference having someone with real
life (or even better - combat) experience giving their opinion... Sadly I
have never done anything but power recovery autos and I'm currently passing
through 550 hours (Bell206B) - so any answer I give to my students is purely
theoretical. And sometimes it's hard to be convincing :) Not to mention the
discussions that go on once the subject is open between my coworkers:)
If you or anyone else has any info on theese "nonstandard" procedures I'd be
happy to hear them out...

[boB[_2_]]

John Doe wrote:

>
>
> Thanks a lot boB... It means a world of difference having someone with real
> life (or even better - combat) experience giving their opinion... Sadly I
> have never done anything but power recovery autos and I'm currently passing
> through 550 hours (Bell206B) - so any answer I give to my students is purely
> theoretical. And sometimes it's hard to be convincing :) Not to mention the
> discussions that go on once the subject is open between my coworkers:)
> If you or anyone else has any info on theese "nonstandard" procedures I'd be
> happy to hear them out...
>
>

I agree, power recovery autos suck but if that's all that's allowed you
can still try to give the student some different situations so when the
engine actually quits they have a lot of practice completing the
immediate procedures and once in a controlled descent they will walk
away from the resulting landing.

Please take what I say with a grain of salt. I can only talk about what
my experiences were and I don't want to convey that what I did was the
cut and dried solution. I have no idea what an R22 would do with an
engine failure at 50 feet. In 25 years the only actual engine failure I
had was in an OH-13 (Bell 46). Luckily I was a student in flight school
flying instrument procedures. That was back in the days of the scruffy
old IP's. As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft kind of jerked
a little bit left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The
aircraft jerked again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was
yelling, the aircraft got strangely quiet. My reaction was to go
through the emergency procedure for engine failure IMC. I barely got the
collective down before the IP, all assholes and elbows, grabbed the
controls and we set down nicely in a peanut field there in Alabama. So
my only engine failure in 25 years consisted of me watching my IP
complete a "full stop" autorotation. But I never forgot what it sounded
like when the engine decided to quit.




--

boB
copter.six

[boB[_2_]]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

> While I've never experienced a 2-stroke engine failure in 20+ years of
> dirt-bike riding, a 2-stroke in a helicopter makes me nervous...
>
> It's a cool looking ship, but it looks as if there's been no updates
> to the site since 2004. And how much does the thing cost??
>
>

I don't know. It depresses me to actually look for a price. :)

I posted here once about the RAF2000 Gyro because what I'd like is a 2
passenger cross country vehicle and I wasn't really thinking
"helicopter" Someone here cautioned me away from that one too.

--

boB
copter.six

[Steve R]

"boB" > wrote in message
...
>
> Please take what I say with a grain of salt. I can only talk about what my
> experiences were and I don't want to convey that what I did was the cut
> and dried solution. I have no idea what an R22 would do with an engine
> failure at 50 feet. In 25 years the only actual engine failure I had was
> in an OH-13 (Bell 46). Luckily I was a student in flight school flying
> instrument procedures. That was back in the days of the scruffy old IP's.
> As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft kind of jerked a little bit
> left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The aircraft jerked
> again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was yelling, the
> aircraft got strangely quiet. My reaction was to go through the emergency
> procedure for engine failure IMC. I barely got the collective down before
> the IP, all assholes and elbows, grabbed the controls and we set down
> nicely in a peanut field there in Alabama. So my only engine failure in
> 25 years consisted of me watching my IP complete a "full stop"
> autorotation. But I never forgot what it sounded like when the engine
> decided to quit.
>
>
> boB
> copter.six

Cool story boB. Definitely a time when silence is "not" golden! I'd love
to see the look on the IP's face! ;-)

Steve R.

[Steve R]

"boB" > wrote in message
...
> The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
>
>> While I've never experienced a 2-stroke engine failure in 20+ years of
>> dirt-bike riding, a 2-stroke in a helicopter makes me nervous...
>>
>> It's a cool looking ship, but it looks as if there's been no updates
>> to the site since 2004. And how much does the thing cost??
>>
>>
>
> I don't know. It depresses me to actually look for a price. :)
>
> I posted here once about the RAF2000 Gyro because what I'd like is a 2
> passenger cross country vehicle and I wasn't really thinking "helicopter"
> Someone here cautioned me away from that one too.
>
> --
>
> boB
> copter.six

There are variations on the RAF2000 that correct the acknowledged
deficiencies of the orginal aircraft.

Check out http://www.americanautogyro.com/.

