Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.

[Roy N5804F]

Piper Archer II PA28-181
Help please !!
We have just replaced the cabin roof airduct in our 1977 Piper Archer II
PA28-181.
The duct feeds fresh air from the rear mounted blower to each of the 4
overhead air outlets.
The air is controlled by a push & pull cable mounted in the duct.
With the air duct closed, no air being fed to the overhead ducts, there is
howling cold airflow up through the right side of the rear seat floor duct.
The cold air flow with the overhead duct closed must be coming from central
air outlet under the belly of the bird ?
We never had this problem before the new air duct was fitted ?

Our maintenance crew have had both the overhead duct system apart and the
rear seat board out to inspect that area.
Everything looks normal and they are perplexed how to cure the problem.
I wonder how many other PA28 owners with overhead fresh air ducts have had
this issue ?

Thanks for all input.
--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

..

[Jay Honeck]

> We have just replaced the cabin roof airduct in our 1977 Piper Archer II
> PA28-181.
> The duct feeds fresh air from the rear mounted blower to each of the 4
> overhead air outlets.
> The air is controlled by a push & pull cable mounted in the duct.
> With the air duct closed, no air being fed to the overhead ducts, there is
> howling cold airflow up through the right side of the rear seat floor duct.

Having spent a goodly amount of time working on (and replacing) that
very same fresh air flapper (the one that controls the ceiling ducts)
in my '74 Pathfinder, I can tell you without hesitation that it has
NOTHING to do with the air coming in the floor ducts.

If air is coming out of a floor duct, you've got a bad flapper valve in
that duct. Make sure to check that the cold air isn't actually coming
from under the back SEAT.

If you have the bench seat, this is an extremely common place for air
to leak into a Cherokee. Luckily, it can be easily remedied with a
strip of strategically-placed closed-pore foam insullation, laid down
where the bench seat meets the bottom of the airframe.

This 75-cent piece of foam can make all the difference in the world.

> The cold air flow with the overhead duct closed must be coming from central
> air outlet under the belly of the bird ?

Nope. However, there IS an inlet on the belly that could be the source
of air leaking under the seat. This inlet on the bottom of the plane
is simply an open hole -- there is no control.

> Our maintenance crew have had both the overhead duct system apart and the
> rear seat board out to inspect that area.
> Everything looks normal and they are perplexed how to cure the problem.
> I wonder how many other PA28 owners with overhead fresh air ducts have had
> this issue ?

I spent a dozen or more hours weather-sealing my old '75 Warrior. It
was colder than hell in the winter, and my poor kids had to fly wrapped
in a sleeping bag in winter. After methodically sealing the door, and
each leak (Example: Stuff "Nerf" balls in the floor ducts to really
seal out any leaking air), we could fly that plane in shirtsleeves, no
matter what the weather.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roy N5804F]

Thanks Jay,

Unusually, I did not replace the upper air duct myself so I did not have the
chance to see the rear flapper valve.
I do know that the valve works effectively because when the operating knob
is pulled out to the off position all fresh air stops coming out of the 4
overhead ducts.

Now I am making an assumption that when the overhead duct is on, the cabin
is very slightly *pressurized* which stops the flow of up coming in from the
belly open duct.
The back seat set up in my Archer will be very similar to your Pathfinder, a
pair of seats which mount on the removable floor board which itself has a
vent each side.

I have been involved for several years assisting with annuals and fitting
new interiors to PA28-180/181 aircraft so I am very familiar with taking out
the floor boards etc.
I now do all of *preventative maintenance* that the rules allow on my own
Archer so frequently get to see the innards of the beast.
The centrally mounted belly vent, as you say has no valve, the external
shield should work a bit like automatic bailers fitted in racing sailing
dinghy's.
By hanging down in the breeze, it should create some "suck" and pull stale
cabin air through the rear board vents into the outside world.
But it does appear that when I close the overhead duct, I am getting a
reverse flow from under the rear seat board back through the board side
vents into the cabin.

At the time of fitting the new overhead plastic ducts [November] my shop did
several other jobs, namely I had them re-rig all the flight controls and
replace a couple of smoking rivets.
The issue with the draft appeared immediately after that spell in the shop.
The bird is booked into the paint shop in Feb and I am trying to make sure
that all is good before getting stripped and painted.


During December I had a new leather interior fitted, so the fit of the seat
board against the wall panels is now very snug.
But still the howling draft pours through the right side seat board vent.
I wonder why no draft out of the left seat board vent ?
That might be the key to solving the issue !

