Lost log books

[Aluckyguess]

I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the logs.
My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the plane.

[BT]

he's got zero logbooks for it?

start running.. away... very far away and as fast as you can..

BT

"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
>I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the logs.
>My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the plane.
>

[Jim Macklin]

Without logs, how do you know the flight hours on the
airframe or engine? Without that, how do you comply with AD
notes?

But if the plane looks good and he can prove ownership, you
can re-create the logs from sources.

The FAA should have records on the airplane. Beech will
have records of manufacture and probably spare parts orders.

It is some detective work and some parts, such as engines
and props may need to be overhauled or replaced anyway.
Talk to a good A&P/AI who "knows the model" and do a little
research.

My guess is that the price should be adjusted $25,000 to
$100,000 lower than a "perfect" airplane to cover your
costs.

You will need a real annual inspection by YOUR mechanic, not
his. That will cost several thousand dollars, just for the
inspection and logbook research just to find out what MUST
be replaced or re-done.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"BT" > wrote in message
...
| he's got zero logbooks for it?
|
| start running.. away... very far away and as fast as you
can..
|
| BT
|
| "Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
| ...
| >I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but
he lost the logs.
| >My question is how much does this usually decrease the
value of the plane.
| >
|
|

[buttman]

On Jan 24, 9:15 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> he's got zero logbooks for it?
>
> start running.. away... very far away and as fast as you can..
>

It's perfectly reasonable that a well maintained plane could have it's
logbooks go missing.

The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for their planes
stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that thing goes up in
flames, the planes are no less flyable.

[Lou]

>
> The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for their planes
> stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that thing goes up in
> flames, the planes are no less flyable.


I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire proof safe for that
room.
If they did go up in flames how would your student take their
checkride?
Lou

[Peter Dohm]

>
> >
> > The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for their planes
> > stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that thing goes up in
> > flames, the planes are no less flyable.
>
>
> I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire proof safe for that
> room.

Great idea, but that would put them on a different "plane of reality" from
most places I recall working. Admittedly, none were aircraft
operators--but...

Peter

[Aluckyguess]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Without logs, how do you know the flight hours on the
> airframe or engine? Without that, how do you comply with AD
> notes?
>
> But if the plane looks good and he can prove ownership, you
He can and he has one annual done on it. The A/P had the hours in his
computer.

> can re-create the logs from sources.
>
> The FAA should have records on the airplane. Beech will
> have records of manufacture and probably spare parts orders.
He has that disk and the number of the guy who owned the plane before him.
>
> It is some detective work and some parts, such as engines
> and props may need to be overhauled or replaced anyway.

He just did the prop it has 1 hour.

> Talk to a good A&P/AI who "knows the model" and do a little
> research.
I would do a complete annual using my mechanic as a pre buy.
>
> My guess is that the price should be adjusted $25,000 to
That was my guess, that equates to about 20%
I dont think he will sell it at that price so it mute anyhow.

> $100,000 lower than a "perfect" airplane to cover your
> costs.
>
> You will need a real annual inspection by YOUR mechanic, not
> his. That will cost several thousand dollars, just for the
> inspection and logbook research just to find out what MUST

I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all the places that
worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
Would this be as good as original if done?
> be replaced or re-done.
>
>
>

thanks
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> ...
> | he's got zero logbooks for it?
> |
> | start running.. away... very far away and as fast as you
> can..
> |
> | BT
> |
> | "Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
> | ...
> | >I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but
> he lost the logs.
> | >My question is how much does this usually decrease the
> value of the plane.
> | >
> |
> |
>
>

[[email protected]]

"Aluckyguess" > wrote:
> >I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the logs.
> >My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the plane.

You mean you'd still consider buying it without logbooks? The Seller is
doing nothing to re-create the logs? So aside from a pre-buy, you'd just
take the Seller's word for what has/hasn't been done and when? ... and
pay to have everything redone that requires signed/certified
documentation? Wow.

