Wing Tape - Does Thickness Affect Performance?

[ContestID67]

No, this is not SPAM as the subject line might lead one to believe.
;-)

I have seen lots of wing tape. Many of the advertisements are for very
thin and flexible tape which conforms to the curves of the wing.
However, the cost can be prohibitive, especially if you assemble often.

A friend of mine (very high time & competitive pilot) uses 3M
electrical tape. We got to talking about it and we agreed that this
high quality tape is very flexible, has good temperature properties and
not very expensive. Easy to find also.

The only issue then was the thickness. Wouldn't the edge of the think
tape affect performance? The friend pointed out (correctly) that the
tape runs perpenticular to the span of the wing and thus the tape's
edge is parallel to the air flow. Thus no performance issues.

Any thoughts? What about with bug whippers?

Enjoy, John

PS There is one issue with 1/2" wide electrical tape - whether it is
wide enough to bridge the gap. It all depends, I suppose, on the fit
and finish of your glider.

[JS]

ContestID67 wrote:


> However, the cost can be prohibitive, especially if you assemble often.
>

> The only issue then was the thickness.

I / we own toys that cost a hell of a lot of money, mine more than the
purchase price of my house.
The idea of a bit of tape being expensive boggles the mind.

Buy six rolls from Mike Bowlus. It's great stuff. His hats are great
too.
Legal disclaimer, I don't work for Mike.

Make sure all your overlaps don't give you an additional tape leading
edge, ie: on AS-W27 or similar, start at the trailing edge and overlap
the three pieces on each side.

Jim

[01-- Zero One]

"ContestID67" > wrote in message
ups.com:

> No, this is not SPAM as the subject line might lead one to believe.
> ;-)
>
> I have seen lots of wing tape. Many of the advertisements are for very
> thin and flexible tape which conforms to the curves of the wing.
> However, the cost can be prohibitive, especially if you assemble often.
>
> A friend of mine (very high time & competitive pilot) uses 3M
> electrical tape. We got to talking about it and we agreed that this
> high quality tape is very flexible, has good temperature properties and
> not very expensive. Easy to find also.
>
> The only issue then was the thickness. Wouldn't the edge of the think
> tape affect performance? The friend pointed out (correctly) that the
> tape runs perpenticular to the span of the wing and thus the tape's
> edge is parallel to the air flow. Thus no performance issues.





Actually, I believe that not all the airflow is parallel to the
streamline. For instance, on the top aft half of the wing or so there
is a low pressure area and I think that pulls air from the fuselage area
somewhat laterally out onto the wing.



>
> Any thoughts? What about with bug whippers?





Nope, I think you need to try alt.sex.insects.bondage group for that.





Larry

01 "zero one"

LS-3a USA

[[email protected]]

> I / we own toys that cost a hell of a lot of money, mine more than the
> purchase price of my house.
> The idea of a bit of tape being expensive boggles the mind.

Speak for yourself, some of us are in this sport because its cheap fun.
I only taped the Cherokee a few times this year. my longest flights
came without tape.

[[email protected]]

Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
course of a contest. That's why many top Euopean contest pilots use a
special putty compound to smooth over the tape edges. It's a bit
tedious for a single day's flying, but if you're going to stay
assembled for a week it's not so bad.

On Jan 22, 3:13 pm, "ContestID67" > wrote:
> No, this is not SPAM as the subject line might lead one to believe.
> ;-)
>
> I have seen lots of wing tape. Many of the advertisements are for very
> thin and flexible tape which conforms to the curves of the wing.
> However, the cost can be prohibitive, especially if you assemble often.
>
> A friend of mine (very high time & competitive pilot) uses 3M
> electrical tape. We got to talking about it and we agreed that this
> high quality tape is very flexible, has good temperature properties and
> not very expensive. Easy to find also.
>
> The only issue then was the thickness. Wouldn't the edge of the think
> tape affect performance? The friend pointed out (correctly) that the
> tape runs perpenticular to the span of the wing and thus the tape's
> edge is parallel to the air flow. Thus no performance issues.
>
> Any thoughts? What about with bug whippers?
>
> Enjoy, John
>
> PS There is one issue with 1/2" wide electrical tape - whether it is
> wide enough to bridge the gap. It all depends, I suppose, on the fit
> and finish of your glider.

[Bert Willing]

What a nonsense...

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
> course of a contest. That's why many top Euopean contest pilots use a
> special putty compound to smooth over the tape edges. It's a bit
> tedious for a single day's flying, but if you're going to stay
> assembled for a week it's not so bad.
>

[Dan G]

wrote:

> Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
> course of a contest.

Got any evidence for that?


Dan

[Andy[_1_]]

wrote:
> Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
> course of a contest.

How many days would that be? Can you also tell me how many points it
costs for the drag of an open airvent and an extended pee tube?

Andy

[HL Falbaum]

Gosh, is it April already?

--
Hartley Falbaum


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
> course of a contest. That's why many top Euopean contest pilots use a
> special putty compound to smooth over the tape edges. It's a bit
> tedious for a single day's flying, but if you're going to stay
> assembled for a week it's not so bad.
>
> On Jan 22, 3:13 pm, "ContestID67" > wrote:
>> No, this is not SPAM as the subject line might lead one to believe.
>> ;-)
>>
>> I have seen lots of wing tape. Many of the advertisements are for very
>> thin and flexible tape which conforms to the curves of the wing.
>> However, the cost can be prohibitive, especially if you assemble often.
>>
>> A friend of mine (very high time & competitive pilot) uses 3M
>> electrical tape. We got to talking about it and we agreed that this
>> high quality tape is very flexible, has good temperature properties and
>> not very expensive. Easy to find also.
>>
>> The only issue then was the thickness. Wouldn't the edge of the think
>> tape affect performance? The friend pointed out (correctly) that the
>> tape runs perpenticular to the span of the wing and thus the tape's
>> edge is parallel to the air flow. Thus no performance issues.
>>
>> Any thoughts? What about with bug whippers?
>>
>> Enjoy, John
>>
>> PS There is one issue with 1/2" wide electrical tape - whether it is
>> wide enough to bridge the gap. It all depends, I suppose, on the fit
>> and finish of your glider.
>

[Ian]

wrote:
> Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
> course of a contest.

Has that ever been scientifically measured?

Ian

[SAM 303a]

"Andy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>> Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
>> course of a contest.
>
> How many days would that be? Can you also tell me how many points it
> costs for the drag of an open airvent and an extended pee tube?
>
> Andy
>
7, 34 & 20-400 depending on how often you pee, how it takes to void your
bladder and whether or not you remember to retract the gear afterwards.

fadoodle gotcha!

[Udo]

On Jan 23, 4:00 pm, "Andy" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Tape drag not a huge effect, but can add up to 10 or 15 points over the
> > course of a contest.How many days would that be? Can you also tell me how many points it
> costs for the drag of an open airvent and an extended pee tube?
>
> Andy

I am do not know about the tape, but a 6"-7" pee tube could generate
about .2 lb of drag at 85 kt, hence a one day contest base on a 1000
points, all else being equal, could reduce the points count by 12-15
points.
Udo

[Andreas Maurer]

On 24 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0800, "Udo" > wrote:


>I am do not know about the tape, but a 6"-7" pee tube could generate
>about .2 lb of drag at 85 kt, hence a one day contest base on a 1000
>points, all else being equal, could reduce the points count by 12-15
>points.

.... not to mention the significant loss of wing loading due to the
weight that goes overboard through the pee tube...


Bye
Andreas

[Bert Willing]

But he's right - that's why I use pee bags, so I only have to deal with the
loss of wing load :-)

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0800, "Udo" > wrote:
>
>
>>I am do not know about the tape, but a 6"-7" pee tube could generate
>>about .2 lb of drag at 85 kt, hence a one day contest base on a 1000
>>points, all else being equal, could reduce the points count by 12-15
>>points.
>
> ... not to mention the significant loss of wing loading due to the
> weight that goes overboard through the pee tube...
>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[Andy[_1_]]

Yeh, I considered both of these effects (mass and drag) when I decided
to keep the yellow ballast on board and dump after landing.

Andy

[Udo]

On Jan 25, 5:14 am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0800, "Udo" > wrote:
>
> >I am do not know about the tape, but a 6"-7" pee tube could generate
> >about .2 lb of drag at 85 kt, hence a one day contest base on a 1000
> >points, all else being equal, could reduce the points count by 12-15
> >points.... not to mention the significant loss of wing loading due to the
> weight that goes overboard through the pee tube...
>
> Bye
> Andreas

To heck with the drag, convenience is king, but you can reduce that
drag of the tube to 1.2 to 1.5 points a day if you fair it. In the past
pilots did find that incorporating the tube on the inside of the gear
door was not a good solution either. The drag caused by lowering the
gear partly caused overall more drag over time. Naturally the older you
get the more drag you generate, as you have too lower the gear more
often, as well each session takes longer. Also you have to remember to
lower the gear.
Udo

[Maciek]

U¿ytkownik "Bert Willing" >
napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci ...
> But he's right - that's why I use pee bags, so I only have to deal with
> the loss of wing load :-)


Oh! Just admit that your machine doesn't have the pee tube installed;-).
By the way, a pee bag can suprise you if it's not durable enough;-)
Maciek

[Ken Kochanski (KK)]

Technically, wouldn't ejecting a liquid under pressure to the rear
create a propulsion vector. Younger guys would have an advantage in
both M and V ... older guys would would have more propulsion episodes.


> > AndyI am do not know about the tape, but a 6"-7" pee tube could generate
> about .2 lb of drag at 85 kt, hence a one day contest base on a 1000
> points, all else being equal, could reduce the points count by 12-15
> points.
> Udo

[Bert Willing]

Even a durable one can surprise the copilot if he wasn't summoned beforehand
to close his window :-)

"Maciek" > wrote in message
...
>
> U¿ytkownik "Bert Willing" >
> napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci ...
>> But he's right - that's why I use pee bags, so I only have to deal with
>> the loss of wing load :-)
>
>
> Oh! Just admit that your machine doesn't have the pee tube installed;-).
> By the way, a pee bag can suprise you if it's not durable enough;-)
> Maciek
>

[Udo]

On Jan 25, 10:14 am, "Ken Kochanski (KK)" >
wrote:
> Technically, wouldn't ejecting a liquid under pressure to the rear
> create a propulsion vector. Younger guys would have an advantage in
> both M and V ... older guys would would have more propulsion episodes.