Roy




"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...[i]
>> We have just replaced the cabin roof airduct in our 1977 Piper Archer II
>> PA28-181.
>> The duct feeds fresh air from the rear mounted blower to each of the 4
>> overhead air outlets.
>> The air is controlled by a push & pull cable mounted in the duct.
>> With the air duct closed, no air being fed to the overhead ducts, there
>> is
>> howling cold airflow up through the right side of the rear seat floor
>> duct.
>
> Having spent a goodly amount of time working on (and replacing) that
> very same fresh air flapper (the one that controls the ceiling ducts)
> in my '74 Pathfinder, I can tell you without hesitation that it has
> NOTHING to do with the air coming in the floor ducts.
>
> If air is coming out of a floor duct, you've got a bad flapper valve in
> that duct. Make sure to check that the cold air isn't actually coming
> from under the back SEAT.
>
> If you have the bench seat, this is an extremely common place for air
> to leak into a Cherokee. Luckily, it can be easily remedied with a
> strip of strategically-placed closed-pore foam insullation, laid down
> where the bench seat meets the bottom of the airframe.
>
> This 75-cent piece of foam can make all the difference in the world.
>
>> The cold air flow with the overhead duct closed must be coming from
>> central
>> air outlet under the belly of the bird ?
>
> Nope. However, there IS an inlet on the belly that could be the source
> of air leaking under the seat. This inlet on the bottom of the plane
> is simply an open hole -- there is no control.
>
>> Our maintenance crew have had both the overhead duct system apart and the
>> rear seat board out to inspect that area.
>> Everything looks normal and they are perplexed how to cure the problem.
>> I wonder how many other PA28 owners with overhead fresh air ducts have
>> had
>> this issue ?
>
> I spent a dozen or more hours weather-sealing my old '75 Warrior. It
> was colder than hell in the winter, and my poor kids had to fly wrapped
> in a sleeping bag in winter. After methodically sealing the door, and
> each leak (Example: Stuff "Nerf" balls in the floor ducts to really
> seal out any leaking air), we could fly that plane in shirtsleeves, no
> matter what the weather.
>
> Good luck!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> During December I had a new leather interior fitted, so the fit of the seat
> board against the wall panels is now very snug.
> But still the howling draft pours through the right side seat board vent.
> I wonder why no draft out of the left seat board vent ?
> That might be the key to solving the issue !

Wow, that's a weird one, Roy.

So the draft is coming through that fine mesh that buts up against the
sidewalls, right next to the rear bucket seats? But only on the
*co-pilots* side?

There is nothing underneath that plank that should be able to direct
the air in any one direction -- it's just an open cavity beneath that
big hunk of plywood. Why the air would only come out the RIGHT
mesh/vent/opening is truly a mystery.

I suppose you could try duct taping a piece of cardboard to the bottom
side of the mesh, and go fly it? If nothing else, you'd be able to
see if (a) the draft stops, and (b) if it now pours out the LEFT
mesh/duct.

You sure that the little shroud around the bottom vent hole isn't
installed backwards, turning it into ram-air instead of venturi?

You might post this on Cherokee Chat, the Cherokee Pilots Association's
website. If someone there doesn't know the answer, it's either
unanswerable, or you truly are a pioneer in this particular problem.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roy N5804F]

Hi Jay,
Yes you have a good understanding of the issue now. All the statements you
made are right on.
The air is pouring up though the fine mesh duct on the plank on the
co-pilots side of the bird.
As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
vent on the pilots side.

The external shroud is positioned as a venturi rather than a scoop !
The wings are in the normal place and no metal has gone missing on the
underside of the plane :-)
BTW this is the first time since owning the Archer that we have had an
overhead duct without holes in it !

Piper Chat ? Can you let me have a link?

Thanks

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>> During December I had a new leather interior fitted, so the fit of the
>> seat
>> board against the wall panels is now very snug.
>> But still the howling draft pours through the right side seat board vent.
>> I wonder why no draft out of the left seat board vent ?
>> That might be the key to solving the issue !
>
> Wow, that's a weird one, Roy.
>
> So the draft is coming through that fine mesh that buts up against the
> sidewalls, right next to the rear bucket seats? But only on the
> *co-pilots* side?
>
> There is nothing underneath that plank that should be able to direct
> the air in any one direction -- it's just an open cavity beneath that
> big hunk of plywood. Why the air would only come out the RIGHT
> mesh/vent/opening is truly a mystery.
>
> I suppose you could try duct taping a piece of cardboard to the bottom
> side of the mesh, and go fly it? If nothing else, you'd be able to
> see if (a) the draft stops, and (b) if it now pours out the LEFT
> mesh/duct.
>
> You sure that the little shroud around the bottom vent hole isn't
> installed backwards, turning it into ram-air instead of venturi?
>
> You might post this on Cherokee Chat, the Cherokee Pilots Association's
> website. If someone there doesn't know the answer, it's either
> unanswerable, or you truly are a pioneer in this particular problem.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
> vent on the pilots side.

That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.

The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/

With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
http://cherokeeflyin.com/

We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

Looking at my ARCHER II manual...

The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

[Jay Honeck]

> The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.
>
> The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.
>
> The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
> blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim[_11_]]

Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right sides
join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left side is
creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side causing air
to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow well
pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more water
up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet opening
on the bottom of the plane?
Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.
> >
> > The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.
> >
> > The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
> > blower in between.
>
> Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.
>
> There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
> between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
> grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
> compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
> hole in the bottom of the plane.
>
> Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.
>
> That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
> flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
> bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
> of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
> impossible.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Roy N5804F]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.
>>
>> The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.
>>
>> The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
>> blower in between.
>
> Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.
>
> There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
> between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
> grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
> compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
> hole in the bottom of the plane.
>
> Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.
>
> That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
> flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
> bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
> of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
> impossible.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

Jay has it correct.
I happen to be a pretty capable mechanical engineer and this issue has me
totally foxed.
The airplane is in the shop right now and I have asked them to pull the rear
seat plank out again.
As soon as they do that I am going to have another look and also check why
air is not coming out of the mesh grill on the other side of the seat plank.
Thinking about it, they also fitted new seals to the other 4 floor ducts,
which also now shut off very nicely.
Perhaps she is just too tight :-)

Roy

[Roy N5804F]

Thanks Jay,
I shall head over and get joined up.
Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
off from work.
Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
what happens.

Roy


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
>> vent on the pilots side.
>
> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>
> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>
> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>
> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Roy N5804F]

Good point there Jim,
Unfortunately both of the fine mesh vents in the rear seat plank are not
connected to ducts at all.
They just vent cabin air to the area under the seat plank and from there the
stale air should vent via the central belly hole.
But you may have hit on a point.
Although the vents are not ducted I will check if I can see how the air
might flow under the plank.

Thanks
Roy



"Jim" > wrote in message
...
>
> Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right
> sides
> join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
> Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left side is
> creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side causing air
> to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow well
> pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more water
> up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet
> opening
> on the bottom of the plane?
> Jim
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> > The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.
>> >
>> > The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.
>> >
>> > The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
>> > blower in between.
>>
>> Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.
>>
>> There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
>> between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
>> grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
>> compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
>> hole in the bottom of the plane.
>>
>> Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.
>>
>> That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
>> flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
>> bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
>> of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
>> impossible.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>
>
>

[Ray Andraka]

Sounds like a door seal that isn't sealing well. A door seal leaking,
especially along the back edge of the door will, suck air out of the
cockpit (same is true of the pilot's storm window, if you've ever opened
it in flight it creates a considerable suction, in fact there is a SB
that requires a placard warning not to open it over 150 MPH because
doing so creates enough suction to actually break the stock 1/8"
windshields). Being that it is the right side that has the draft,
rather confirms this diagnosis. I have a similar issue with the rear
left seat in my six. The door has a gap at the rear bottom and that
sucks cold air in from the screened air exhaust vents behind the back
seats making that one seat pretty chilly.

[Roy N5804F]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sounds like a door seal that isn't sealing well. A door seal leaking,
> especially along the back edge of the door will, suck air out of the
> cockpit (same is true of the pilot's storm window, if you've ever opened
> it in flight it creates a considerable suction, in fact there is a SB that
> requires a placard warning not to open it over 150 MPH because doing so
> creates enough suction to actually break the stock 1/8" windshields).
> Being that it is the right side that has the draft, rather confirms this
> diagnosis. I have a similar issue with the rear left seat in my six. The
> door has a gap at the rear bottom and that sucks cold air in from the
> screened air exhaust vents behind the back seats making that one seat
> pretty chilly.
>

Ray,

Well I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
We have recently replaced the floor mounted round vent seals, fitted new
overhead ducts and flapper valve.
The door seal will be replaced when the bird is painted in Feb and I know it
does not seal well.
So with the exception of the main door and baggage door the ship is pretty
air tight, that may have made the situation worse.

