Flight Review in a turbo twin

[Chad]

I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
engine for the review?

[[email protected]]

chad > wrote:
> I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
> do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
> work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
> that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
> specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
> engine for the review?

How do you figure flying for an hour will be hard on the engines?

A flight review is not the same as the practical test.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Kyle Boatright]

"chad" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
> do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
> work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
> that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
> specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
> engine for the review?

Explain your concern to the instructor before the flight and make sure he
understands what things you *don't* want done with your engines. Then ask
ask if s/he can give you a flight review without doing any of the things you
consider problematic.

And remember, you are PIC, so you can say "No, I don't want to do that out
of concern for $50,000 of engines.."

If you can't find an instructor who is comfortable with your rules, go ahead
and rent a C-152 or whatever. It'll probably be cheaper than whatever it
really costs you to run that 310 for an hour.

KB

[Denny]

Take your review by getting signed off in a tail dragger... You will
learn more about airplane handling than a hundred hours of pointing
your twin towards the horizon...

denny

[Nathan Young]

On 15 Feb 2007 18:00:06 -0800, "chad" > wrote:

>I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
>do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
>work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
>that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
>specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
>engine for the review?

The flight portion of my BFRs have focused on basic maneuvers, stalls,
slow flight, steep turns, and landings.

These procedures pretty much dictate the engines will go through many
high/low power cycles... Not the best for a turbo'd engine.

If I was you, I would rent a single for the day.

-Nathan

[Dan Luke]

"chad" wrote:

>I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
> do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
> work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
> that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
> specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
> engine for the review?

Pardon the question from an ASEL owner, but what good is a BFR for a ME pilot
that doesn't include engine-out procedures?

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Denny]

On Feb 16, 9:43 am, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> "chad" wrote:
> >I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
> > do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
> > work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
> > that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
> > specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
> > engine for the review?
>
> Pardon the question from an ASEL owner, but what good is a BFR for a ME pilot
> that doesn't include engine-out procedures?
>
> --
> Dan
> C-172RG at BFM

The BFR is non plane specific, non maneuver specific, etc... The CFI
can call for engine out procedures but that is exactly what he does
not want his turbo engines to go through... If he does it in his
plane, then he and the CFI have to decide what specific maneuvers will
be done...
Even though I learned to fly in conventional gear and flew such planes
most of my youth (J3, T-craft, 120, 103, etc.) I have also spent the
past few decades pushing twins towards the horizon... This past BFR I
chose to renew my aquaintance with conventional gear by checking out
in a PA-12... The reason for this one is that it returns me to the
right hand stick, left hand throttle, world.. First ten minutes were
fun breaking my right hand from moving when my brain called for power
changes... By the end of the sessionI had the full stall landing
working again and the hands sorted out... More fun that a bag full of
monkeys... Gonna do it for the next BFR also...

[[email protected]]

Nathan Young > wrote:
> On 15 Feb 2007 18:00:06 -0800, "chad" > wrote:

> >I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
> >do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
> >work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
> >that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
> >specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
> >engine for the review?

> The flight portion of my BFRs have focused on basic maneuvers, stalls,
> slow flight, steep turns, and landings.

> These procedures pretty much dictate the engines will go through many
> high/low power cycles... Not the best for a turbo'd engine.

> If I was you, I would rent a single for the day.

> -Nathan

My last review focused on communications (center, tower, ground),
airport area procedures, efficient use of the radios, using proper
phraseology, etc.

All the CFI's I know will pretty much do whatever you suggest you
feel you could use some brush up on. There is no requirement to do
basic maneuvers.

If you are instrument rated, is there some procedure you are less than
100% at?

If you are not instrument rated, when was the last time you did some
hood time?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Dan Luke]

"Denny" wrote:

>> Pardon the question from an ASEL owner, but what good is a BFR for a ME
>> pilot
>> that doesn't include engine-out procedures?
>>

> The BFR is non plane specific, non maneuver specific, etc... The CFI
> can call for engine out procedures but that is exactly what he does
> not want his turbo engines to go through... If he does it in his
> plane, then he and the CFI have to decide what specific maneuvers will
> be done...
> Even though I learned to fly in conventional gear and flew such planes
> most of my youth (J3, T-craft, 120, 103, etc.) I have also spent the
> past few decades pushing twins towards the horizon... This past BFR I
> chose to renew my aquaintance with conventional gear by checking out
> in a PA-12... The reason for this one is that it returns me to the
> right hand stick, left hand throttle, world.. First ten minutes were
> fun breaking my right hand from moving when my brain called for power
> changes... By the end of the session I had the full stall landing
> working again and the hands sorted out... More fun that a bag full of
> monkeys... Gonna do it for the next BFR also...

Sounds like fun.

I guess it's ok if you can say for sure your engine-out skills are sharp. A
couple of my ME pilot acquaintances of mine couldn't truthfully make that
statement.


--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 16, 6:35 am, Nathan Young > wrote:

> The flight portion of my BFRs have focused on basic maneuvers, stalls,
> slow flight, steep turns, and landings.
>
> These procedures pretty much dictate the engines will go through many
> high/low power cycles... Not the best for a turbo'd engine.
>
> If I was you, I would rent a single for the day.

As a CFI I would not sign a guy off in a single for a BFR if I know
his daily flying is a turbo twin. However, we could probably do the
flight review in the twin without putting too much stress on his
engines. Or, he could rent a twin.

-Robert, CFII

[karl gruber[_1_]]

What's a "103?"

"Curator" N185KG



"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Feb 16, 9:43 am, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
>> "chad" wrote:
>> >I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
>> > do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
>> > work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
>> > that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
>> > specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
>> > engine for the review?
>>
>> Pardon the question from an ASEL owner, but what good is a BFR for a ME
>> pilot
>> that doesn't include engine-out procedures?
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> C-172RG at BFM
>
> The BFR is non plane specific, non maneuver specific, etc... The CFI
> can call for engine out procedures but that is exactly what he does
> not want his turbo engines to go through... If he does it in his
> plane, then he and the CFI have to decide what specific maneuvers will
> be done...
> Even though I learned to fly in conventional gear and flew such planes
> most of my youth (J3, T-craft, 120, 103, etc.) I have also spent the
> past few decades pushing twins towards the horizon... This past BFR I
> chose to renew my aquaintance with conventional gear by checking out
> in a PA-12... The reason for this one is that it returns me to the
> right hand stick, left hand throttle, world.. First ten minutes were
> fun breaking my right hand from moving when my brain called for power
> changes... By the end of the sessionI had the full stall landing
> working again and the hands sorted out... More fun that a bag full of
> monkeys... Gonna do it for the next BFR also...
>

[The Visitor]

You do have a fair point and concern. Can it wait for summer?

Here is what I do. Don't do rapid power changes. If I will be simulating
an engine out, pull back slowly. and leave a little on to simulate
feather. If I need more power to keep it warm, drop down some flaps.

As far as your turbo worries go, I would think they will be okay. Unless
you don't allow them to spool down before shutting down.


But there are no guarantees about anything. It's always your call.]

John

chad wrote:
> I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
> do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
> work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
> that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
> specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
> engine for the review?
>

[Kyle Boatright]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Feb 16, 6:35 am, Nathan Young > wrote:
>
>> The flight portion of my BFRs have focused on basic maneuvers, stalls,
>> slow flight, steep turns, and landings.
>>
>> These procedures pretty much dictate the engines will go through many
>> high/low power cycles... Not the best for a turbo'd engine.
>>
>> If I was you, I would rent a single for the day.
>
> As a CFI I would not sign a guy off in a single for a BFR if I know
> his daily flying is a turbo twin. However, we could probably do the
> flight review in the twin without putting too much stress on his
> engines. Or, he could rent a twin.
>
> -Robert, CFII

You're the CFI, so you can sign off whatever you want, but that doesn't make
sense to me. If a guy who flies B-747's for a living can get his tailwheel
endorsement and have that count as a BFR, I don't see why anyone would draw
a line in the sand as you describe... I don't think that is what the FAA
intended when they created the BFR...

KB

[Blueskies]

Does the CFI giving the review need to have a CFIMEL rating if the flight is in the twin?


"Denny" > wrote in message oups.com...
: On Feb 16, 9:43 am, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
: > "chad" wrote:
: > >I own a turbo Cessna 310 and I'm wondering if other turbo twin owners
: > > do their biennial flight review in their aircraft. Is single engine
: > > work required for a flight review if done in a twin? I'm concered
: > > that doing the review in my aircraft may be hard on the engines,
: > > specifically the turbos. Would I be better off to just rent a single
: > > engine for the review?
: >
: > Pardon the question from an ASEL owner, but what good is a BFR for a ME pilot
: > that doesn't include engine-out procedures?
: >
: > --
: > Dan
: > C-172RG at BFM
:
: The BFR is non plane specific, non maneuver specific, etc... The CFI
: can call for engine out procedures but that is exactly what he does
: not want his turbo engines to go through... If he does it in his
: plane, then he and the CFI have to decide what specific maneuvers will
: be done...
: Even though I learned to fly in conventional gear and flew such planes
: most of my youth (J3, T-craft, 120, 103, etc.) I have also spent the
: past few decades pushing twins towards the horizon... This past BFR I
: chose to renew my aquaintance with conventional gear by checking out
: in a PA-12... The reason for this one is that it returns me to the
: right hand stick, left hand throttle, world.. First ten minutes were
: fun breaking my right hand from moving when my brain called for power
: changes... By the end of the sessionI had the full stall landing
: working again and the hands sorted out... More fun that a bag full of
: monkeys... Gonna do it for the next BFR also...
:

[Newps]

Kyle Boatright wrote:

>> As a CFI I would not sign a guy off in a single for a BFR if I know
>> his daily flying is a turbo twin.



I have a friend with four super cubs, one on amphibs. A 182 with a
canard on the nose, 310 hp and 26 bush wheels all around.
A Spartan Executive. A Caravan and a 210 with a turbine in it. What
should he do his BFR with?

[Kyle Boatright]

I know you didn't intentionally mis-attribute that, but....

KB


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>>> As a CFI I would not sign a guy off in a single for a BFR if I know
>>> his daily flying is a turbo twin.
>
>
>
> I have a friend with four super cubs, one on amphibs. A 182 with a canard
> on the nose, 310 hp and 26 bush wheels all around.
> A Spartan Executive. A Caravan and a 210 with a turbine in it. What
> should he do his BFR with?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 16, 3:06 pm, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in glegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 16, 6:35 am, Nathan Young > wrote:
>
> >> The flight portion of my BFRs have focused on basic maneuvers, stalls,
> >> slow flight, steep turns, and landings.
>
> >> These procedures pretty much dictate the engines will go through many
> >> high/low power cycles... Not the best for a turbo'd engine.
>
> >> If I was you, I would rent a single for the day.
>
> > As a CFI I would not sign a guy off in a single for a BFR if I know
> > his daily flying is a turbo twin. However, we could probably do the
> > flight review in the twin without putting too much stress on his
> > engines. Or, he could rent a twin.
>
> > -Robert, CFII
>
> You're the CFI, so you can sign off whatever you want, but that doesn't make
> sense to me. If a guy who flies B-747's for a living can get his tailwheel
> endorsement and have that count as a BFR, I don't see why anyone would draw
> a line in the sand as you describe... I don't think that is what the FAA
> intended when they created the BFR...

A guess who flys 747's for a living doesn't require a BFR endorsement
but a biannual CFI ride in the tailwheel isn't a bad idea if he flys
tailwheels.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 16, 4:58 pm, Newps > wrote:
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
> >> As a CFI I would not sign a guy off in a single for a BFR if I know
> >> his daily flying is a turbo twin.
>
> I have a friend with four super cubs, one on amphibs. A 182 with a
> canard on the nose, 310 hp and 26 bush wheels all around.
> A Spartan Executive. A Caravan and a 210 with a turbine in it. What
> should he do his BFR with?

For the FAA or for safety? A review in each plane would not be a bad
idea or at least take the 310 and the Spartan. This issue came up in
some discussions from the FAA. The question was, should you do a BFR
in a C-152 for a guy who only flies his Citation. Legally, you can.
Personally, I would not. The BFR should be made to suit the type of
flying the pilot does. I can't do Citation work in a C-150.

-Robert

[Denny]

On Feb 16, 12:12 pm, "karl gruber" > wrote:
> What's a "103?"
>
> "Curator" N185KG
>
Stinson Stationwagon

[Denny]

Interesting, the way these threads go... I see some folks rightously
claiming the FAA didn't INTEND for this or that... The 'intent' of the
FAA is absolutely meaningless, and any trial court in the country will
tell you that... It is what the reg says that is legally binding - not
the intent of the FAA legal staff who signed off on the reg, many of
whom will not even be still employed there...
The intent of the Bienniel Flight Review (as revealed by the language)
is that each of us shall get one hour of flight instruction from a CFI
- period....
Presumably the FAA feels that will help with public safety, or maybe
not, but that gets us back into the quicksand of intent. In any case,
you do the 1 hour of flight review and if the CFI feels that you have
met the criteria HE has set (no slight implied Michelle), you get
signed off as meeting the regulation...

In my case I chose to improve my airplane handling by renewing my
acquaintance with cross wind landings in conventional gear aircraft
with right hand stick and left hand throttle..
In your case it might be best spent reviewing PAR approaches to
minimums -
In another case it might be best spent reviewing the proper way to
enter the traffic pattern (based on what I see some pilots do)
For others some intensive instruction on how NOT to use the radio
would be very useful!
For others a reintroduction to cross country navigation using only a
whisky compass and a chart would pay benefits... When is the last
time you plotted a cross country course including compass deviation
and variation and wind correction angle (remember those terms? can
you define them?) and then flew it...

In any case, if the CFI tells me he wants to see single engine cuts at
50 feet, he will remain unemployed by me...

cheers ... denny

[The Visitor]

chad wrote:

may be hard on the engines,
> specifically the turbos.

What are you worried about the turbochargers, specifically.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 16, 4:16 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> Does the CFI giving the review need to have a CFIMEL rating if the flight is in the twin?

Yes, the CFI must hold a CFI rating in the aircraft being used.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 17, 5:34 am, "Denny" > wrote:

> In any case, if the CFI tells me he wants to see single engine cuts at
> 50 feet, he will remain unemployed by me...

In a SE plane. Why?

BTW: The FAA has said a number of times that they want to change the
requirements of the BFR to be more like the IPC. They want to add a
section to the PTS for each rating and require the pilot to meet the
table of requirement that will be in the PTS for the rating they hold.
AOPA has argued that CFIs are doing a good job today of making BFRs
"personal" to the pilot. If too many CFIs abuse this, the FAA will get
its way pretty quick.


-Robert

[Roy Smith]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On Feb 17, 5:34 am, "Denny" > wrote:
>
> > In any case, if the CFI tells me he wants to see single engine cuts at
> > 50 feet, he will remain unemployed by me...
>
> In a SE plane. Why?
>
> BTW: The FAA has said a number of times that they want to change the
> requirements of the BFR to be more like the IPC. They want to add a
> section to the PTS for each rating and require the pilot to meet the
> table of requirement that will be in the PTS for the rating they hold.
> AOPA has argued that CFIs are doing a good job today of making BFRs
> "personal" to the pilot. If too many CFIs abuse this, the FAA will get
> its way pretty quick.
>
>
> -Robert

The question of what a BFR should be has troubled me from the day I got my
CFI. I don't give "easy" BFRs, and I do try to customize the review to the
certificates and flying habits of the pilot in question. I fundamentally
only have one requirement -- that I can go home that night and get a good
night's sleep without worrying about my signature being in somebody's
logbook.

I'm up-front about that with the people who come to me. Anybody who feels
I'm exceeding the bounds of my authority is free to go fly with another
CFI. That's the great thing about a free-market economy.

I do all of my instructing with a flying club which has its own rules about
recurrent training (stiffer than the FAA). In a way, this gives me more
freedom. People almost never come to me just to do a BFR; it's always "A
BFR and a club annual checkout". If pushed, I can legitimately say that
the extra stuff I'm insisting on is mandated by the club.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

"Robert M. Gary" > writes:

> [...] AOPA has argued that CFIs are doing a good job today of making
> BFRs "personal" to the pilot. If too many CFIs abuse this, the FAA
> will get its way pretty quick. [...]

I wonder what else AOPA could possibly say, without
tarnishing the "GA is safe" slogan.

- FChE

[Kyle Boatright]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Feb 17, 5:34 am, "Denny" > wrote:
>
>> In any case, if the CFI tells me he wants to see single engine cuts at
>> 50 feet, he will remain unemployed by me...
>
> In a SE plane. Why?
>
> BTW: The FAA has said a number of times that they want to change the
> requirements of the BFR to be more like the IPC. They want to add a
> section to the PTS for each rating and require the pilot to meet the
> table of requirement that will be in the PTS for the rating they hold.
> AOPA has argued that CFIs are doing a good job today of making BFRs
> "personal" to the pilot. If too many CFIs abuse this, the FAA will get
> its way pretty quick.
>
>
> -Robert


If the FAA wants to change this rule, what is stopping them? Couldn't they
change the BFR tomorrow? The minutia of FAA rules isn't subject to vote by
the government, is it?

KB

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Feb 16, 12:12 pm, "karl gruber" > wrote:
>> What's a "103?"
>>
>> "Curator" N185KG
>>
> Stinson Stationwagon
>
Disguised as a "108" maybe?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 18, 6:05 am, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
> If the FAA wants to change this rule, what is stopping them? Couldn't they
> change the BFR tomorrow? The minutia of FAA rules isn't subject to vote by
> the government, is it?

Subject to strong lobby groups.

-Robert

[Roger[_4_]]

On 17 Feb 2007 09:11:25 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>On Feb 17, 5:34 am, "Denny" > wrote:
>
>> In any case, if the CFI tells me he wants to see single engine cuts at
>> 50 feet, he will remain unemployed by me...
>
>In a SE plane. Why?
>
>BTW: The FAA has said a number of times that they want to change the
>requirements of the BFR to be more like the IPC. They want to add a
>section to the PTS for each rating and require the pilot to meet the
>table of requirement that will be in the PTS for the rating they hold.
>AOPA has argued that CFIs are doing a good job today of making BFRs
>"personal" to the pilot. If too many CFIs abuse this, the FAA will get
>its way pretty quick.

Thing is a BFR should be personal. It should be tailored to the pilot
taking the review. IOW it should address any weaknesses or things not
done recently. When I sign up for a flight review I tell the CFI what
I need to work on. If he wants to do more that is fine, if he wants to
do every thing in the PTS that is fine too, but we will cover all the
things I know I need to brush up on.
We will do full stalls (departure, approach, and accelerated). If the
CFI is not comfortable with doing that in my plane then I'll get a
different instructor.


>
>
>-Robert
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com