After an annual?

[Paul Tomblin]

When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
cushion if something goes wrong.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and Tanuki

[Robert M. Gary]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.

I decowl it and do a really, really super preflight check. Everything
under the cowl area should be gone over as if your life dependend on
it. Most of the major issues I've had in flight have been right after
annual. Also, its not unusual for the battery to be dead after annual.
Most shops are thoughtful enough to charge the battery before you
arrive but sometimes they forget. I certainly would not make this an
IFR or night flight.
Also, triple check the logs that the annual was signed off. Twice I
picked up a plane after annual only to notice the IA forgot to log the
annual (making my flight illegal).

-Robert

[Peter R.]

Paul Tomblin > wrote:

> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check?

Not meaning to be too pedantic, Paul, but Batavia to Rochester is about a
25 minute *drive*, as it is only 21 nautical miles airport to airport. :)

With the prevailing winds out of the west along that route, I would think
it more in the order of a six to ten minute flight.

Take a screwdriver on your preflight and give each access panel screw a
quick check. I have discovered access panels with screws that were quite
loose, as if the mechanic or assistant finger-tightened them with the
intent of revisiting them with a screwdriver at a later, non-existent time.



--
Peter

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Peter R." > said:
>Paul Tomblin > wrote:
>> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
>> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check?
>
>Not meaning to be too pedantic, Paul, but Batavia to Rochester is about a
>25 minute *drive*, as it is only 21 nautical miles airport to airport. :)
>
>With the prevailing winds out of the west along that route, I would think
>it more in the order of a six to ten minute flight.

Not the way Rochester vectors me around. I swear I overflew Canadaugua
and Penn Yann while on vectors today.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
You cannot run Windows innocently. Guilt of aiding & abetting, at
the very least, is automatic.
-- David P. Murphy

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>annual. Also, its not unusual for the battery to be dead after annual.

Oh, you got that one right. I got half a blade before it totally died.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
We don't need a fountain of youth. We need a fountain of smart.
-- Bill Mattocks's .sig

[Peter R.]

Paul Tomblin > wrote:

> Not the way Rochester vectors me around. I swear I overflew Canadaugua
> and Penn Yann while on vectors today.

LOL! Fair enough.

--
Peter

[[email protected][_1_]]

I guess one special thing I did after last annual, was have the guy who
did the annual fly the plane first. Actually it was his preference to
check everything out. After each oil change or engine maintenance, I do
a full preflight & runup, followed by a high speed taxi test. Then I
taxi back and shut down to let the cowling cool down enough so I can
open it to see if anything is leaking. Then I'll give it a normal
preflight before flying it.

Eric Bartsch
1959 Pilatus P-3 A-848
http://www.hometown.aol.com/bartscher/P3A848.html


On Dec 18, 11:10 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin /

[BT]

- Log Books are in order, every thing signed off, transponder checks signed
off if needed.
- A very through preflight, touch everything, is the seat loose in the
tracks? I once had a back seat come loose, it was not reinstalled properly.
- Check all inspectin panels, internal and external, touch everything
- Under the cowl, check all spark plugs and leads, fan belt, alternator
wires
- Check oil filter is secured (safety wire), oil filler cap and oil level
- Check all fuel drains, make sure tanks are filled to the level you want.
- Tires should have been removed to grease the bearings, check for proper
tightness and cotter pins.
- Engine runup, Static RPM check (do you know how to do a static check and
what your numbers are?)
- Ground VOR Check?
- Taxi back, shut it down and do another full preflight, this time checking
for every thing and any thing that leaks.
- Only fly it back in DAY VFR conditions and SOLO.

BT

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
> There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
> They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
> the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and
> Tanuki

[Roy Smith]

In article >, "BT" >
wrote:

> - Log Books are in order, every thing signed off, transponder checks signed
> off if needed.
> - A very through preflight, touch everything, is the seat loose in the
> tracks? I once had a back seat come loose, it was not reinstalled properly.
> - Check all inspectin panels, internal and external, touch everything
> - Under the cowl, check all spark plugs and leads, fan belt, alternator
> wires
> - Check oil filter is secured (safety wire), oil filler cap and oil level
> - Check all fuel drains, make sure tanks are filled to the level you want.
> - Tires should have been removed to grease the bearings, check for proper
> tightness and cotter pins.
> - Engine runup, Static RPM check (do you know how to do a static check and
> what your numbers are?)
> - Ground VOR Check?
> - Taxi back, shut it down and do another full preflight, this time checking
> for every thing and any thing that leaks.
> - Only fly it back in DAY VFR conditions and SOLO.
>
> BT
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> > you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> > flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> > Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> > up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> > cushion if something goes wrong.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
> > There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
> > They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
> > the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and
> > Tanuki

Check all the controls are rigged right. Does left deflection on the yoke
really give you left deflection on the ailerons? Ditto for elevator and
rudder.