[C J Campbell]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:57:14 -0800, Lou wrote
(in article . com>):

>
>
>>
>> The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for their planes
>> stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that thing goes up in
>> flames, the planes are no less flyable.
>
>
> I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire proof safe for that
> room.
> If they did go up in flames how would your student take their
> checkride?
> Lou
>

I have never seen a flight school keeping aircraft logbooks in a fireproof
safe. Usually these logbooks occupy several shelves in the maintenance office
and are much too large to put in any reasonable sort of safe.

Logbooks get lost, destroyed, or whatever, all of the time.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 20:04:33 -0800, Aluckyguess wrote
(in article >):

> I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the logs.
> My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the plane.
>
>

Unfortunately, there is no 'usual' amount. Either the logbooks are recreated
from maintenance and other records or you basically 'zero time' everything.

Logbooks do get lost or destroyed from time to time; there is no getting
around that. However, it does not render the aircraft valueless.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[[email protected]]

"buttman" > wrote:
> It's perfectly reasonable that a well maintained plane could have it's
> logbooks go missing.
>
> The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for their planes
> stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that thing goes up in
> flames, the planes are no less flyable.

Would you be PIC in an airplane if you KNEW no aircraft logbooks existed
for it?

Have something go wrong, and the first thing the FAA followed by the
insurance company asks for are the aircraft logbooks. Don't have them?
.... good luck ... hope you have lots of $.

Logbooks should be stored in a fireproof safe. And with today's
technology, not a bad idea to scan them and make a CD or two and provide
one to the insurance company. Yeah, it would need to be updated
annually, but if anything happens to the originals, you're never more
than a year behind in obtaining paperwork. Sounds extreme, but money
well spent, IMO. Gives me a headache just thinking of the red tape and
cost involved of having to re-create and/or redo, re-redocument,
re-certify <shudder>.

[[email protected]]

"Aluckyguess" >:
> I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all the places that
> worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
> Would this be as good as original if done? be replaced or re-done.

God forbid, if anything happened while you were having that fun summer
flying all over the place re-creating logs and the plane were totaled,
would the insurance cover the full value if you the documentation was
incomplete? Why would you want to put yourself in that situation? It
isn't as if finding an A36 with complete documentation is difficult.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Aluckyguess wrote:
> I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the logs.
> My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the plane.
>
>


When were the logs lost?

Logs lost last month can be far a different scenario than logs lost 20
years ago for a 30 year old airplane.

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:20:06 -0700, wrote:

>"Aluckyguess" >:
>> I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all the places that
>> worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
>> Would this be as good as original if done? be replaced or re-done.
>
>God forbid, if anything happened while you were having that fun summer
>flying all over the place re-creating logs and the plane were totaled,
>would the insurance cover the full value if you the documentation was
>incomplete? Why would you want to put yourself in that situation? It
>isn't as if finding an A36 with complete documentation is difficult.

While I agree having a complete set of logs for a given aircraft
is a desirable thing, in the event of a total loss, the insurance
company will pay the stated hull value regardless of whether
or not the aircraft has a "complete set of logs". The stipulations
of the policy will be followed to the letter, and typically, nowhere
in said policy does it say "we only agree to pay if you don't lose
your logs". You will have to prove the aircraft was in annual /
airworthy at the time of the loss, etc.

I'll also allow as how having logs missing on an aircraft doesn't
necessarily mean an automatic "pass" (i.e., forget it, go look for
another aircraft) but it does raise a flag while looking at an
aircraft I'm contemplating purchasing.

My "Murphy's Law" meter gets pegged over on the "what is the owner
trying to hide by claiming the logs have been lost" side of the
scale. 8^)

FWIW, my '54 C-170B had it's 1st log missing (several years worth,
from '54 to the early 60's) but had everything from then on. After
I had a look at the airplane and the rest of the logs, I reasoned that
there was sufficient documentation for decades of ownership /
operation and that I could live with not having the 1st logbook (it
was claimed to have been lost by the way).

My current aircraft ('54 C-180) has everything dating back to day
one, including the initial test flight entry by the Cessna test pilot
in 1954.

