Average lifespan of a business jet?

[GrtArtiste]

There's a rumor floating around the office that my company is
considering purchase of a used bizjet. They have a reputation for
trying to do things on the cheap and seem to be partial to Citations
because we're located in a town that has a Cessna repair facility.
I've seen multiple listings for such planes varying from 15-20 years
and older with TT ranging from as few as 3700 up to 10000-12000. So I
wonder...how old (how many hours) does such a plane get before it has
(generally speaking) outlived it's usefulness? Depending on what they
decide to buy, I'll have to determine whether or not I want to fly in
it.

GrtArtiste<a non-pilot, not wanting to end up like Payne Stewart

[Michelle P]

GrtArtiste wrote:
> There's a rumor floating around the office that my company is
> considering purchase of a used bizjet. They have a reputation for
> trying to do things on the cheap and seem to be partial to Citations
> because we're located in a town that has a Cessna repair facility.
> I've seen multiple listings for such planes varying from 15-20 years
> and older with TT ranging from as few as 3700 up to 10000-12000. So I
> wonder...how old (how many hours) does such a plane get before it has
> (generally speaking) outlived it's usefulness? Depending on what they
> decide to buy, I'll have to determine whether or not I want to fly in
> it.
>
> GrtArtiste<a non-pilot, not wanting to end up like Payne Stewart
>
Mostly depends on how well it was maintained.
Michelle

[GrtArtiste]

On Feb 13, 8:37 pm, Michelle P
> wrote:

>
> Mostly depends on how well it was maintained.
> Michelle

Of course it does. Let's assume all required maintenance was above-
average in quality. I guess what I'm looking for is an age-hour limit
for my comfort level.

GrtArtiste

[Mike Spera]

GrtArtiste wrote:

> There's a rumor floating around the office that my company is
> considering purchase of a used bizjet. They have a reputation for
> trying to do things on the cheap and seem to be partial to Citations
> because we're located in a town that has a Cessna repair facility.
> I've seen multiple listings for such planes varying from 15-20 years
> and older with TT ranging from as few as 3700 up to 10000-12000. So I
> wonder...how old (how many hours) does such a plane get before it has
> (generally speaking) outlived it's usefulness? Depending on what they
> decide to buy, I'll have to determine whether or not I want to fly in
> it.
>
> GrtArtiste<a non-pilot, not wanting to end up like Payne Stewart
>

Not sure this is a go/no-go question. As the age goes up, the liklihood
of systems failing does also. If the plane has a history of being
patched up (overhauls and repairs on the original systems), that is
probably going to cost you. If the jet has seen major upgrades to newer
systems when something fails (new avionics, engine upgrades, airframe
overhauls), you may find a sweet spot in the financials of owning that
plane.

In general, most business jets have surprisingly little time on them.

But it does not take many $30,000 heated windshields to bust the bank. I
really never equated "cheap" with "jets". Maybe someone with a lot more
cash than I do would.

Good Luck,
Mike

[Doug[_1_]]

The number of pressurizations is one factor. Something like 10,000
(that would be 10,000 pressurizations, not hours) is getting up there.
The other item is engine rebuilds are horrendously expensive and can
swamp the cost of purchase. Don't believe Cessna's figures on per hour
running either. They are way optimistic.

Having said all that, there are some very useful, well used business
jets out there.

My advice would be to get an expert. in CESSNA CITATIONS. Probably a
Citation mechanic, and pay him to help you decide which one.

[Private]

"Doug" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> The number of pressurizations is one factor. Something like 10,000
> (that would be 10,000 pressurizations, not hours) is getting up there.
snip

I have recently flown a 737 with over 74000 cycles.

[Montblack]

("Private" wrote)
>> The number of pressurizations is one factor. Something like 10,000 (that
>> would be 10,000 pressurizations, not hours) is getting up there.

> I have recently flown a 737 with over 74000 cycles.


Is taking off, flying up to altitude, then landing, one cycle?


10 Cycles Per Day (x) ...

10 years (3,650 days) = 36,500 cycles

20 years (x) ..10 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
25 years (x) ...8 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
40 years (x) ...5 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles

WOW!


Montblack

[jc]

Montblack wrote:

> ("Private" wrote)

>> I have recently flown a 737 with over 74000 cycles.
>
>
> Is taking off, flying up to altitude, then landing, one cycle?
>
>
> 10 Cycles Per Day (x) ...
>
> 10 years (3,650 days) = 36,500 cycles
>
> 20 years (x) ..10 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
> 25 years (x) ...8 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
> 40 years (x) ...5 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
>

How many cycles did the Aloha convertible have? IIRC it was something like
90,000 but a 737 might be designed to different life expectations
--

regards

jc

LEGAL - I don't believe what I wrote and neither should you. Sobriety and/or
sanity of the author is not guaranteed

EMAIL - and are not valid email
addresses. news2x at perentie is valid for a while.

[RST Engineering]

Not a problem, Monty...we had a couple of Fat Alberts on the line when I
"retired" from PSA in the late '60s. The 737 was BUILT for the milk
runs...our longest run was an hour; many of them were 45 minutes or so. You
can get a dozen cycles a day in at that rate and that was 40 years ago.

A "cycle" is depart, gear up, gear down, arrive. 99.999% of the time that
also means a pressurization.

Jim

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Private" wrote)
>>> The number of pressurizations is one factor. Something like 10,000 (that
>>> would be 10,000 pressurizations, not hours) is getting up there.
>
>> I have recently flown a 737 with over 74000 cycles.
>
>
> Is taking off, flying up to altitude, then landing, one cycle?
>
>
> 10 Cycles Per Day (x) ...
>
> 10 years (3,650 days) = 36,500 cycles
>
> 20 years (x) ..10 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
> 25 years (x) ...8 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
> 40 years (x) ...5 c.p.d. = 73,000 cycles
>
> WOW!
>
>
> Montblack
>

[The Visitor]

Maybe try not to be the first passenger then?

I would also/moreso worry about pilot training/qualifications. Egos and
fancy outfits do not help when something does go wrong.




GrtArtiste wrote:
> There's a rumor floating around the office that my company is
> considering purchase of a used bizjet. They have a reputation for
> trying to do things on the cheap and seem to be partial to Citations
> because we're located in a town that has a Cessna repair facility.
> I've seen multiple listings for such planes varying from 15-20 years
> and older with TT ranging from as few as 3700 up to 10000-12000. So I
> wonder...how old (how many hours) does such a plane get before it has
> (generally speaking) outlived it's usefulness? Depending on what they
> decide to buy, I'll have to determine whether or not I want to fly in
> it.
>
> GrtArtiste<a non-pilot, not wanting to end up like Payne Stewart
>

[[email protected]]

One other major item that you need to do with whatever you decide to
purchase is to take the time run down the list of recommended and
required inspection or overhaul items due within the next couple of
thousand hours and get a handle on the costs of them. You don't want
to drop a bunch on an jet that turns up needing a required inspection
or overhaul that rivals the purchase price.

I had an aquaitenence that bought a jet for a fantastic price, but
ended up grounding it 300 hours later when a mandatory inspection came
due....the labor cost exceeded what he paid for the jet. He though it
was a very simple inspection, but it wasn't and it really bit him in
the butt when got the estimate.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:52:42 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Not a problem, Monty...we had a couple of Fat Alberts on the line when I
>"retired" from PSA in the late '60s. The 737 was BUILT for the milk
>runs...our longest run was an hour; many of them were 45 minutes or so. You
>can get a dozen cycles a day in at that rate and that was 40 years ago.
>
>A "cycle" is depart, gear up, gear down, arrive. 99.999% of the time that
>also means a pressurization.

Isn't there a "check or inspection" some where around 10,000 to 12,000
hours that amounts to almost a complete airframe rebuild?


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Al G[_1_]]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:52:42 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
>>Not a problem, Monty...we had a couple of Fat Alberts on the line when I
>>"retired" from PSA in the late '60s. The 737 was BUILT for the milk
>>runs...our longest run was an hour; many of them were 45 minutes or so.
>>You
>>can get a dozen cycles a day in at that rate and that was 40 years ago.
>>
>>A "cycle" is depart, gear up, gear down, arrive. 99.999% of the time that
>>also means a pressurization.
>
> Isn't there a "check or inspection" some where around 10,000 to 12,000
> hours that amounts to almost a complete airframe rebuild?
>
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Ok, I'll jump in here. Back in the 80's I worked for a Charter/Corporate
outfit that purchased, rebuilt, maintained and flew a 1969 Lear 24B. The
airplane did indeed run up against a 9000 hour inspection, which we did in
our shop. New engines, interior, and systems(Hydraulic & Electrical). Yes,
it was expensive, and yes the old beast burned a lot of fuel, no fanjets
these. But it was reliable, a very good performer, and we could go a long
way on the over $1,000,000 saved on a new jet.
Yes, it had some training issues. It had all the subtlety of a rake in
the garden. You kinda wanted to take the thing seriously most of the time.
Yes, it was noisy. We once got a $250 ticket for making a "Non noise
abatement departure" before we left. In fact we were sitting in the airport
lounge. It was like getting a ticket for speeding before your new Porche was
delivered. The cop said, it was an "anticipatory" ticket.
It was also fast. At light weights, I have recorded a climb to 12,500 in
1 minute from brake release. We could be level at FL410, and a 1000lbs
lighter, 15 minutes after departure. Lose an engine at night in the snow and
ice, and you are reduced to the performance of a stock DC9. Whenever you
wanted more altitude, the loud levers would take you there. I felt like I
was flying a liquid fuel rocket.
If properly maintained, there is nothing wrong with an older airplane.
How do you think it got so old?

Al G