I once picked up an Archer that had the electric trim worked on. I ran the
trim all the way to one end with the electric thumb switch, and when it
reached the end it made a big "CLUNK" noise and wouldn't budge from that
position. I'm glad I caught that on the ground.

I once picked up a plane from an annual and flew it back home in night IMC.
All I can say about that one is that we learn from our mistakes.

Check under the cowling. One guy in my club got a really nice Snap-On
wrench by doing a good preflight on a plane which had been flown home from
an annual the day before.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.

one of the benefits on an owner-assisted annual is being involved in
the close-out of actions from the annual.

btw - following the installation of an overhauled engine, we (the A&P and I)
did the initial engine check-out flying a racetrack pattern at 2000' above
the airport. We simply told the tower that we wanted to orbit the field for
an engine test.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Ron Natalie]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.
>

If you have a Navion, make sure the gear handle is down.

I check over the plane looking especially for inspection
panels and hoses not reinstalled. A do a brief test
flight (vicinity of the airport) and open it up again looking for leaks.

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> > When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> > you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> > flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> > Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> > up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> > cushion if something goes wrong.
>
> one of the benefits on an owner-assisted annual is being involved in
> the close-out of actions from the annual.
>
> btw - following the installation of an overhauled engine, we (the A&P and I)
> did the initial engine check-out flying a racetrack pattern at 2000' above
> the airport. We simply told the tower that we wanted to orbit the field for
> an engine test.

Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
the break in?

-Robert

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> > one of the benefits on an owner-assisted annual is being involved in
> > the close-out of actions from the annual.
> >
> > btw - following the installation of an overhauled engine, we (the A&P and I)
> > did the initial engine check-out flying a racetrack pattern at 2000' above
> > the airport. We simply told the tower that we wanted to orbit the field for
> > an engine test.
>
> Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
> allowed)?

Not that I've heard of.

> Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
> the break in?

No

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article om>,
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > > one of the benefits on an owner-assisted annual is being involved in
> > > the close-out of actions from the annual.
> > >
> > > btw - following the installation of an overhauled engine, we (the A&P and I)
> > > did the initial engine check-out flying a racetrack pattern at 2000' above
> > > the airport. We simply told the tower that we wanted to orbit the field for
> > > an engine test.
> >
> > Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
> > allowed)?
>
> Not that I've heard of.

Section 91.407: Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance,
rebuilding, or alteration.
(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an
aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that
may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or
substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately
rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or
alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 19 Dec 2006 16:03:23 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

snip

>Section 91.407: Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance,
>rebuilding, or alteration.
>(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an
>aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that
>may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or
>substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately
>rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
>aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or
>alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

Anything other than a field overhaul will have been tested for static
horsepower and "run-in" in a test cell according to the mfg's
instructions.

Other than major airframe repairs after a wreck (and certain
autoflight system repairs), I have never signed off/or required a test
flight.

Personally, I don't think a brand spanking new engine-out landing will
be "appreciably changed" from a whipped 20something year-old
engine-out landing...

TC

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> > > Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
> > > allowed)?
> >
> > Not that I've heard of.
>
> Section 91.407: Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance,
> rebuilding, or alteration.
> (b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an
> aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that
> may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or
> substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately
> rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
> aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or
> alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

How would an engine overhaul have changed the aircraft's flight characteristics?

Seriously, I really don't see how 91.407 requires a flight test. Heck, even the
STC to install the 160hp engine in my cherokee didn't require a flight test.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ]
> Posted At: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:03 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: After an annual?
> Subject: Re: After an annual?
>
> On 19 Dec 2006 16:03:23 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >Section 91.407: Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance,
> >rebuilding, or alteration.
> >(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an
> >aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner
that
> >may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or
> >substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately
> >rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
> >aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or
> >alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.
>
> Anything other than a field overhaul will have been tested for static
> horsepower and "run-in" in a test cell according to the mfg's
> instructions.
>
> Other than major airframe repairs after a wreck (and certain
> autoflight system repairs), I have never signed off/or required a test
> flight.
>
> Personally, I don't think a brand spanking new engine-out landing will
> be "appreciably changed" from a whipped 20something year-old
> engine-out landing...
>
> TC

I haven't seen it done either, but what about the phrase "...may have
appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected
its operation in flight"? That could easily mean an annual inspection
where access panels and floor boards were removed or where control
cables were disconnected and lubed, or any other type maintenance that
might impact safety of flight. I think this is a really good question
that has been raised and I would expect the attorneys to think likewise.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Noel ]
> Posted At: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:48 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: After an annual?
> Subject: Re: After an annual?
>
> In article om>,
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
....
>
> Seriously, I really don't see how 91.407 requires a flight test.
Heck,
> even the
> STC to install the 160hp engine in my cherokee didn't require a flight
> test.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate

Why would the STC have to require a flight check is one was required by
FAR? I can easily see how an engine overhaul or upgrade (per STC) could
change flight characteristics.

[[email protected][_1_]]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter" >
wrote:

snip

>I haven't seen it done either, but what about the phrase "...may have
>appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected
>its operation in flight"? That could easily mean an annual inspection
>where access panels and floor boards were removed or where control
>cables were disconnected and lubed, or any other type maintenance that
>might impact safety of flight. I think this is a really good question
>that has been raised and I would expect the attorneys to think likewise.
>

time out. please stop.

I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
to approval for return to service.

BTW, if it isn't written into the logbooks as such, technically, it
didn't happen.

With regard to certain specific airframe maintenance, certain specific
auto-flight and stall warning systems, the mfg's AMM has specific
requirements for performing a "test flight".

TC

P.S. FWIW, who do you really think returns a type-certificated
aircraft to service after inspection or maintenance, thus implying
approval of it's "airworthiness"?

[Bob Noel]

In article <000301c723dd$b2e364e0$e302a8c0@omnibook6100>,
"Jim Carter" > wrote:

> Why would the STC have to require a flight check is one was required by
> FAR? I can easily see how an engine overhaul or upgrade (per STC) could
> change flight characteristics.

For the same reason the STC included instructions to file a 337?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article om>,
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>> > Section 91.407: Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance,
> > rebuilding, or alteration.
> > (b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an
> > aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that
> > may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or
> > substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately
> > rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
> > aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or
> > alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.
>
> How would an engine overhaul have changed the aircraft's flight characteristics?

" or substantially affected its operation in flight "

> Seriously, I really don't see how 91.407 requires a flight test. Heck, even the
> STC to install the 160hp engine in my cherokee didn't require a flight test.

"characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight
until an appropriately
rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the
aircraft"

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter" >
> wrote:
> I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
> States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
> after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
> to approval for return to service.

Nor do they eat Fruit Loops first, but let's get back to the
discussion. We're talking about taking and engine out, taking all the
little pieces of the engine off, putting it all back together and then
putting it on the airplane. Certainly not "general 'maintenance'".

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter" >
> wrote:
> I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
> States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
> after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
> to approval for return to service.

Changing the subject back to replacing the engine... I have yet to find
ANY shop that doesn't require this. When I pick up a plane from a
generic shop they usually expect me to do the flight and make the log
entry. Working with the factory service centers they always test fly it
themselves and make the log entry. What shop do you know that replaces
the engine of an airplane and doesn't do a RTS flight?

-Robert

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

snip

>Changing the subject back to replacing the engine... I have yet to find
>ANY shop that doesn't require this. When I pick up a plane from a
>generic shop they usually expect me to do the flight and make the log
>entry. Working with the factory service centers they always test fly it
>themselves and make the log entry. What shop do you know that replaces
>the engine of an airplane and doesn't do a RTS flight?
>
>-Robert

Gee Bob;

BTW, I'm not the one changing the subject.

If you don't want to take my word for it, let's have a show of hands.
How many owners here have an airframe logbook showing an engine
change or other routine maintenance with a "test flight" entry in it?

An engine change is routine maintenance, dude. Perhaps after you've
performed a hundred or so, you might come to the same conclusion.

I would hope that on your "generic shop" experiences, the required
maintenance record entry states that the aircraft in question is
approved for return to service pending a "test flight", otherwise you
would be leaving the surface of the earth contrary to the CFR. The
"factory service center" verbage should be similiar.

If the AMM of the aircraft in question has a requirement and
parameters for a "test flight" after engine change, I would do it.
Just like if it says if I remove all the screws from a leading edge,
or remove more than 3 panels on a leading edge it needs a stall series
performed. Doesn't specifically call out the CFR either-strange...