Bela P. Havasreti

[Jim Macklin]

I would see just what was required to get a valid set of
records before any money on the airplane sale changed hands.
You use all available data to create new logs, shop data and
records, parts receipts, just as long you can rely on the
data, the FAA will accept it. But sometimes you have to
re-do work and that can become very expensive.


"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| ...
| > Without logs, how do you know the flight hours on the
| > airframe or engine? Without that, how do you comply
with AD
| > notes?
| >
| > But if the plane looks good and he can prove ownership,
you
| He can and he has one annual done on it. The A/P had the
hours in his
| computer.
|
| > can re-create the logs from sources.
| >
| > The FAA should have records on the airplane. Beech will
| > have records of manufacture and probably spare parts
orders.
| He has that disk and the number of the guy who owned the
plane before him.
| >
| > It is some detective work and some parts, such as
engines
| > and props may need to be overhauled or replaced anyway.
|
| He just did the prop it has 1 hour.
|
| > Talk to a good A&P/AI who "knows the model" and do a
little
| > research.
| I would do a complete annual using my mechanic as a pre
buy.
| >
| > My guess is that the price should be adjusted $25,000 to
| That was my guess, that equates to about 20%
| I dont think he will sell it at that price so it mute
anyhow.
|
| > $100,000 lower than a "perfect" airplane to cover your
| > costs.
| >
| > You will need a real annual inspection by YOUR mechanic,
not
| > his. That will cost several thousand dollars, just for
the
| > inspection and logbook research just to find out what
MUST
|
| I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all
the places that
| worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
| Would this be as good as original if done?
| > be replaced or re-done.
| >
| >
| >
|
| thanks
| > --
| > James H. Macklin
| > ATP,CFI,A&P
| >
| > "BT" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | he's got zero logbooks for it?
| > |
| > | start running.. away... very far away and as fast as
you
| > can..
| > |
| > | BT
| > |
| > | "Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
| > | ...
| > | >I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it,
but
| > he lost the logs.
| > | >My question is how much does this usually decrease
the
| > value of the plane.
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

We kept the aircraft logs in the airplane. Shop records on
paper and computer where the back-up. Without the logbooks,
how do you do a proper pre-flight? Any school that locks
the logs away from the student or a renter acts as though
they something to hide.


"C J Campbell" > wrote
in message
e.com...
| On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:57:14 -0800, Lou wrote
| (in article
. com>):
|
| >
| >
| >>
| >> The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for
their planes
| >> stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that
thing goes up in
| >> flames, the planes are no less flyable.
| >
| >
| > I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire
proof safe for that
| > room.
| > If they did go up in flames how would your student take
their
| > checkride?
| > Lou
| >
|
| I have never seen a flight school keeping aircraft
logbooks in a fireproof
| safe. Usually these logbooks occupy several shelves in the
maintenance office
| and are much too large to put in any reasonable sort of
safe.
|
| Logbooks get lost, destroyed, or whatever, all of the
time.
|
| --
| Waddling Eagle
| World Famous Flight Instructor
|

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:57:14 -0800, in
. com>, Lou wrote:
> I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire proof safe for that
> room.

One might hope... One might also be mistaken... <grin>

I had my plane on leaseback with a FBO quite a few years ago... The logs
were definitely not kept in any sort of fireproof safe... Come to think of
it, how many of us here even keep our logs in a fireproof safe?

.... quick search ...

Turns out that my logs are right *next* to my fireproof gun safe under
a pile of other stuff (computer parts and such)... Unfortunately, "close"
doesn't count... Considering the fact that I have a scanner, I probably
should scan a copy of the logs for archival purposes and store the images
remotely, perhaps on a private directory on my web site...

[[email protected]]

Grumman-581 > wrote:
> I had my plane on leaseback with a FBO quite a few years ago... The logs
> were definitely not kept in any sort of fireproof safe... Come to think of
> it, how many of us here even keep our logs in a fireproof safe?

I do.
After having to produce them for the FAA the day after an accident,
followed by getting them to the insurance ASAP (thank God everything was
up-to-date and well organized), it was pretty easy to see the costly
pickle I'd have been in if I didn't have them, or if they were
incomplete.

[Aluckyguess]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
. net...
> Aluckyguess wrote:
>> I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the
>> logs. My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the
>> plane.
>
>
> When were the logs lost?
2005
Am I wrong in thinking that if you have and annual done and the mechanic
signs it off. All AD's and such are done that the plane is not flight worthy
or the FAA, insurance would have a problem with that.
In looking at the plane it has original interior and paint looks amazing for
a 73 better than most 80's that I have looked at.
All in all the owner will not sell it for what I want to pay for a plane
with no logs. I would have no problem flying it with a good pre-buy. Logs or
no logs.
>
> Logs lost last month can be far a different scenario than logs lost 20
> years ago for a 30 year old airplane.

[M[_1_]]

There's a huge difference between a plane having recent logbooks
missing, vs. a plane that has all its last 20 years of logbooks, but
missing the ones before that.

If the first case, as long as the hours are correctly documented in the
current logbook for the purpose of life time limited parts (if any), I
don't see much difference from an aircraft with all logbooks. A very
detailed pre-buy by *your choise of mechanics* is still critical.

If an aircraft is missing recent logbooks, run away!



On Jan 25, 9:18 am, Bela P. Havasreti >
wrote:

>
> FWIW, my '54 C-170B had it's 1st log missing (several years worth,
> from '54 to the early 60's) but had everything from then on. After
> I had a look at the airplane and the rest of the logs, I reasoned that
> there was sufficient documentation for decades of ownership /
> operation and that I could live with not having the 1st logbook (it
> was claimed to have been lost by the way).
>
> My current aircraft ('54 C-180) has everything dating back to day
> one, including the initial test flight entry by the Cessna test pilot
> in 1954.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Aluckyguess wrote:

> All in all the owner will not sell it for what I want to pay for a plane
> with no logs. I would have no problem flying it with a good pre-buy.

The price is the real problem! With an airplane, I think you've got to
think about when YOU are going to sell it as you negotiate a price. <G>

My co-owner and I just went through the same issue. We're looking to
move from the Sundowner to a faster craft. The subject of our interest
had lost logs in 1986, with an owner who's lost his medical. Based on
the details, and the overhaul date of the engine, we're quite sure it
was gear-upped. We really didn't have a huge problem with the log
restart, as it's been through 19-20 annuals. We figured by now any
shoddy repairs should have shown themselves.

Our problem was that the current owner did not take a lost log hit off
the price when he bought it several years ago, so he can't sell it for
what it's really worth. We felt that the fact the airplane had not sold
for a what our research shows was a very good to downright cheap price,
if it had complete logs, was real proof that we'd have a problem later on.

[JGalban[_10_]]

Aluckyguess wrote :
>Am I wrong in thinking that if you have and annual done
> and the mechanic signs it off.

That's the expensive part. Without any logs, the mechanic will
have to redo or visually verify every AD that has ever been issued for
the plane. On top of that, even after that is done, the resale value
is going to suffer until the plane has built up many years of well
logged maintenance.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)


--
JGalban
Posted at www.flight.org

[Blanche]

Grumman-581 > wrote:
. com>, Lou wrote:
>> I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire proof safe for that
>> room.
>
>One might hope... One might also be mistaken... <grin>
>
>I had my plane on leaseback with a FBO quite a few years ago... The logs
>were definitely not kept in any sort of fireproof safe... Come to think of
>it, how many of us here even keep our logs in a fireproof safe?

Me! Well, maybe not fireproof, but all logbooks except the current
airframe and engine are in the safe deposit box at the airport. Along
with a CD containing scanned images of every page of all the books.
At home, the current books are in my small fire "resistant" box in
the basement along with computer backups.

Yes, I'm paranoid. But then I've been doing software for so many years
I don't even notice I'm paranoid any longer.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Grumman-581 > wrote:

>Come to think of
> it, how many of us here even keep our logs in a fireproof safe?

I do. I bought the safe precisely because I wanted to protect the logs

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate