Instrument Rating tests

[kevmor]

I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating Airplane) and FII
(Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the same question
bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I didn't see it in
part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems like none of
the tests expire for CFI?

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 15, 8:03 pm, "kevmor" > wrote:
> I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating Airplane) and FII
> (Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the same question
> bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I didn't see it in
> part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems like none of
> the tests expire for CFI?

Take a look at 61.39. All knowledge tests expire in 24 months.

§ 61.39 Prerequisites for practical tests.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, to
be eligible for a practical test for a certificate or rating issued
under this part, an applicant must:

(1) Pass the required knowledge test within the 24-calendar-month
period preceding the month the applicant completes the practical test,
if a knowledge test is required;

[Jim Macklin]

They all expire. But the FOI test or holding a certificate
is required for a CFI practical.
When you take the FOI as part of the CFI or CFII written,
also take the ground instructor basic [any of the tests].
When you have your results, the local FSDO will issue a
ground instructor certificate when you present the
application and the FOI with a passing GI result. Then you
only have to show the GI certificate for any further
instructor tests. You can do this while you're still a
non-pilot, no hours required.




"kevmor" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating Airplane) and
FII
| (Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the same
question
| bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I
didn't see it in
| part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems
like none of
| the tests expire for CFI?
|

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 15, 5:03 pm, "kevmor" > wrote:
> I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating Airplane) and FII
> (Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the same question
> bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I didn't see it in
> part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems like none of
> the tests expire for CFI?

As others have said, it does expire. If you take the IRA also take the
IGI exam and get your IGI rating for free (assuming you already have
FOI).
The one difference between CFI knowledge tests and pilot knowledge
tests is that you do not need an endorsement to take the CFI knowledge
tests, just walk in and take them. I never figured out why the FAA
requires endorsements for the pilot knowledge exams.

-Robert, CFII

[Jim Macklin]

Forty years ago, ACME and other schools were having their
students and instructors take the tests [all of them] dozens
of times. The tests were of limited numbers and the schools
were having student memorize the questions and answers.
Rated pilots and instructors were also taking the tests
multiple times.

Requiring endorsements and also yanking certificates if a
pilot failed the test for a rating already held was used to
keep the work load down. [Test were all given by the FAA
then and they were "free."] Later lawsuits by the schools
made the FAA publish the question bank [but not the
answers].


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| On Feb 15, 5:03 pm, "kevmor" > wrote:
| > I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating Airplane)
and FII
| > (Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the same
question
| > bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I
didn't see it in
| > part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems
like none of
| > the tests expire for CFI?
|
| As others have said, it does expire. If you take the IRA
also take the
| IGI exam and get your IGI rating for free (assuming you
already have
| FOI).
| The one difference between CFI knowledge tests and pilot
knowledge
| tests is that you do not need an endorsement to take the
CFI knowledge
| tests, just walk in and take them. I never figured out why
the FAA
| requires endorsements for the pilot knowledge exams.
|
| -Robert, CFII
|

[kevmor]

I think I read somewhere that the FOI test doesn't expire, is that
true? I passed the FOI already, if I pass just the FOI and IGI, you
can get the IGI rating from the FSDO? Is the IGI test is from the
same question bank as the IRA? Is the IGI test required to be a CFII
flight instructor? Would I have any benefit of taking the IGI test if
I most likely won't be taking the CFI practical test in two years?

Thanks all,
-Kevin

On Feb 16, 8:03 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Feb 15, 5:03 pm, "kevmor" > wrote:
>
> > I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating Airplane) and FII
> > (Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the same question
> > bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I didn't see it in
> > part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems like none of
> > the tests expire for CFI?
>
> As others have said, it does expire. If you take the IRA also take the
> IGI exam and get your IGI rating for free (assuming you already have
> FOI).
> The one difference between CFI knowledge tests and pilot knowledge
> tests is that you do not need an endorsement to take the CFI knowledge
> tests, just walk in and take them. I never figured out why the FAA
> requires endorsements for the pilot knowledge exams.
>
> -Robert, CFII

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 16, 12:58 pm, "kevmor" > wrote:
> I think I read somewhere that the FOI test doesn't expire, is that
> true? I passed the FOI already, if I pass just the FOI and IGI, you
> can get the IGI rating from the FSDO? Is the IGI test is from the
> same question bank as the IRA? Is the IGI test required to be a CFII
> flight instructor? Would I have any benefit of taking the IGI test if
> I most likely won't be taking the CFI practical test in two years?

