See and avoid...

[Ramy]

An eye opener:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/bca0107c.xml

We are mentioned there as well:
"Most recently, a Hawker 800XP descending into Reno collided with a
Schleicher ASW-27 sailplane near Minden, Nev., a popular soaring
location. Somewhat miraculously the glider pilot managed to parachute
to safety and the crew of the damaged Hawker was able to execute a
single-engine, gear-up emergency landing at the nearby Carson City
Airport. Everybody walked away."

Ramy

[Andy[_1_]]

Ramy wrote:
> An eye opener:
> http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/bca0107c.xml

It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
than most pilots will be willing to pay.

Andy

[Mike Schumann]

Why has this dream passed, and why will ADS-B not be portable? This is the
type of project that the SAA along with other groups (Skydivers,
Ultralights, etc.) should be working on.

Mike Schumann

"Andy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Ramy wrote:
>> An eye opener:
>> http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/bca0107c.xml
>
> It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
> years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
> skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
> Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
> was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
> than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>
> Andy
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Andreas Alin]

> Ramy wrote:
>> An eye opener:
>> http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/bca0107c.xml
>
> It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
> years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
> skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
> Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
> was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
> than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>
> Andy
>

For several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts, especially
gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in europe:
http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html


Andreas

[jcarlyle]

Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
before on this group.

-John

On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
> wrote:
> > Ramy wrote:
> >> An eye opener:
> >>http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/b...
>
> > It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
> > years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
> > skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
> > Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
> > was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
> > than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>
> > AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts, especially
> gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
>
> Andreas

[Ramy]

What prevents a US manufacture to produce a Flarm/ADS-B compatible
device, similar to what was done in Australia?

Ramy

On Jan 28, 6:00 am, "jcarlyle" > wrote:
> Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
> Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
> official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
> designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
> before on this group.
>
> -John
>
> On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > Ramy wrote:
> > >> An eye opener:
> > >>http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/b...
>
> > > It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
> > > years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
> > > skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
> > > Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
> > > was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
> > > than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>
> > > AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts, especially
> > gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
>
> > Andreas- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[jcarlyle]

IIRC, the Australians licensed the FLARM design from Flarm Technology
in Switzerland, and then they engineered in the ADS-B
compatibility.From what I've seen in the FLARM manual, a US
manufacturer wouldn't be able to negotiate a license from Flarm
Technology. A US manufacturer would have to start with a clean sheet
of paper, and engineer a FLARM compatible and ADS-B compatible
device.

However, according to the Flarm web site, there are potential
intellectual property infringements, such as the one that Flarm
avoided in France. I don't have detailed information on what other
potential infringements may exist. But those, and money, would prevent
a US manufacturer from offering such a device.

Got someone interested in doing it, Ramy?

-John

On Jan 28, 1:13 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
> What prevents a US manufacture to produce a Flarm/ADS-B compatible
> device, similar to what was done in Australia?

[Eric Greenwell]

Ramy wrote:
> What prevents a US manufacture to produce a Flarm/ADS-B compatible
> device, similar to what was done in Australia?

It wouldn't have to be compatible, as no one will fly their glider from
the US to Europe or Australia. The very small number of motorgliders
that might make that trip can make arrangements to buy, borrow, or rent
one when they get there. Life is simpler if you don't need the
compatibility, and might made the FLARM folks sleep better at night, too.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

The Flarm operating manual version 3.05 (Jan 8th 2007)
http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/FLARM_OperatingManual_v3.05E.pdf
on page 12 of 12 states "Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or
Canada or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."

The FOCA approved aircraft flight manual supplement
http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/flarm_afms_v1.00_en.pdf includes:
"Important Note:
Operation of FLARM is forbidden in aircraft in which one or more of the
occupants resides in or is a citizen of the USA or Canada. Likewise, use of
FLARM is forbidden if the aircraft concerned takes off from, makes an
intermediate or final landing in the USA or Canada"
(Swiss FOCA approved Date 14.03.06 Revision Original Page 3 of 9)

I have no idea why these restrictions are made, but I imagine that the North
American legal systems, liability laws and extradition rules have something
to do with it.

I believe that compatibility between OzFlarm and ADS-B is planned, but has
not happened yet.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
> Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
> official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
> designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
> before on this group.
>
> -John
>
> On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
> > wrote:
>> > Ramy wrote:
>> >> An eye opener:
>> >>http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/b...
>>
>> > It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
>> > years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
>> > skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
>> > Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
>> > was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
>> > than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>>
>> > AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts,
>> > especially
>> gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in
>> europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
>>
>> Andreas
>

[Ramy]

Too bad. Sounds like a clinical case of hyper paranoia.

Ramy

On Jan 28, 3:04 pm, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> wrote:
> The Flarm operating manual version 3.05 (Jan 8th 2007)http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/FLARM_OperatingManual_v3.05E.pdf
> on page 12 of 12 states "Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or
> Canada or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."
>
> The FOCA approved aircraft flight manual supplementhttp://www.flarm.com/support/manual/flarm_afms_v1.00_en.pdfincludes:
> "Important Note:
> Operation of FLARM is forbidden in aircraft in which one or more of the
> occupants resides in or is a citizen of the USA or Canada. Likewise, use of
> FLARM is forbidden if the aircraft concerned takes off from, makes an
> intermediate or final landing in the USA or Canada"
> (Swiss FOCA approved Date 14.03.06 Revision Original Page 3 of 9)
>
> I have no idea why these restrictions are made, but I imagine that the North
> American legal systems, liability laws and extradition rules have something
> to do with it.
>
> I believe that compatibility between OzFlarm and ADS-B is planned, but has
> not happened yet.
>
> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> "jcarlyle" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
> > Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
> > official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
> > designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
> > before on this group.
>
> > -John
>
> > On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
> > > wrote:
> >> > Ramy wrote:
> >> >> An eye opener:
> >> >>http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/b...
>
> >> > It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
> >> > years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
> >> > skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
> >> > Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
> >> > was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
> >> > than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>
> >> > AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts,
> >> > especially
> >> gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in
> >> europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
>
> >> Andreas- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[Andreas Alin]

Why shouldn't it be compatible? The FLARM organisation isn't against
third party devices using the FLARM-Protocol. They just want not be
accuses by US courts if somebody claim for damages.

This is the german statement from the FLARM folks:
"Die teilweise extremen Haftpflichtforderungen aus dem
nordamerikanischen Raum haben uns dazu veranlasst, entsprechende klare
Einschränkungen zu erlassen. Es obliegt dem Benützer von Flarm und dem
Kommandanten, Flarm gemäss den Betriebsbedingungen und -einschränkungen
zu verwenden. Flarm Technology kann diesbezüglich keine Ausnahmen gewähren."

Further they wrote, that the FLARM radio communication protocol is
available against a small protective charge. FLARM compatible devices
need a unique ID to work properly. This IDs will be distributed by the
FLARM folks against an adequate fee.

Andreas

Eric Greenwell schrieb:
> Ramy wrote:
>> What prevents a US manufacture to produce a Flarm/ADS-B compatible
>> device, similar to what was done in Australia?
>
> It wouldn't have to be compatible, as no one will fly their glider from
> the US to Europe or Australia. The very small number of motorgliders
> that might make that trip can make arrangements to buy, borrow, or rent
> one when they get there. Life is simpler if you don't need the
> compatibility, and might made the FLARM folks sleep better at night, too.
>

[Andreas Alin]

There is a simple matter for this. US-courts have a bad reputation in
europe, especially for imposing high damages.

The risc seems to be to high for a non-commercial organization like FLARM.

Andreas

Ramy wrote:
> Too bad. Sounds like a clinical case of hyper paranoia.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Jan 28, 3:04 pm, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> > wrote:
>> The Flarm operating manual version 3.05 (Jan 8th 2007)http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/FLARM_OperatingManual_v3.05E.pdf
>> on page 12 of 12 states "Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or
>> Canada or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."
>>
>> The FOCA approved aircraft flight manual supplementhttp://www.flarm.com/support/manual/flarm_afms_v1.00_en.pdfincludes:
>> "Important Note:
>> Operation of FLARM is forbidden in aircraft in which one or more of the
>> occupants resides in or is a citizen of the USA or Canada. Likewise, use of
>> FLARM is forbidden if the aircraft concerned takes off from, makes an
>> intermediate or final landing in the USA or Canada"
>> (Swiss FOCA approved Date 14.03.06 Revision Original Page 3 of 9)
>>
>> I have no idea why these restrictions are made, but I imagine that the North
>> American legal systems, liability laws and extradition rules have something
>> to do with it.
>>
>> I believe that compatibility between OzFlarm and ADS-B is planned, but has
>> not happened yet.
>>
>> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>> Remove "ic" to reply.
>>
>> "jcarlyle" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>> Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
>>> Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
>>> official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
>>> designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
>>> before on this group.
>>> -John
>>> On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
>>> > wrote:
>>>>> Ramy wrote:
>>>>>> An eye opener:
>>>>>> http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/b...
>>>>> It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
>>>>> years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
>>>>> skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
>>>>> Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
>>>>> was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
>>>>> than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>>>>> AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts,
>>>>> especially
>>>> gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in
>>>> europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
>>>> Andreas- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>

[[email protected]]

Remember Grob? They almost went out of business because some idiot
painted his ailerons and "it was not stated in the manual to not do
that"
I dont blame them.

Ron


On 29 jan, 04:10, "Ramy" > wrote:
> Too bad. Sounds like a clinical case of hyper paranoia.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Jan 28, 3:04 pm, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
>
> > wrote:
> > The Flarm operating manual version 3.05 (Jan 8th 2007)http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/FLARM_OperatingManual_v3.05E.pdf
> > on page 12 of 12 states "Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or
> > Canada or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."
>
> > The FOCA approved aircraft flight manual supplementhttp://www.flarm.com/support/manual/flarm_afms_v1.00_en.pdfincludes:
> > "Important Note:
> > Operation of FLARM is forbidden in aircraft in which one or more of the
> > occupants resides in or is a citizen of the USA or Canada. Likewise, use of
> > FLARM is forbidden if the aircraft concerned takes off from, makes an
> > intermediate or final landing in the USA or Canada"
> > (Swiss FOCA approved Date 14.03.06 Revision Original Page 3 of 9)
>
> > I have no idea why these restrictions are made, but I imagine that the North
> > American legal systems, liability laws and extradition rules have something
> > to do with it.
>
> > I believe that compatibility between OzFlarm and ADS-B is planned, but has
> > not happened yet.
>
> > W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> > Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> > "jcarlyle" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>
> > > Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
> > > Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
> > > official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
> > > designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
> > > before on this group.
>
> > > -John
>
> > > On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
> > > > wrote:
> > >> > Ramy wrote:
> > >> >> An eye opener:
> > >> >>http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_bca_story.jsp?id=news/b...
>
> > >> > It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
> > >> > years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
> > >> > skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
> > >> > Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
> > >> > was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
> > >> > than most pilots will be willing to pay.
>
> > >> > AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts,
> > >> > especially
> > >> gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in
> > >> europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
>
> > >> Andreas- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[kirk.stant]

It's a bit of a moot point, anyway. The problem in the US (and
probably Canada, also) is not midairs with other gliders (as it is in
Germany or the Alps), but midairs with VFR lightplanes or fast
movers. FLARM would do absolutely no good unless they also carried
it, and that is not going to happen!

What we need in the US is a low-power, combination transponder (to
trigger TCAS and be seen by ATC) and transponder detector (like TPAS)
to warn of nearby VFR or military traffic that is transponder-equipped
but not talking to center.

The detector is easy - $500 for a TPAS and we are good to go. I plan
on getting mine when the season starts. But at $2K+ for a
transponder, it's be a while before they are real common, especially
in older gliders.

What I would like is an integration of TPAS with my PDA software
(SeeYou Mobile, in my case) so I can hide the hardware - one less
thing to look at inside the cockpit. I want a good loud "CHECK
TRAFFIC ONE MILE FORTY-SIX HUNDRED FEET CLOSING" to get my attention
where it belongs! We already have it for airspace and as far as I
know, no-one has ever died from running into Class B airspace!

Kirk
Ls6 "66"

[bumper]

"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
oups.com...

>
> The detector is easy - $500 for a TPAS and we are good to go. I plan
> on getting mine when the season starts. But at $2K+ for a
> transponder, it's be a while before they are real common, especially
> in older gliders.
> Kirk
> Ls6 "66"
>


More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so have been
flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well over
$3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
(last time I checked).

bumper

[Andreas Alin]

bumper schrieb:
I fly out of Minden so have been
> flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
> since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
> equipment.

How long does the accumulator last?

> bumper
>
>

[kirk.stant]

> Ls6 "66"More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so have been
> flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
> since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
> equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well over
> $3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
> (last time I checked).
>
> bumper

Transponders are kinda like airbags in cars - nobody denies they are
safer, but they are not always available or easy to install...(I know,
that's a whining excuse).

What is your experience with your TPAS?

I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!

66

[Jeremy Zawodny]

kirk.stant wrote:
>> Ls6 "66"More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so have been
>> flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
>> since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
>> equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well over
>> $3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
>> (last time I checked).
>>
>> bumper
>
> Transponders are kinda like airbags in cars - nobody denies they are
> safer, but they are not always available or easy to install...(I know,
> that's a whining excuse).
>
> What is your experience with your TPAS?
>
> I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
> by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
> knots below 10,000" airliner?

Yes.

I haven't met one up close, but I've been close enough (1/2 mile or so).
But others I know who also fly in the Great Basin have had close
encounters that scared them into installing transponders. They seem to
occur mostly around Reno/Minden and Air Sailing.

Jeremy

[bumper]

My experience with TPAS is such that I wouldn't fly without it - -
especially not anywhere near cloudbase. It's true that sometimes it's
difficult to judge when one is maintaining exactly the proper required
distance from clouds. And in the unlikely case you "misjudge" and snuggle up
to the fluffy stuff a bit too close, it's comforting to know that there's
not likely anything big and made of metal that will be exiting nearby.

The transponder is equally important for this too, as all the big heavy
things have TCAS and thus will see you, or will receive an altitude hold or
vectors around you from ATC.

I'll often monitor 119.2 (Reno ATC) if I'm up that way or when high over the
Pinenuts (SE of Minden). Invariably I'll hear them point me out to other
traffic, often even before that traffic shows up on my TPAS.

bumper

"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Ls6 "66"More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so
>> have been
>> flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker
>> transponder
>> since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K
>> in
>> equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well
>> over
>> $3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
>> (last time I checked).
>>
>> bumper
>
> Transponders are kinda like airbags in cars - nobody denies they are
> safer, but they are not always available or easy to install...(I know,
> that's a whining excuse).
>
> What is your experience with your TPAS?
>
> I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
> by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
> knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
> leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
> Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
> surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!
>
> 66
>

[jcarlyle]

Yes, Kirk, I have, here north of the PHL Class B. My PCAS (Zaon MRX)
detected it 5 miles away, but I couldn't see it until it was almost
directly overhead. It was 600 feet above me, running through a cloud
layer. I was keeping an eagle eye on the ascend/descend flag as I rode
that street, I can tell you!

-John

On Jan 30, 10:43 am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
> by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
> knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
> leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
> Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
> surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!

[kirk.stant]

Great feedback - It sounds like the PCAS is a real asset, especially
when clouds are involved. I'm saving my pennies for one now.

Lately I've been flying in southern Illinois, well below airline
traffic, but smack in the middle of a lot of VFR traffic. I'm
thinking a PCAS will be a definite help here.

I've had some relatively close encounters with airliners - where I've
had to move out of a thermal to let the "bus" through (no sense in
pushing my luck hoping they will see me, kinda the sailboat vs
supertanker analogy), but always had plenty of time to see it and move
out of the way. Of course, that assumes I've seen all of them nearby
- BIG assumption! I have observed that a letting-down 737NG doesn't
make any noise as it goes by less than a mile away...

Kirk
66

[Eric Greenwell]

kirk.stant wrote:

> I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
> by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
> knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
> leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
> Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
> surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!

We don't have the big airliners in our area, excpet for the 747s that
practice out of Moses Lake. They are easy to see, but we know where they
will be, and they don't wander far from the aiport. Does a C-17 count?
Even though they are easy to see, I've been surprised by a C-17 a couple
times during long glides.

I sometimes don't see an airliner until it's past me (so far, at least a
couple miles away) while wave flying in the 15K - 18 K altitude band as
they descend towards Seattle. They are going west, I'm facing west in
the wave - I do see the ones climbing east from Seattle.

Anyway, I got a transponder a few years ago, and these things don't
happen anymore. I will get a TPAS after the convention, also.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Jack[_1_]]

kirk.stant wrote:

> I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
> by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
> knots below 10,000" airliner?

No, but I have been the Sneaker-Up in one a' them "no-sh*t great big
hulking 250 knots below 10,000' airliners" -- except we were higher than
10,000', and moving briskly. He was pretty hard to see, though we did
see him AFTER ATC pointed him out to us, and after some anxious
searching. A transponder in the glider would have let our TCAS know
exactly where he was, and much sooner than we finally made visual
contact. No maneuvering was necessary that time, but we were closer than
I would have preferred. I hope he heard us: maybe he's equipped with a
transponder now.


Jack