WAAS upgrade info for Garmin 430

[Paul kgyy]

I called the shop today that installed my Garmin 430 and asked about
WAAS. They offered 2 approaches.
1. Get the upgrade. Cost is $1500 + $95 freight (!) + $100 to install
a different antenna. Terrain is an additional $500. Availability is
uncertain.

2. Replace the entire unit (2 years old). Antenna replacement is
still required, but terrain is only $250 extra on the new units - total
cost about $2200. New units are available now.

Living in the midwest, I'm ambivalent about the value of the terrain
info. That apparently resides on the second data card, so I assume
it's another annual fee to Jeppesen.

[Stan Prevost]

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 2. Replace the entire unit (2 years old). Antenna replacement is
> still required, but terrain is only $250 extra on the new units - total
> cost about $2200. New units are available now.
>

Is that a swap-out with Garmin on the new unit, or can you keep the old one
and sell it on Ebay?

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/20/06 13:42, Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> 2. Replace the entire unit (2 years old). Antenna replacement is
>> still required, but terrain is only $250 extra on the new units - total
>> cost about $2200. New units are available now.
>>
>
> Is that a swap-out with Garmin on the new unit, or can you keep the old one
> and sell it on Ebay?

I guess you're hoping that the avionics shop will install a new GNS 430W
(valued at, what: $10k or so) for $2200 and you get to keep your existing
GNS 430?

That would be a sweet deal indeed! ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I called the shop today that installed my Garmin 430 and asked about
> WAAS. They offered 2 approaches.
> 1. Get the upgrade. Cost is $1500 + $95 freight (!) + $100 to install
> a different antenna. Terrain is an additional $500. Availability is
> uncertain.
>
> 2. Replace the entire unit (2 years old). Antenna replacement is
> still required, but terrain is only $250 extra on the new units - total
> cost about $2200. New units are available now.
>
> Living in the midwest, I'm ambivalent about the value of the terrain
> info. That apparently resides on the second data card, so I assume
> it's another annual fee to Jeppesen.
>


Is $2200 with a trade-in of the older 430?

[Paul kgyy]

>
> Is that a swap-out with Garmin on the new unit, or can you keep the old one
> and sell it on Ebay?

Give the installer 2200 and sell the old one for 6K? Are you kidding?

[Kevin Clarke]

Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I do
precision approaches with it yet?

KC

Paul kgyy wrote:
> I called the shop today that installed my Garmin 430 and asked about
> WAAS. They offered 2 approaches.
> 1. Get the upgrade. Cost is $1500 + $95 freight (!) + $100 to install
> a different antenna. Terrain is an additional $500. Availability is
> uncertain.
>
> 2. Replace the entire unit (2 years old). Antenna replacement is
> still required, but terrain is only $250 extra on the new units - total
> cost about $2200. New units are available now.
>
> Living in the midwest, I'm ambivalent about the value of the terrain
> info. That apparently resides on the second data card, so I assume
> it's another annual fee to Jeppesen.
>

[Stan Prevost]

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
>>
>> Is that a swap-out with Garmin on the new unit, or can you keep the old
>> one
>> and sell it on Ebay?
>
> Give the installer 2200 and sell the old one for 6K? Are you kidding?
>

No, but it seems that Garmin is. Sell a $10K unit with terrain for $2200?

[Ron Natalie]

Kevin Clarke wrote:
> Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I do
> precision approaches with it yet?
>
Gives you a couple of features:

1. There are LPV approaches which have vertical guidance and DH's
a bit higher than ILS's (I think the lowest I've seen is 300').

2. Removes the condition to pick an alternate that has a non-GPS
approach you are equipped to fly.

3. The TSO mandates some nice features such as the autosequencing
of the course reversal and missed approach that the 430/530 was
previously missing.

[Kevin Clarke]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Kevin Clarke wrote:
>> Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I do
>> precision approaches with it yet?
>>
> Gives you a couple of features:
>

Thanks Ron. Now you made me go look and learn something. My CFII never
told me about that. I found this web link which has the LNAV approaches
in the US.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/air_traffic/waas-lpv.pdf

The RNAV RWY 5 approach at Groton, CT, (GON) is below 300'.

KC


> 1. There are LPV approaches which have vertical guidance and DH's
> a bit higher than ILS's (I think the lowest I've seen is 300').
>
> 2. Removes the condition to pick an alternate that has a non-GPS
> approach you are equipped to fly.
>
> 3. The TSO mandates some nice features such as the autosequencing
> of the course reversal and missed approach that the 430/530 was
> previously missing.

[Ron Natalie]

Kevin Clarke wrote:
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>> Kevin Clarke wrote:
>>> Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I
>>> do precision approaches with it yet?
>>>
>> Gives you a couple of features:
>>
>
> Thanks Ron. Now you made me go look and learn something. My CFII never
> told me about that. I found this web link which has the LNAV approaches
> in the US.
>
> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/air_traffic/waas-lpv.pdf
>
> The RNAV RWY 5 approach at Groton, CT, (GON) is below 300'.
>
>
cool...294 is a new winner

[Stan Prevost]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
> cool...294 is a new winner

Our new one is 250.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0613/05924R36.PDF

[Ron Natalie]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>> cool...294 is a new winner
>
> Our new one is 250.
>
> http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0613/05924R36.PDF
>
>
Do I hear 249?

[Dave Butler]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Kevin Clarke wrote:
>> Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I do
>> precision approaches with it yet?
>>
> Gives you a couple of features:
>
> 1. There are LPV approaches which have vertical guidance and DH's
> a bit higher than ILS's (I think the lowest I've seen is 300').
>
> 2. Removes the condition to pick an alternate that has a non-GPS
> approach you are equipped to fly.
>
> 3. The TSO mandates some nice features such as the autosequencing
> of the course reversal and missed approach that the 430/530 was
> previously missing.

It also gives you an advisory glideslope on non-precision approaches, so
it makes the mechanics the same for all approaches, just like an ILS.
Gives you a constant rate descent to the MAP with no level-offs,
guaranteed to be at or above all the step-down altitudes. At least the
GNS480 does this, not sure it's specified in the TSO or not.

[Doug Vetter]

Paul kgyy wrote:
> I called the shop today that installed my Garmin 430 and asked about
> WAAS. They offered 2 approaches.
> 1. Get the upgrade. Cost is $1500 + $95 freight (!) + $100 to install
> a different antenna. Terrain is an additional $500. Availability is
> uncertain.
>
> 2. Replace the entire unit (2 years old). Antenna replacement is
> still required, but terrain is only $250 extra on the new units - total
> cost about $2200. New units are available now.
>
> Living in the midwest, I'm ambivalent about the value of the terrain
> info. That apparently resides on the second data card, so I assume
> it's another annual fee to Jeppesen.

My shop just wrote up a tech brief on this topic. Looks like $1500 +
$200 for the new antenna installation for an average Cessna. If you're
the kind of person that tools around in the soup a lot it looks to be a
worthwhile upgrade.

It's nice to see that Garmin decided not to go ahead with the tiered
pricing model...that would have added insult to injury. After all, they
took their time getting it to market.

There have been significant changes to the TSO requirements for the coax
feedline, so depending primarily on the length of the run, you may need
to pay to install a new low-loss feedline.

The GPS unit must also be installed within about a foot laterally of the
pilot's viewing centerline (the Attitude indicator, usually) and no
lower than the lowest flight instrument. This means that both older
Beech and Cirrus drivers will need to install annunciators (more $$$).

You can get the brief at:

http://www.pennavionics.com/

-Doug

--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

[Brad[_1_]]

Kevin Clarke wrote:
> Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I do
> precision approaches with it yet?
>

646 LPV exist as of 12/21/06. Most of the LPVs are to ~250ft unless
obstacles raise the minima. Two LPVs (PUB and DLH) have been published
wth a 200ft HAT, although NOTAMed to 250' until an internal safety
assessment document is completed(expected sometime in the spring).

By the way, even if there is no LPV procedure, with WAAS you can fly to
LNAV/VNAV minima as well.

Brad

[Brad[_1_]]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Stan Prevost wrote:
> > "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>>
> >> cool...294 is a new winner
> >
> > Our new one is 250.
> >
> > http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0613/05924R36.PDF
> >
> >
> Do I hear 249?

200...

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/00125R9.PDF

check the NOTAMs before you go...

[Brad[_1_]]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Kevin Clarke wrote:
> > Is there any value to WAAS yet, beyond the "Gee Whiz" factor? Can I do
> > precision approaches with it yet?
> >
> Gives you a couple of features:
>
> 1. There are LPV approaches which have vertical guidance and DH's
> a bit higher than ILS's (I think the lowest I've seen is 300').

Check your own backyard! Here's a few in the NoVA area...

RMN is 254 (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/09743R33.PDF)
JYO is 258 (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/05288R17.PDF)
HEF is 298 (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/05326R16L.PDF)

Now put that GNS 480 to work!

[Paul kgyy]

More info on the terrain: that apparently resides on the #2 data card
and is a separate update process that comes from Garmin rather than
from Jeppesen. Cost is expected to be $35 per update or $195 for 12
monthly updates.

Mountains don't move much, but I suppose there are always towers.
However, I wonder about the value of terrain in the midwest. I suppose
if one were in an emergency situation it could be handy to see where
the nearest antenna farm is.

[Roy Smith]

In article om>,
"Brad" > wrote:

> 200...
>
> http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/00125R9.PDF
>
> check the NOTAMs before you go...

Is there anything I'm supposed to do with the "WAAS CH 90502 W09A"
information? Are there receivers which require you to tune the WAAS
corrections in manually? I've always assumed that a WAAS-equipped GPS
would just do that automatically.

[Ron Natalie]

Doug Vetter wrote:

> The GPS unit must also be installed within about a foot laterally of the
> pilot's viewing centerline (the Attitude indicator, usually) and no
> lower than the lowest flight instrument. This means that both older
> Beech and Cirrus drivers will need to install annunciators (more $$$).
>
Wasn't this also a requirement of the non-WAAS IFR installations?

The 480 actually has a few waivers of the distance requirement for
Bo's and the like. It was just easier for me to install the GPS/NAV
annunciator though.

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:
..
>
> Is there anything I'm supposed to do with the "WAAS CH 90502 W09A"
> information? Are there receivers which require you to tune the WAAS
> corrections in manually? I've always assumed that a WAAS-equipped GPS
> would just do that automatically.

The 480 does. I'm sure the 430-W will as well. I suspect this is
one of those things like the TACAN channel numbers put in there for
"other" users.

[Brad[_1_]]

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article om>,
> "Brad" > wrote:
>
> > 200...
> >
> > http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/00125R9.PDF
> >
> > check the NOTAMs before you go...
>
> Is there anything I'm supposed to do with the "WAAS CH 90502 W09A"
> information? Are there receivers which require you to tune the WAAS
> corrections in manually? I've always assumed that a WAAS-equipped GPS
> would just do that automatically.

Those WAAS channel numbers are part of a spec for "Delta 4" receivers
typically associated with an FMS installation that doesn't have a
database of the whole procedure, but instead uses the the channel
number to indentify the Final Approach Segment (FAS). The FMS is used
to navigate the procedure up to the FAF,and the Delta 4 receiver flies
the FAS. This is similar to how an ILS is flown using an FMS.

Your 480 shows the channel, but it isn't necessary to pull up the
procedure.

[JD]

>
> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/air_traffic/waas-lpv.pdf
>

RNAV LPVs as of 9/28/06:
http://gps.faa.gov/Library/Data/Master-RNAVs_092806.xls

There may even be a newer list on the web site somewhere.

-JD

[Brad[_1_]]

JD wrote:
> There may even be a newer list on the web site somewhere.

Yes, there is...

http://gps.faa.gov/CapHill/indexApproach.htm

As of 12/21/06:

646 total LPV procedures, as well as 520 LNAV/VNAV procedures without
LPV that can be flown to LNAV/VNAV minima using WAAS.

Expect another 31 LPV procedures 1/18/07.

Brad