FWIW! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Don W]

boB wrote:
> As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft
kind of jerked
> a little bit left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The
> aircraft jerked again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was
> yelling, the aircraft got strangely quiet.

I've never experienced a real power failure in a
helicopter, but I've heard that your first clue
even before it gets quiet is you are suddenly
flying "sideways"....

Don W.

[John Doe[_3_]]

"Don W" > wrote in message
t...
>
> boB wrote:
> > As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft
> kind of jerked
>> a little bit left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The
>> aircraft jerked again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was
>> yelling, the aircraft got strangely quiet.
>
> I've never experienced a real power failure in a helicopter, but I've
> heard that your first clue even before it gets quiet is you are suddenly
> flying "sideways"....
>
> Don W.
>

Well I thing that is a good record - once in 25 years :) The only real scare
I got was during a test flight... we were up somewhere around 7000 feet and
started entering the autorotation.. when the test pilot rolled the power
down to flight idle the engine out light and alarm went off.. for no reason
whatsoever..
I remember just staring at the N1 gauhe and thinking why isn't it it at 0%..
stupid of me I didn't even reach for the collective...

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

boB: Believe it or not, whilst I was down in Florida for a ride in the
Hummingbird, I stopped by the Mosquito guy down there for some photos.
While I was there he decided to fly his little bird so I stuck around to get
some shots. He circled the field a few times and buzzed us once and then
landed, got out and came over to me and said: " You want to fly it?" I
thought he was crazy. Let some yahoo get in a single seat helicopter that
weighed less than 300 # and go for a ride? He said take it around, I think
you can handle it. I got in the thing and the check out was "Engine 6,000,
EGT lesst than 1600 and he backed away. Knowing I was in a very light
helicopter and expecting the thing to be at least twitchy, I ran it up, felt
with the pedals to get the nose pointed and began to slowly ease the
collective up. The thing wanted to go sideways so I set it down and made a
small correction to the cyclic and again raised the collective. This time
the little bugger came up to 3' and just set there. Stable as a Huey. Less
than 15 sec later I was hover taxiing the thing all over the field. Set it
down, pick it up not problem. No nose wander, no sideways movement just a
very steady hovering little bugger. The blades were not symmetrical so I
expected to feel some varying collective pressure as the angle of attack
changed. I couldn't feel any change. I was impressed. However, with only
15 minutes of hovering about I decided not to put it in the air. Later
discussions with the owner showed that he had never had a lesson in any
helicopter. He had about 15 hrs TT at that time and was impressive in his
operation of the thing. Then I learned that there were two other guys
flying these buggers that had self taught with no prior helicopter
experience. Now it seems that some of them have taken some R-22 lessons and
found that the R-22 is much harder to handle.
I'm a 2 stroke phobic from my motorcycle racing days, but since they went to
the ceramic coated pistons, the Mosquito hasn't had any reported piston
problems. They are also working on using a twin cyl, turbo charged injected
4 stroke. I wouldn't mind having one with the 4 stroke.
BTW the Airscooter has no collective control. Autorotations are not
possible. We've been around the Ultrasports a bit but have no hands on
experience with them. At a recent event there were two flying quite a bit.
They did have to re-jet for the altitude.


--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478 ph
(760) 408-9747 publication cell
"boB" > wrote in message
...
> JohnO wrote:
>
>>> One of the aircraft I had high on my list was the Mini 500. Thanks to
>>> this newsgroup I've lined through that one.
>>>
>>
>> Write 'helicycle' instead.
>>
>
> There are several videos of the helicycle flying and it looks very good.
> Does anyone have any experience with the ultra sport helicopters?
>
> http://www.ultrasport.rotor.com/ultrasport496.htm
>
> or the Mosquito single place ultralight helicopter and the AirScooter?
>
> --
>
> boB
> copter.six

[Airman]

Dear John Doe:

Interesting question and the answer lies with a great instructor. Go
fly with Chin Tu at Civic Helicopters in Carlsbad, CA or Western
Operations in Rialto, CA. I am sure there are other places with
qualified instructors (not some kid building time). I have trained
with both and I found on a MD500 down collective, brief tug back cyclic
(to get air up through rotor)forward cyclic, pull collective. Go fly
and train with the best you can find and they will teach you.

Stay safe,
Roger


On Dec 13 2006, 11:43 am, "John Doe" > wrote:
> "Jim Carriere" > wrote in et...
>
>
>
> > Airman wrote:
> >> I sure miss the old days when we had a lively discussion group with
> >> some very experienced pilots opining upon matters. Poster were for the
> >> most part civil and if you could ask the right questions then listen a
> >> guy like Nick Lappos (or many other very experienced pilots) would
> >> respond.
>
> > Roger, I miss the old days too. But I think there is still a significant
> > wealth of knowledge here, just a lot of quiet people (lurkers).
>
> > This is a little long and rambling, but I put a lot of thought into how
> > aircrew handle emergencies, however great or small the emergency and
> > whoever the crew is composed of.
>
> > I am presently a military flight instructor and have been for a bit less
> > than three years. I would hesitate to call myself "very" experienced.
> > Partly by choice and partly by circumstances, I have become specialized in
> > and good at instrument flying. Handling emergencies and crew resource
> > management both play a big part, and of course both relate to the study of
> > human behavior.
>
> > Today I was practicing emergencies in the simulator (required periodic
> > proficiency practice... say that three times fast!). Now, not because
> > I've become "that good" or salty (hardly), but I reacted very calmly to
> > one type of malfunction (erroneous engine out indication, think loud alarm
> > noise with bright red light and rpm gauge winding down) that usually
> > startles most guys. The common reaction is to be startled and quickly
> > lower the collective; my hands didn't even move... why? Note that an
> > actual engine failure is also accompanied by a physical reaction from the
> > aircraft and additional instrument indications. Now, I honestly wasn't
> > "spring loaded" in my mind for this particular malfunction, so why did I
> > react atypically?
>
> > It occurred to me that at my present experience level, I have grown to
> > regard many malfunctions and minor emergencies as a nuisance. I wondered
> > if this was bad, if this was a warning sign that I was falling into a
> > classic psychological trap of arrogance? I wondered if it was good, if I
> > was observing myself mature. Maybe it was neither good nor bad. Well,
> > what else is involved in my approach to flying? I am always willing to
> > learn, no matter what the source. Simulators are always educational for
> > me, just not usually in an introspective sense. I still have great
> > respect for the dangers involved with flying. I still think about "what
> > ifs" and work to maintain my own basic skills while building more advanced
> > skills.
>
> > I'm getting to the end of my line at my current job and won't be flying on
> > my next tour (the military likes you to be well rounded). It takes effort
> > for me to remain focused in the cockpit each day. Staying focused is a
> > conscious choice I make as part of a careful mindset. I believe I have an
> > overall healthy approach to flying. I believe that the fact that I have
> > grown to regard certain minor emergencies as nuisances isn't dangerous,
> > because it complements and is tempered by other facets of "how" I fly.
>
> > I probably thought waaay too much into this... thanks for reading and I
> > hope you don't mind my rambling :)Please do ramble... I have been reading the posts on this group for some
> time and find it interesting at times. Unfortunately I haven't read the
> posts in "the old times" and you could say I'm a frequent lurker :)
> I'm currently working as a military instructor too.. but I suppose I haven't
> got the hours or the experience like the guys in the USA.
> Anyway, to start off a discussion - have been doing the what ifs and there
> are several opinions on the particular emergency that I need to solve.
> Engine failure during transition to forward flight. Specificaly after the
> transverse flow effect (say doing 40 knots, around 50 feet AGL). What to do
> with the collective? Do you slam it down to maintain as much RPM as you can
> and then quickly pull it up to cushion the landing or is there not enough
> time to lower the collective fully? Maybe a newbie question but as you
> probably know once you ask the question a dozen theories pop up. Thanks...

[Don W]

Airman wrote:
> Dear John Doe:
>
> Interesting question and the answer lies with a great instructor. Go
> fly with Chin Tu at Civic Helicopters in Carlsbad, CA or Western
> Operations in Rialto, CA. I am sure there are other places with
> qualified instructors (not some kid building time).

Actually, this is part of the problem with the way
aviation training is done today. Many (maybe
most) of the instructors are kids building time
with very little experience outside of flight
instruction. I don't know all of the reasons for
this, but I have sure observed it.