Exactly,
Corky installed it on his 27, now mine, in that fashion, facing back. I
will install an accumulator and will heat it with access heat from
within the cockpit and expel it under higher pressure and make it a
one episode thing on final glide.
Udo

[jcarlyle]

Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need for an in-flight
relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots are subject to,
or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward to?

I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to know if there are
others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink up to 48 ounces of
water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours, and I fly in
eastern Pennsylvania.

-John

[Nyal Williams]

You can look forward to it, eventually. It helps if
the cockpit seat is reclined a good bit; lying down
helps us spend 8 hours in bed without going. I'm down
to about 4 hrs in the cockpit without relief and I
have about 18 years on you.

At 17:44 25 January 2007, Jcarlyle wrote:
>Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need
>for an in-flight
>relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots
>are subject to,
>or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward
>to?
>
>I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to
>know if there are
>others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink
>up to 48 ounces of
>water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours,
>and I fly in
>eastern Pennsylvania.
>
>-John
>
>

[HL Falbaum]

You would not like the results of a ruptured bladder if you crash on
landing!
It can be (and has been) fatal, as it is sometimes not detected till too
late.

--
Hartley Falbaum


"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> You can look forward to it, eventually. It helps if
> the cockpit seat is reclined a good bit; lying down
> helps us spend 8 hours in bed without going. I'm down
> to about 4 hrs in the cockpit without relief and I
> have about 18 years on you.
>
> At 17:44 25 January 2007, Jcarlyle wrote:
>>Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need
>>for an in-flight
>>relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots
>>are subject to,
>>or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward
>>to?
>>
>>I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to
>>know if there are
>>others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink
>>up to 48 ounces of
>>water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours,
>>and I fly in
>>eastern Pennsylvania.
>>
>>-John
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Udo]

On Jan 25, 12:41 pm, "jcarlyle" > wrote:
> Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need for an in-flight
> relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots are subject to,
> or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward to?
>
> I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to know if there are
> others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink up to 48 ounces of
> water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours, and I fly in
> eastern Pennsylvania.
>
> -John

John
You are very lucky, that your body has that ability. Many man at your
age start having problems with frequent urination even when not flying.
I am 60 years old. I for one have to get up 3 times during the night.
This is caused due to the swelling of the prostrate. Through drugs it
can be reduce to twice a night for the moment. It is caused by swelling
of the prostrate, which impinges on the bladder. Not only does the
bladder get smaller, but it also affects the flow rate and the bladder
muscle. In most cases it is a benign swelling of the prostrate. There
is an other potential risk and that is a bladder infection because the
bladder does not empty completely. This makes it even more important to
drink more fluid then normal.

As to your iron bladder and Kidneys. I knew a glider pilot who prided
him self of being the first one to launch and the last one to land with
out drinking and peeing.
Guess what, he had total kidney failure after 30 years. He was in his
mid sixties. As a side note he excelled in sports as well, he still did
competitive Figure skating in his age group just prior to the bad news.

Regards
Udo

[Marc Ramsey]

jcarlyle wrote:
> Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need for an in-flight
> relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots are subject to,
> or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward to?
>
> I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to know if there are
> others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink up to 48 ounces of
> water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours, and I fly in
> eastern Pennsylvania.

I can be airborne for up to 6 hours, too, without resorting to the
relief system, but doing so leaves me noticeably dehydrated. Perhaps
this is a more serious concern out here in California/Nevada, but there
have been a number of accidents almost certainly due to pilot
disorientation resulting from dehydration. I carry a 96 ounce
Camelback, and if I'm properly hydrating it will be nearly empty after 6
hours, and I will have peed once or twice...

Marc

[Eric Greenwell]

jcarlyle wrote:
> Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need for an in-flight
> relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots are subject to,
> or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward to?
>
> I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to know if there are
> others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink up to 48 ounces of
> water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours, and I fly in
> eastern Pennsylvania.

Here's what I've heard from soaring physicians. You are likely
dehydrated enough to affect your flying if:

1) you aren't urinating every 2 or 3 hours, and/or...
2) your urine is a dark yellow instead of pale yellow

My guess is you are taking off already dehydrated, so even drinking 48
ounces isn't enough to hydrate you during a 6 hour flight. Personally, I
am noticeably dehydrated after 6 hours in the cockpit in the summer if I
drink only 48 oz. I'm 64.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[jcarlyle]

Thanks, Nyal. My seat is reclined, but perhaps the "changes" I can look
forward to haven't yet happened.

Hartley, I'm sure I wouldn't like a ruptured bladder. But if one
doesn't "have to go" then there shouldn't be any danger, correct? I've
had 5 hour flights where I drank as described, landed, disassembled the
glider and put it away, driven an hour to get home, had dinner, and
only then did I feel the "urge". Just lucky? Or pushing it?

-John

On Jan 25, 1:12 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> You would not like the results of a ruptured bladder if you crash on
> landing!
> It can be (and has been) fatal, as it is sometimes not detected till too
> late.

[01-- Zero One]

Based on the number of cross country or contest gliders I have seen with
pee tubes/systems, and more conversations and anecdotal experience than
you can imagine, I think you are one in a thousand. Virtually every
cross country and contest pilot I know has a pee system and uses it.



Dehydration, whether you need to pee or not, is a killer. Drink
_plenty_ of the right liquids, pee when needed. Period.



Larry Goddard

"01" USA



"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
ups.com:

> Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've never felt any need for an in-flight
> relief system. Is this urge to go something most pilots are subject to,
> or just a sub-set? Or is it something I can look forward to?
>
> I'm not trying to start anything, I'd just like to know if there are
> others like me. For the record, I'm 58, I'll drink up to 48 ounces of
> water during flights, I've been airborne up to 6 hours, and I fly in
> eastern Pennsylvania.
>
> -John

[jcarlyle]

Udo, Marc, Eric - thanks for your inputs. I looked up "symptoms of
dehydration" with Google and found this:

Symptoms
* Dry or sticky mouth
* Low or no urine output; concentrated urine appears dark yellow
* Not producing tears
* Sunken eyes
Signs and tests (from a physical exam)
* Low blood pressure
* Blood pressure that drops when you go from lying down to standing
* Rapid heart rate
* Poor skin turgor (pinched skin doesn't spring right back into
position)

Udo, I can sleep for 8 hours without a bathroom visit, but my father
couldn't starting at about 70. Marc, you say "noticably dehydrated" -
what symptoms did you exhibit? Eric, my last bathroom visit before
flight usually produces a goodly amount of pale urine and I don't have
a dry mouth, so I don't think I'm dehydrated before flight. I'll keep
alert for signs, though.

-John

[Jack]

jcarlyle wrote:

> But if one
> doesn't "have to go" then there shouldn't be any danger, correct? I've
> had 5 hour flights where I drank as described, landed, disassembled the
> glider and put it away, driven an hour to get home, had dinner, and
> only then did I feel the "urge". Just lucky? Or pushing it?


I use the same guidance I give the kids before car trips, etc., when
they always complain, "But, I don't have to," and that I've used in
forty years of all kinds of flying:

I say, "Go when you CAN, not when you have to."

Safety, schedules, and health are all better maintained that way. Why
push it, and why build habit patterns that will make it tougher to
adjust when your body does begin to show the common problems of aging?


Jack

[Eric Greenwell]

jcarlyle wrote:
> Udo, Marc, Eric - thanks for your inputs. I looked up "symptoms of
> dehydration" with Google and found this:
>
> Symptoms
> * Dry or sticky mouth
> * Low or no urine output; concentrated urine appears dark yellow
> * Not producing tears
> * Sunken eyes
> Signs and tests (from a physical exam)
> * Low blood pressure
> * Blood pressure that drops when you go from lying down to standing
> * Rapid heart rate
> * Poor skin turgor (pinched skin doesn't spring right back into
> position)
>
> Udo, I can sleep for 8 hours without a bathroom visit, but my father
> couldn't starting at about 70. Marc, you say "noticably dehydrated" -
> what symptoms did you exhibit? Eric, my last bathroom visit before
> flight usually produces a goodly amount of pale urine and I don't have
> a dry mouth, so I don't think I'm dehydrated before flight.

How about after the flight? If it's still pale, and there is plenty of
it, you might be fine. Still, the same doctors tell me you might not be
aware of the loss in ability, both physical and mental, so I'd suggest
you talk to a soaring physician about it. I know you are reluctant to
give up the convenience of flying without urinating, but 6 hours (!) is
a long time between urinations, and suggests you aren't hydrated enough,
even though you feel fine.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[5Z]

On Jan 25, 12:30 pm, "01-- Zero One" > wrote:
> Dehydration, whether you need to pee or not, is a killer. Drink
> _plenty_ of the right liquids, pee when needed. Period.

And... a hard landing (or crash) with a full bladder can also be really
bad when it ruptures.

-Tom

[Marc Ramsey]

jcarlyle wrote:
> Udo, Marc, Eric - thanks for your inputs. I looked up "symptoms of
> dehydration" with Google and found this:
>
> Symptoms
> * Dry or sticky mouth
> * Low or no urine output; concentrated urine appears dark yellow
> * Not producing tears
> * Sunken eyes
> Signs and tests (from a physical exam)
> * Low blood pressure
> * Blood pressure that drops when you go from lying down to standing
> * Rapid heart rate
> * Poor skin turgor (pinched skin doesn't spring right back into
> position)

For me, the key symptoms of significant dehydration are cramps (in my
legs and fingers), a dryish mouth, and a persistent headache by the end
of the flight. I used to think this was due to being mildly hypoxic,
but over time I learned that these symptoms directly correlate with the
amount of water I consume. If I let things go to far, my landing will
usually be, uh, interesting...

Marc

[jcarlyle]

Larry, Jack, Eric, Tom - Thanks (again) for responding. You've
convinced me I'm pushing my luck (and that my luck isn't going to
remain the same fro much longer, anyway). I'll get another Camelbak to
have more than 48 ounces of water on board this season.