Thanks for the input.

Roy

[Montblack]

("Jim" wrote)
> Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right
> sides join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?

> What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet opening on the
> bottom of the plane?


How about using both setting on a shop-vac? ...and some ribbon?

Since work has recently been done, I suspect a disconnected duct piece
somewhere.


Montblack
<http://www.aem.umn.edu/outreach/Baseball_Launcher/startrib1.pdf>
The HHH Metrodome's vents work just fine. <g>

<http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/07/26/metrodome_winds_ap/>
Same air vent story

[john smith]

Coming in through the cabin outflow/exhaust outlet? That is strange.

[Dave[_3_]]

Hi Roy!

I second this.

That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!

I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"

How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?

As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
part...

Dave



On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> wrote:

>
>Thanks Jay,
>I shall head over and get joined up.
>Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
>off from work.
>Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
>what happens.
>
>Roy
>
>
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
>>> vent on the pilots side.
>>
>> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
>> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>>
>> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
>> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
>> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>>
>> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
>> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
>> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
>> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>>
>> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>>
>
>

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Could it be possible that the cabin roof vent from the tail has an
opening to the empennage and that pressurizes the empennage when you
close the flapper to the overhead outlets? There would also have to be
something blocking the wall grille on the left side of the cabin. The
impact air at cruise may be at high enough volume and pressure to
overwhelm the belly exit vent and the residual volume flows backward
into the cabin via the right wall grille.

Just a thought based on what I've seen in this thread so far.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roy N5804F ]
> Posted At: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:28 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.
> Subject: Re: Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.
>
>
> Good point there Jim,
> Unfortunately both of the fine mesh vents in the rear seat plank are
not
> connected to ducts at all.
> They just vent cabin air to the area under the seat plank and from
there
> the
> stale air should vent via the central belly hole.
> But you may have hit on a point.
> Although the vents are not ducted I will check if I can see how the
air
> might flow under the plank.
>
> Thanks
> Roy
>
>
>
> "Jim" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and
right
> > sides
> > join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
> > Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left
side
> is
> > creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side
causing
> air
> > to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow
> well
> > pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more
> water
> > up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet
> > opening
> > on the bottom of the plane?
> > Jim
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> > The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.
> >> >
> >> > The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.
> >> >
> >> > The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening
with
> the
> >> > blower in between.
> >>
> >> Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.
> >>
> >> There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
> >> between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee.
This
> >> grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
> >> compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out
a
> >> hole in the bottom of the plane.
> >>
> >> Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.
> >>
> >> That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi
in
> >> flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out
the
> >> bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming
OUT
> >> of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
> >> impossible.
> >> --
> >> Jay Honeck
> >> Iowa City, IA
> >> Pathfinder N56993
> >> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> >> "Your Aviation Destination"
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

[Jay Honeck]

> We have recently replaced the floor mounted round vent seals, fitted new
> overhead ducts and flapper valve.
> The door seal will be replaced when the bird is painted in Feb and I know it
> does not seal well.
> So with the exception of the main door and baggage door the ship is pretty
> air tight, that may have made the situation worse.

Ray's theory seems plausible. Just beware that putting on a new door
seal alone might not solve your door-seal problem. It sure didn't
with our old Warrior's door.

The Cherokee door is held on with two light-weight hinges that can (and
often will) be easily bent over time. (In my experience, EVERY
uneducated passenger or maintenance worker leans on that door when they
get in/out of the plane.) All it takes is someone leaning heavily on
the door with it wide open, and your door will NOT seal properly when
you close it, no matter what type of foam seal you may apply.

If your door is cockeyed in the opening, there are half a dozen
possible adjustments, some involving shims, others involving bending.
I spent many hours making my Warrior's door airtight, and can give you
some tips if it should come to that.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roy N5804F]

Dave,

I have signed up !

About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is the
VSI.
It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built that
climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)

I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
appertaining to an Archer :-(
I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?

Roy

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Roy!
>
> I second this.
>
> That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
> Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!
>
> I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
> greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
> replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"
>
> How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?
>
> As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
> part...
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Thanks Jay,
>>I shall head over and get joined up.
>>Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
>>off from work.
>>Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
>>what happens.
>>
>>Roy
>>
>>
>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh
>>>> plank
>>>> vent on the pilots side.
>>>
>>> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
>>> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>>>
>>> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
>>> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
>>> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>>>
>>> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
>>> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
>>> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
>>> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>>>
>>> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
>>> --
>>> Jay Honeck
>>> Iowa City, IA
>>> Pathfinder N56993
>>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 01/17/07 08:35, Roy N5804F wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I have signed up !
>
> About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is the
> VSI.
> It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built that
> climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
> If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>
> I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
> appertaining to an Archer :-(
> I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
> pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?

It shouldn't. The VSI should be vented (through a calibrated "leak") to
the static air source, outside. The cabin pressure shouldn't affect it,
unless you've selected the alternate static source, or there is a leak
between the static source and alternate static source.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Roy N5804F]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 01/17/07 08:35, Roy N5804F wrote:
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I have signed up !
>>
>> About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is
>> the
>> VSI.
>> It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built
>> that
>> climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
>> If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>>
>> I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
>> appertaining to an Archer :-(
>> I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
>> pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?
>
> It shouldn't. The VSI should be vented (through a calibrated "leak") to
> the static air source, outside. The cabin pressure shouldn't affect it,
> unless you've selected the alternate static source, or there is a leak
> between the static source and alternate static source.
>
Thanks,
I had all the hoses replaced last year, incluing all in the cockpit and out
to the pitot tube.
Maybe they are all ok.
[I changed all the vacuum hoses as well]

Roy

[Mark Hansen]

On 01/17/07 08:54, Roy N5804F wrote:
>
>
> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 01/17/07 08:35, Roy N5804F wrote:[i]
>>>
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> I have signed up !
>>>
>>> About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is
>>> the
>>> VSI.
>>> It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built
>>> that
>>> climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
>>> If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>>>
>>> I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
>>> appertaining to an Archer :-(
>>> I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
>>> pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?
>>
>> It shouldn't. The VSI should be vented (through a calibrated "leak") to
>> the static air source, outside. The cabin pressure shouldn't affect it,
>> unless you've selected the alternate static source, or there is a leak
>> between the static source and alternate static source.
>>
> Thanks,
> I had all the hoses replaced last year, incluing all in the cockpit and out
> to the pitot tube.
> Maybe they are all ok.
>

Well ... one way to tell would be to select the alternate static source
while flying. Assuming your alternate static source is vented to the
cabin, it should show a slight climb for a time before settling back
to zero.

If it shows no change when selecting the alternate static source, there
may be something amiss there.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Dave[_1_]]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh..... Rats!

Sorry..

Open the Alt static, THEN see if closing the airvent affects the
VSI..

If it momentarily swings positive, it could indicate a neg pressure
in the cabin..

Just a thought...

Sorry my first was not complete.. :(

Dave


On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:35:35 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> wrote:

>
>Dave,
>
>I have signed up !
>
>About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is the
>VSI.
>It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built that
>climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
>If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>
>I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
>appertaining to an Archer :-(
>I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
>pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?
>
>Roy
>
>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi Roy!
>>
>> I second this.
>>
>> That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
>> Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!
>>
>> I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
>> greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
>> replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"
>>
>> How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?
>>
>> As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
>> part...
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Thanks Jay,
>>>I shall head over and get joined up.
>>>Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
>>>off from work.
>>>Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
>>>what happens.
>>>
>>>Roy
>>>
>>>
>>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh
>>>>> plank
>>>>> vent on the pilots side.
>>>>
>>>> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
>>>> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>>>>
>>>> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
>>>> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
>>>> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>>>>
>>>> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
>>>> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
>>>> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
>>>> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>>>>
>>>> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
>>>> --
>>>> Jay Honeck
>>>> Iowa City, IA
>>>> Pathfinder N56993
>>>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Roy N5804F]

:-)

