Intercom question

[Stephen Ahrens]

Hi All,
I have been lurking here for some time now and enjoy some of the very
interesting threads that take place.
Jay always seems to come up with something interesting.
Now I have a question and I hope some of you experienced people don't mind
wading in.
I own a Piper ArcherII PA28-181.
In all the years I have flown this aircraft I haven't used a headset, mainly
because when I have tried it I find it strange not hearing the same engine
sound I have always been used to.
Due to some peer pressure, and mates that fly with me making the suggestion
an intercom would be great, I have now started to think about it.
Not having had any real experience with intercoms, I am wondering what your
thoughts are on the Telex PC4 unit. I have seen one advertised second hand
and because I'm not sure if I will like the thing, I'm thinking a low budget
might be a good idea.
Any thoughts, experiences would be appreciated.

Kind regards
Steve.

[Thomas Borchert]

Stephen,

Wow! Good luck on the hearing part of your medicals for the next years
;-)

Seriously, flying without a headset in an aircraft that noisy is
dangerous to your health. There's little to debate about this.

Obviously, before you buy an intercom, you'll need a headset. Spring
for an active unit, no matter what. You own an airplane, so you'll
likely fly a considerable amount of hours.

> Any thoughts, experiences would be appreciated.

The PC4 seems to be an old unit not in production anymore. I'd get
something current. You can't go wrong with PS Engineering, but they
aren't exactly low budget. For that, the Flightcom 403mc is hard to
beat. For a portable, the cheapo unit from Pilot Avionics, PA-400, is
probably it, but you might invite trouble.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> I have been lurking here for some time now and enjoy some of the very
> interesting threads that take place.

Hi Stephen -- welcome to the group! We need more delurkers...

;-)

You may be the last pilot in the world flying without a headset! I
don't know how you can stand it -- I get a headache if I fly with non-
ANR headsets, nowadays -- but you're obviously cut from the same cloth
as Lindbergh, Knight, and Daltry. (That last guy is Roger Daltry, of
"The Who" -- who is now mostly deaf from his early concert days...)

Anyway, as with all things aviation, more is better. I'd go for a
stereo intercom, so that you can listen to tunes. The cost
differential (in aviation terms) is inconsequential, and the enjoyment
you will reap from it is amazing.

I'd also go for a built-in (rather than portable) solution. When we
first started flying we had a portable Flightcom intercom, and --
while it worked fine -- it was a giant PIA to snake those wires every
which way.

Take a look at some of the PS Engineering stuff. Their owner is a
regular here, and their stuff is bulletproof.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Nathan Young]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:05:42 +1030, Stephen Ahrens
> wrote:

>Hi All,
>I have been lurking here for some time now and enjoy some of the very
>interesting threads that take place.
>Jay always seems to come up with something interesting.
>Now I have a question and I hope some of you experienced people don't mind
>wading in.
>I own a Piper ArcherII PA28-181.
>In all the years I have flown this aircraft I haven't used a headset, mainly
>because when I have tried it I find it strange not hearing the same engine
>sound I have always been used to.
>Due to some peer pressure, and mates that fly with me making the suggestion
>an intercom would be great, I have now started to think about it.
>Not having had any real experience with intercoms, I am wondering what your
>thoughts are on the Telex PC4 unit. I have seen one advertised second hand
>and because I'm not sure if I will like the thing, I'm thinking a low budget
>might be a good idea.
>Any thoughts, experiences would be appreciated.


If you want to retain your hearing for your retirement years, get a
headset immediately! It is well proven that lengthy exposure to high
volume noise (ie GA aircraft cabin) is damaging to hearing.

Choosing a headset is largely personal preference. I have Lightspeed
30-3Gs and 20XLs in my plane and like them a lot. I also flew many
years with non-ANR David Clark 13.4s.

You will still be able to hear the engine, even with a noise
cancelling headset. With my ANR set, I think I can hear the engine
better as the overall noise level is reduced.

No experience with the Telex PC4, but I have had several portable
intercoms in my plane, which worked fine (other than the cords). I
now have a PS Engineering 7000, which is a great intercom/audio
panel/marker beacon receiver. You can't go wrong with that unit.

[Dave Butler]

Stephen Ahrens wrote:

> I own a Piper ArcherII PA28-181.
> In all the years I have flown this aircraft I haven't used a headset, mainly
> because when I have tried it I find it strange not hearing the same engine
> sound I have always been used to.

Hi Steve,

I hope you are using some kind of ear protection, if not a headset. This
is a great hobby, but it's not worth losing your hearing.

I don't think there's any better kind of protection than an active noise
reduction headset. You will quickly accommodate to the different engine
sound. Get one.

I don't have any specific knowledge of the intercom you inquired about,
but the cost of an intercom is small compared to installation cost and
the other costs of owning an airplane. Don't skimp, get a good one. As
others have mentioned PS Engineering has a sterling reputation. Good
products and a good company.

Unlike Jay, I don't value listening to music or having stereo, but
that's a personal choice.

Let us know what you decide and how it works out.

Dave

[Tri-Pacer]

"> Not having had any real experience with intercoms, I am wondering what
your
> thoughts are on the Telex PC4 unit. I have seen one advertised second hand
> and because I'm not sure if I will like the thing, I'm thinking a low
> budget
>

I had a Telex and didn't like it one bit. Removed it and installed a PS
1000.

Just my 2 cents worth.

PS I learned to fly in the 50's and didn't know what a headset was till many
years had passed. My favorite word is HUH?

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Dan Luke]

"Tri-Pacer" wrote:

> installed a PS 1000.
>

I installed one of these 6 years ago. It's performed without a glitch ever
since. Great unit.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[john smith]

> Any thoughts, experiences would be appreciated.

You may want to look at Jim Weir's RST Engineering products.
I have been using one of his two-place, kit built intercoms for 25 years.
His kits have excellent, easy to use instructions.

[Travis Marlatte]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tri-Pacer" wrote:
>
>> installed a PS 1000.
>>
>
> I installed one of these 6 years ago. It's performed without a glitch
> ever since. Great unit.
>
> --
> Dan
> C-172RG at BFM
>
PS. Panel mount. No question. Just get the most minimal system that meets
all of your requirements. Mine: 4-place, stereo, aux audio input. I don't
like listening to music in the air. It just somehow seems wrong. But,
isolate the passengers from the pilot and they jam away and are much more
tolerant of longer trips.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Stephen Ahrens]

Thanks for the great feedback and some of the colourful comments from
everyone ;-)
I understand your thoughts on hearing problems. (Just ask my wife) But this
isn't just a problem from flying.
I actually own a Flightcom Blackhawk 5DX headset and used it on a trip years
ago... (Jay does that count towards not being the last pilot in the world to
use a headset? :-) .. I found it to be not so bad in the cruise but every
time I went to takeoff or land I felt more confident with them off. Then I
couldn't be bothered using them, and of course without an intercom it's a
bit unsociable with the passengers.
After looking at the likes of Thomas, Jay, and Dave's posts I think the
right thing is to spend a little more and get something better. The PS units
do look good and it seems they have some excellent features
In the mean time I will have to dust the Flightcom's off and go do circuits
until I get use to them.

Many thanks guys

Steve
PA28-181
VH TVF

[Thomas Borchert]

Stephen,

> I actually own a Flightcom Blackhawk 5DX
>

No offense, but that's not really a "good" headset. It's about as cheap
as you can go.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Stephen Ahrens]

On 18/2/07 4:44 AM, in article , "Thomas
Borchert" > wrote:

> Stephen,
>
>> I actually own a Flightcom Blackhawk 5DX
>>
>
> No offense, but that's not really a "good" headset. It's about as cheap
> as you can go.


No offence taken Thomas :-)
I'm really please I asked the question, I'm on a steep learning curve here.
Seems I've been under a rock for awhile.

I was actually under the impression they weren't too bad, but hey if you've
never used anything else how would one know.
I bought them second hand on one of my rare visits to the "Pilots Shop". The
chap behind the counter couldn't believe I was flying without a headset, and
that was about 10 years ago ;-)

What are the key things that make a good headset?

[Thomas Borchert]

Stephen,

> What are the key things that make a good headset?
>

Well, these days, Active Noise Reduction (ANR) is the key thing. You'll
hear even less ;-), but that's entirely good. www.anrheadsets.com has a
good 1o1 tutorial on ANR, they also make nice headsets.

Wearing comfort is the other key element. The old David Clark design,
of which you headset is a knock-off, deserves the old moniker "David
Clamp". Ergonomics have improved and such clamping forces aren't
necessary anymore.

Stereo sound, music and cellphone inputs are niceties that are really
important only to some of us. Automatic battery shut-off for the ANR
(which uses 2 AAs for 20 to 50 hours of flying time) keeps you from
forgetting to switch off.

Did I mention ANR?

Have a look at the LightSPEED 20XLc and the more expensive models from
Lightspeed. Look at the DC X11, the Bose and the Sennheiser actives.
Your pilot shop will have them. Yes, we're talking 400 bucks or more,
but think how much you have saved over the years by not using a headset
;-)


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Roy N5804F]

Eh ... and don't forget that the Telex 50D's, having tried them all, the
50D's are magical on my head.
The Telex 30D's more recently introduced at lower cost should be included in
your try outs.
Go to one of the big events like Sun-n-fun or Oshkosh where you can spend
days in the listening booths making a decision that is good for you.

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Stephen,
>
>> What are the key things that make a good headset?
>>
>
> Well, these days, Active Noise Reduction (ANR) is the key thing. You'll
> hear even less ;-), but that's entirely good. www.anrheadsets.com has a
> good 1o1 tutorial on ANR, they also make nice headsets.
>
> Wearing comfort is the other key element. The old David Clark design,
> of which you headset is a knock-off, deserves the old moniker "David
> Clamp". Ergonomics have improved and such clamping forces aren't
> necessary anymore.
>
> Stereo sound, music and cellphone inputs are niceties that are really
> important only to some of us. Automatic battery shut-off for the ANR
> (which uses 2 AAs for 20 to 50 hours of flying time) keeps you from
> forgetting to switch off.
>
> Did I mention ANR?
>
> Have a look at the LightSPEED 20XLc and the more expensive models from
> Lightspeed. Look at the DC X11, the Bose and the Sennheiser actives.
> Your pilot shop will have them. Yes, we're talking 400 bucks or more,
> but think how much you have saved over the years by not using a headset
> ;-)
>
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>
>

[Travis Marlatte]

I have the Sigtronics S-AR and a couple of their passive headsets. I've had
the passive ones for about 10 years. Just replaced the padding and mic
screens last fall. I've had the S-AR for about 5 years (I think). I found
them to be a great value at the time. They've held up well and I don't baby
them.

Comparing price and performance, the David Clark's and Bose just aren't
worth it. I've tried them at the shows. There just isn't enough there to
justify their costs.

I put the Telex Stratus 50D in the same category - although I have not tried
the 50D. They do seem to have the best specs. 50dB of ANR at about the same
weight as others. $699 Sporty's List.

If I were buying again and trying to get the best value, I would look at the
Sig S-AR for $449 or the Telex Stratus 30XT for $499 (both Sporty's List).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Stephen Ahrens[_2_]]

On 19/2/07 1:40 AM, in article , "Thomas
Borchert" > wrote:

> Stephen,
>
>> What are the key things that make a good headset?
>>
>
> Well, these days, Active Noise Reduction (ANR) is the key thing. You'll
> hear even less ;-), but that's entirely good. www.anrheadsets.com has a
> good 1o1 tutorial on ANR, they also make nice headsets.
>
> Wearing comfort is the other key element. The old David Clark design,
> of which you headset is a knock-off, deserves the old moniker "David
> Clamp". Ergonomics have improved and such clamping forces aren't
> necessary anymore.
>
> Stereo sound, music and cellphone inputs are niceties that are really
> important only to some of us. Automatic battery shut-off for the ANR
> (which uses 2 AAs for 20 to 50 hours of flying time) keeps you from
> forgetting to switch off.
>
> Did I mention ANR?
>
> Have a look at the LightSPEED 20XLc and the more expensive models from
> Lightspeed. Look at the DC X11, the Bose and the Sennheiser actives.
> Your pilot shop will have them. Yes, we're talking 400 bucks or more,
> but think how much you have saved over the years by not using a headset
> ;-)
>


Thomas this is great feedback, thank you.
I'll follow up on that web site.
I've found an article on the LightSPEED's on Avweb by Mike Busch from 2000,
and I've noticed Jay always speaks highly of his.
The cell phone aspect would be a benefit for me... (for some reason I have
trouble hearing my phone in the cockpit ;-)... Must be the poor design of
the speaker in the phone, obviously not big enough.

Steve
PA28 181
VH TVF

[Stephen Ahrens[_2_]]

On 19/2/07 2:32 AM, in article
et, "Roy N5804F"
> wrote:

> Eh ... and don't forget that the Telex 50D's, having tried them all, the
> 50D's are magical on my head.
> The Telex 30D's more recently introduced at lower cost should be included in
> your try outs.
> Go to one of the big events like Sun-n-fun or Oshkosh where you can spend
> days in the listening booths making a decision that is good for you.
>
> --
> Roy
> Piper Archer N5804F

Thanks Roy.

I would love to get to Oshkosh some day... But I'm not planing a trip over
the pond for awhile just yet :-)

Steve
Piper ArcherII
VH TVF

[Stephen Ahrens[_2_]]

On 19/2/07 8:03 AM, in article
, "Travis Marlatte"
> wrote:

> I have the Sigtronics S-AR and a couple of their passive headsets. I've had
> the passive ones for about 10 years. Just replaced the padding and mic
> screens last fall. I've had the S-AR for about 5 years (I think). I found
> them to be a great value at the time. They've held up well and I don't baby
> them.
>
> Comparing price and performance, the David Clark's and Bose just aren't
> worth it. I've tried them at the shows. There just isn't enough there to
> justify their costs.
>
> I put the Telex Stratus 50D in the same category - although I have not tried
> the 50D. They do seem to have the best specs. 50dB of ANR at about the same
> weight as others. $699 Sporty's List.
>
> If I were buying again and trying to get the best value, I would look at the
> Sig S-AR for $449 or the Telex Stratus 30XT for $499 (both Sporty's List).
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK
>
>
Thanks Travis,
Your comments on the passive headsets are interesting, I've noted that the
Avweb article on LightSPEED talks about the QFR series being great value for
a passive headset.

Steve
ArcherII
VH TVF

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:02:00 +1030, Stephen Ahrens
> wrote:

>
>On 19/2/07 8:03 AM, in article
, "Travis Marlatte"
> wrote:
>
>> I have the Sigtronics S-AR and a couple of their passive headsets. I've had
>> the passive ones for about 10 years. Just replaced the padding and mic
>> screens last fall. I've had the S-AR for about 5 years (I think). I found
>> them to be a great value at the time. They've held up well and I don't baby
>> them.
>>
>> Comparing price and performance, the David Clark's and Bose just aren't
>> worth it. I've tried them at the shows. There just isn't enough there to
>> justify their costs.
>>
>> I put the Telex Stratus 50D in the same category - although I have not tried
>> the 50D. They do seem to have the best specs. 50dB of ANR at about the same
>> weight as others. $699 Sporty's List.
>>
>> If I were buying again and trying to get the best value, I would look at the
>> Sig S-AR for $449 or the Telex Stratus 30XT for $499 (both Sporty's List).
>> -------------------------------
>> Travis
>> Lake N3094P
>> PWK
>>
>>
>Thanks Travis,
>Your comments on the passive headsets are interesting, I've noted that the
>Avweb article on LightSPEED talks about the QFR series being great value for
>a passive headset.
>
>Steve
>ArcherII
>VH TVF
>
I have the QFR solo headsets and I'm very pleased with them. They fit
well ,are light and comfortable. They are passive headsets first with
not much additional damping from the ANR but enough that I think it
was worth getting.

[Travis Marlatte]

"Stephen Ahrens" > wrote in message
...
>
> On 19/2/07 8:03 AM, in article
> , "Travis Marlatte"
> > wrote:
>
>> I have the Sigtronics S-AR and a couple of their passive headsets. I've
>> had
>> the passive ones for about 10 years. Just replaced the padding and mic
>>
> Thanks Travis,
> Your comments on the passive headsets are interesting, I've noted that the
> Avweb article on LightSPEED talks about the QFR series being great value
> for
> a passive headset.
>
> Steve
> ArcherII
> VH TVF
>

I hope that you did not take my passing comment about having passive
headsets as a point in a direction other than ANR. Do not, and I repeat, DO
NOT buy passive headsets for yourself as the pilot. I bought passive
headsets a long time ago and I will never buy another pair.

I have ANR for myself and my frequent co-pilot - both sigtronics S-AR. I
have two passive headsets (also sigtronics) that I use for the backseat
passengers only because that is a fairly infrequent event. I would have ANR
headsets for as many people as you regularly go flying with.

As my headsets fail (if they ever do!), I will replace them with a
reasonably priced ANR set and sequence them in the plane as appropriate. In
other words, I will buy the best damn pair of ANR that I can afford and it
will become mine, mine, MINE, ALL MINE, I tell you!

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Stephen Ahrens]

On 20/2/07 12:24 AM, in article
, "Travis Marlatte"
> wrote:

> "Stephen Ahrens" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> On 19/2/07 8:03 AM, in article
>> , "Travis Marlatte"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I have the Sigtronics S-AR and a couple of their passive headsets. I've
>>> had
>>> the passive ones for about 10 years. Just replaced the padding and mic
>>>
>> Thanks Travis,
>> Your comments on the passive headsets are interesting, I've noted that the
>> Avweb article on LightSPEED talks about the QFR series being great value
>> for
>> a passive headset.
>>
>> Steve
>> ArcherII
>> VH TVF
>>
>
> I hope that you did not take my passing comment about having passive
> headsets as a point in a direction other than ANR. Do not, and I repeat, DO
> NOT buy passive headsets for yourself as the pilot. I bought passive
> headsets a long time ago and I will never buy another pair.
>
> I have ANR for myself and my frequent co-pilot - both sigtronics S-AR. I
> have two passive headsets (also sigtronics) that I use for the backseat
> passengers only because that is a fairly infrequent event. I would have ANR
> headsets for as many people as you regularly go flying with.
>
> As my headsets fail (if they ever do!), I will replace them with a
> reasonably priced ANR set and sequence them in the plane as appropriate. In
> other words, I will buy the best damn pair of ANR that I can afford and it
> will become mine, mine, MINE, ALL MINE, I tell you!

Thanks Travis, I think I get your point :-)

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Dave Butler > wrote:
> > I own a Piper ArcherII PA28-181.
> > In all the years I have flown this aircraft I haven't used a headset, mainly
> > because when I have tried it I find it strange not hearing the same engine
> > sound I have always been used to.
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I hope you are using some kind of ear protection, if not a headset. This
> is a great hobby, but it's not worth losing your hearing.

The Archer isn't all that loud. I can carry on a conversation in a
normal speaking volume in my Archer while in cruise. Apart from that,
the low frequency noise poses much less of a short-term risk for
noise-induced hearing loss.

That being said, I use a headset in my airplane, and can't imagine
flying for very long without one, especially when radio work is required.

While ANR headsets may be the way to go, it is important to understand
that there is _NO_ clinical evidence that ANR does anything to preserve
a person's hearing over passive attenuation.



JKG

[Thomas Borchert]

Jonathan,

> The Archer isn't all that loud.
>

It's ok that you like your plane, but that's just, uhm, ridiculous.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> Jonathan,
>
> > The Archer isn't all that loud.
> >
>
> It's ok that you like your plane, but that's just, uhm, ridiculous.


I didn't comment on whether I do or do not like my airplane.

The layman's litmus test for whether ambient noise may be damaging is
whether or not you can carry on a normal conversation without raising
your voice to do so. If you can, the ambient noise level is no more
damaging than the normal speaking voice. I suspect that many folks play
their automobile radios at a higher volume than that required to carry
on a conversation in an Archer during cruise. In my particular case, my
airplane was equipped with the "super soundproofing," so such insulation
and thicker windshield undoubtedly contribute to reducing the noise
level in my airplane.

Thomas, you seem to be a perpetual presence in every thread having to do
with headsets or hearing protection while flying. Not only do you
appear to have some undisclosed personal interest in promoting
LIghtSpeed headsets, but you continue to lead folks to believe that ANR
headsets somehow contribute to "preserving" their hearing over passive
attenuation sets. Yet, you have never cited any data to support your
claim. You are not alone. I have never witnessed anyone else cite any
applicable, peer-reviewed, clinical studies that show any benefit to ANR
for hearing protection.

There may be a benefit to ANR for comfort, or for fatigue, etc, but all
of those evaluations are quite subjective. There's a big difference
between an opinion on comfort and using fear of permanent hearing loss
to promote a product.



JKG

[Thomas Borchert]

Jonathan,

> Thomas, you seem to be a perpetual presence in every thread having to do
> with headsets or hearing protection while flying.

Yep. I'm simply interested in the topic.

> Not only do you
> appear to have some undisclosed personal interest in promoting
> LIghtSpeed headsets,

Nope. I simply like mine. I also like what the company brought to the
market - innovation at a low price. That's a fact I'd like to see disputed.
My wife has a pilot shop selling several brands of headsets. Lightspeeds
are currently not sold in Germany. They were, though.

> but you continue to lead folks to believe that ANR
> headsets somehow contribute to "preserving" their hearing over passive
> attenuation sets.

Nope. I just point to the facts as known, including the well known and
supported fact that ANR for many frequencies will lower the audio pressure
a microphone positioned at the point where your ear would be while wearing
the headset is subjected to. Whether or not that preserves your hearing I
have not said. You may quote any statement you have seen me make saying
anything remotely like you claim above.

> I have never witnessed anyone else cite any
> applicable, peer-reviewed, clinical studies that show any benefit to ANR
> for hearing protection.

So what? I have not seen you cite evidence to the contrary.

What I have seen is your being a perpetual presence in every thread having
to do with headsets or hearing protection while flying. You appear to have
some undisclosed axe to grind against ANR. You continue to lead folks to
believe that ANR headsets somehow do NOT contribute to lowering noise for
the wearer of the headset.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Thomas,

I need to be more precise:

> My wife has a pilot shop selling several brands of headsets.

That shop is in Germany.

> Lightspeeds
> are currently not sold in Germany.

And that would exclude the Mach 1, which is sold here.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)