But the urine removal system is a problem, as it's my understanding
that the Texas condoms use adhesive - and I'm allergic to adhesive! I
guess I'll be bring some freezer bags with shredded Depends in them,
and figuring out the acrobatics necessary to "go" into a bag while in a
butt low, semi-reclined position. What fun....

Anyone have any good advice for "on-board" storage systems and
in-flight use of same (so I don't fly into the ground, unharnesed, with
lowered trousers, holding the wrong stick)?

=John

[HL Falbaum]

"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks, Nyal. My seat is reclined, but perhaps the "changes" I can look
> forward to haven't yet happened.
>
> Hartley, I'm sure I wouldn't like a ruptured bladder. But if one
> doesn't "have to go" then there shouldn't be any danger, correct? I've
> had 5 hour flights where I drank as described, landed, disassembled the
> glider and put it away, driven an hour to get home, had dinner, and
> only then did I feel the "urge". Just lucky? Or pushing it?
>
> -John
>
> On Jan 25, 1:12 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
>> You would not like the results of a ruptured bladder if you crash on
>> landing!
>> It can be (and has been) fatal, as it is sometimes not detected till too
>> late.
>

John:

The "urge" has little to do with anything important. The bladder gets the
"urge" when the wall distends (stretches) a certain amount--different for
different people. If the mild urge is ignored, the bladder wall muscles
relax somewhat, and the sphincter (a muscular valve--visualize an O-ring
that can contract and become thicker in wall and smaller in diameter)
tightens. The urge goes away for a while, and comes back later as the cycle
is repeated. The sphincter, however, is slow to relax, and the tighter it
has become, the longer it takes to allow flow. This is the cause of
"hesitancy" ( slow starting stream) and decreased force and volume of
stream.

At the end of one of these flights, (starting with an empty bladder and pale
urine) is the volume over 200cc ( about 6 oz) and is it pale? If so, you
are pushing the bladder volume envelope. If not, you are pushing the
dehydration envelope.

There are usually no symptoms to dehydration at first. Thirst begins when
you are about a quart low. The kidneys have an "obligitory" loss rate, and
30 cc per hour is required just to balance that. In addition, there is an
"insensible" loss rate of about one liter per day at std atmosphere--i.e.
15deg C and sea level and at rest. Higer temp and altitude and more rapid
breathing increase it. It is water in exhaled air, and evaporated from the
skin without feeling wet. It takes a while for water to be absorbed from the
intestine and distributed through the body. Hydrate well the night before
and the morning of the flight. BTW alcohol and caffiene are
diuretic--causing water loss. So Beer, even the "good stuff" doesn't count.

Hartley Falbaum

[Tony Verhulst]

> But the urine removal system is a problem, as it's my understanding
> that the Texas condoms use adhesive - and I'm allergic to adhesive!


Some have adhesives but not all. I just bought some Kendal (brand
name)Texas catheters that use an "elastic foam strap" instead. See
http://tinyurl.com/24cdrm . I'll be giving it a try when the season
starts in northeast US.

Tony V

[01-- Zero One]

John,



Another option would be to use one of the "Dick Sticks"... a turkey
baster bulb with the top cut out (forming a sort of funnel) fitted to a
rigid tube that you push down through a small hole in the fuselage...
but only when you need it. You pee directly into the bulb and it is
sucked out by the airflow around the tube.



Others here can give you further info about this option. I use the
external catheter and drain method. Never had a problem with it...
except for the time fire ants crawled up inside the tube before
takeoff.... But that's another story!! :-)



Larry

"01" USA





"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
oups.com:

> Larry, Jack, Eric, Tom - Thanks (again) for responding. You've
> convinced me I'm pushing my luck (and that my luck isn't going to
> remain the same fro much longer, anyway). I'll get another Camelbak to
> have more than 48 ounces of water on board this season.
>
> But the urine removal system is a problem, as it's my understanding
> that the Texas condoms use adhesive - and I'm allergic to adhesive! I
> guess I'll be bring some freezer bags with shredded Depends in them,
> and figuring out the acrobatics necessary to "go" into a bag while in a
> butt low, semi-reclined position. What fun....
>
> Anyone have any good advice for "on-board" storage systems and
> in-flight use of same (so I don't fly into the ground, unharnesed, with
> lowered trousers, holding the wrong stick)?
>
> =John

[g l i d e r s t u d]

Water is cheap, increase in insurance premium is not.

I normally carry (3) 100oz camal packs. 2 for flying 1 for landing out.

My S.W.A.G. is that the extra drag from the peetube is far less than
the points given up at the end of the contest because you are getting
dehydrated and fatigued over the period of the contest.

My 2 cents

[5Z]

On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, "jcarlyle" > wrote:
> Anyone have any good advice for "on-board" storage systems and
> in-flight use of same (so I don't fly into the ground, unharnesed, with
> lowered trousers, holding the wrong stick)?

For years I've used "Travel John" as sold by Sporty's and other places.
Finally this year took the plunge and set up a catheter system to an
onboard bag.

Travel John advantage is the very small package, nice plastic funnel
and once filled and allowed to gel, I just chuck it forward by my feet.
Be sure to always have at least 3 - just in case! It's a real bummer
if you have nowhere to go if you drink a bit too much in flight.

Disadvantage is that it takes a bit of practice to use it well and it
is a bit distracting for about a minute or so between prep, peeing and
cleanup. Seems I always have to go when I'm low or in crowded
airspace. It also helps if the ship will fly itself for a few turns.
My ASW-20B and ASH-26E are nice stable platforms so that helped.

With the catheter system, I really didn't want to hack on the ship for
external drainage, so am using an old CamelBack bag in one of my pants
legs. It's 72oz capacity means I should never completely fill it in a
day's flying :) Be sure to wear loose pants.

-Tom

[Nyal Williams]

The turkey baster solution is the best one, but there
is a better way to make it work.

Our Discus came with this arrangement; we were persuaded
that the urine would migrate along the bottom of the
fuselage and over time would find its way up into the
bottom of the rudder post and oxidize the metal, making
it lose material and strength. We used a long flexible
tube attached to the turkey baster and ran the tube
beside the stick down into the wheel well and attached
it to the inside of one of the gear doors. It is just
long enough to touch the ground and it retracts with
the gear door (be sure that it is routed such that
it does not bind during the retraction process).

The problem is to remember to lower the gear, and then
to raise it again. Those still worried about the rudder
post could slip a little to the side opposite the tube's
gear door. An advantage of this tube is that you can
hear the Bernoulli effect as it suctions all the urine
out of the tube. Be sure that the tube and baster
reach far up enough to give some flexibility, and hold
the baster up a bit when finished so that there is
no air trap in the upper part of the tube.

At 00:30 26 January 2007, 01-- Zero One wrote:
>John,
>
>
>
>Another option would be to use one of the 'Dick Sticks'...
>a turkey
>baster bulb with the top cut out (forming a sort of
>funnel) fitted to a
>rigid tube that you push down through a small hole
>in the fuselage...
>but only when you need it. You pee directly into the
>bulb and it is
>sucked out by the airflow around the tube.
>
>
>
>Others here can give you further info about this option.
> I use the
>external catheter and drain method. Never had a problem
>with it...
>except for the time fire ants crawled up inside the
>tube before
>takeoff.... But that's another story!! :-)
>
>
>
>Larry
>
>'01' USA
>
>
>
>
>
>'jcarlyle' wrote in message
oups.com:
>
>> Larry, Jack, Eric, Tom - Thanks (again) for responding.
>>You've
>> convinced me I'm pushing my luck (and that my luck
>>isn't going to
>> remain the same fro much longer, anyway). I'll get
>>another Camelbak to
>> have more than 48 ounces of water on board this season.
>>
>> But the urine removal system is a problem, as it's
>>my understanding
>> that the Texas condoms use adhesive - and I'm allergic
>>to adhesive! I
>> guess I'll be bring some freezer bags with shredded
>>Depends in them,
>> and figuring out the acrobatics necessary to 'go'
>>into a bag while in a
>> butt low, semi-reclined position. What fun....
>>
>> Anyone have any good advice for 'on-board' storage
>>systems and
>> in-flight use of same (so I don't fly into the ground,
>>unharnesed, with
>> lowered trousers, holding the wrong stick)?
>>
>> =John
>
>

[bagmaker]

does the allergy cause swelling? It may be a bonus :-)

check the Australian GCV info on these links, re-created from articles by Tom Spiesser and Karl & Iris Striedieck:

http://www.gliding-benalla.org/flying/health/to_pee.xhtml
http://www.gliding-benalla.org/flying/health/aussie_way.xhtml

Bagger

[jcarlyle]

Marc, Hartley, Tony, Larry, gliderstud, Tom, Nyal:

Many thanks! I've gone from thinking I didn't have a problem to knowing
that I do, and also that I have choices for solving the problem.

Not sure which solution I'll adopt. Perhaps I'll start with the
Sporty's Travel John and do a trial on the ground to see just how much
my 5 point harness, parachute straps, zippers, and butt low position
affect my performance. If that fails, the adhesive-free Texas condoms
Tony linked to, hooked up to the old Camelbak up the trouser leg
suggested by Tom, sounds pretty good.

Guys, thanks very much for taking the time to provide pertinent and
very useful information.

-John

[ContestID67]

Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.

[Graeme Cant]

I'm the same as John. I'm eight years older but I've rarely needed to
pee in a glider even thought I've gone to some trouble to make sure I
can if I need to. I may be dehydrated but nobody's yet suggested that
my behaviour warrants that diagnosis. I usually fly in ground
temperatures in the high 30s and drink lots of water. Age will probably
catch up with me soon but this has been a lifetime pattern so far.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> How about after the flight? If it's still pale, and there is plenty of
> it, you might be fine. Still, the same doctors tell me you might not be
> aware of the loss in ability, both physical and mental, so I'd suggest
> you talk to a soaring physician about it. I know you are reluctant to
> give up the convenience of flying without urinating, but 6 hours (!) is
> a long time between urinations, and suggests you aren't hydrated enough,
> even though you feel fine.

Eric, I've never asked a doctor for his advice yet who didn't think I
needed it. I don't think John has a problem. He 'might' not be aware
of a lot of things but he's probably perfectly fit. Most physiological
functions have a wide range for 'normal' and urination is no exception.
A couple of days ago I sat for a good 6 hours in a stadium watching
three Grand Slam tennis matches and then walked home and had a cup of
coffee before I had any urge to pee.

YMMV (literally)!

GC

[Graeme Cant]

jcarlyle wrote:
> Marc, Hartley, Tony, Larry, gliderstud, Tom, Nyal:
>
> Many thanks! I've gone from thinking I didn't have a problem to knowing
> that I do...

John! Whoa!! Not one piece of the advice you've received has any
authority whatsoever! You've lived this way for years and now you're
going to re-train a set of neuro-muscular patterns that every one of
your 'advisers' envies! Stop it!

All they've said is stuff you know already - dehydration is bad, drink
lots of water. You knew that and you do it. They pee more often than
you so they've defined YOU as abnormal. Rubbish. You and I are very
lucky men. Just smile and accept it.

Yes, a ruptured bladder is no fun but I bet neither Harley nor Tom plan
their comfort stops on long car trips on the basis of avoiding an
accident with a full bladder. The reality is they HAVE to have a
comfort stop - flying or driving or just sitting watching football -
every two or three hours. You and I don't. Count yourself lucky. I do.

Eric MIGHT have asked a doctor who said you MIGHT be dehydrated and you
MIGHT not know it. You're going to change your life on the basis of a
hearsay triple MIGHT??

Here's MY advice. Set your glider up so you CAN pee in flight and then
go on just as you are. Say to yourself, "My bladder is bigger and
stronger than other people's which is entirely consonant with more
visible aspects of my urino-genital apparatus". :)

Happy flying
GC

> Not sure which solution I'll adopt. Perhaps I'll start with the
> Sporty's Travel John and do a trial on the ground to see just how much
> my 5 point harness, parachute straps, zippers, and butt low position
> affect my performance. If that fails, the adhesive-free Texas condoms
> Tony linked to, hooked up to the old Camelbak up the trouser leg
> suggested by Tom, sounds pretty good.
>
> Guys, thanks very much for taking the time to provide pertinent and
> very useful information.
>
> -John
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Graeme Cant wrote:
> jcarlyle wrote:
>> Marc, Hartley, Tony, Larry, gliderstud, Tom, Nyal:
>>
>> Many thanks! I've gone from thinking I didn't have a problem to knowing
>> that I do...
>
> John! Whoa!! Not one piece of the advice you've received has any
> authority whatsoever! You've lived this way for years and now you're
> going to re-train a set of neuro-muscular patterns that every one of
> your 'advisers' envies! Stop it!

Graeme, all anybody is suggesting is that he consider the possibility
that he is not drinking enough. That is all. If he feels perfectly
fine at the end of these flights, then there is no need to change
anything. Otherwise, he should try drinking more. What I found,
personally, is that dehydration is rather insidious, my flying starts to
deteriorate before I have noticeable symptoms...

Marc

[Eric Greenwell]

Graeme Cant wrote:

> Eric MIGHT have asked a doctor who said you MIGHT be dehydrated and you
> MIGHT not know it. You're going to change your life on the basis of a
> hearsay triple MIGHT??

I didn't ask any doctors about John - some of the "you" I used in my
reply to John was a generic "you". My apologies for an ambiquously
written post.

I have listened to several physicians over the years, at conventions,
contests, and talked with them face to face, about dehydration, it's
symptoms, and it's dangers. John MIGHT be very exceptional, as you
suggest, but it's such an important safety issue he should seek advice
from a knowledgeable person if he wishes to continue as is, and I
suggested he ask a soaring physician about it. They are more likely to
understand the stresses of soaring than a non-soaring physician, and
most clubs include a few, so it's easy to do.

Are you a physician? Are you knowledgeable about the effects of
dehydration on soaring pilots in general, and know John's health,
fitness, and habits enough to know he is flying safely? If not, I hope
you will seek out a physician or two and ask some questions about
dehydration, before suggesting another pilot is "just fine". And, maybe
the doctor will have some useful advice for you, too.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[01-- Zero One]

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
:

> jcarlyle wrote:
> > Marc, Hartley, Tony, Larry, gliderstud, Tom, Nyal:
> >
> > Many thanks! I've gone from thinking I didn't have a problem to knowing
> > that I do...
>
> John! Whoa!! Not one piece of the advice you've received has any
> authority whatsoever! You've lived this way for years and now you're
> going to re-train a set of neuro-muscular patterns that every one of
> your 'advisers' envies! Stop it!





Actually, Graeme, you can take the advice I gave and do whatever you
want with it.



But there are others who answered him who, while they are not in the
habit of bragging about their accomplishments, are extraordinarily
authoritative... such as physician, flight surgeon, etc. I would give
whatever they say a great deal of authority.



Frankly, I don't remember a single piece of sketchy advice among all
those responding to John in this thread.



Larry Goddard

"01" USA

[Maciek]

Have you ever tried an external catheter? You can buy it at drugstore. It's
looks like a kind of condom, byt it has a pipe at tip. It's used for
patients that cant get up from the bed and go pee. I know some pilots use
it, and they say it's comfortable.
Maciek

[Stealth Pilot]

On 25 Jan 2007 19:49:14 -0800, "ContestID67" >
wrote:

>Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
>network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
>topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
>afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.

loss of cognitive function with age possibly.

presenile dementia.

testosterone based ****ing matches where the abuser feels better for
having let the other guy know just how inferior he is.

frustration due to lack of activity in the area of interest.

I think that psychology students should be encouraged to read usenet
to build their clinical sensibilities.

I'm not a psych student or practitioner btw but it is fascinating to
watch some of the threads and to see how the discussions morph to
something that the posters actually want to discuss but havent the
courage to initiate.

You are not the only one who notices these things. :-)

btw I'm posting an answer to your question directly, not morphing the
discussion even further :-)
Stealth Pilot

[Stealth Pilot]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:18:14 GMT, Eric Greenwell
> wrote:

>Graeme Cant wrote:
>
>> Eric MIGHT have asked a doctor who said you MIGHT be dehydrated and you
>> MIGHT not know it. You're going to change your life on the basis of a
>> hearsay triple MIGHT??
>
>I didn't ask any doctors about John - some of the "you" I used in my
>reply to John was a generic "you". My apologies for an ambiquously
>written post.
>
>I have listened to several physicians over the years, at conventions,
>contests, and talked with them face to face, about dehydration, it's
>symptoms, and it's dangers. John MIGHT be very exceptional, as you
>suggest, but it's such an important safety issue he should seek advice
>from a knowledgeable person if he wishes to continue as is, and I
>suggested he ask a soaring physician about it. They are more likely to
>understand the stresses of soaring than a non-soaring physician, and
>most clubs include a few, so it's easy to do.
>
>Are you a physician? Are you knowledgeable about the effects of
>dehydration on soaring pilots in general, and know John's health,
>fitness, and habits enough to know he is flying safely? If not, I hope
>you will seek out a physician or two and ask some questions about
>dehydration, before suggesting another pilot is "just fine". And, maybe
>the doctor will have some useful advice for you, too.


the idea of cognitive fall off with dehydration isnt a bogus idea.
the reality though is that we humans arent the same and we vary
through an enormous range of characteristics that are "normal".
what is normal for one is often abnormal for others.

the point I suppose is does the original poster's cognitive ability
fall off? can he land with precision after a flight? can he do any nav
calcs in his head at the end of a flight as well as he can at the
beginning of a flight? if he can the *he* doesnt have a problem.

many other things have an effect on cognitive ability in flight.
diminishing blood sugar levels will turn the head to wood just as well
as dehydration. I havent seen mention of that in the thread.

on the other end of the scale have you tried landing in a crosswind
when the bladder is in pain through overfilling?
trust me your legs dont work no matter how much you want them to.

see the world in balance. dont hone in on one understood factor and
think that that explains all.
ymmv
Stealth Pilot

[toad]

> But the urine removal system is a problem, as it's my understanding
> that the Texas condoms use adhesive - and I'm allergic to adhesive!

The brand of Texas catheters that I use do not have adhesive onto the
skin, they have an elastic foam strip that wraps around the outside of
the catheter. No ouch at all !

Todd Smith
3S

PS I've had to pee often ever since I started soaring XC and I was 35
at the time.

[5Z]

On Jan 25, 8:03 pm, "jcarlyle" > wrote:
> Not sure which solution I'll adopt. Perhaps I'll start with the
> Sporty's Travel John and do a trial on the ground to see just how much
> my 5 point harness, parachute straps, zippers, and butt low position
> affect my performance.

Be sure not to unbuckle the 4 primary belts! I just loosen everything
then stand on the rudders to raise myself a bit. The worst thing that
could happen with loose or unbuckled straps is a negative gust or bump
of the stick (glider's) and you go flying out through the canopy...

This season with the catheter has proven to me how much more convenient
it is to just "relax" any time I feel like it whatever the flying
conditions are.

Now, when I'm on final glide, I crank up the O2 for a clear head and
empty my bladder so the approach and landing can get my full
concentration. :)

-Tom

[jcarlyle]

It appears that Google ate my original post - apologies in advance if
it suddenly reappears!

Graeme, sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not intending to change my
flying lifestyle; I'm simply going to get prepared for an in-flight
urination session using one of two potential on-board systems.
Hopefully I'll not need such a system, like you, but at least I'll
have it.

Why take action on the basis of responses in this thread? First, it's
easy. Second, I've never consciously evaluated at the end of a flight
either my urine output/color or my mental/physiological state - I may
be overlooking something in the residual euphoria of flying that could
hurt me. Third, the responders have not just given offhand comments,
plus they represent a lot of experience and at least one clearly has
had medical training. Fourth, being a low time soaring pilot, I'd
much rather learn from other's experience than learn it myself the
hard way.

Eric, there are a couple of physicians in my soaring club, and I'll
have a word with them when I see them. As you say, everyone is
different. Fifteen years ago I worked outside for 6 weeks in the
Australian outback, where it got to 50C during the day. I drank 2
gallons or more of water during the 10 hour work day, but never
urinated except in the morning and after the evening meal. I never had
any mental acuity problems (I was doing math, interpreting data and
programming computers) and had no physical problems (cramps, lethargy)
at all during the entire time. Perhaps it's because I sweat like
crazy - during that job my clothes were always saturated with water.
But certainly no one else with me acted the same!