Don W.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

John Doe et al;
Happy New Year and I wish a safe one for all of you. To respond to your
specific question about an engine failure, in many years of crop
spraying with helicopters, I often wondered how to respond to an engine
failure at low level and have had opportunity to challenge my logic at
least two or three times! I was pleased to note in conversation with
other pilots who do similar operations, they had come up with the same
technique. We simply call it the "Double Pump".
On recognition of either an engine failure or an impending one, we pull
the collective and do a collective/cyclic climb to avoid a tail strike,
followed very quickly with down collective to avoid losing turns whcih
puts us in a flare attitude followed by a cyclic pushover and pulling
pitch to cushion the touchdown.
I experienced an engine failure at night while spraying cotton and had
an altitude of roughly 5' above the crop with about 50kts IAS. I did
the above manuever and just as I was trying to flare, the machine
turned about 90deg as I was descending for landing. It all worked out
as if I had planned it. The spray booms were aligned with the rows and
I didn't knock off a single nozzle. The tail rotor got a little green
on it but it too was just above the crop when I touched down cross row
to the irrigation lines. It was nearly a perfect landing to salvage
pilot error from running out of fuel in a strange machine. This was in
a Bell 47 at least 15 years ago. Fortunately I had figured out that
maneuver five years earlier and had used it twice prior to trying it at
night!! I retired from crop dusting/spraying this summer after 40 years
of low/slow back'n forth.
Cheers
Ol Shy & Bashful
John Doe wrote:
> "Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Airman wrote:
> >> I sure miss the old days when we had a lively discussion group with
> >> some very experienced pilots opining upon matters. Poster were for the
> >> most part civil and if you could ask the right questions then listen a
> >> guy like Nick Lappos (or many other very experienced pilots) would
> >> respond.
> >
> > Roger, I miss the old days too. But I think there is still a significant
> > wealth of knowledge here, just a lot of quiet people (lurkers).
> >
> > This is a little long and rambling, but I put a lot of thought into how
> > aircrew handle emergencies, however great or small the emergency and
> > whoever the crew is composed of.
> >
> > I am presently a military flight instructor and have been for a bit less
> > than three years. I would hesitate to call myself "very" experienced.
> > Partly by choice and partly by circumstances, I have become specialized in
> > and good at instrument flying. Handling emergencies and crew resource
> > management both play a big part, and of course both relate to the study of
> > human behavior.
> >
> > Today I was practicing emergencies in the simulator (required periodic
> > proficiency practice... say that three times fast!). Now, not because
> > I've become "that good" or salty (hardly), but I reacted very calmly to
> > one type of malfunction (erroneous engine out indication, think loud alarm
> > noise with bright red light and rpm gauge winding down) that usually
> > startles most guys. The common reaction is to be startled and quickly
> > lower the collective; my hands didn't even move... why? Note that an
> > actual engine failure is also accompanied by a physical reaction from the
> > aircraft and additional instrument indications. Now, I honestly wasn't
> > "spring loaded" in my mind for this particular malfunction, so why did I
> > react atypically?
> >
> > It occurred to me that at my present experience level, I have grown to
> > regard many malfunctions and minor emergencies as a nuisance. I wondered
> > if this was bad, if this was a warning sign that I was falling into a
> > classic psychological trap of arrogance? I wondered if it was good, if I
> > was observing myself mature. Maybe it was neither good nor bad. Well,
> > what else is involved in my approach to flying? I am always willing to
> > learn, no matter what the source. Simulators are always educational for
> > me, just not usually in an introspective sense. I still have great
> > respect for the dangers involved with flying. I still think about "what
> > ifs" and work to maintain my own basic skills while building more advanced
> > skills.
> >
> > I'm getting to the end of my line at my current job and won't be flying on
> > my next tour (the military likes you to be well rounded). It takes effort
> > for me to remain focused in the cockpit each day. Staying focused is a
> > conscious choice I make as part of a careful mindset. I believe I have an
> > overall healthy approach to flying. I believe that the fact that I have
> > grown to regard certain minor emergencies as nuisances isn't dangerous,
> > because it complements and is tempered by other facets of "how" I fly.
> >
> >
> > I probably thought waaay too much into this... thanks for reading and I
> > hope you don't mind my rambling :)
>
>
>
> Please do ramble... I have been reading the posts on this group for some
> time and find it interesting at times. Unfortunately I haven't read the
> posts in "the old times" and you could say I'm a frequent lurker :)
> I'm currently working as a military instructor too.. but I suppose I haven't
> got the hours or the experience like the guys in the USA.
> Anyway, to start off a discussion - have been doing the what ifs and there
> are several opinions on the particular emergency that I need to solve.
> Engine failure during transition to forward flight. Specificaly after the
> transverse flow effect (say doing 40 knots, around 50 feet AGL). What to do
> with the collective? Do you slam it down to maintain as much RPM as you can
> and then quickly pull it up to cushion the landing or is there not enough
> time to lower the collective fully? Maybe a newbie question but as you
> probably know once you ask the question a dozen theories pop up. Thanks...