I"m pretty sure the FOI expires but you can work around that, just get
your IGI (or AGI, etc).
Once you have both your FOI and your IGI in hand, just walk into the
FSDO with a completed 8710 and they will hand you an IGI ticket, no
questions asked.
The IGI test is from the same bank as the FOI (although there may be a
couple extra questions in the bank, but I think that's just the AGI).
The benefits of the IGI are 1) you don't have to show your FOI test to
your PI 2) Looks good on the resume and 3) It allows you to teach
ground school where not all pilots are fixed wing. It is not required
just to get your CFII.
Taking the CFI practical will not affect the IGI or FOI tests but
perhaps you meant CFII?
Since the IGI and AGI are good for life there isn't much reason not to
get them other than the $80 testing fee.
-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 16, 11:26 am, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:
> Forty years ago, ACME and other schools were having their
> students and instructors take the tests [all of them] dozens
> of times. The tests were of limited numbers and the schools
> were having student memorize the questions and answers.

I'll admit to having done that a few times. However, I didn't need to
take the test dozens of times to do it, the bank of questions is
available on the internet and ASA, etc provide all the answers already
(I know you know this). It doesn't seem like there is much benefit of
taking a test over and over to memorize the questions when the
questions are available on the internet.
Nowadays with study software you can generate tests with the same
exact questions as the real test as many times as you like and take
them on your PC.

-Robert, CFII

[Matt Barrow[_3_]]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Forty years ago, ACME and other schools were having their
> students and instructors take the tests [all of them] dozens
> of times. The tests were of limited numbers and the schools
> were having student memorize the questions and answers.
> Rated pilots and instructors were also taking the tests
> multiple times.

That's essentially the way the public schools operate today - rote
memorization.

[Bob Moore]

Robert M. Gary wrote
> I'll admit to having done that a few times. However, I didn't need to
> take the test dozens of times to do it, the bank of questions is
> available on the internet and ASA, etc provide all the answers already
> (I know you know this). It doesn't seem like there is much benefit of
> taking a test over and over to memorize the questions when the
> questions are available on the internet.

But that was not the case back in the '60s and '70s. The FAA had IIRC,
4-5 individual tests with 40 questions each. There was a company in Texas
that hired people to take the tests just to memorize the questions. I
recall buying their booklet with all of the tests in it. I debriefed all
of my students taking the tests for any changes.

No one ever worked out the problems, if you had test "A", the answer to
the flight planning problem was 2:47. :-)

What was the name of that company and their test guide ?????

Bob Moore

[Jim Macklin]

The IGI is similar to the CFII and IRA tests. The FOI is
same series for all instructor ratings. It does expire in
24 calendar months. But when you pass any ground instructor
rating, basic or instrument and have the FOI, you just apply
for the appropriate certificate. The certificate does not
expire and you must have a current valid FOI OR an issued
rating.


"kevmor" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|I think I read somewhere that the FOI test doesn't expire,
is that
| true? I passed the FOI already, if I pass just the FOI
and IGI, you
| can get the IGI rating from the FSDO? Is the IGI test is
from the
| same question bank as the IRA? Is the IGI test required
to be a CFII
| flight instructor? Would I have any benefit of taking the
IGI test if
| I most likely won't be taking the CFI practical test in
two years?
|
| Thanks all,
| -Kevin
|
| On Feb 16, 8:03 am, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:
| > On Feb 15, 5:03 pm, "kevmor" > wrote:
| >
| > > I understand it as the IRA (Instrument Rating
Airplane) and FII
| > > (Flight Instructor Instrument) tests come from the
same question
| > > bank. Does the FII test expire like the IRA does? I
didn't see it in
| > > part 61 unless I'm missing something. To me, it seems
like none of
| > > the tests expire for CFI?
| >
| > As others have said, it does expire. If you take the IRA
also take the
| > IGI exam and get your IGI rating for free (assuming you
already have
| > FOI).
| > The one difference between CFI knowledge tests and pilot
knowledge
| > tests is that you do not need an endorsement to take the
CFI knowledge
| > tests, just walk in and take them. I never figured out
why the FAA
| > requires endorsements for the pilot knowledge exams.
| >
| > -Robert, CFII
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

