DA40-180 G1000 Alternator warning light mystery

[Sweendawg]

Little help from the list:

I've had two shops look at my DA40 and no luck. Two weeks ago I flew
pretty heavy IFR long x-c (Leesburg, VA to St Loius, MO) the plane sat
on the ramp in the rain overnight one night. Next morning the
"Alternator Failed- the battery is the only power source" red warning
came on.

I immediately went into the shop where I was and had them look at it
and put a Fluke on the connection just in front of the firewall. This
is after looking at the alternator, checking the tension of the belt,
making sure everything was dry,etc. I continually watch the system info
to make sure the vlots are 28 +/- when the engine is at cruise, so I
know the alternator is working. The plane seems to be running fine, but
it's not a comforting warning light or thing to have dinging constantly
on approach.

The warning light now predictably comes on during most run-ups, and
stays on for climb out and back on at decent. This makes me think a
sensor is overheating or something.

Anyone have any ideas or similar issue?

Thanks.

Sweendawg

[Blueskies]

When I was working on my instrument rating (way back when!) I was under the hood doing some airwork, when I noticed that
the radios went away and the T&B was not working right. I thought 'what did the instructor do now', so I continued
flying partial panel and started troubleshooting. Couldn't figure out what he did, so I asked him. He was just as
puzzled as I was, it looked like we just suddenly lost all electrical power. Fortunately we were in clear VFR
conditions, so we returned to the field, got the light gun signal, and landed (gear came down OK?). As we were taxiing
off the runway, we bumped over an expansion joint and everything came back on. They ended up troubleshooting that thing
for three days before they found an intermittent connection on some connector...

Moral of the story, electrical stuff can really hurt you, so spend the time and get it fixed before committing to any
IFR at all (or even flying it for that matter). I would get Diamond involved also...

Dan D.


"Sweendawg" > wrote in message
oups.com...
: Little help from the list:
:
: I've had two shops look at my DA40 and no luck. Two weeks ago I flew
: pretty heavy IFR long x-c (Leesburg, VA to St Loius, MO) the plane sat
: on the ramp in the rain overnight one night. Next morning the
: "Alternator Failed- the battery is the only power source" red warning
: came on.
:
: I immediately went into the shop where I was and had them look at it
: and put a Fluke on the connection just in front of the firewall. This
: is after looking at the alternator, checking the tension of the belt,
: making sure everything was dry,etc. I continually watch the system info
: to make sure the vlots are 28 +/- when the engine is at cruise, so I
: know the alternator is working. The plane seems to be running fine, but
: it's not a comforting warning light or thing to have dinging constantly
: on approach.
:
: The warning light now predictably comes on during most run-ups, and
: stays on for climb out and back on at decent. This makes me think a
: sensor is overheating or something.
:
: Anyone have any ideas or similar issue?
:
: Thanks.
:
: Sweendawg
:

[[email protected]]

Sweendawg > wrote:
> Two weeks ago I flew pretty heavy IFR long x-c (Leesburg, VA to
> St Loius, MO) the plane sat on the ramp in the rain overnight one
> night. Next morning the "Alternator Failed- the battery is the only
> power source" red warning came on.

OK, I'll state the blindingly obvious: You've got a loose connection
somewhere. :) I think the rain is a clue; a marginal connection got
wet, maybe got corroded a little, and is continuing to cause you
trouble.

Also, Odin is really the wrong Norse god for this sort of thing. You
need to talk to Thor.

> I continually watch the system info to make sure the vlots are 28 +/-
> when the engine is at cruise, so I know the alternator is working.

Well, you _know_ that the G1000 says "28" on it, so you _think_ that the
alternator is working. I can think of a couple of reasons that the
G1000 might be lying to you.

First, the display update rate may be much slower than the sampling rate.
This is done on purpose; it's distracting to have the last couple of
digits of a digital readout jumping around when you're trying to read
it. The alarm, however, may be set to trigger on any low voltage reading,
including one that doesn't last long enough to show up on the display. A
very short glitch might be enough to trigger the alarm but not enough to
show up on the display. Hand-held digital voltmeters usually have a
faster update rate, but a glitch might still sneak by. A digital
storage oscilloscope will almost surely find it, but not every shop has
one of those.

Second, it is possible for an alternator to partially fail but still
sort of work. If one of the diodes (out of at least usually three) in
it fails, it may still put out enough volts to charge the battery, but
it won't be able to put out full current, and the voltage will have a
lot of ripple on it. The G1000 could be looking at the ripple on the
input voltage to detect partial alternator failure, or it could be that
the troughs of the ripple are enough to set off the alarm.

It looks like the G1000 can tell you if your battery is charging or
discharging, which means that there is probably a shunt in the electrical
system somewhere that all of the battery charging current flows through,
and that would be another place to look. (A shunt is a calibrated,
low-value, high-power resistor - it can even be a known length of wire
in the harness.) There may also be a shunt for the alternator. Or,
instead of a shunt, it could be using a Hall-effect current sensor -
this sometimes looks like a little ring that goes around one of the big,
high-current wires in the electrical system. If the connections to
either a shunt or current sensor are intermittent, that might trigger
the alarm.

Another possibility is that the G1000 is seeing an _over_voltage that
it doesn't like. Imagine that you're driving up a hill in a manual
transmission car, and the clutch fairy suddenly steps on the clutch
pedal without you knowing it. The engine would speed up quite a bit
until you figured out what was going on and backed off of the throttle.
The alternator/voltage regulator can do the same thing if an electrical
load is suddenly disconnected, as might happen with a bad connection.

> The warning light now predictably comes on during most run-ups, and
> stays on for climb out and back on at decent.

This is actually good - if you (or the shop) can make it happen on
demand, it's a lot easier to find. It sounds like it's correlated with
increased vibration, at least for run-up and climb out, which also
suggests a loose connection. Another thing to think about - did anything
else "interesting" happen to the electrical system lately? New battery,
existing battery got so dead you had to put a start-cart on it, new neon
lights underneath, new LED windshield wiper nozzles?

One place to look first might be at the high-current connections in the
electrical system: battery, master relay, alternator output, main bus,
and shunts (if so equipped). If these connections aren't happy, nobody
is going to be happy.

Another place to look first would be in the G1000 operating or service
manual to see what conditions trigger the alternator alarm, and then
chase those conditions backwards from the panel. The manual should say
whether it is making a simple voltage measurement, or also looking at
voltage ripple, current, current ripple, etc.

If the alternator is really easy to get off of the engine, and if the
test gear is available, it can be eliminated in a hurry by pulling it
off and bench-testing it. If it's a pain in the butt to remove, more
tests should be made with the alternator installed before deciding to
remove it. Same for the battery - if it's easy to get at, pull it out
and test it.

> This makes me think a sensor is overheating or something.

I'm not sure how likely this is. It's probable that at least one of
the voltage "sensors" is built into the G1000 itself - it'd be a real
simple measurement to make on the main power line coming in. If it
makes any current measurements, those sensors are probably external.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with electrical systems and
electronic equipment in ground vehicles and in fixed installations.
I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Your mileage may vary.

Matt Roberds

[Sweendawg]

Matt,

That's helpful. I'm going to run it by the shop today.

You bring up a good point - It could be the new sub-woofer and DVD
screens in the back of the pilot seat that might have done it. I've had
the under-plane neon for ages so that wouldn't be the cause:-)

Seriously, I didn't even think of the vibration at climb/run-up. I was
thinking more the lack of cooling coming in the cowling. But the
vibration on a loose connection makes sense.

Thanks for the help.

Sweendawg


wrote:
> Sweendawg > wrote:
> > Two weeks ago I flew pretty heavy IFR long x-c (Leesburg, VA to
> > St Loius, MO) the plane sat on the ramp in the rain overnight one
> > night. Next morning the "Alternator Failed- the battery is the only
> > power source" red warning came on.
>
> OK, I'll state the blindingly obvious: You've got a loose connection
> somewhere. :) I think the rain is a clue; a marginal connection got
> wet, maybe got corroded a little, and is continuing to cause you
> trouble.
>
> Also, Odin is really the wrong Norse god for this sort of thing. You
> need to talk to Thor.
>
> > I continually watch the system info to make sure the vlots are 28 +/-
> > when the engine is at cruise, so I know the alternator is working.
>
> Well, you _know_ that the G1000 says "28" on it, so you _think_ that the
> alternator is working. I can think of a couple of reasons that the
> G1000 might be lying to you.
>
> First, the display update rate may be much slower than the sampling rate.
> This is done on purpose; it's distracting to have the last couple of
> digits of a digital readout jumping around when you're trying to read
> it. The alarm, however, may be set to trigger on any low voltage reading,
> including one that doesn't last long enough to show up on the display. A
> very short glitch might be enough to trigger the alarm but not enough to
> show up on the display. Hand-held digital voltmeters usually have a
> faster update rate, but a glitch might still sneak by. A digital
> storage oscilloscope will almost surely find it, but not every shop has
> one of those.
>
> Second, it is possible for an alternator to partially fail but still
> sort of work. If one of the diodes (out of at least usually three) in
> it fails, it may still put out enough volts to charge the battery, but
> it won't be able to put out full current, and the voltage will have a
> lot of ripple on it. The G1000 could be looking at the ripple on the
> input voltage to detect partial alternator failure, or it could be that
> the troughs of the ripple are enough to set off the alarm.
>
> It looks like the G1000 can tell you if your battery is charging or
> discharging, which means that there is probably a shunt in the electrical
> system somewhere that all of the battery charging current flows through,
> and that would be another place to look. (A shunt is a calibrated,
> low-value, high-power resistor - it can even be a known length of wire
> in the harness.) There may also be a shunt for the alternator. Or,
> instead of a shunt, it could be using a Hall-effect current sensor -
> this sometimes looks like a little ring that goes around one of the big,
> high-current wires in the electrical system. If the connections to
> either a shunt or current sensor are intermittent, that might trigger
> the alarm.
>
> Another possibility is that the G1000 is seeing an _over_voltage that
> it doesn't like. Imagine that you're driving up a hill in a manual
> transmission car, and the clutch fairy suddenly steps on the clutch
> pedal without you knowing it. The engine would speed up quite a bit
> until you figured out what was going on and backed off of the throttle.
> The alternator/voltage regulator can do the same thing if an electrical
> load is suddenly disconnected, as might happen with a bad connection.
>
> > The warning light now predictably comes on during most run-ups, and
> > stays on for climb out and back on at decent.
>
> This is actually good - if you (or the shop) can make it happen on
> demand, it's a lot easier to find. It sounds like it's correlated with
> increased vibration, at least for run-up and climb out, which also
> suggests a loose connection. Another thing to think about - did anything
> else "interesting" happen to the electrical system lately? New battery,
> existing battery got so dead you had to put a start-cart on it, new neon
> lights underneath, new LED windshield wiper nozzles?
>
> One place to look first might be at the high-current connections in the
> electrical system: battery, master relay, alternator output, main bus,
> and shunts (if so equipped). If these connections aren't happy, nobody
> is going to be happy.
>
> Another place to look first would be in the G1000 operating or service
> manual to see what conditions trigger the alternator alarm, and then
> chase those conditions backwards from the panel. The manual should say
> whether it is making a simple voltage measurement, or also looking at
> voltage ripple, current, current ripple, etc.
>
> If the alternator is really easy to get off of the engine, and if the
> test gear is available, it can be eliminated in a hurry by pulling it
> off and bench-testing it. If it's a pain in the butt to remove, more
> tests should be made with the alternator installed before deciding to
> remove it. Same for the battery - if it's easy to get at, pull it out
> and test it.
>
> > This makes me think a sensor is overheating or something.
>
> I'm not sure how likely this is. It's probable that at least one of
> the voltage "sensors" is built into the G1000 itself - it'd be a real
> simple measurement to make on the main power line coming in. If it
> makes any current measurements, those sensors are probably external.
>
> Disclaimer: This is based on experience with electrical systems and
> electronic equipment in ground vehicles and in fixed installations.
> I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Your mileage may vary.
>
> Matt Roberds

[Steve C]

Sweendawg: You also might check on the DAPO website. A number of owners
have posted about charging system faults in the past.

www.dapo.org

Steve

[[email protected]]

Sweendawg > wrote:
> I'm going to run it by the shop today.

Any word from the shop? Just curious.

Matt Roberds

[fgerard]

Sweendawg wrote:
I'm going to run it by the shop today.

Any word from the shop? Just curious.

Matt Roberds

i have the same issue with a c182 g1000
did you solve the problem
thanks