Thanks Dave,

Roy


"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> Ahhhhhhhhhhh..... Rats!
>
> Sorry..
>
> Open the Alt static, THEN see if closing the airvent affects the
> VSI..
>
> If it momentarily swings positive, it could indicate a neg pressure
> in the cabin..
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Sorry my first was not complete.. :(
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:35:35 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Dave,
>>
>>I have signed up !
>>
>>About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is the
>>VSI.
>>It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built that
>>climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
>>If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>>
>>I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
>>appertaining to an Archer :-(
>>I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
>>pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?
>>
>>Roy
>>
>>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>>> Hi Roy!
>>>
>>> I second this.
>>>
>>> That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
>>> Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!
>>>
>>> I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
>>> greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
>>> replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"
>>>
>>> How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?
>>>
>>> As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
>>> part...
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks Jay,
>>>>I shall head over and get joined up.
>>>>Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to
>>>>take
>>>>off from work.
>>>>Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to
>>>>see
>>>>what happens.
>>>>
>>>>Roy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh
>>>>>> plank
>>>>>> vent on the pilots side.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I
>>>>> just
>>>>> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
>>>>> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
>>>>> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
>>>>> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
>>>>> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
>>>>> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jay Honeck
>>>>> Iowa City, IA
>>>>> Pathfinder N56993
>>>>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Dave[_3_]]

NP Roy!

Will look 4 U on the Cherokee Chat!

Don't be bashful! Dive in!

Dave

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:15:01 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> wrote:

>
>:-)
>
>Thanks Dave,
>
>Roy
>
>
>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>> Ahhhhhhhhhhh..... Rats!
>>
>> Sorry..
>>
>> Open the Alt static, THEN see if closing the airvent affects the
>> VSI..
>>
>> If it momentarily swings positive, it could indicate a neg pressure
>> in the cabin..
>>
>> Just a thought...
>>
>> Sorry my first was not complete.. :(
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:35:35 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Dave,
>>>
>>>I have signed up !
>>>
>>>About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is the
>>>VSI.
>>>It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built that
>>>climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
>>>If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>>>
>>>I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
>>>appertaining to an Archer :-(
>>>I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
>>>pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?
>>>
>>>Roy
>>>
>>>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Hi Roy!
>>>>
>>>> I second this.
>>>>
>>>> That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
>>>> Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!
>>>>
>>>> I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
>>>> greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
>>>> replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"
>>>>
>>>> How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?
>>>>
>>>> As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
>>>> part...
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks Jay,
>>>>>I shall head over and get joined up.
>>>>>Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to
>>>>>take
>>>>>off from work.
>>>>>Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to
>>>>>see
>>>>>what happens.
>>>>>
>>>>>Roy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh
>>>>>>> plank
>>>>>>> vent on the pilots side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
>>>>>> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
>>>>>> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
>>>>>> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
>>>>>> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
>>>>>> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jay Honeck
>>>>>> Iowa City, IA
>>>>>> Pathfinder N56993
>>>>>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Roy N5804F]

Thanks Dave,
Well I am in there monitoring the chat.


--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F


"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> NP Roy!
>
> Will look 4 U on the Cherokee Chat!
>
> Don't be bashful! Dive in!
>
> Dave
>
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:15:01 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>Thanks Dave,
>>
>>Roy
>>
>>
>>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>>> Ahhhhhhhhhhh..... Rats!
>>>
>>> Sorry..
>>>
>>> Open the Alt static, THEN see if closing the airvent affects the
>>> VSI..
>>>
>>> If it momentarily swings positive, it could indicate a neg pressure
>>> in the cabin..
>>>
>>> Just a thought...
>>>
>>> Sorry my first was not complete.. :(
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:35:35 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dave,
>>>>
>>>>I have signed up !
>>>>
>>>>About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is
>>>>the
>>>>VSI.
>>>>It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built
>>>>that
>>>>climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
>>>>If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)
>>>>
>>>>I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
>>>>appertaining to an Archer :-(
>>>>I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight
>>>>negative
>>>>pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?
>>>>
>>>>Roy
>>>>
>>>>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> Hi Roy!
>>>>>
>>>>> I second this.
>>>>>
>>>>> That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
>>>>> Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
>>>>> greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
>>>>> replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"
>>>>>
>>>>> How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?
>>>>>
>>>>> As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
>>>>> part...
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks Jay,
>>>>>>I shall head over and get joined up.
>>>>>>Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to
>>>>>>take
>>>>>>off from work.
>>>>>>Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to
>>>>>>see
>>>>>>what happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Roy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh
>>>>>>>> plank
>>>>>>>> vent on the pilots side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
>>>>>>> room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to
>>>>>>> join,
>>>>>>> and then some. See them here: http://www.piperowner.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
>>>>>>> count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
>>>>>>> And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that here:
>>>>>>> http://cherokeeflyin.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jay Honeck
>>>>>>> Iowa City, IA
>>>>>>> Pathfinder N56993
>>>>>>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>>>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>