The questions were TOP SECRET back in the 1960-1970 era.
Courts ordered the FAA to make the questions public. That
is why they are available. They were published in test
books and when the FAA and Internet discovered each other,
they were made available on-line.

Microsoft has been around only about 25 years, the Internet
about 15.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| On Feb 16, 11:26 am, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
| > Forty years ago, ACME and other schools were having
their
| > students and instructors take the tests [all of them]
dozens
| > of times. The tests were of limited numbers and the
schools
| > were having student memorize the questions and answers.
|
| I'll admit to having done that a few times. However, I
didn't need to
| take the test dozens of times to do it, the bank of
questions is
| available on the internet and ASA, etc provide all the
answers already
| (I know you know this). It doesn't seem like there is much
benefit of
| taking a test over and over to memorize the questions when
the
| questions are available on the internet.
| Nowadays with study software you can generate tests with
the same
| exact questions as the real test as many times as you like
and take
| them on your PC.
|
| -Robert, CFII
|

[Jim Macklin]

ACME SCHOOL of Aeronautics, Ft. Worth, Texas. At Meacham
Field.



"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
46.128...
| Robert M. Gary wrote
| > I'll admit to having done that a few times. However, I
didn't need to
| > take the test dozens of times to do it, the bank of
questions is
| > available on the internet and ASA, etc provide all the
answers already
| > (I know you know this). It doesn't seem like there is
much benefit of
| > taking a test over and over to memorize the questions
when the
| > questions are available on the internet.
|
| But that was not the case back in the '60s and '70s. The
FAA had IIRC,
| 4-5 individual tests with 40 questions each. There was a
company in Texas
| that hired people to take the tests just to memorize the
questions. I
| recall buying their booklet with all of the tests in it. I
debriefed all
| of my students taking the tests for any changes.
|
| No one ever worked out the problems, if you had test "A",
the answer to
| the flight planning problem was 2:47. :-)
|
| What was the name of that company and their test guide
?????
|
| Bob Moore

[Jim Macklin]

Yep, the lowest level.


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| ...
| > Forty years ago, ACME and other schools were having
their
| > students and instructors take the tests [all of them]
dozens
| > of times. The tests were of limited numbers and the
schools
| > were having student memorize the questions and answers.
| > Rated pilots and instructors were also taking the tests
| > multiple times.
|
| That's essentially the way the public schools operate
today - rote
| memorization.
|
|

[Bob Moore]

Jim Macklin wrote

> ACME SCHOOL of Aeronautics, Ft. Worth, Texas. At Meacham
> Field.

That's it !! The ACME Guides as they were called.

Bob Moore

[Jim Macklin]

Glad to kick the old memories in the rear.


They had pilot, rigger, mechanic and instructor guides. All
at a time when the FAA test questions were closely guarded
secrets. The FAA was forced by court order to open the
question bank, so the FAA wrote thousands of new questions
and published them in booklets, without an answer key.
Publishers would work out what they thought was the correct
answer and then wrote their own books.
You had a choice, memorize 1,000s or learn a few facts and
figure out the answer to any question.



"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
46.128...
| Jim Macklin wrote
|
| > ACME SCHOOL of Aeronautics, Ft. Worth, Texas. At
Meacham
| > Field.
|
| That's it !! The ACME Guides as they were called.
|
| Bob Moore

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Jim Macklin" > wrote:

> Glad to kick the old memories in the rear.
>
>
> They had pilot, rigger, mechanic and instructor guides. All
> at a time when the FAA test questions were closely guarded
> secrets. The FAA was forced by court order to open the
> question bank, so the FAA wrote thousands of new questions
> and published them in booklets, without an answer key.
> Publishers would work out what they thought was the correct
> answer and then wrote their own books.
> You had a choice, memorize 1,000s or learn a few facts and
> figure out the answer to any question.