The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
aircraft.

The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
to let them perform maintenance.

Don't assume that I've never flown an aircraft personally before
returning it to a customer after inspection/maintenance, or that I
didn't put at least one flight hour on ANY engine install sitting in
the LH seat.

But it is not a clear-cut requirement under the CFR, was not performed
as such, and was not logged as such in the maintenance records.

Unless the airframe manufacturer has it written into the AMM (CFR
"test flight" after maintenance), or the repair station certificate of
the facility in question contains a similiar statement, it is not
required under the CFR.

TC

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
> allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
> the break in?
>

We recently had a guy orbiting our home field for what seemed like
forever after an engine swap.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ]
> Posted At: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:28 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: After an annual?
> Subject: Re: After an annual?
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:22:34 GMT, "Jim Carter" >
> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >I haven't seen it done either, but what about the phrase "...may have
> >appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially
affected
> >its operation in flight"? That could easily mean an annual inspection
> >where access panels and floor boards were removed or where control
> >cables were disconnected and lubed, or any other type maintenance
that
> >might impact safety of flight. I think this is a really good question
> >that has been raised and I would expect the attorneys to think
likewise.
> >
>
> time out. please stop.
>
> I defy you to find ANY aviation maintenance facility in the United
> States that has a policy of performing a CFR-defined "test flight"
> after ANY routine periodic inspection or general "maintenance" prior
> to approval for return to service.
>
> BTW, if it isn't written into the logbooks as such, technically, it
> didn't happen.
>

I don't disagree with you, but the discussion isn't about common
practice -- the discussion was about the part of the FAR that required a
return-to-service test. There are lots of laws in the land that people
violate every day, but when brought to the attention of authorities
during investigations they are enforced.

The question dealt with enforcement of the FAR 91.407 which requires the
test after an activity that may affect handling <my words>.

[Aluminum profile]

http://www.aluminum-profiles.com
Aluminum profile
Aluminum extrusion

"B A R R Y дµÀ£º
"
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
> > allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
> > the break in?
> >
>
> We recently had a guy orbiting our home field for what seemed like
> forever after an engine swap.

[dlevy]

I was the first one to fly my airplane with an overhauled engine. I
recorded the flight parameters in the logbook just as a record that I did
what was recommended by the overhaul shop.

> wrote in message
...
>
> On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>>Changing the subject back to replacing the engine... I have yet to find
>>ANY shop that doesn't require this. When I pick up a plane from a
>>generic shop they usually expect me to do the flight and make the log
>>entry. Working with the factory service centers they always test fly it
>>themselves and make the log entry. What shop do you know that replaces
>>the engine of an airplane and doesn't do a RTS flight?
>>
>>-Robert
>
> Gee Bob;
>
> BTW, I'm not the one changing the subject.
>
> If you don't want to take my word for it, let's have a show of hands.
> How many owners here have an airframe logbook showing an engine
> change or other routine maintenance with a "test flight" entry in it?
>
> An engine change is routine maintenance, dude. Perhaps after you've
> performed a hundred or so, you might come to the same conclusion.
>
> I would hope that on your "generic shop" experiences, the required
> maintenance record entry states that the aircraft in question is
> approved for return to service pending a "test flight", otherwise you
> would be leaving the surface of the earth contrary to the CFR. The
> "factory service center" verbage should be similiar.
>
> If the AMM of the aircraft in question has a requirement and
> parameters for a "test flight" after engine change, I would do it.
> Just like if it says if I remove all the screws from a leading edge,
> or remove more than 3 panels on a leading edge it needs a stall series
> performed. Doesn't specifically call out the CFR either-strange...
>
> The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
> nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
> aircraft.
>
> The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
> aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
> to let them perform maintenance.
>
> Don't assume that I've never flown an aircraft personally before
> returning it to a customer after inspection/maintenance, or that I
> didn't put at least one flight hour on ANY engine install sitting in
> the LH seat.
>
> But it is not a clear-cut requirement under the CFR, was not performed
> as such, and was not logged as such in the maintenance records.
>
> Unless the airframe manufacturer has it written into the AMM (CFR
> "test flight" after maintenance), or the repair station certificate of
> the facility in question contains a similiar statement, it is not
> required under the CFR.
>
> TC

[Robert M. Gary]

B A R R Y wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
> > allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
> > the break in?
> >
>
> We recently had a guy orbiting our home field for what seemed like
> forever after an engine swap.

I did this after my recent fuel servo overhaul. It was a good idea too
because the engine flat died before I was able to lean it to a normal
cruise mixture.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
> The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
> nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
> aircraft.
>
> The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
> aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
> to let them perform maintenance.

My experience is mostly with Mooney shops. However, I've worked with
several. Not a single plane goes out of any of them for anything more
than an oil change w/o a test flight by a 'test pilot'. In fact they
all do pre-annual test flights before starting the annual.
I know the Cirrus shops are the same. I've not worked with Cessna or
Piper though. Perhaps they don't fly their own airplanes.

-Robert

[tom418]

And check under the cowling for breeze clamps being oriented correctly on
SCAT hoses. Once I had a hole worn through the lower cowling on my Cherokee
after a shop had the screw part of a heater clamp chafing on the cowling.
"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "BT" >
> wrote:
>
> > - Log Books are in order, every thing signed off, transponder checks
signed
> > off if needed.
> > - A very through preflight, touch everything, is the seat loose in the
> > tracks? I once had a back seat come loose, it was not reinstalled
properly.
> > - Check all inspectin panels, internal and external, touch everything
> > - Under the cowl, check all spark plugs and leads, fan belt, alternator
> > wires
> > - Check oil filter is secured (safety wire), oil filler cap and oil
level
> > - Check all fuel drains, make sure tanks are filled to the level you
want.
> > - Tires should have been removed to grease the bearings, check for
proper
> > tightness and cotter pins.
> > - Engine runup, Static RPM check (do you know how to do a static check
and
> > what your numbers are?)
> > - Ground VOR Check?
> > - Taxi back, shut it down and do another full preflight, this time
checking
> > for every thing and any thing that leaks.
> > - Only fly it back in DAY VFR conditions and SOLO.
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special
things
> > > you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> > > flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute
flight).
> > > Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to
climb
> > > up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> > > cushion if something goes wrong.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
> > > There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or
food.
> > > They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And
call
> > > the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and
> > > Tanuki
>
> Check all the controls are rigged right. Does left deflection on the yoke
> really give you left deflection on the ailerons? Ditto for elevator and
> rudder.
>
> I once picked up an Archer that had the electric trim worked on. I ran
the
> trim all the way to one end with the electric thumb switch, and when it
> reached the end it made a big "CLUNK" noise and wouldn't budge from that
> position. I'm glad I caught that on the ground.
>
> I once picked up a plane from an annual and flew it back home in night
IMC.
> All I can say about that one is that we learn from our mistakes.
>
> Check under the cowling. One guy in my club got a really nice Snap-On
> wrench by doing a good preflight on a plane which had been flown home from
> an annual the day before.

[tom418]

I ALWAYS check the gascolators on my Seneca for leaks . If they're not
tightened properly after cleaning they WILL leak. "Paul Tomblin"
> wrote in message
...
> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
> There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
> They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
> the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and
Tanuki

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 20 Dec 2006 09:30:34 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>
wrote:
>> On 19 Dec 2006 20:02:13 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
>> wrote:
>> The "factory service centers" I deal with now don't have the staffing
>> nor the insurance to keep trained crews available to fly customer
>> aircraft.
>>
>> The "factory service centers" I used to deal with would NOT fly any
>> aircraft that I was responsible for-it was bad enuff when I was forced
>> to let them perform maintenance.
>
>My experience is mostly with Mooney shops. However, I've worked with
>several. Not a single plane goes out of any of them for anything more
>than an oil change w/o a test flight by a 'test pilot'. In fact they
>all do pre-annual test flights before starting the annual.
>I know the Cirrus shops are the same. I've not worked with Cessna or
>Piper though. Perhaps they don't fly their own airplanes.

We used to do the same thing. After I alllegedly got my ticket, I was
able to do the before/after inspection or maintenance flight without
somebody to make it legal sitting in the right seat. But this has
nothing to do with a 91.407 "test flight".

Also, as I've indicated previously, if the service facility considers
a .407 flight necessary, it must write it into the maintenance record
sign-off as such, and the bird is not approved for return to service
until after that flight is performed and duly noted.

TC

[RST Engineering]

Toe ...

The misunderstanding in this whole thread is that the FAA gives wide
latitude to the MECHANIC to determine what is required and what is not. A
rookie wrench on his first engine installation would probably want to fly
the airplane a couple of hours just to be sure that (s)he did it right.
After your tenth or twentieth motor swap, give the owner the keys and kick
him out the door.