Thanks again to all who responded to my questions.

-John

[Shawn]

Stealth Pilot wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2007 19:49:14 -0800, "ContestID67" >
> wrote:
>
>> Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
>> network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
>> topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
>> afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.
>
> loss of cognitive function with age possibly.
>
> presenile dementia.
>
> testosterone based ****ing matches

Good choice of words considering the subject ;-)

> I'm not a psych student or practitioner btw but it is fascinating to
> watch some of the threads and to see how the discussions morph to
> something that the posters actually want to discuss but havent the
> courage to initiate.
>
> You are not the only one who notices these things. :-)

They should also study the psychology of anonymous posters.
:-)



Shawn

[Jack]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

> ...the idea of cognitive fall off with dehydration isnt a bogus idea.

> the point I suppose is does the original poster's cognitive ability
> fall off?

> many other things have an effect on cognitive ability in flight.
> diminishing blood sugar levels will turn the head to wood just as well
> as dehydration.

> on the other end of the scale have you tried landing in a crosswind
> when the bladder is in pain through overfilling?
> trust me your legs dont work no matter how much you want them to.
>
> see the world in balance. dont hone in on one understood factor and
> think that that explains all.

Very true, SP.

The problem with cognitive ability self-analysis is that our ability to
be objective diminishes rapidly just when we need it most. This is well
demonstrated during altitude-chamber sessions for example. Oxygen
deprivation, fatigue, low blood sugar, dehydration, the effects of
smoking and alcohol consumption -- all these diminish our ability to
self-evaluate just as they diminish our other abilities.

We have checklists for preflight preparation and for various phases of
flight operations. We ought also to follow a physiological checklist
that is based on both sound medical advice and the experience of pilots
gained over many decades.

It is better to let our egos be stroked in other ways than in trumpeting
the size (or insensitivity) of our bladders, or the apparent divergence
of our own special physiological qualities from those of the plebeians
with whom we are surrounded. Success comes from minimizing uncertainty
and risk in as many ways as possible. The overall joy/hassle ratio then
improves substantially.


Jack

[Papa3]

On Jan 25, 5:08 pm, "jcarlyle" > wrote:
>
> Anyone have any good advice for "on-board" storage systems and
> in-flight use of same (so I don't fly into the ground, unharnesed, with
> lowered trousers, holding the wrong stick)?
>
> =John

John,

I've used pretty much all of the methods over the years:

- Zip loc baggy
- Leg bag
- Pee tube dumping overboard

I've settled on the last one as being the easiest, but a word on the
middle one. When I used to teach with Freedom's Wings where many of
the pilots are parapalegic, leg bags were a common sight. If, as you
describe, you don't have copious amounts of pee to deal with, then a
leg bag may be a good solution. They are designed to be leak proof and
easy to empty/wash, plus they come with the plumbing required to hook
up to a Texas Cathether. They come in various sizes, but a quart
might be a good start for you. A google on "leg bag" will return
pages and pages of results.

FWIW, I find that I pee copiously during long flights; probably upwards
of 3-4 times in a typical 6 hour flight. I frequently emply a 64
ounce main MSR water bag and get well into the 32 ounce backup.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 Pee 3

[Eric Greenwell]

ContestID67 wrote:
> Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
> network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
> topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
> afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.

It's because almost no one thinks to start a new thread or even change
the subject line, but just clicks Reply. "Grasshopper, look into you own
soul for why you did neither, and you will find the explanation."

And as everyone who had done a search on the newsgroup knows, you better
tell the search engine to look in the body also, and not just the subject!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[jcarlyle]

Erik, thanks for the search terms. Those, along with the link that Tony
Verhulst supplied, will be of great help if I have to go to a Texas
condom/leg bag solution.

I guess I'll be following the same path you cited. Not too sure how
much hassle the Travel John bag will be to use while "loosely" strapped
in, nor am I sure that my sensitive skin will tolerate a Texas condom
(even one without adhesive) for 5-6 hours.

Never thought about the urinary plight of the wheel chair bound; hats
off to them for their ability to cope while remaining mainly cheerful.

-John

[5Z]

On Jan 26, 12:38 pm, "Papa3" > wrote:
> FWIW, I find that I pee copiously during long flights; probably upwards
> of 3-4 times in a typical 6 hour flight. I frequently emply a 64
> ounce main MSR water bag and get well into the 32 ounce backup.

That's why I decided to use an old 72oz Camelback bladder as my
reservoir :) So far only used it on "shorter" flights of 5+ hours with
one up to 7 hours. I find the container is at least 50% full at the
end of the day. I have a couple 100oz Camelbacks for drinking and
generally drain the first after 6 or so hours.

Anyway, for John, the Travel John (heh) is probably the best solution
as he is not (yet) in need of going on most flights. The adhesive
catheter is not really reusable and adds a few minutes of hassle before
and after each flight.

-Tom

[Stealth Pilot]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:21:40 -0700, Shawn
> wrote:


>>
>> You are not the only one who notices these things. :-)
>
>They should also study the psychology of anonymous posters.
>:-)
>
it is not always ominous you know. a nom de plume allows one to
separate out the personal views from the sometimes different public
posture. (think of someone holding public office who can and will
influence direction but must maintain the current percieved position
to keep up trust in an organisations activities)

now we are drifting :-)

Stealth Pilot

[Nyal Williams]

At 12:18 27 January 2007, Stealth Pilot wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:21:40 -0700, Shawn
> wrote:

>it is not always ominous you know. a nom de plume allows
>one to
>separate out the personal views from the sometimes
>different public
>posture. (think of someone holding public office who
>can and will
>influence direction but must maintain the current percieved
>position
>to keep up trust in an organisations activities)
>
>now we are drifting :-)
>
>Stealth Pilot


Dear Stealth Pilot,

I consider the above to be ominous!

Sincerely,

Gnome de Pluehm

[Shawn]

Stealth Pilot wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:21:40 -0700, Shawn
> > wrote:
>
>
>>> You are not the only one who notices these things. :-)
>> They should also study the psychology of anonymous posters.
>> :-)
>>
> it is not always ominous you know. a nom de plume allows one to
> separate out the personal views from the sometimes different public
> posture. (think of someone holding public office who can and will
> influence direction but must maintain the current percieved position
> to keep up trust in an organisations activities)

Interesting...and how does this make you feel? ;-)

> now we are drifting :-)

It's snowing again in Colorado. I haven't flown in RL since the
beginning of December and my wife kicked me off her computer and Condor
(the only Windozable computer in the house). So yeah, drifting a bit.


Shawn

[Graeme Cant]

jcarlyle wrote:
> ...Fifteen years ago I worked outside for 6 weeks in the
> Australian outback, where it got to 50C during the day. I drank 2
> gallons or more of water during the 10 hour work day, but never
> urinated except in the morning and after the evening meal. I never had
> any mental acuity problems (I was doing math, interpreting data and
> programming computers) and had no physical problems (cramps, lethargy)
> at all during the entire time. Perhaps it's because I sweat like
> crazy - during that job my clothes were always saturated with water.
> But certainly no one else with me acted the same!

John, I think you've got to the nub of the matter and it's not occurred
to me before. I also sweat profusely and I believe you're correct to
connect that with low urine production rates.

An army doctor many years ago commented on my "hyperhidrosis" (IIRC) and
I've generally found it to be a problem but maybe it has its upside.
Perhaps a medically qualified person would care to comment but it would
seem (perhaps simplistically) that if much of our water intake is being
lost in sweat, there will be less urine produced without changing our
body's hydration level.

Perhaps we won't reach the scene of the accident with a full bladder
after all! The comments about ruptured bladders didn't seem relevant to
me when I read them because - like you - I don't sit there with a
distended bladder exerting superhuman willpower. I simply seem to
produce low volumes of urine. Maybe we just lose the water in other ways?

In any case, I'm rather pleased to think that what has been a problem
may also have its upside. :)

Cheers,
GC

>
> Thanks again to all who responded to my questions.
>
> -John
>

[HL Falbaum]

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...
> jcarlyle wrote:
>> ...Fifteen years ago I worked outside for 6 weeks in the
>> Australian outback, >
> John, I think you've got to the nub of the matter >
> > lost in sweat, there will be less urine produced without changing our
> body's hydration level.
>
> Perhaps we won't reach the scene of the accident with a full bladder after
> all! The comments about ruptured bladders didn't seem relevant to me when
> I read them because - like you - I don't sit there with a distended
> bladder exerting superhuman willpower. I simply seem to produce low
> volumes of urine. Maybe we just lose the water in other ways?
>
> In any case, I'm rather pleased to think that what has been a problem may
> also have its upside. :)
>
> Cheers,
> GC
>> -John
>>

Guys:
Before you go rejoicing in the benefits of low urine output, I sugest you
learn some basic renal physiology.
Try Google search or WebMD-search on 'renal physiology' and tell us what you
find. Might also try the "USAF Flight Surgeon's Handbook"---a Google search
will get you there.

Hartley Falbaum

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

See Thirst and the Drinking Pilot by Dan Johnson
http://amygdala.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/Thirst.SoaringMag.html

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It appears that Google ate my original post - apologies in advance if
> it suddenly reappears!
>
> Graeme, sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not intending to change my
> flying lifestyle; I'm simply going to get prepared for an in-flight
> urination session using one of two potential on-board systems.
> Hopefully I'll not need such a system, like you, but at least I'll
> have it.
>
> Why take action on the basis of responses in this thread? First, it's
> easy. Second, I've never consciously evaluated at the end of a flight
> either my urine output/color or my mental/physiological state - I may
> be overlooking something in the residual euphoria of flying that could
> hurt me. Third, the responders have not just given offhand comments,
> plus they represent a lot of experience and at least one clearly has
> had medical training. Fourth, being a low time soaring pilot, I'd
> much rather learn from other's experience than learn it myself the
> hard way.
>
> Eric, there are a couple of physicians in my soaring club, and I'll
> have a word with them when I see them. As you say, everyone is
> different. Fifteen years ago I worked outside for 6 weeks in the
> Australian outback, where it got to 50C during the day. I drank 2
> gallons or more of water during the 10 hour work day, but never
> urinated except in the morning and after the evening meal. I never had
> any mental acuity problems (I was doing math, interpreting data and
> programming computers) and had no physical problems (cramps, lethargy)
> at all during the entire time. Perhaps it's because I sweat like
> crazy - during that job my clothes were always saturated with water.
> But certainly no one else with me acted the same!
>
> Thanks again to all who responded to my questions.
>
> -John
>

[P. Corbett]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ContestID67 wrote:
>> Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
>> network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
>> topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
>> afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.
>
> It's because almost no one thinks to start a new thread or even change
> the subject line, but just clicks Reply. "Grasshopper, look into you own
> soul for why you did neither, and you will find the explanation."
>
> And as everyone who had done a search on the newsgroup knows, you better
> tell the search engine to look in the body also, and not just the subject!
>

Okay, this should get us back on track...I have solved the the need for
a pee system in my glider by using plenty of tape and I can report, the
thicker the better.

Paul
ZZ

[Graeme Cant]

HL Falbaum wrote:

> Guys:
> Before you go rejoicing in the benefits of low urine output, I sugest you
> learn some basic renal physiology.

No, Hartley. Every time I answer one of your fire and brimstone
warnings, you do a shifty shift to another topic. Let's stick to the
subject. Why is it especially dangerous to have an averagely full
bladder on a normal gliding flight?

> Try Google search or WebMD-search on 'renal physiology' and tell us what you
> find. Might also try the "USAF Flight Surgeon's Handbook"---a Google search
> will get you there.

Hartley, you can stick your Google search where the sun don't shine. I
just like gliding and I neither want to be, nor need to be, a qualified
urologist to do that.

I'm NOT sick and numerous "flight surgeons" as you quaintly call them
will testify to that over an aviation career spanning 50 years last
month. Incidentally, the doctor who remarked over my excess sweating
was one of the first of these and a condition that hasn't been
life-threatening over that period is unlikely to warrant spending much
time on at this stage. My arthritis is much more a pain in the ...knee
than my urinary system.

You may not have noticed but I'm firmly against medicalising perfectly
normal physiology and I've got many years experience of MDs to back up
that position. Neither John nor I are sick and we are functioning
perfectly well. We appear to be off the centre of the bell curve but
nowhere near the end. I have experienced dehydration at both first and
second hand and I DON'T fly dehydrated. I just don't pee a lot. I
suspect the same is true of John Carlyle - who appears to have learned
about dehydration in roughly the same place as I did and I can tell you
it's a fast teacher. I suspect we both have more real life experience
of it than you.

Now. Isn't it possible that we have perfectly adequate physiology and
don't need to take any more than normal precautions against dehydration?

Just Yes or No will do. :)

Cheers,
GC






>
>

[jcarlyle]

Hartley, your point that renal physiology is extensively researched is
well taken. Clearly it isn't my field, and therefore the links, to me,
were incomprehensible - I couldn't learn a thing from them to help me
understand my situation. You seem well versed in the area; if you
would be so kind as to offer a possible explanation as to the
anomalous bodily response that Graeme and I exhibit I'm eager to be
educated.

Bill Dean's link was very informative regarding thirst and
dehydration. Dr. Dan Johnson has written another paper that is
pertinent to this discussion: http://amygdala.danlj.org/~danlj/
Soaring/Clues/index.html In chapter 5 you'll see that Dan's
recommended in-flight urinary system is Depends. Diapers have a very
high "ick" factor for me, but there's no denying their installation
ease and utter simplicity of use. I guess that since Depends weren't
recommended before in this discussion, the "ick" factor predominates
with other pilots.

-John

[HL Falbaum]

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...

Why is it especially dangerous to have an averagely full
> bladder on a normal gliding flight?
>
Assuming a half-full bladder, it is not dangerous. Problem is a bladder does
not signal "fullness" like a gas tank. The "signal" comes and goes.

> Hartley, you can stick your Google search where the sun don't shine. I
> just like gliding and I neither want to be, nor need to be, a qualified
> urologist to do that.

OK.

>We appear to be off the centre of the bell curve but
> nowhere near the end.

Maybe---do you really know that you are not near the end? Next time you fly
on a nice hot day, measure your urine output and check the color. If you
can, check the specific gravity---(range 1.000 to 1.030 on the instrument
will be sufficient). If you are above 200 cc and below 1.015 for a 6 hr
flight then you're OK


> I suspect we both have more real life experience of it than you.+

Maybe---

> Now. Isn't it possible that we have perfectly adequate physiology and
> don't need to take any more than normal precautions against dehydration?
>
> Just Yes or No will do. :)

Simple answer--Yes
but incomplete. Hydration is one parameter. Renal flow is another.
>
> Cheers,
> GC

And cheers to you
Hartley Falbaum

[Udo]

> > Now. Isn't it possible that we have perfectly adequate physiology and
> > don't need to take any more than normal precautions against dehydration?
>
> > Just Yes or No will do. :)Simple answer--Yes
> but incomplete. Hydration is one parameter. Renal flow is another.

> Hartley Falbaum

Hartley,
Could you comment on the thoughts below.
On a few flights, I would be peeing constantly but not sweating. I
was hydrated at the beginning of the flight, as I am very
conscientious about it. The legs were very cold, to the point of not
having very good control of my legs and feet when stepping out the
cockpit. The rest of the body was reasonably comfortable during the
flight. I would assume that due to the constrictions of the vessels in
the legs and lower body
extra fluids had to be expelled.
Can an acute dehydration occur due to that process in flight, should
one fly shortly there after in much warmer and lower altitude with
sunny conditions?
Regards
Udo

Udo

[HL Falbaum]

Udo, John:

I'll do a bit of review and try to formulate a clear answer in "educated
layman's" terms. The full technical explanation is a bit soporific and not
really necessary for the purpose at hand..

--
Hartley Falbaum

"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hartley, your point that renal physiology is extensively researched is
> well taken. Clearly it isn't my field, and therefore the links, to me,
> were incomprehensible - I couldn't learn a thing from them to help me
> understand my situation. You seem well versed in the area; if you
> would be so kind as to offer a possible explanation as to the
> anomalous bodily response that Graeme and I exhibit I'm eager to be
> educated.
>
> Bill Dean's link was very informative regarding thirst and
> dehydration. Dr. Dan Johnson has written another paper that is
> pertinent to this discussion: http://amygdala.danlj.org/~danlj/
> Soaring/Clues/index.html In chapter 5 you'll see that Dan's
> recommended in-flight urinary system is Depends. Diapers have a very
> high "ick" factor for me, but there's no denying their installation
> ease and utter simplicity of use. I guess that since Depends weren't
> recommended before in this discussion, the "ick" factor predominates
> with other pilots.
>
> -John
>

[jcarlyle]

Thanks, Hartley, I appreciate that!

-John

On Jan 28, 1:54 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> Udo, John:
>
> I'll do a bit of review and try to formulate a clear answer in "educated
> layman's" terms. The full technical explanation is a bit soporific and not
> really necessary for the purpose at hand..

[Graeme Cant]

HL Falbaum wrote:

> Maybe---do you really know that you are not near the end? Next time you fly
> on a nice hot day, measure your urine output and check the color. If you
> can, check the specific gravity---(range 1.000 to 1.030 on the instrument
> will be sufficient). If you are above 200 cc and below 1.015 for a 6 hr
> flight then you're OK

Thanks, Hartley. That's very useful information. I have graduated bags
that came with the Texas condoms I haven't yet needed and I'll use one
of those to check volume. I'm sure I can get hold of a hydrometer.

I think a lot of people will find those criteria helpful.

GC

[HL Falbaum]

"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks, Hartley, I appreciate that!
>
> -John
>
> On Jan 28, 1:54 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
>> Udo, John:
>>
>> I'll do a bit of review and try to formulate a clear answer in "educated
>> layman's" terms. The full technical explanation is a bit soporific and
>> not
>> really necessary for the purpose at hand..
>

Well--here it is FWIW:
Sorry its long but it does not lend itself well to a one paragraph answer.

This is the short explanation of renal function and water management for
glider pilots. First a few explanations and basic facts.
Water exists in the human body in two basic "compartments". Inside the cells
( intracellular fluid "ICF") and outside the cells (extracellular fluid
"ECF"). Visualize this as small, close together, islands in a vast swamp.
This fluid is not just water, but ions and small protien molecules. The
major players are Sodium, Potassium, Bicarbonate, and Ammonium. These
regulate cell function and acid-base balance, among other things. They
(water and solutes)are transported back and forth across cell membranes by
active "pumps", which are part of the cell, and osmotic pressure gradients,
which transfers water.

We gain water by drinking, and by metabolism of foods, as well as extraction
of water from the foods (think watermelon, celery, oranges, etc). We lose
water by breathing out water vapor, by direct transpiration from skin,
sweating, and urine production. The amounts vary with temperature, air
moisture content, ambient pressure, and exercise.

Breathing, at sea level pressure, and standard atmosphere temperature and
moisture, and at rest loses us about 375 to 500 cc per day. Much more at
high altitude and on oxygen.Transpiration, about 250 to 350 cc per day,
while sweating and urination can be quite variable, as we all know. The US
Army Surgeons Handbook suggests that total losses can approach 15 liters per
day in combat troops--flack vests, equipment, heat, exertion and the like.
Sweat contains salt, but not as concentrated as in the plasma, or ECF/ICF.

The body produces, just by metabolizing, a certain amount of wastes per day
which the kidneys must remove. This requires about 400 cc of urine per day,
assuming normal kidney function.

So here's how it works---blood flows through capilliaries in the kidney,
surrounding the glomerulus. This is a filter, allowing out water and the
solutes mentioned above. Then the filtrate passes to the renal tubule (a
little tube) and the capilliaries follow. The tubule is an active structure
and pumps water back into the capps but leaves some for the tubule. Under
the influence of the pituitary gland, the water is regulated by Vasopressin
(AntiDiuretic Hormone) and the Sodium by Angiotensin. ADH is a osmotic
regulator, and Angiotension is a blood pressure regulator. Acid base balance
is controlled by pumping Bicarbonate and Ammonium ( and also by the lungs,
adjusting CO2). Once the tubules have done their job, the remainder is
pumped by pressure and peristalsis (muscular contraction waves in a tubular
structure) down the ureter into the bladder.

The bladder is a muscular-walled sack which can contract involuntarily, and
this contraction can be inhibited or facilitated by conscious control. The
sphincter (think of a O-ring which can change diameter and thickness)
controls the flow, and is under voluntary control and well as involuntary
control. (This is the secret of toilet training.). When the bladder begins
to get full, it sigmals the spinal cord to produce the "micturition"
(peeing) reflex, and you get the signal. This starts at about 150 cc and
comes and goes untill 4-500 cc, when the bladder is full. The reason it
comes and goes is that it is a pressure signal, not a volume signal. The
bladder, being a muscle, can relax, pressure will decrease and it becomes
larger in capicty. (this is the other secret of toilet training).
Eventually, it cannot be ignored, as you all know! You relax the sphincter,
command bladder contraction facilitation and abdominal wall
contraction--and, whew! relief!

If we don't provide a sufficient flow rate to the tubules, they will
concentrate the wastes as best they can, until the pumps can no longer
overcome the osmotic pressure gradient, then they give up! If we don't empty
the bladder, we eventually cannot overcome the pressure gradient and the
tubules and the glomeruli give up. If the wastes are too concentrated too
long, we form Calcium or Oxalate stones.

So what do we need to do? We must provide mild excesses of water and
electrolytes to the system and let it take what it needs. How do we know we
have done that--? Well, we know that we need to excrete at least 400-500 cc
of urine per 24hr. We know that urine should not be overly concentrated. We
know that when we sleep, our blood pressure, heart rate and respiratory rate
is decresed, thereby requiring less urine output. Therefore we need to
excrete more urine during the day. Plan 35-50 cc per hour, and moderate
concentration--light to medium yellow. If we do that, we are well hydrated
and our urinary system is functioning well-no danger. Acid-base balance is
maintained (another source of cognitive impairment).If we drink enough to
maintain those pasameters, we should be fine. Water is good if we are not
doing muscular effort (as we are not losing electrolytes much), Gatorade or
Powerade if we are doing heavy muscular effort (assemble 3 ASW20B's in a
row)--but be careful. The glucose can cause an insulin spike, and drop your
blood sugar.

In the final analysis, it's really simple. Drink enough to maintain about a
40-50cc/ hr urine output. For those who say "I don't pee much", I
say--measure--maybe it's enough after all-maybe not. To those who measure
their flights by "pee bags", well-enjoy, but you may be overdoing it. (I
have seen a FULL 1 gallon ziplock bag come out of a glider after landing!)

I hope this helps

Hartley Falbaum

[Graeme Cant]

HL Falbaum wrote:

> Well--here it is FWIW:

Thanks, Hartley. It's worth more than all the other fire and brimstone
warnings put together. Great.

GC

> Sorry its long but it does not lend itself well to a one paragraph answer.
>
> This is the short explanation of renal function and water management for
> glider pilots. First a few explanations and basic facts.
> Water exists in the human body in two basic "compartments". Inside the cells
> ( intracellular fluid "ICF") and outside the cells (extracellular fluid
> "ECF"). Visualize this as small, close together, islands in a vast swamp.
> This fluid is not just water, but ions and small protien molecules. The
> major players are Sodium, Potassium, Bicarbonate, and Ammonium. These
> regulate cell function and acid-base balance, among other things. They
> (water and solutes)are transported back and forth across cell membranes by
> active "pumps", which are part of the cell, and osmotic pressure gradients,
> which transfers water.
>
> We gain water by drinking, and by metabolism of foods, as well as extraction
> of water from the foods (think watermelon, celery, oranges, etc). We lose
> water by breathing out water vapor, by direct transpiration from skin,
> sweating, and urine production. The amounts vary with temperature, air
> moisture content, ambient pressure, and exercise.
>
> Breathing, at sea level pressure, and standard atmosphere temperature and
> moisture, and at rest loses us about 375 to 500 cc per day. Much more at
> high altitude and on oxygen.Transpiration, about 250 to 350 cc per day,
> while sweating and urination can be quite variable, as we all know. The US
> Army Surgeons Handbook suggests that total losses can approach 15 liters per
> day in combat troops--flack vests, equipment, heat, exertion and the like.
> Sweat contains salt, but not as concentrated as in the plasma, or ECF/ICF.
>
> The body produces, just by metabolizing, a certain amount of wastes per day
> which the kidneys must remove. This requires about 400 cc of urine per day,
> assuming normal kidney function.
>
> So here's how it works---blood flows through capilliaries in the kidney,
> surrounding the glomerulus. This is a filter, allowing out water and the
> solutes mentioned above. Then the filtrate passes to the renal tubule (a
> little tube) and the capilliaries follow. The tubule is an active structure
> and pumps water back into the capps but leaves some for the tubule. Under
> the influence of the pituitary gland, the water is regulated by Vasopressin
> (AntiDiuretic Hormone) and the Sodium by Angiotensin. ADH is a osmotic
> regulator, and Angiotension is a blood pressure regulator. Acid base balance
> is controlled by pumping Bicarbonate and Ammonium ( and also by the lungs,
> adjusting CO2). Once the tubules have done their job, the remainder is
> pumped by pressure and peristalsis (muscular contraction waves in a tubular
> structure) down the ureter into the bladder.
>
> The bladder is a muscular-walled sack which can contract involuntarily, and
> this contraction can be inhibited or facilitated by conscious control. The
> sphincter (think of a O-ring which can change diameter and thickness)
> controls the flow, and is under voluntary control and well as involuntary
> control. (This is the secret of toilet training.). When the bladder begins
> to get full, it sigmals the spinal cord to produce the "micturition"
> (peeing) reflex, and you get the signal. This starts at about 150 cc and
> comes and goes untill 4-500 cc, when the bladder is full. The reason it
> comes and goes is that it is a pressure signal, not a volume signal. The
> bladder, being a muscle, can relax, pressure will decrease and it becomes
> larger in capicty. (this is the other secret of toilet training).
> Eventually, it cannot be ignored, as you all know! You relax the sphincter,
> command bladder contraction facilitation and abdominal wall
> contraction--and, whew! relief!
>
> If we don't provide a sufficient flow rate to the tubules, they will
> concentrate the wastes as best they can, until the pumps can no longer
> overcome the osmotic pressure gradient, then they give up! If we don't empty
> the bladder, we eventually cannot overcome the pressure gradient and the
> tubules and the glomeruli give up. If the wastes are too concentrated too
> long, we form Calcium or Oxalate stones.
>
> So what do we need to do? We must provide mild excesses of water and
> electrolytes to the system and let it take what it needs. How do we know we
> have done that--? Well, we know that we need to excrete at least 400-500 cc
> of urine per 24hr. We know that urine should not be overly concentrated. We
> know that when we sleep, our blood pressure, heart rate and respiratory rate
> is decresed, thereby requiring less urine output. Therefore we need to
> excrete more urine during the day. Plan 35-50 cc per hour, and moderate
> concentration--light to medium yellow. If we do that, we are well hydrated
> and our urinary system is functioning well-no danger. Acid-base balance is
> maintained (another source of cognitive impairment).If we drink enough to
> maintain those pasameters, we should be fine. Water is good if we are not
> doing muscular effort (as we are not losing electrolytes much), Gatorade or
> Powerade if we are doing heavy muscular effort (assemble 3 ASW20B's in a
> row)--but be careful. The glucose can cause an insulin spike, and drop your
> blood sugar.
>
> In the final analysis, it's really simple. Drink enough to maintain about a
> 40-50cc/ hr urine output. For those who say "I don't pee much", I
> say--measure--maybe it's enough after all-maybe not. To those who measure
> their flights by "pee bags", well-enjoy, but you may be overdoing it. (I
> have seen a FULL 1 gallon ziplock bag come out of a glider after landing!)
>
> I hope this helps
>
> Hartley Falbaum
>
>
>
>
>
>

[jcarlyle]

Hartley, that is a very, very informative write up. It's quite clear,
about a subject I've not been exposed to before. Thanks so much for
taking the time to do it!

Doing some quick math, I see the following:

1. Good urine output is 40-50 ml/hr. For a 6 hour flight, that's
240-300 ml. An average bladder holds 400-500 ml. So IF you empty your
bladder before flight, and IF you're drinking at the optimal
rehydration rate, an average person shouldn't have to pee in flight.

2. Sweating water loss is extremely variable, while urine,
transpiration and breathing losses combined should average about 65-85
ml/hr. If you have 64 ounces of water, you can ration that during 6
hours to 325 ml/hr (11 oz/hr). That leaves 240-260 ml/hr available to
sweat out.

I'll check my urine output the next long flight I take. If it's pale
yellow, and the quantity yields about 40-50 ml/flight hour, I'll know
I've compensated for sweating. And based on point 1, I'm not going to
worry about peeing in-flight (although I will pack some Travel Johns,
just to be prepared)!

-John

On Jan 29, 6:06 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> This is the short explanation of renal function and water management for
> glider pilots. First a few explanations and basic facts.
>
> [huge snip]
>
> In the final analysis, it's really simple. Drink enough to maintain about a
> 40-50cc/ hr urine output. For those who say "I don't pee much", I
> say--measure--maybe it's enough after all-maybe not. To those who measure
> their flights by "pee bags", well-enjoy, but you may be overdoing it. (I
> have seen a FULL 1 gallon ziplock bag come out of a glider after landing!)
>
> Hartley Falbaum

[HL Falbaum]

Looks like you guys have the idea. I'm glad it helps

--
Hartley Falbaum

"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hartley, that is a very, very informative write up. It's quite clear,
> about a subject I've not been exposed to before. Thanks so much for
> taking the time to do it!
>
> Doing some quick math, I see the following:
>
> 1. Good urine output is 40-50 ml/hr. For a 6 hour flight, that's
> 240-300 ml. An average bladder holds 400-500 ml. So IF you empty your
> bladder before flight, and IF you're drinking at the optimal
> rehydration rate, an average person shouldn't have to pee in flight.
>
> 2. Sweating water loss is extremely variable, while urine,
> transpiration and breathing losses combined should average about 65-85
> ml/hr. If you have 64 ounces of water, you can ration that during 6
> hours to 325 ml/hr (11 oz/hr). That leaves 240-260 ml/hr available to
> sweat out.
>
> I'll check my urine output the next long flight I take. If it's pale
> yellow, and the quantity yields about 40-50 ml/flight hour, I'll know
> I've compensated for sweating. And based on point 1, I'm not going to
> worry about peeing in-flight (although I will pack some Travel Johns,
> just to be prepared)!
>
> -John
>
> On Jan 29, 6:06 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
>> This is the short explanation of renal function and water management for
>> glider pilots. First a few explanations and basic facts.
>>
>> [huge snip]
>>
>> In the final analysis, it's really simple. Drink enough to maintain about
>> a
>> 40-50cc/ hr urine output. For those who say "I don't pee much", I
>> say--measure--maybe it's enough after all-maybe not. To those who measure
>> their flights by "pee bags", well-enjoy, but you may be overdoing it. (I
>> have seen a FULL 1 gallon ziplock bag come out of a glider after
>> landing!)
>>
>> Hartley Falbaum
>

[Jack[_1_]]

jcarlyle wrote:

> 1. Good urine output is 40-50 ml/hr. For a 6 hour flight, that's
> 240-300 ml. An average bladder holds 400-500 ml. So IF you empty your
> bladder before flight, and IF you're drinking at the optimal
> rehydration rate, an average person shouldn't have to pee in flight.

Can the bladder actually be emptied? Is there residual urine, and how
much for the average male?


Jack

[jcarlyle]

Jack, this question would be best answered by Hartley - I'm a
physicist, not a physician. But since we're talking 60-75% full in the
above example, I imagine there would be some capacity left - YMMV. The
wild card is the individual himself - as has been pointed out the
prostrate gland in males starts enlarging above age 50, affecting the
bladder, urge and ability to go.

-John

On Jan 30, 12:53 pm, Jack > wrote:
>Can the bladder actually be emptied? Is there residual urine, and how
> much for the average male?

[Jack[_1_]]

jcarlyle wrote:

> Jack, this question would be best answered by Hartley - I'm a
> physicist, not a physician. But since we're talking 60-75% full in the
> above example, I imagine there would be some capacity left - YMMV. The
> wild card is the individual himself - as has been pointed out the
> prostrate gland in males starts enlarging above age 50, affecting the
> bladder, urge and ability to go.

OK, Hartley we're standing by to receive....


Jack

[Cats]

On Jan 26, 3:49 am, "ContestID67" > wrote:
> Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
> network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
> topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
> afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.

I think it's something to do with most men being totally obsessed with
that part of their anatomy although my view is that they are rather
like bald heads - although each one is clearly different, the
similarities are much greater than the differences.

The really strange thing about it is that here in Scotland at this
time of year, wave flying is often so cold that I would have thought
taking a pee was almost impossible. Firstly there is the nice warm
flying suit that needs unzipping. Then the cold air hits the
equipment which promptly shrinks back to the warmth of the body.
Fumbled manual attempts to retrieve the situation merely cool the
instrument further until whatever it's normal state it resembles
something not much larger than a dimple. Well that's what I imagine
happening, but then I don't have said instrument. :D

[HL Falbaum]

Since you asked------
The normal bladder can be emptied completely, and normally, it is. In fact,
a residual urine of any more than a small amount (5-10cc) indicates a
problem!--Remember - the bladder is a muscular- walled reservoir. Once the
sphincter is relaxed, the bladder expells urine under pressure--That's how
you can "pee" uphill, while lying down.

One of the problems in prostate enlargement is that the sphincter is tightly
contracted if you try to "hold it" (like to the end of the movie, 500k, ball
game, opera or whatever. It becomes more sensitive to neurologic commands to
tighten, and takes longer to relax. So a person with this problem might find
a slow starting, weak, stream--get tired of waiting and only drain the
bladder partially. With reduced pressure in the bladder, in a little while
the sphincter relaxes more and the urge to go returns. This time, the stream
starts easier, quicker, and is more forceful, with greater volume---then,
the bladder can empty completely.

The "moral" of the story--if you have a prostate problem, go early!--BTW-If
you don't want to drill holes in your glider, and you want something easy,
use a condom catheter with a tubing to a 1 gal plastic bag, with shredded
Depends, or to a 1 or 2 liter soft drink bottle (the plastic kind)---just
stick the hose in and go!
--
Hartley Falbaum
"Jack" > wrote in message
. net...
> jcarlyle wrote:
>
>> Jack, this question would be best answered by Hartley - I'm a physicist,
>> not a physician. But since we're talking 60-75% full in the above
>> example, I imagine there would be some capacity left - YMMV. The wild
>> card is the individual himself - as has been pointed out the prostrate
>> gland in males starts enlarging above age 50, affecting the bladder, urge
>> and ability to go.
>
> OK, Hartley we're standing by to receive....
>
>
> Jack

[Bob Backer]

Cats wrote:
> On Jan 26, 3:49 am, "ContestID67" > wrote:
>> Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
>> network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
>> topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
>> afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.
>
> I think it's something to do with most men being totally obsessed with
> that part of their anatomy although my view is that they are rather
> like bald heads - although each one is clearly different, the
> similarities are much greater than the differences.
>
> The really strange thing about it is that here in Scotland at this
> time of year, wave flying is often so cold that I would have thought
> taking a pee was almost impossible. Firstly there is the nice warm
> flying suit that needs unzipping. Then the cold air hits the
> equipment which promptly shrinks back to the warmth of the body.
> Fumbled manual attempts to retrieve the situation merely cool the
> instrument further until whatever it's normal state it resembles
> something not much larger than a dimple. Well that's what I imagine
> happening, but then I don't have said instrument. :D
>
Why do you think we carry "those" magazines in the glider?

[Shawn]

Bob Backer wrote:
> Cats wrote:
>> On Jan 26, 3:49 am, "ContestID67" > wrote:
>>> Someone please explain to me the inner workings and psychology of
>>> network news such that it always seems to take a posting on a simple
>>> topic (like gap tape) and then quickly morphs it into some quite far
>>> afield...usually involving a male body part. Strange indeed.
>>
>> I think it's something to do with most men being totally obsessed with
>> that part of their anatomy although my view is that they are rather
>> like bald heads - although each one is clearly different, the
>> similarities are much greater than the differences.
>>
>> The really strange thing about it is that here in Scotland at this
>> time of year, wave flying is often so cold that I would have thought
>> taking a pee was almost impossible. Firstly there is the nice warm
>> flying suit that needs unzipping. Then the cold air hits the
>> equipment which promptly shrinks back to the warmth of the body.
>> Fumbled manual attempts to retrieve the situation merely cool the
>> instrument further until whatever it's normal state it resembles
>> something not much larger than a dimple. Well that's what I imagine
>> happening, but then I don't have said instrument. :D
>>
> Why do you think we carry "those" magazines in the glider?

Where do you fly, and if it's in Colorado give me a ring when you do so
I can stay home, with my computer, with what it's intended for:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5430343841227974645

:-)


Shawn

[Sally W]

At 00:49 31 January 2007, Shawn wrote:
>Bob Backer wrote:
<snip>
>>>
>> Why do you think we carry 'those' magazines in the
>>glider?
>
>Where do you fly, and if it's in Colorado give me a
>ring when you do so
>I can stay home, with my computer, with what it's intended
>for:
>
>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5430343841227974645
>
>:-)

ROFL! And doesn't the 'female' walk just like a man?

[Nyal Williams]

At 21:49 30 January 2007, Cats wrote:


>The really strange thing about it is that here in Scotland
>at this
>time of year, wave flying is often so cold that I would
>have thought
>taking a pee was almost impossible. Firstly there
>is the nice warm
>flying suit that needs unzipping. Then the cold air
>hits the
>equipment which promptly shrinks back to the warmth
>of the body.
>Fumbled manual attempts to retrieve the situation merely
>cool the
>instrument further until whatever it's normal state
>it resembles
>something not much larger than a dimple. Well that's
>what I imagine
>happening, but then I don't have said instrument. :D

There are all sorts of implants available on the market
if you are interested.

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, HL Falbaum
> writes
>bladder, being a muscle, can relax, pressure will decrease and it becomes
>larger in capicty. (this is the other secret of toilet training).
>Eventually, it cannot be ignored, as you all know! You relax the sphincter,
>command bladder contraction facilitation and abdominal wall
>contraction--and, whew! relief!
>
>If we don't provide a sufficient flow rate to the tubules, they will
>concentrate the wastes as best they can, until the pumps can no longer
>overcome the osmotic pressure gradient, then they give up! If we don't empty
>the bladder, we eventually cannot overcome the pressure gradient and the
>tubules and the glomeruli give up. If the wastes are too concentrated too
>long, we form Calcium or Oxalate stones.
>
>So what do we need to do? We must provide mild excesses of water and
>electrolytes to the system and let it take what it needs. How do we know we
>have done that--? Well, we know that we need to excrete at least 400-500 cc
>of urine per 24hr. We know that urine should not be overly concentrated. We
>know that when we sleep, our blood pressure, heart rate and respiratory rate
>is decresed, thereby requiring less urine output. Therefore we need to
>excrete more urine during the day. Plan 35-50 cc per hour, and moderate
>concentration--light to medium yellow. If we do that, we are well hydrated
>and our urinary system is functioning well-no danger. Acid-base balance is
>maintained (another source of cognitive impairment).If we drink enough to
>maintain those pasameters, we should be fine. Water is good if we are not
>doing muscular effort (as we are not losing electrolytes much), Gatorade or
>Powerade if we are doing heavy muscular effort (assemble 3 ASW20B's in a
>row)--but be careful. The glucose can cause an insulin spike, and drop your
>blood sugar.
>
>In the final analysis, it's really simple. Drink enough to maintain about a
>40-50cc/ hr urine output. For those who say "I don't pee much", I
>say--measure--maybe it's enough after all-maybe not. To those who measure
>their flights by "pee bags", well-enjoy, but you may be overdoing it. (I
>have seen a FULL 1 gallon ziplock bag come out of a glider after landing!)
>
>I hope this helps
>
>Hartley Falbaum
>
>
>
>
Thanks, Hartley. It helps a lot.

It's unfortunate that the modern sailplane isn't designed so that you
can pee very easily. (Or perhaps it's my anatomy).


>
>

--
Mike Lindsay