I remember when I was cramming for my Instrument written. There were three
questions about MLS (Microwave Landing System) on the test. I had never
flown an MLS and figured I never would, but I knew I might get those
questions on the test, so I had to be ready for them.

Once I noticed the pattern, it was easy. The correct answer (at least
according to Gleim), was the one with the largest number in it. If the
question was:

How many frobnitzes are in an MLS blurfl:

A) 40
B) 6000
C) 22

I knew the answer was B. I didn't know what a frobnitz or a blurfl was,
but I'd sure get all three questions right.

What a crock.

[Jim Macklin]

General rule for any multiple choice test, the answer is 3,
C or the longest answer. It also probably does not contain
the words, always, never, or not.

If you don't know the correct answer, look for those clues.

Eliminate answers you know are wrong.
Look for common math errors, the feds will put answers that
have deviation corrected in the wrong direction.
Why 3 or C? you ask. Because with 4 answers, they put two
wrong answers and then knowing that they need the correct
answer, put it in as 3. Of course with computer based
testing, the answer does get switched around so this is
become less useful to the test taker.
Longest answer, it takes more words to tell the whole and
correct answer.

Any wrong word or part of an answer makes the whole answer
wrong.

Also, it is important to look over any reference materials
available before you begin testing, this is probably the
most useful part of the :study guides" that detail what and
where to look for available legends, keys and supplementary
materials.


"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
| In article >,
| "Jim Macklin" >
wrote:
|
| > Glad to kick the old memories in the rear.
| >
| >
| > They had pilot, rigger, mechanic and instructor guides.
All
| > at a time when the FAA test questions were closely
guarded
| > secrets. The FAA was forced by court order to open the
| > question bank, so the FAA wrote thousands of new
questions
| > and published them in booklets, without an answer key.
| > Publishers would work out what they thought was the
correct
| > answer and then wrote their own books.
| > You had a choice, memorize 1,000s or learn a few facts
and
| > figure out the answer to any question.
|
| I remember when I was cramming for my Instrument written.
There were three
| questions about MLS (Microwave Landing System) on the
test. I had never
| flown an MLS and figured I never would, but I knew I might
get those
| questions on the test, so I had to be ready for them.
|
| Once I noticed the pattern, it was easy. The correct
answer (at least
| according to Gleim), was the one with the largest number
in it. If the
| question was:
|
| How many frobnitzes are in an MLS blurfl:
|
| A) 40
| B) 6000
| C) 22
|
| I knew the answer was B. I didn't know what a frobnitz or
a blurfl was,
| but I'd sure get all three questions right.
|
| What a crock.

[kevmor]

Ok, if you pass the CFII practical test, can you instruct as just a
CFI also?

If your instrument rated, would you get the CFI and CFII during the
same practical test normally?

If you don't become a GI, but pass the CFI practical, can you still
instruct pre and post-flight? Is the GI mainly if you want to
instruct in a classroom setting?

On Feb 16, 8:50 pm, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:
> The IGI is similar to the CFII and IRA tests. The FOI is
> same series for all instructor ratings. It does expire in
> 24 calendar months. But when you pass any ground instructor
> rating, basic or instrument and have the FOI, you just apply
> for the appropriate certificate. The certificate does not
> expire and you must have a current valid FOI OR an issued
> rating.
>

[Jim Macklin]

A CFII can not instruct for the airplane rating, so is not
an authorized instructor for solo, etc. However, most
instructors will have the airplane rating first, followed by
the II.




"kevmor" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Ok, if you pass the CFII practical test, can you instruct
as just a
| CFI also?
|
| If your instrument rated, would you get the CFI and CFII
during the
| same practical test normally?
|
| If you don't become a GI, but pass the CFI practical, can
you still
| instruct pre and post-flight? Is the GI mainly if you
want to
| instruct in a classroom setting?
|
| On Feb 16, 8:50 pm, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
| > The IGI is similar to the CFII and IRA tests. The FOI
is
| > same series for all instructor ratings. It does expire
in
| > 24 calendar months. But when you pass any ground
instructor
| > rating, basic or instrument and have the FOI, you just
apply
| > for the appropriate certificate. The certificate does
not
| > expire and you must have a current valid FOI OR an
issued
| > rating.
| >
|

[Al G[_1_]]

Doesn't a CFII have to have a CFI to apply for the additional rating?

§ 61.191 Additional flight instructor ratings.
(a) A person who applies for an additional flight instructor rating on a
flight instructor certificate must meet the eligibility requirements listed
in § 61.183 of this part that apply to the flight instructor rating sought.
(b) A person who applies for an additional rating on a flight instructor
certificate is not required to pass the knowledge test on the areas listed
in § 61.185(a)(1) of this part.



§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(a) Be at least 18 years of age;

(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If
the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical
reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that
applicant’s flight instructor certificate as are necessary;

(c) Hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot
certificate with

(1) An aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the
flight instructor rating sought; and

(2) An instrument rating, or privileges on that person’s pilot
certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought, if
applying for

(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane
category and single-engine class rating;

(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane
category and multiengine

(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a
powered-lift rating; or

(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument
rating.



"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
>A CFII can not instruct for the airplane rating, so is not
> an authorized instructor for solo, etc. However, most
> instructors will have the airplane rating first, followed by
> the II.
>
>
>
>
> "kevmor" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> | Ok, if you pass the CFII practical test, can you instruct
> as just a
> | CFI also?
> |
> | If your instrument rated, would you get the CFI and CFII
> during the
> | same practical test normally?
> |
> | If you don't become a GI, but pass the CFI practical, can
> you still
> | instruct pre and post-flight? Is the GI mainly if you
> want to
> | instruct in a classroom setting?
> |
> | On Feb 16, 8:50 pm, "Jim Macklin"
> | > wrote:
> | > The IGI is similar to the CFII and IRA tests. The FOI
> is
> | > same series for all instructor ratings. It does expire
> in
> | > 24 calendar months. But when you pass any ground
> instructor
> | > rating, basic or instrument and have the FOI, you just
> apply
> | > for the appropriate certificate. The certificate does
> not
> | > expire and you must have a current valid FOI OR an
> issued
> | > rating.
> | >
> |
>
>

[John Godwin]

"Al G" > wrote in
:

> Doesn't a CFII have to have a CFI to apply for the additional
> rating?

No, CFI-I and CFI-A are not prerequisites for each other.

--

[Roy Smith]

"Al G" > wrote:
> Doesn't a CFII have to have a CFI to apply for the additional rating?

Short answer: No.

There is a common misconception that a "CFII" is a higher class of
certificate than a "plain CFI". This is untrue.

Just like a pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate has ratings.
I've got two ratings on my CFI certificate: single-engine land airplane,
and instrument airplane. It just so happens that I got the SEL rating
first, as my initial instructor rating, and I added the instrument later.
It does not have to be done in that order. Some people get the instrument
first. Some people get other ratings (like glider, or helicopter) as their
initial instructor rating.

Had I gotten my instrument instructor rating first, I would have been
qualified to give instrument instruction to pilots who were already rated
in the airplane. And IPCs. But I could not have given primary
instruction, or BFRs, or instruction towards their commercial.

[Al G[_1_]]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "Al G" > wrote:
>> Doesn't a CFII have to have a CFI to apply for the additional rating?
>
> Short answer: No.
>
> There is a common misconception that a "CFII" is a higher class of
> certificate than a "plain CFI". This is untrue.
>
> Just like a pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate has
> ratings.
> I've got two ratings on my CFI certificate: single-engine land airplane,
> and instrument airplane. It just so happens that I got the SEL rating
> first, as my initial instructor rating, and I added the instrument later.
> It does not have to be done in that order. Some people get the instrument
> first. Some people get other ratings (like glider, or helicopter) as
> their
> initial instructor rating.
>
> Had I gotten my instrument instructor rating first, I would have been
> qualified to give instrument instruction to pilots who were already rated
> in the airplane. And IPCs. But I could not have given primary
> instruction, or BFRs, or instruction towards their commercial.

Thanks gentlemen, I learned something new.

Al G