That isn't just unwritten legend. I have a document here in front of me
published by Western Region ("Plane Sense") that prints the words, "It is
the MECHANIC'S opinion as to what constitutes a major or minor repair or
modification". That pretty much cuts it for me.

Jim



> Also, as I've indicated previously, if the service facility considers
> a .407 flight necessary, it must write it into the maintenance record
> sign-off as such, and the bird is not approved for return to service
> until after that flight is performed and duly noted.
>
> TC

[Robert M. Gary]

wrote:
> On 20 Dec 2006 09:30:34 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
> Also, as I've indicated previously, if the service facility considers
> a .407 flight necessary, it must write it into the maintenance record
> sign-off as such, and the bird is not approved for return to service
> until after that flight is performed and duly noted.

I just had my aileron replaced at the factory service center this last
summer. I'll double check my log books but I believe there are two sign
offs. The first is the IA who signed off the work, the second is the
test pilot who signed off the test flight.

-Robert

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
"It is
> the MECHANIC'S opinion as to what constitutes a major or minor repair or
> modification". That pretty much cuts it for me.


Unfortunately, it may not cut it for the next mechanic that wants to sign
off the airplane. Or it might not cut it for the FAA maintenance inspector
when you want to put it on 135.

Mechanics opinions don't carry much weight in aviation. FAA paperwork does.

Karl

[Newps]

karl gruber wrote:

> Mechanics opinions don't carry much weight in aviation. FAA paperwork does.
>

Mechanics opinions carry most of the weight when dealing with the FAA.
A short converstaion with your local FSDO inspector will quickly show
you that. We had a new pilot buy a piece of **** Beech Musketeer and
bring it back here. this guy knew less than nothing and had no business
buying an airplane. Engine doesn't make compression, dozens of rivets
sanded to with an inch of their life, magnesium control surfaces
horribly corroded, windshield has two cracks at least a foot long, the
spinner is from a Piper Cub. When all of this and more was brought to
the attention of the FSDO they said there's nothing they can do unless
the annual was signed off preety much that day. A few months and all
bets are off. The FAA legal department would never allow them to ground
that plane or go after the IA.

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 21 Dec 2006 11:04:34 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>
wrote:
>> On 20 Dec 2006 09:30:34 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
>> wrote:
>> Also, as I've indicated previously, if the service facility considers
>> a .407 flight necessary, it must write it into the maintenance record
>> sign-off as such, and the bird is not approved for return to service
>> until after that flight is performed and duly noted.
>
>I just had my aileron replaced at the factory service center this last
>summer. I'll double check my log books but I believe there are two sign
>offs. The first is the IA who signed off the work, the second is the
>test pilot who signed off the test flight.
sig snip

Which takes us all the way back to your original question:

On 19 Dec 2006 13:30:20 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

snip
>Isn't that required by regulation (although only minimum crew is
>allowed)? Doesn't the pilot have to sign the aircraft log as RTS after
>the break in?
sig snip

I am by no means saying that a 91.407 flight MAY be performed after
just about ANY maintenance.

What I am trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to point out that it is
NOT required by regulation for approval for return to service. Also,
that I could/would (and in other similiar situations have allegedly
actually had to) stand nose-to-nose with the FAA and tell them to pack
sand if they told me it WAS required.

The only way that it would be clearly required by regulation is under

Sec. 43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive
maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use
the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current
manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued
Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods,
techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as
noted in Sec. 43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test
apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance
with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test
apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use
that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the
Administrator.

Again, if the AMM states that a flight test be performed after a
specific maintenance task, it must be performed prior to approval for
return to service.

Again, on specific aircraft, there are specific tasks that do call out
a flight test.

Again, I can NOT speak for the AMM on your particular aircraft, but I
personally have NEVER seen an AMM that requires a flight test after
an engine change. I also seriously doubt that your Mooney AMM requires
a flight test after a flight control surface R/R.

If it IS called for in your specific AMM, then I am 100% WRONG, and a
flight test IS required by regulation.

If the approved repair station manual at a Pt 145 maintenance
facility for some strange reason requires a flight test, then again, I
am 100% WRONG and in this case a flight test IS also required.

While I have allegedly inspected/maintained/operated Pt 91 aircraft
type certificated under CAR3 & Pt 23, inspected/maintained Pt 135
aircraft under CAR3 & Pt 23, and inspected/maintained Pt 91 aircraft
under Pt 25 using my own hypothetical tickets; I have never had the
pleasure of working under a Pt 145 "roof". If you're not sure what all
that means, ask Mr. Weir.

As the Weir-meister has indirectly pointed out, the majority of 91.407
rides are performed because the certificated technician/authorized
inspector/repair station QA person responsible for the work has
decided that (s)he will sleep better at night with a .407 sign-off in
the aircraft maintenance record.

I positively agree in these cases that 91.407 can be used as a
justification for a test flight, but still cannot agree that it is
REQUIRED after routine maintenance unless the above condition (AMM
call out) exists.

In the past, I have allegedly performed major airframe alterations
under the STC/337 process that have absolutely positively
"appreciably changed its flight characteristics" AND "substantially
affected its operation in flight" and approved them for return to
service without a 91.407 flight. Vortex generator installations, for
instance-as Mr. Noel pointed out, another example is an STC'd engine
upgrade.

Again, unless the approved installation instructions specifically
require a flight test, it is up to the judgement of the warm body
responsible under the CFR, it is not required by the CFR.

TC

[Darrel Toepfer]

Roy Smith > wrote:

> Check under the cowling. One guy in my club got a really nice Snap-On
> wrench by doing a good preflight on a plane which had been flown home
> from an annual the day before.

Got a nice Snap-On angled pick this year doing an owner assisted annual on
a friends plane... Comes in handy for lining up screw holes...

[E Andersen]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20061221X01825&key=1


"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do? I'm picking up the club's Lance after its annual today, and
> flying it back from Batavia NY to Rochester NY (about a 25 minute flight).
> Do you do any special pre-flight or flight check? I was planning to climb
> up over the airport to about 4,000 feet so that I'll have some glide
> cushion if something goes wrong.

[Mike Spera]

> When you pick up your plane after an annual, is there any special things
> you do?
..stuff snipped
>

As the responses tell you, more than one person has had one or more
"errors" after their annual. It is likely that something may be missed
when the number of operations performed increases.

I noticed some say to "check the oil filter". I am from the school that
says that the annual inspection is just that. An inspection. I make sure
that all filters (oil, air, vacuum) are already changed and other owner
permissible maintenance is performed. This minimizes the chances that
something is amiss post annual because fewer things have been done. I
also look the beast over carefully at each oil change and note anything
amiss. If I cannot legally fix it, I take it to the IA with parts in
hand and we do the job together. He does not really like chasing after
parts. And, since he is retired, he is not depending on the retail parts
price spread as a source of income. I really LIKE chasing after parts
and don't mind spending hours to get the right one(s).

But, the end is near. My IA is of sufficient age that he is hanging it
up. He may do another year with me, but maybe not. It is a shame that
owner assisted annuals are the exception rather than the rule.

I realize that most owners have neither the time, tools, experience,
desire, or cooperation by the local shop to participate. But those of us
who do are finding it increasingly difficult to get into such an
arrangement.

So, to answer the original question in another way, I would suggest you
offer to participate. That way you will be there to observe the proper
way to do things and you will provide a free set of eyeballs to help out.

Good luck,
Mike

[RST Engineering]

So tell me, grasshopper, how many years of working on your airplane do you
have? Enough to qualify for the 30 months of experience to sit for the A&P
exam? And will your IA sign the experience letter so that you can take the
exam?

Then after a few years of legal wrenching can you walk into the FSDO and ask
for the signoff letter for your own IA? And carry on the tradition of your
mentor doing owner-assisted annuals? And then someone behind you gets to
carry on...and behind him/her ... and so on.

This is all one big circle, bucko, and you are somewhere on it.

Jim


>
> But, the end is near. My IA is of sufficient age that he is hanging it up.
> He may do another year with me, but maybe not. It is a shame that owner
> assisted annuals are the exception rather than the rule.

[Mike Spera]

> So tell me, grasshopper, how many years of working on your airplane do you
> have? Enough to qualify for the 30 months of experience to sit for the A&P
> exam? And will your IA sign the experience letter so that you can take the
> exam?
>
> Then after a few years of legal wrenching can you walk into the FSDO and ask
> for the signoff letter for your own IA? And carry on the tradition of your
> mentor doing owner-assisted annuals? And then someone behind you gets to
> carry on...and behind him/her ... and so on.
>
> This is all one big circle, bucko, and you are somewhere on it.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>>But, the end is near. My IA is of sufficient age that he is hanging it up.
>>He may do another year with me, but maybe not. It is a shame that owner
>>assisted annuals are the exception rather than the rule.
>
>
>

I do note an air of aggravation, Sir Jim. As I recall, you are one of
the brave souls who make a living working on airplanes. My hat is off to
you. One of the toughest businesses I have ever seen. My post was in no
way meant to demean the skills or dedication of those wrenches/IAs in
the field.

Since you asked: I have been working on my airplane for 13 years
(cylinder changes, landing gear rebuilds, metal patches, wiring repair,
A/C removal, Mag R&R and timing, upholstery, vac pump replacements, fuel
and oil line replacements, Installing new wingtips/dorsal fairings,
repairing fiberglass nose cowling, pulling fuel tanks, rebuilding fuel
selector, R&R fuel sending units, painting, rigging, and various other
repairs - all under the supervision of my IA - paying him by the hour
for the privilege).

Before that, I did auto engine mechanics and body work for 15 years.
During that time, I also had a 4 year electronics course and briefly
repaired electronic gizmos (back in the days when you could actually
repair them). I also have experience with upholstery, high current
electrical wiring, auto/boat/truck refinishing systems, and a few other
odds and ends. I worked as an assembler in a machine shop for 2 years
putting together high speed automation machines. That involved
fabricating various parts and assembling electrical, pneumatic,
hydraulic, high freq induction heater, and other systems). Hey, you
asked for the resume.

I am a pretty crappy chess player though, so please don't ask me about
that on the test.

Go for an official license of any sort? Why? I have no love of mechanics
beyond my airplane. I already make well in excess of the pay available
to the airplane mechanic. I don't want the liability burden even if I
did try for it. My IA (of over 50 years) asked me several times if I was
interested in going for it. We never discussed it beyond that point so I
don't know if he would sign me off for the exam.

My PPL and Instrument scores were 100% and I DID get a great night's
sleep, but I digress.

Like I said, I am amazed at a person's dedication to go into the
business. You guys are truly amazing.

But, I am not sure why you find my post so irritating. I merely lamented
at the scarcity of mechanics who are in a position to allow owner
assists on the annual. What's got you so riled (I ask cautiously fearing
a Wrath of God Internet reply)?

Warily,
Mike

[RST Engineering]

>
> I do note an air of aggravation, Sir Jim. As I recall, you are one of the
> brave souls who make a living working on airplanes. My hat is off to you.
> One of the toughest businesses I have ever seen. My post was in no way
> meant to demean the skills or dedication of those wrenches/IAs in the
> field.

No, I make my living teaching college, designing electronic devices for
sale, and writing magazine articles. I do the inspection stuff on the
weekends just because I love aviation. As a matter of fact, my last two
annuals were free, one because the fellow was a carpenter and he helped me
with a dryrot problem and the other because the fellow was a U2 pilot just
back from Iraq.


>
> Go for an official license of any sort? Why? I have no love of mechanics
> beyond my airplane. I already make well in excess of the pay available to
> the airplane mechanic. I don't want the liability burden even if I did try
> for it. My IA (of over 50 years) asked me several times if I was
> interested in going for it. We never discussed it beyond that point so I
> don't know if he would sign me off for the exam.

Because I turned 63 last month, crawling around in the belly of airplanes is
getting harder by the year, and because of all the people I've helped with
inspections I don't have ONE yet that is willing to put out the time and
effort to take my place. Until I do, I won't feel right about "retiring"
(something about the Peter, Paul, and Mary song about lighting one
candle...)

>
> But, I am not sure why you find my post so irritating. I merely lamented
> at the scarcity of mechanics who are in a position to allow owner assists
> on the annual. What's got you so riled (I ask cautiously fearing a Wrath
> of God Internet reply)?

I'm not irritated. I'm frustrated. Everybody from A to Z is bitching about
how hard it is to find good mechanics and IAs but they aren't willing to
take that monkey onto their back. I thought perhaps I might shame you into
trying it for a while. Just because you have the paper (or now plastic) is
no reason you HAVE to do anything with them. And yes, I too make a hell of
a lot more in the classroom than I do getting greasy; I do it because
somebody did it for me, and somebody did it for him, and ...

Jim

Jim

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"RST Engineering" > wrote:

> I'm not irritated. I'm frustrated. Everybody from A to Z is bitching about
> how hard it is to find good mechanics and IAs but they aren't willing to
> take that monkey onto their back.

Would it make you fell a little better if I say that I'm very happy with the
two mechanics that work on my airplane? Both are prior-military (USAF)
mechanics (crew chiefs). One has his IA and the other will get it soon.
And both do it part-time.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate