Organizational Skills Required During Instrument Flight

[[email protected]]

What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
(or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
use? Velcro? Your pocket?


I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
idea to me.

Steve
PP ASEL
Instrument student

[Dane Spearing]

First and most important rule: Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS)! The more complex
of an organizational method you have, the more likely it is to fail.

I do use a kneeboard, with a pen holder on it. On the kneeboard is some
scratch paper, and usually the enroute chart I'm using at the moment.
I have a digital kitchen timer on the yoke for timing approaches along with
a simple clip below it for holding the approach plate in use. That way,
I don't have to divert my eyes too far from my scan when checking the
approach plate.

Do I write down every single clearance? No. Not if it's simple, like
"turn left to heading 270, descend and maintain 5,000". I also don't usually
write down approach clearances because you usually know what approach
they're going to give you ahead of time, and the last thing I want do to
during the approach phase of flight is take my attention away from the panel.
That said, sometimes those approach clearances can get fairly complex and it
may be worth jotting down the pertinent info.

For departure clearances, I have a sheet of blank paper on which I write
"CRAFTS" vertically along the left side for "Clearance, Route, Altitude,
Frequency, Transponder, Special" that I can fill in when given my clearance.

Keep your cockpit clutter to a minimum, and keep things as simple
as possible. The purpose of cockpit organization is so that you can
focus on the important things, like flying the airplane.

-- Dane

In article om>,
> wrote:
>What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
>kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
>you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
>scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
>altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
>(or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
>use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
>
>I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
>Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
>other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
>idea to me.
>
>Steve
>PP ASEL
>Instrument student
>

[C J Campbell]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:33:49 -0800, wrote
(in article om>):

> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.

Sure it is. Lots of pilots use the clipboard with great success.

Personally, I just put everything into a 3 ring binder in the order that I
will use it. The binder has a clip on it to hold the approach plate. I do not
use a kneeboard. I use the clock in the airplane for a timer. If things are
not in use they go in the pocket behind the right seat. I put approach plate
binders, en route charts, etc. usually on the floor between the seats.

I do not write everything down. Instead I use bugs to remind me of things if
I need it. I write down my initial clearance and sometimes the clearance for
approach if it is complicated. Otherwise, I have better things to do than to
stick my head down in the cockpit. What I do write down goes on a small
spiral notepad that fits in my pocket.

My ideal flying togs would have pencil holders on the shirt sleeve, like AF
flight suits have.

I always enlist the aid of the right seat passenger to help with paper
handling. It helps to keep them from getting board during the flight.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Roy Smith]

wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?

In real life, I use the other seat as my desk. If somebody is sitting on
my desk, they get to hold charts, hand me things, etc. If I'm flying solo,
my flight bag goes on the seat with everything I need in it. That
generally means sectional or en-route chart, one or more book of approach
plates (I use the bound NOS books), and a small spiral notebook which I use
for copying clearances, and as a rough logbook. You can never have enough
pens, and at night, you can never have enough flashlights (I'm partial to
the 2-AA MiniMaglight.

The kneeboard thing might make sense in a single-seat fighter, but I don't
fly single-seat fighters.

I used to have nice little Radio Shack timers that I would velcro to the
yoke. Now, I suppose I've gotten lazy and/or spoiled, but I've got
count-down timers built into the GPS I use, but most of the time I don't
even use a timer, since the GPS tells you when you're at the MAP, and draws
you a picture of every hold and procedure turn that you can just follow the
purple line. If I really do want to time a minute, I usually find the
easiest thing to do is glance at my watch, and just keep going until the
same number of seconds is showing in the display as the first time. Does
any of that meet some PTS-inspired concept of best practices? I have no
idea, but it's what I do in real life and it seems to work.

Charts (be they a sectional or an en-route) tend to get wedged into a
corner of the windshield.

I write down my initial clearance, and any re-routes I get in the air.
Assigned headings just get dialed right into the heading bug (whether I'm
using the AP or not). For altitude assignements, I'll generally just turn
the #2 OBS to it (i.e. for "climb and maintain 5000", I'll twist the OBS to
050).

[Tony]

I use a spiral bound notebook, 5.5 by about 8 inches -- it's easy to
tuck a pencil in the spring. WX info on the top of the sheet, flight
plan under that, clearance under that. Ilist frequencies in a column
down the extreme right hand edge, fixes with eta, ata, and time over
destination down the left hand side. Clearance modifications are
recorded as they are given, and approach details make it easy to refer
to. You won't find yourself wondering if you were cleared to 3000 or
2000 if you see a down arrow and 3000 written there.

The notebook has a rubber band around it, that holds maps, calculators
and so on. You simply don't need to have a lot of paper active in the
cockpit, this system is a reasonable starting place for you to develop
your own way of doing it.

The neat thing is each notebook sheet records the details of a flight
much better than your log book entry will, and a full notebook, with
its 60 pages, can hold easily a hundred flights. I use the back pages
for FSS phone numbers, flight plan forms, that sort of thing.

No kneeboards for me, at least half my flights are business related
and I don't want my suit pants to look like I had something strapped
to the leg.

Try it even VFR, it works just as well, and you'll notice how easy it
is to take notes and the like. You'll probably organize the pad
differently than I do, but once you decide on how you want to record
things, do it that way all of the time, it will, I promise you, make
things a lot easier as you gain experience.

Figure out a better way and then tell us about it!


wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.
>
> Steve
> PP ASEL
> Instrument student

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 18, 9:33 pm, wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.
>
> Steve
> PP ASEL
> Instrument student

The fewer things you have with you in the cockpit, the simpler
everything becomes. Leave everything in your flight bag but somewhere
within reach, and grab only what you really need. In a training
environment our students are trained as if every flight is an
emergency, and to be prepared for the worst. Nothing wrong with that,
but you have to decide the correct balance of things to carry for each
flight to minimize clutter and workload.

I clip the weather and flight planning printouts to the kneeboard.
That also doubles as my scratch paper. Attaching a string is a good
idea, but I have never done it. I carry one pen for multiple things
(signing logbooks and such), so tying it to the clipboard would be
inconvenient.

My wrist watch serves as the timer if I ever need one. I don't bother
timing the approach unless the weather is near minimum. All my charts
stay in the bag, and I only rip out the pages I need. For the most
part, the NACO chart book stays in my flight bag (which could be
outdated), and I fly with individually printed approach charts.

I don't write everything down. Squawk codes and radio frequencies get
loaded into the stack right away as I am reading them back to the
controller. I only write down stuff that the controller starts with
"advice when ready to copy". If an instruction is too lengthy and I
happen to miss something, I can always ask it to be repeated. It
doesn't happen often enough to worry about hogging the frequency.

Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.

[Roy Smith]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
> from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
> too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.

Flashlights come in two styles.

Style 1 has a wrist lanyard attached to it. These get hung over a horn of
the yoke.

Style 2 has no laynard. These get lost under the seat.

[Dan[_1_]]

I like the tip about using OBS #2 to hold altitude assignments! As
far as the flashlight goes, I have one that hangs around my neck on a
lanyard. I don't bother timing my approaches. With 2 GPS units and
associated situational awareness, timing is a waste of time.

--Dan



On Feb 18, 8:50 pm, "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> On Feb 18, 9:33 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > idea to me.
>
> > Steve
> > PP ASEL
> > Instrument student
>
> The fewer things you have with you in the cockpit, the simpler
> everything becomes. Leave everything in your flight bag but somewhere
> within reach, and grab only what you really need. In a training
> environment our students are trained as if every flight is an
> emergency, and to be prepared for the worst. Nothing wrong with that,
> but you have to decide the correct balance of things to carry for each
> flight to minimize clutter and workload.
>
> I clip the weather and flight planning printouts to the kneeboard.
> That also doubles as my scratch paper. Attaching a string is a good
> idea, but I have never done it. I carry one pen for multiple things
> (signing logbooks and such), so tying it to the clipboard would be
> inconvenient.
>
> My wrist watch serves as the timer if I ever need one. I don't bother
> timing the approach unless the weather is near minimum. All my charts
> stay in the bag, and I only rip out the pages I need. For the most
> part, the NACO chart book stays in my flight bag (which could be
> outdated), and I fly with individually printed approach charts.
>
> I don't write everything down. Squawk codes and radio frequencies get
> loaded into the stack right away as I am reading them back to the
> controller. I only write down stuff that the controller starts with
> "advice when ready to copy". If an instruction is too lengthy and I
> happen to miss something, I can always ask it to be repeated. It
> doesn't happen often enough to worry about hogging the frequency.
>
> Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
> from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
> too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 9:54 pm, Roy Smith > wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> > Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
> > from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
> > too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.
>
> Flashlights come in two styles.
>
> Style 1 has a wrist lanyard attached to it. These get hung over a horn of
> the yoke.
>
> Style 2 has no laynard. These get lost under the seat.


How about flashlights attached to your head? Or your headset? I
tried one of the LED "headlights", but it gave me a headache after
awhile. It was sure was convenient though! Does anyone use the neck
lights, seatbelt lights, ballcap lights, and even tongue switch lights
they advertise in Sportys and Spruce?

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 10:59 pm, "Dan" > wrote:
> I like the tip about using OBS #2 to hold altitude assignments! As
> far as the flashlight goes, I have one that hangs around my neck on a
> lanyard. I don't bother timing my approaches. With 2 GPS units and
> associated situational awareness, timing is a waste of time.
>
> --Dan
>
Except when you need the OBS #2 for navigation! It sounds like GPS
navigation is now the norm. One of the planes I fly has a GNS-430,
but the other just has 2 old fashioned VOR's. Plus of course my
Lowrance 2000C, which I use for situation awareness only. But since
I'm still a student, I don't bring along the portable yet. I don't
think the examiner would appreciate it.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it?


I've got a kneeboard that I bolted an analog stopwatch to (on the clip). As for
pens, I carry a couple in my shirt pocket, and about a half dozen more in my
flight case. For night flights, I keep a mini maglite in my shirt pocket... the
one that takes the AAA batteries.... as I can hold it in my mouth if need be
until I have something better worked out. Two additional lights in the flight
case.

As for clearances, I write the original one. After that I usually just go by
memory unless there's a multipart change or I'm in an unfamiliar area where I
don't know where places are without resorting to a chart. But I seldom write
down a frequency, heading or altitude change. I can keep them in my head.

Flip flop radios are particularly handy for frequency changes: old frequency on
one side, new on the other. If nobody's at home on the new, just flip it back
to the old.

I keep my flight case between the seats or on the unoccupied front seat if I'm
alone.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

wrote:
> How about flashlights attached to your head? Or your headset? I
> tried one of the LED "headlights", but it gave me a headache after
> awhile. It was sure was convenient though! Does anyone use the neck
> lights, seatbelt lights, ballcap lights, and even tongue switch lights
> they advertise in Sportys and Spruce?


While I like the idea of a flashlight on a headband of some sort, it interferes
with my headset. So I use the 2 cell AAA mini maglite as my first line of
defense. It's clipped to my shirt pocket.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 9:33 pm, (Dane Spearing) wrote:
> First and most important rule: Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS)! The more complex
> of an organizational method you have, the more likely it is to fail.
>
> I do use a kneeboard, with a pen holder on it. On the kneeboard is some
> scratch paper, and usually the enroute chart I'm using at the moment.
> I have a digital kitchen timer on the yoke for timing approaches along with
> a simple clip below it for holding the approach plate in use. That way,
> I don't have to divert my eyes too far from my scan when checking the
> approach plate.
>
> Do I write down every single clearance? No. Not if it's simple, like
> "turn left to heading 270, descend and maintain 5,000". I also don't usually
> write down approach clearances because you usually know what approach
> they're going to give you ahead of time, and the last thing I want do to
> during the approach phase of flight is take my attention away from the panel.
> That said, sometimes those approach clearances can get fairly complex and it
> may be worth jotting down the pertinent info.
>
> For departure clearances, I have a sheet of blank paper on which I write
> "CRAFTS" vertically along the left side for "Clearance, Route, Altitude,
> Frequency, Transponder, Special" that I can fill in when given my clearance.
>
> Keep your cockpit clutter to a minimum, and keep things as simple
> as possible. The purpose of cockpit organization is so that you can
> focus on the important things, like flying the airplane.
>
> -- Dane
>
> In article om>,
>
> > wrote:
> >What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> >kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> >you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> >scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> >altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> >(or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> >use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> >I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> >Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> >other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> >idea to me.
>
> >Steve
> >PP ASEL
> >Instrument student

I had an excellent instructor tell me about the CRAFTS acronym almost
5 years ago, but I had forgotten all about it! Ethyl was in her 80's
and flew during WWII with the WASPs. She had both airplane and
helicopter instrument instructor ratings. She must not have weighed
more than 90 lbs, and had to sit on a pillow to see out. But she
would smack you on the right leg if you weren't using enough rudder!
In her day she taught most of the pilots in our town how to fly, but
Lord help you if you were on her bad side!

She finally retired about 2 years ago, and moved out of town with her
daughter. We miss her.

I agree with KISS principle. I'm hearing a lot of good ideas here.
My trouble for now is when I put on the IQ reducer (a.k.a. foggles) my
short term memory (and long term, and computing ability) tends to go
south, so if I don't write everything down I start doubting myself
halfway through that turn or altitude change (did he say a heading of
240 or 250?). I like the idea of using bugs and unused navigation
equipment to note the numbers.

Thanks!

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 9:42 pm, C J Campbell
> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:33:49 -0800, wrote
> (in article om>):
>
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > idea to me.
>
> Sure it is. Lots of pilots use the clipboard with great success.
>
> Personally, I just put everything into a 3 ring binder in the order that I
> will use it. The binder has a clip on it to hold the approach plate. I do not
> use a kneeboard. I use the clock in the airplane for a timer. If things are
> not in use they go in the pocket behind the right seat. I put approach plate
> binders, en route charts, etc. usually on the floor between the seats.
>
> I do not write everything down. Instead I use bugs to remind me of things if
> I need it. I write down my initial clearance and sometimes the clearance for
> approach if it is complicated. Otherwise, I have better things to do than to
> stick my head down in the cockpit. What I do write down goes on a small
> spiral notepad that fits in my pocket.
>
> My ideal flying togs would have pencil holders on the shirt sleeve, like AF
> flight suits have.
>
> I always enlist the aid of the right seat passenger to help with paper
> handling. It helps to keep them from getting board during the flight.
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 9:46 pm, Roy Smith > wrote:
> wrote:
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> In real life, I use the other seat as my desk. If somebody is sitting on
> my desk, they get to hold charts, hand me things, etc. If I'm flying solo,
> my flight bag goes on the seat with everything I need in it. That
> generally means sectional or en-route chart, one or more book of approach
> plates (I use the bound NOS books), and a small spiral notebook which I use
> for copying clearances, and as a rough logbook. You can never have enough
> pens, and at night, you can never have enough flashlights (I'm partial to
> the 2-AA MiniMaglight.
>
> The kneeboard thing might make sense in a single-seat fighter, but I don't
> fly single-seat fighters.
>
> I used to have nice little Radio Shack timers that I would velcro to the
> yoke. Now, I suppose I've gotten lazy and/or spoiled, but I've got
> count-down timers built into the GPS I use, but most of the time I don't
> even use a timer, since the GPS tells you when you're at the MAP, and draws
> you a picture of every hold and procedure turn that you can just follow the
> purple line. If I really do want to time a minute, I usually find the
> easiest thing to do is glance at my watch, and just keep going until the
> same number of seconds is showing in the display as the first time. Does
> any of that meet some PTS-inspired concept of best practices? I have no
> idea, but it's what I do in real life and it seems to work.
>
> Charts (be they a sectional or an en-route) tend to get wedged into a
> corner of the windshield.
>
> I write down my initial clearance, and any re-routes I get in the air.
> Assigned headings just get dialed right into the heading bug (whether I'm
> using the AP or not). For altitude assignements, I'll generally just turn
> the #2 OBS to it (i.e. for "climb and maintain 5000", I'll twist the OBS to
> 050).

I also use the right seat for my desk flying VFR (when not occupied),
but I'm not sure the examiner will want to hold my paperwork for me.
Once I get past that daunting hurdle, I will enlist my passengers as
paperwork holders / runway lights caller outers / and plane spotters.

Thanks

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 9:48 pm, "Tony" > wrote:
> I use a spiral bound notebook, 5.5 by about 8 inches -- it's easy to
> tuck a pencil in the spring. WX info on the top of the sheet, flight
> plan under that, clearance under that. Ilist frequencies in a column
> down the extreme right hand edge, fixes with eta, ata, and time over
> destination down the left hand side. Clearance modifications are
> recorded as they are given, and approach details make it easy to refer
> to. You won't find yourself wondering if you were cleared to 3000 or
> 2000 if you see a down arrow and 3000 written there.
>
> The notebook has a rubber band around it, that holds maps, calculators
> and so on. You simply don't need to have a lot of paper active in the
> cockpit, this system is a reasonable starting place for you to develop
> your own way of doing it.
>
> The neat thing is each notebook sheet records the details of a flight
> much better than your log book entry will, and a full notebook, with
> its 60 pages, can hold easily a hundred flights. I use the back pages
> for FSS phone numbers, flight plan forms, that sort of thing.
>
> No kneeboards for me, at least half my flights are business related
> and I don't want my suit pants to look like I had something strapped
> to the leg.
>
> Try it even VFR, it works just as well, and you'll notice how easy it
> is to take notes and the like. You'll probably organize the pad
> differently than I do, but once you decide on how you want to record
> things, do it that way all of the time, it will, I promise you, make
> things a lot easier as you gain experience.
>
> Figure out a better way and then tell us about it!
>
> wrote:
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > idea to me.
>
> > Steve
> > PP ASEL
> > Instrument student

I like the idea of a spiral notebook! Not only do you get rid of the
loose sheets, you have a built in pencil holder. I'm not sure I
understand how you use a rubber band to hold maps, calculators, etc.
while you are using it. Do you only use one page for each flight and
just open it to that page, or is the rubber band just used for
transporting the accessories to the plane?

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 11:41 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:
> wrote:
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it?
>
> I've got a kneeboard that I bolted an analog stopwatch to (on the clip).

I've been thinking about using an analog stopwatch, rather than the
digital models. I sure like an analog watch better, and it seems
like it would easier to note the passage of one minute using this
device. Do they still sell them?

>
> As for clearances, I write the original one. After that I usually just go by
> memory unless there's a multipart change or I'm in an unfamiliar area where I
> don't know where places are without resorting to a chart. But I seldom write
> down a frequency, heading or altitude change. I can keep them in my head.
>

Not me, at least not reliably. I hope that I get smarter and can
devote more brain cell cycles to short term memory once I get better
at flying the plane by reference to instruments! In the mean time
it's safer for me to write everything down. These responses are
giving me hope that this won't always be the case!

> Flip flop radios are particularly handy for frequency changes: old frequency on
> one side, new on the other. If nobody's at home on the new, just flip it back
> to the old.

Unfortunately, not with KX-170B's. :-(

> I keep my flight case between the seats or on the unoccupied front seat if I'm
> alone.

Not much room between the seats in a Warrior or Dakota. I'll have to
settle for the lap of my passenger (or instructor, but probably not
the examiner).

>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[tscottme]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

>
> Not me, at least not reliably. I hope that I get smarter and can
> devote more brain cell cycles to short term memory once I get better
> at flying the plane by reference to instruments! In the mean time
> it's safer for me to write everything down. These responses are
> giving me hope that this won't always be the case!
>

The more you fly the more you will come to anticipate what to expect. That
makes remembering things far easier than when you are a student. This
change is akin to learning a new language. As a native English speaker I
don't have to decode every utterance of someone and match it up with the one
right word in an English dictionary. Once you engage in conversation you
will take special note of the important words with meaning. If you were to
try to have the same conversation in another language you would have to
devote vast mental energy to every syllable and try to rapidly assemble the
collection of syllables into words as you scrambled to remember the English
meaning of those sounds. That would be a lot of hard work for anyone doing
the same thing. Most of the problem you are is having to rapidly recognize
and decode unusual items with almost no ability to anticipate what is coming
next.

--

Scott

[Thomas Borchert]

> How about flashlights attached to your head? Or your headset?
>

I've got one attaching to the headset, tinted green. Priceless! It was
called Navihawk or some such, but I think they have gone out of
business.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

> How many folks use a kneeboard?

I do. Zuluworks Zuluboard with binder rings, so that approach plates go
in there, too. I take them out to the yoke clip when I know which one I
need. I put STARs, Approaches and SIDs in one plastic pocket each. The
Zulupad form is nicely tailored too IFR flying, too.

> What kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where
> do you put it?

The ASA stopwatch. I know, it's expensive and kitchen timers do the
trick. But I use the ASA timer for holds, approaches, fuel tank
switching and getting "the time" both in Zulu and local. All that in one
gimmick - that's worth the money to me. It goes on the velcro top of the
ASA yoke clip I use. It does cover part of the panel, but one can easily
work around it.

> Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper?

Kneeboard and the side pocket in our plane, right by the knee. That's
where the laminated checklists go, too. I clip them to the yoke until
take-off, because that's when there is much to read.

> How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change?

Full clearances, yes. Headings, altitudes, transponder codes and freqs,
no, unless they are part of a clearance I'm writing down anyway (CRAFT
is a nice acronym for that: Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, Freq,
Transponder). But we have a transponder with buttons.

> How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?

The Zuluboards have these nice big pen holder pockets. Really neat, they
work well in turbulence. For dropping protection, I have several pens in
those pockets.

One thing I haven't figured out yet is where to put the handheld backup
GPS (we have a Garmin 430 in the plane). I would NEVER fly without at
least a handheld GPS in IMC (if there is none in the panel - if there
is, I still like the backup). The cost of that safety device has become
trivial, with the Lowrance Airmap 500 or 600c. One can put it on the
yoke, and I would if it were my primary GPS, to have it in the scan. But
in my set-up, it then gets obscured by anything on the yoke clip.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Dan,

> I like the tip about using OBS #2 to hold altitude assignments!
>

We've got one of those extra pointer thingies Sporty's sell put on the
altimeter, with movable markers. Perfect - but not for renters.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Kevin Clarke]

tscottme wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>> Not me, at least not reliably. I hope that I get smarter and can
>> devote more brain cell cycles to short term memory once I get better
>> at flying the plane by reference to instruments! In the mean time
>> it's safer for me to write everything down. These responses are
>> giving me hope that this won't always be the case!
>>
>
> The more you fly the more you will come to anticipate what to expect. That
> makes remembering things far easier than when you are a student. This
> change is akin to learning a new language. As a native English speaker I
> don't have to decode every utterance of someone and match it up with the one
> right word in an English dictionary. Once you engage in conversation you
> will take special note of the important words with meaning. If you were to
> try to have the same conversation in another language you would have to
> devote vast mental energy to every syllable and try to rapidly assemble the
> collection of syllables into words as you scrambled to remember the English
> meaning of those sounds. That would be a lot of hard work for anyone doing
> the same thing. Most of the problem you are is having to rapidly recognize
> and decode unusual items with almost no ability to anticipate what is coming
> next.
>

Exactly. The hardest part of instrument training for me thus far has
been the clearances. But the last two times out, especially last night,
I finally got it. I even sounded (to my ears) smooth. It is really
difficult to fly the plane and listen while in the back of your mind
you're thinking about all the stuff the clearance is telling you,
altitude turn the plane, set the radios etc.

As for organization, I have the analog clock in the Cherokee Challenger
(my favorite part of the plane) and a digital kitchen timer that is
stuck on a blanking plate on the radio stack, ie: out of the way.

I use a kneeboard with enroute chart on top, then scratch paper and then
then checklist underneath that. don't forget your checklist. I have my
checkride this Friday. The PTS mentions the "proper use of checklists"
so I made up my own that incorporates the plane checklist with the IFR
checklists I had. Now I have 1 nice one to refer to. I'll share it if
you want. It has all the emergency stuff on there too.

I wear a baseball hat with a pen stuck into the band near my head. We
also have a wad of velcro on the dash with an extra pen stuck on that.
Plus the plane logbook has extra pens. That goes in between the back
seats. I also keep my loose plates in the binder back there. It is all
within easy reach.

Plates go on a yoke clip. All the plates I may need including the plates
for the departure airport. Plates are in order of use. I think that is
all of it. Oh yeah, flashlights. Each side pocket has a flashlight and
my flight bag (on the back seat if passengers) otherwise on the front
seat has a flashlight. I try to keep as many things as I can triple
redundant.

Good luck with the training. It is very intense.

KC

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 19, 12:32 am, wrote:
> On Feb 18, 9:54 pm, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
> > "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> > > Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
> > > from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
> > > too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.
>
> > Flashlights come in two styles.
>
> > Style 1 has a wrist lanyard attached to it. These get hung over a horn of
> > the yoke.
>
> > Style 2 has no laynard. These get lost under the seat.
>
> How about flashlights attached to your head? Or your headset? I
> tried one of the LED "headlights", but it gave me a headache after
> awhile. It was sure was convenient though! Does anyone use the neck
> lights, seatbelt lights, ballcap lights, and even tongue switch lights
> they advertise in Sportys and Spruce?

I once considered the headset mounting arrangement but wasn't too
crazy about it. Every time I had to illuminate something I had to turn
my head towards it instead of turning my eyeballs. I found that I was
reaching for the flashlight and turning it by hand. Since excessive
head movements are not the best thing in IMC, I abandoned this
practice. I now carry an LED flashlight. Sometimes I do lose it. I
have to try Roy's suggestion of attaching it to a lanyard.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 3:28 am, "tscottme" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Not me, at least not reliably. I hope that I get smarter and can
> > devote more brain cell cycles to short term memory once I get better
> > at flying the plane by reference to instruments! In the mean time
> > it's safer for me to write everything down. These responses are
> > giving me hope that this won't always be the case!
>
> The more you fly the more you will come to anticipate what to expect. That
> makes remembering things far easier than when you are a student. This
> change is akin to learning a new language. As a native English speaker I
> don't have to decode every utterance of someone and match it up with the one
> right word in an English dictionary. Once you engage in conversation you
> will take special note of the important words with meaning. If you were to
> try to have the same conversation in another language you would have to
> devote vast mental energy to every syllable and try to rapidly assemble the
> collection of syllables into words as you scrambled to remember the English
> meaning of those sounds. That would be a lot of hard work for anyone doing
> the same thing. Most of the problem you are is having to rapidly recognize
> and decode unusual items with almost no ability to anticipate what is coming
> next.
>
> --
>
> Scott

I know this is at least partially true. I learned to fly at an
uncontrolled field, so at first I had limited exposure to the ATC
lingo and was frequently tongue tied. I am now based at a Class D
airport, so I've gotten much better at VFR verbiage. I know my IFR
language skills are still dismal (what did he just say?). The
combination of so much thought going into actually flying the
airplane, adjusting the radios, reading the approach, and having ATC
say something I wasn't expecting can put me in brain overload
sometimes! Practice, practice, practice!!!

[dlevy]

I fly with two of these.
I write down every frequency change. It's not a big deal and on the return
flight it's nice to have all the frequencies written down so you know what
to expect.

I don't fly ifr that much. I always consider those radios (vor's and an
ndb) as primary navigation. It's a simple matter to to glance at the gps
(396) to verify. If you are a student, I would suggest a 396 and spend a
bit of time learning it. You can quickly load the approaches and
graphically see what atc is doing. Otherwise, during training, I found that
I was just blindly following vectors without really visualizing. After
doing the approaches for a while, you will start to anticipate atc. I now
fly practice approaches without the gps.

I like my old panel. 2 vor's, 1 ils, adf, vaccum and electric attitude, and
396 with weather. As long as you really understand how to use a vor, the
rest is just repetative procedures that will become second nature.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
><snip>
> Unfortunately, not with KX-170B's. :-(
>
><snip>

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 6:00 am, Thomas Borchert >
wrote:
> > How many folks use a kneeboard?
>
> I do. Zuluworks Zuluboard with binder rings, so that approach plates go
> in there, too. I take them out to the yoke clip when I know which one I
> need. I put STARs, Approaches and SIDs in one plastic pocket each. The
> Zulupad form is nicely tailored too IFR flying, too.

I haven't tried using a kneeboard yet, but the Zuluworks one you
describe sure sounds handy! I'll check out their website.
>
> > What kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where
> > do you put it?
>
> The ASA stopwatch. I know, it's expensive and kitchen timers do the
> trick. But I use the ASA timer for holds, approaches, fuel tank
> switching and getting "the time" both in Zulu and local. All that in one
> gimmick - that's worth the money to me. It goes on the velcro top of the
> ASA yoke clip I use. It does cover part of the panel, but one can easily
> work around it.

I've been leaning toward an analog stopwatch, just for the
simplicity. Maybe after I have my rating, I can graduate to a full
blown ASA with all the bells and whistles!
>
> > Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper?
>
> Kneeboard and the side pocket in our plane, right by the knee. That's
> where the laminated checklists go, too. I clip them to the yoke until
> take-off, because that's when there is much to read.

Good idea!
>
> > How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change?
>
> Full clearances, yes. Headings, altitudes, transponder codes and freqs,
> no, unless they are part of a clearance I'm writing down anyway (CRAFT
> is a nice acronym for that: Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, Freq,
> Transponder). But we have a transponder with buttons.

I'm not there yet, since my short term memory seems to be impaired
while wearing the IQ reducer (foggles). In the mean time, I have to
(or should) write everything down.
>
> > How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> The Zuluboards have these nice big pen holder pockets. Really neat, they
> work well in turbulence. For dropping protection, I have several pens in
> those pockets.

>
> One thing I haven't figured out yet is where to put the handheld backup
> GPS (we have a Garmin 430 in the plane). I would NEVER fly without at
> least a handheld GPS in IMC (if there is none in the panel - if there
> is, I still like the backup). The cost of that safety device has become
> trivial, with the Lowrance Airmap 500 or 600c. One can put it on the
> yoke, and I would if it were my primary GPS, to have it in the scan. But
> in my set-up, it then gets obscured by anything on the yoke clip.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I've been thinking about handheld GPS placement also (after the
checkride). I've been using the yoke so far (VFR flying), but I think
having the approach plates directly in your scan may be more
important. I've thought about using the industrial strength suction
cup attached to the side window Lowrance includes (for cars).


Thanks!

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 6:41 am, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> tscottme wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> >> Not me, at least not reliably. I hope that I get smarter and can
> >> devote more brain cell cycles to short term memory once I get better
> >> at flying the plane by reference to instruments! In the mean time
> >> it's safer for me to write everything down. These responses are
> >> giving me hope that this won't always be the case!
>
> > The more you fly the more you will come to anticipate what to expect. That
> > makes remembering things far easier than when you are a student. This
> > change is akin to learning a new language. As a native English speaker I
> > don't have to decode every utterance of someone and match it up with the one
> > right word in an English dictionary. Once you engage in conversation you
> > will take special note of the important words with meaning. If you were to
> > try to have the same conversation in another language you would have to
> > devote vast mental energy to every syllable and try to rapidly assemble the
> > collection of syllables into words as you scrambled to remember the English
> > meaning of those sounds. That would be a lot of hard work for anyone doing
> > the same thing. Most of the problem you are is having to rapidly recognize
> > and decode unusual items with almost no ability to anticipate what is coming
> > next.
>
> Exactly. The hardest part of instrument training for me thus far has
> been the clearances. But the last two times out, especially last night,
> I finally got it. I even sounded (to my ears) smooth. It is really
> difficult to fly the plane and listen while in the back of your mind
> you're thinking about all the stuff the clearance is telling you,
> altitude turn the plane, set the radios etc.
>
> As for organization, I have the analog clock in the Cherokee Challenger
> (my favorite part of the plane) and a digital kitchen timer that is
> stuck on a blanking plate on the radio stack, ie: out of the way.
>
> I use a kneeboard with enroute chart on top, then scratch paper and then
> then checklist underneath that. don't forget your checklist. I have my
> checkride this Friday.

Good Luck! Please let us know how it went down!

> The PTS mentions the "proper use of checklists"
> so I made up my own that incorporates the plane checklist with the IFR
> checklists I had. Now I have 1 nice one to refer to. I'll share it if
> you want. It has all the emergency stuff on there too.

Please do share it!
>
> I wear a baseball hat with a pen stuck into the band near my head. We
> also have a wad of velcro on the dash with an extra pen stuck on that.
> Plus the plane logbook has extra pens. That goes in between the back
> seats. I also keep my loose plates in the binder back there. It is all
> within easy reach.
>
> Plates go on a yoke clip. All the plates I may need including the plates
> for the departure airport. Plates are in order of use. I think that is
> all of it. Oh yeah, flashlights. Each side pocket has a flashlight and
> my flight bag (on the back seat if passengers) otherwise on the front
> seat has a flashlight. I try to keep as many things as I can triple
> redundant.
>
> Good luck with the training. It is very intense.
>
> KC

Thanks for all the tips KC! Don't forget to let us know about the
checkride!

[G. Sylvester]

Lots of good advice.

For timers, I use:
http://www.lcflight.com/timers.html
"4 Channel Alarm /Clock Timer"

#1 is the 'active' timer (expected times, times approaches, etc.), #3
and #4 are fuel tanks. #2 is the countdown for beverage and meal
service, ie I dont' use it. ;-) My CFII said it was too complicated
but I had used it when I worked in a laboratory and it is very simple to
use. A few weeks later after he told me this, I saw a picture of the
cockpit of SpaceShipOne and it had one mounted in it. :)

Gerald

[Thomas Borchert]

> I've been using the yoke so far (VFR flying), but I think
> having the approach plates directly in your scan may be more
> important.

Well, actually, my CFII insisted that after a proper approach briefing
you shouldn't really need to look at the plate much anymore. Certainly
not enough to warrant a need to have it in your scan. The minimum
altitudes should be memorized, as well as the first part of the missed.

>I've thought about using the industrial strength suction
> cup attached to the side window Lowrance includes (for cars).

Yep, the RAM mount suction cups will certainly work.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 10:18 am, "dlevy" > wrote:
> I fly with two of these.
> I write down every frequency change. It's not a big deal and on the return
> flight it's nice to have all the frequencies written down so you know what
> to expect.
>
> I don't fly ifr that much. I always consider those radios (vor's and an
> ndb) as primary navigation. It's a simple matter to to glance at the gps
> (396) to verify. If you are a student, I would suggest a 396 and spend a
> bit of time learning it. You can quickly load the approaches and
> graphically see what atc is doing. Otherwise, during training, I found that
> I was just blindly following vectors without really visualizing. After
> doing the approaches for a while, you will start to anticipate atc. I now
> fly practice approaches without the gps.

I have a Lowrance 2000C, but you can't load the approaches directly.
However the waypoints are depicted, and it's valuable to see where you
are (while being vectored) in relation to the FAF. I've only done
this so far while acting as a safety pilot, and found that ATC
continued to vector us inside the FAF on one occasion. OK for
practice, but not so good if we were in real IMC!

Visualization is sure tough (for me) without the GPS. The Garmin 396
(or 496) with weather is on my wish list!
>
> I like my old panel. 2 vor's, 1 ils, adf, vaccum and electric attitude, and
> 396 with weather. As long as you really understand how to use a vor, the
> rest is just repetative procedures that will become second nature.

I've read an interesting article about an alternative way to interpret
the VOR. Has anyone read Joe Campbell's IFR diary, or this article:
http://www.campbells.org/Airplanes/VOR/vor.html ? If so, what did you
think?
>
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> ><snip>
> > Unfortunately, not with KX-170B's. :-(
>
> ><snip>

[Mitty]

On 2/18/2007 11:32 PM, wrote the following:
> On Feb 18, 9:54 pm, Roy Smith > wrote:
>> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
>>> Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
>>> from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
>>> too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.
>> Flashlights come in two styles.
>>
>> Style 1 has a wrist lanyard attached to it. These get hung over a horn of
>> the yoke.
>>
>> Style 2 has no laynard. These get lost under the seat.
>
>
> How about flashlights attached to your head? Or your headset? I
> tried one of the LED "headlights", but it gave me a headache after
> awhile. It was sure was convenient though! Does anyone use the neck
> lights, seatbelt lights, ballcap lights, and even tongue switch lights
> they advertise in Sportys and Spruce?
>

I have actually worked this problem a bit. I found that it is very important
that the light source be above your eye level. If it is not, then your hand
casts a shadow across your pen point when you are writing on a kneeboard and you
can't see what you are writing. This problem will occur with the mic-lights and
any other light that is below your eyes.

I also found that having an adjustable light level was very important, as the
on/off type lights are waaay to bright.

My simplest solution was to put 3M "Dual Lock" tape on the headset shells and to
mount a couple of red lights like the Photon Micro-Light II. (You can also use
Velcro but it does not provide as positive a positioning.)

http://www.photonlight.com/LED-Keychain-Flashlights-s/1.htm

They used to have a model they called the "Covert" which had a little
sleeve/snout covering the LED so that all the light went forward. This is
important to eliminate reflections from the side windows, so a little home-made
engineering will now be required. They also sell a thing called a "short
lanyard clip" that helps keep the lights from going under the seat when you bump
them off the headset. If you align them properly they will illuminate most of
the panel and there is not a lot of head-turning required.

Then I went to a Clarity Aloft headset. Spectacular sound quality, etc. but
nowhere to mount the lights! For that I made my own set of "headlights" which
work well but took so much time (and a lathe and a milling machine) that only a
lunatic would do it. For this type of headset, an adjustable brightness red
headlight or ball cap light would be perfect but I have not yet seen one.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

dlevy wrote:
> You can quickly load the approaches and
> graphically see what atc is doing. Otherwise, during training, I found that
> I was just blindly following vectors without really visualizing. After
> doing the approaches for a while, you will start to anticipate atc. I now
> fly practice approaches without the gps.


It took me a while to figure out that those seemingly arbitrary vectors were
actually just corresponding to downwind, base and final legs... just a lot wider
pattern. Eureka!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:54:11 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

>"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
>> Don't forget the flashlight. I have yet to find a good way to keep it
>> from getting lost. It is too bulky to attach it to a string but it is
>> too small to keep from rolling off into a crevice.
>
>Flashlights come in two styles.
>
>Style 1 has a wrist lanyard attached to it. These get hung over a horn of
>the yoke.
>
>Style 2 has no laynard. These get lost under the seat.

I always thought a flashlight was a device in which one stored dead
batteries. I believe that applies to both of your styles!
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 11:03 am, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:
> dlevy wrote:
> > You can quickly load the approaches and
> > graphically see what atc is doing. Otherwise, during training, I found that
> > I was just blindly following vectors without really visualizing. After
> > doing the approaches for a while, you will start to anticipate atc. I now
> > fly practice approaches without the gps.
>
> It took me a while to figure out that those seemingly arbitrary vectors were
> actually just corresponding to downwind, base and final legs... just a lot wider
> pattern. Eureka!
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


Eureka is right! I have never thought of vectoring in those terms!
Thanks!

[gregscheetah]

On Feb 18, 10:59 pm, "Dan" > wrote:
> I like the tip about using OBS #2 to hold altitude assignments! As
> far as the flashlight goes, I have one that hangs around my neck on a
> lanyard. I don't bother timing my approaches. With 2 GPS units and
> associated situational awareness, timing is a waste of time.
>
> --Dan


I have a small suction cup based bug that I stick on my altimeter.
Works absolutely great for altitude assignments. Much better than the
OBS #2 idea. And really cheap.

I use the zulu works knee board. Works great for me, place for charts
and pens and writing. Those are the things you need.

Greg J.

[Doug[_1_]]

I skip all the fancy stuff. Lots of pens (so if I drop I have
another), the writing pad (I use the 4x6 ones), enroute chart and
terminal charts (bound govt--much sturdier), two pairs of reading
glasses. All I need. There is a flashlight or two, but I don't fly in
IMC at night. Put the heading into the heading bug, the altitude into
the altimeter bug and the freq into the radio. I find that to be a
godsend over trying to write everything down. I do write down initial
clearances, because they are usually long. I just file everywhere
direct (I have IFR GPS), and take what I get, unless I know how to get
something special out of ATC (then I file that). I don't need a timer,
but if I did, I'd just use my wris****ch. I store my pencil in my
shirt pocket. Nothing fancy.

If you do buy a bunch of fancy stuff, buy the cheap stuff. That way
when you throw it out, it won't hurt as much.

On Feb 18, 7:33 pm, wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.
>
> Steve
> PP ASEL
> Instrument student

[Roy Smith]

Thomas Borchert > wrote:
> Well, actually, my CFII insisted that after a proper approach briefing
> you shouldn't really need to look at the plate much anymore. Certainly
> not enough to warrant a need to have it in your scan. The minimum
> altitudes should be memorized, as well as the first part of the missed.

Depends. On a vectored ILS, there's only one altitude you need to remember
(the DA). Most of us can probably handle remembering one number.

But, not all approaches are that simple. I would never trust myself to
remember two or three stepdown fixes and the altitudes for each. Brief the
approach to make sure you understand what you need to do, but keep the
plate handy to find the exact number each time I cross a fix.

This is another place where the GPS really reduces workload. Many
non-precision approaches these days have vertical guidance. Just follow
the needle down like it's an ILS. Now you're back to remembering a single
number.

As far as memorizing the fist part of the missed, that's easy. I haven't
seen one yet that didn't being with "climb".

[Jose]

> As far as memorizing the fist part of the missed, that's easy. I haven't
> seen one yet that didn't being with "climb".

Approaches into a mountain usually have a missed that starts "climb and
turn". That second part is probably important too. :)

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> Approaches into a mountain usually have a missed that starts "climb and
> turn". That second part is probably important too. :)

Cf. KTEX.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ross]

Doug wrote:

snip
> If you do buy a bunch of fancy stuff, buy the cheap stuff. That way
> when you throw it out, it won't hurt as much.
>
> On Feb 18, 7:33 pm, wrote:
>
>>What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
>>kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
>>you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
>>scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
>>altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
>>(or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
>>use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>>
>>I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
>>Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
>>other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
>>idea to me.
>>
>>Steve
>>PP ASEL
>>Instrument student
>
>
>

Nobody had mentioned this. I do use a clipboard and put velcro around
the pen. I have the mating velcro on the edge of the clipboard. It is
always where I need it. I haven't dropped it yet, but I keep a back up
in the shirt pocket.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[John Clonts]

On Feb 19, 6:00 am, Thomas Borchert >
wrote:

> One thing I haven't figured out yet is where to put the handheld backup
> GPS (we have a Garmin 430 in the plane). I would NEVER fly without at
> least a handheld GPS in IMC (if there is none in the panel - if there
> is, I still like the backup). The cost of that safety device has become
> trivial, with the Lowrance Airmap 500 or 600c. One can put it on the
> yoke, and I would if it were my primary GPS, to have it in the scan. But
> in my set-up, it then gets obscured by anything on the yoke clip.
>

I have a Geko 201 I toss up on the glareshield. I used to use it
simply to record tracks, but now for IMC trips I will set it to
"navigate-to" my destination airport. No map; only track, desired
track, distance, and altitude. But I do train with it, so it would be
sufficient in the event of complete electrical failure....

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[dlevy]

Andrew Sarangan taught me how to use a vor. My instructor told me a million
times but reading Mr. Sarangan's article seemed very clear to me. Mr.
Campbell's is similar.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
><snip>
> I've read an interesting article about an alternative way to interpret
> the VOR. Has anyone read Joe Campbell's IFR diary, or this article:
> http://www.campbells.org/Airplanes/VOR/vor.html ? If so, what did you
> think?

[Tony]

I'd like to to consider another organizational skill for flying in
IMC, this is related to approaches etc.

Always -- make that ALWAYS -- brief yourself on the approach, but with
this important difference. You may have said to yourself "OK, final
approach fix at 3500, fly 210 degrees, descend to 2150, fly for 2
minutes 30 seconds, land. Don't do that!

Always self brief the miss. "Fly for 2 minutes 30 seconds, look for
the airport, full throttle, gear up, establish positive climb rate,
report the miss to approach, maintain 210 degrees, climb to 4000, left
turn,"

Always treat seeing the airport as a happy accident -- you know how to
land, don't sweat that.

In real life, especially if you're flying into uncontrolled airports,
you may be flying missed approaches one time in 20 or 1 time in a
hundred, and I want you to be ready for that exceptional time. It'll
be handy on your check ride, too, because you just know the examiner
is going to tell you to fly the miss at a time when you're focusing on
landing.

Treat this advice like the others you have gotten -- if it makes sense
to you, make it your own. But trust me on this. This mind set, that
seeing the runway at MDA is a happy accident, and you've already
planned to fly the miss, will save you a lot of workload at a critical
time. I can't imagine a downside, although some readers may find one.






On Feb 18, 9:33 pm, wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.
>
> Steve
> PP ASEL
> Instrument student

[Barry]

> Always self brief the miss. "Fly for 2 minutes 30 seconds, look for
> the airport, full throttle, gear up, establish positive climb rate,
> report the miss to approach, maintain 210 degrees, climb to 4000, left
> turn,"

Good advice to brief and be ready for the missed approach. However, for the
actual mechanics of the missed, I'd add as the first step "pitch up to climb
attitude" (generally about 10 degrees, or 2-3 bar widths). Many times on an
instrument proficiency check I've seen the pilot add full power without a
definite pitch up, and spend a lot longer than he should down near 200 feet.
Absolute priority on the missed is to get the climb established, and you do
this with both pitch and power.

Barry

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 6:10 pm, "Tony" > wrote:
> I'd like to to consider another organizational skill for flying in
> IMC, this is related to approaches etc.
>
> Always -- make that ALWAYS -- brief yourself on the approach, but with
> this important difference. You may have said to yourself "OK, final
> approach fix at 3500, fly 210 degrees, descend to 2150, fly for 2
> minutes 30 seconds, land. Don't do that!
>
> Always self brief the miss. "Fly for 2 minutes 30 seconds, look for
> the airport, full throttle, gear up, establish positive climb rate,
> report the miss to approach, maintain 210 degrees, climb to 4000, left
> turn,"
>
> Always treat seeing the airport as a happy accident -- you know how to
> land, don't sweat that.
>
> In real life, especially if you're flying into uncontrolled airports,
> you may be flying missed approaches one time in 20 or 1 time in a
> hundred, and I want you to be ready for that exceptional time. It'll
> be handy on your check ride, too, because you just know the examiner
> is going to tell you to fly the miss at a time when you're focusing on
> landing.
>
> Treat this advice like the others you have gotten -- if it makes sense
> to you, make it your own. But trust me on this. This mind set, that
> seeing the runway at MDA is a happy accident, and you've already
> planned to fly the miss, will save you a lot of workload at a critical
> time. I can't imagine a downside, although some readers may find one.
>
> On Feb 18, 9:33 pm, wrote:
>
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > idea to me.
>
> > Steve
> > PP ASEL
> > Instrument student

Sounds like great advice to me! I imagine as time goes on it will be
easy to become complacent. This sounds like a good way to guard
against that!

[Mitty]

On 2/18/2007 8:33 PM, wrote the following:
> How many folks use a kneeboard?

Me. And a yoke board.

What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it?

ASA Timer but it's very bulky. Attached to yoke board with 3M Dual Lock,
similar to Velcro.

Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper?

On the knee board, either Jepp punched on the binder rings or under the clip.
Plates are moved to the yoke board when I'm using them, so very little head
movement and easy to see. Otherwise the airplane specific checklist is visible
on the yoke board.

How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change?

Me. Or I try to. I use custom paper printed from an Excel spreadsheet that
gives me, among other things, three columns of blanks titled Altitude, Heading,
and Frequency. The bottom number written in each column is the current
assignment. I could email you the spreadsheet if you like.

How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)?

Sometimes not too effectively. I have spares. Waiting until three are on the
floor substantially increases my odds of finding _one_ by blind groping.

Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>

Both the yoke board and the knee board have velcro to hold pens.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 5:25 pm, "dlevy" > wrote:
> Andrew Sarangan taught me how to use a vor. My instructor told me a million
> times but reading Mr. Sarangan's article seemed very clear to me. Mr.
> Campbell's is similar.
>
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> ><snip>
> > I've read an interesting article about an alternative way to interpret
> > the VOR. Has anyone read Joe Campbell's IFR diary, or this article:
> >http://www.campbells.org/Airplanes/VOR/vor.html? If so, what did you
> > think?

I just found it at http://www.sarangan.org/aviation/articles/vor-article.pdf
.. Thanks!!

[Blanche]

Velcro.

The top of my glareshield is slowly evolving to complete velcro. I've
got one of those little photo lights on a velcro strap that is placed
very conveniently on the glareshield in front of me.

Removed the ashtray years ago and now have a battery-powered
'ash light' (no, this isn't an ad).

Frankly, flashlights are the least of my worries at night or IFR.

(small maglight in pocket next to me, big D cell maglight under the
seat, etc)

I tried the clipboard concept - not practical when there's really
not enough room in my lap (I need to sit close, short legs).

Timer, with velcro on the back, on the glareshield. But I really like
the clock in the aircraft with the second hand. Dealing with setting
and resetting the digital clock is a pain when trying to do multiple
things.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 19, 7:34 pm, Blanche > wrote:
> Velcro.
>
> The top of my glareshield is slowly evolving to complete velcro. I've
> got one of those little photo lights on a velcro strap that is placed
> very conveniently on the glareshield in front of me.
>
> Removed the ashtray years ago and now have a battery-powered
> 'ash light' (no, this isn't an ad).

You have to be careful when saying those words aloud.

>
> Frankly, flashlights are the least of my worries at night or IFR.
>
> (small maglight in pocket next to me, big D cell maglight under the
> seat, etc)
>
> I tried the clipboard concept - not practical when there's really
> not enough room in my lap (I need to sit close, short legs).
>
> Timer, with velcro on the back, on the glareshield. But I really like
> the clock in the aircraft with the second hand. Dealing with setting
> and resetting the digital clock is a pain when trying to do multiple
> things.


Velcro seems to be a common theme here! What a great invention!
Anyone remember those old David Letterman shows where he played
"Velcro Man" (am I remembering this right?). He donned a velcro suit,
jumped on a trampoline, and then stuck to a velcro wall. Anyway, I
thought it was funny.

Thanks Blanche!

[[email protected]]

On Feb 18, 8:33 pm, wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.
>
> Steve
> PP ASEL
> Instrument student


Thanks to everyone who offered up so many great ideas! This seems to
be a very individual thing, but it's great to have so many workable
ideas to choose from.

I've only been posting for less than a week, but I have found this
group to be invaluable! It's amazing to me that so many folks with
common interests are willing to provide thoughtful responses to a
perfect stranger (me)! I really appreciate it!

[Tony]

It's not just you, we post because we learn from each other as well.
You're a low time pilot seeing things with unbiased eyes so you may
see thigs others of us have overlooked. Post your comments about your
discoveries, you may help some of us learn from your experiences.


On Feb 20, 8:59 am, wrote:
> On Feb 18, 8:33 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > idea to me.
>
> > Steve
> > PP ASEL
> > Instrument student
>
> Thanks to everyone who offered up so many great ideas! This seems to
> be a very individual thing, but it's great to have so many workable
> ideas to choose from.
>
> I've only been posting for less than a week, but I have found this
> group to be invaluable! It's amazing to me that so many folks with
> common interests are willing to provide thoughtful responses to a
> perfect stranger (me)! I really appreciate it!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Tony wrote:
> It's not just you, we post because we learn from each other as well.
> You're a low time pilot seeing things with unbiased eyes so you may
> see thigs others of us have overlooked. Post your comments about your
> discoveries, you may help some of us learn from your experiences.


Absolutely. I've been flying since 1978 but most of it was alone. Many of the
things I do I dreamed up myself. This is an invaluable source of fresh ideas.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Roberto Waltman]

Roy Smith > wrote:
>...
>The kneeboard thing might make sense in a single-seat fighter, but I don't
>fly single-seat fighters.

[Slightly-off-topic] I tried using kneeboards in my (non-IFR)
training. I think they would be very good in an center stick
airplane, (with or without a right seat), they are a nuisance in the
garden variety yoke-equipped ones.

Roberto Waltman

[ Please reply to the group,
return address is invalid ]

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 20, 8:59 am, wrote:
> On Feb 18, 8:33 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > idea to me.
>
> > Steve
> > PP ASEL
> > Instrument student
>
> Thanks to everyone who offered up so many great ideas! This seems to
> be a very individual thing, but it's great to have so many workable
> ideas to choose from.
>
> I've only been posting for less than a week, but I have found this
> group to be invaluable! It's amazing to me that so many folks with
> common interests are willing to provide thoughtful responses to a
> perfect stranger (me)! I really appreciate it!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Glad you find it useful. Stick around as much as you can, and the
questions people ask here will keep you sharp. I can say for sure that
I have learned more from here than from any other source. Once in a
while there will be some ballyhoo over someone or something, and
people will threaten to leave. There will be a mass exodus, and then
fresh blood with flow in and everything will be better than before.
Several of us have been sticking around here for more than a decade,
and the reason we keep coming back is because it is like taking a
refresher course, for free.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 20, 10:08 am, "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> On Feb 20, 8:59 am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 18, 8:33 pm, wrote:
>
> > > What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> > > kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> > > you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> > > scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> > > altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> > > (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> > > use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> > > I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> > > Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> > > other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> > > idea to me.
>
> > > Steve
> > > PP ASEL
> > > Instrument student
>
> > Thanks to everyone who offered up so many great ideas! This seems to
> > be a very individual thing, but it's great to have so many workable
> > ideas to choose from.
>
> > I've only been posting for less than a week, but I have found this
> > group to be invaluable! It's amazing to me that so many folks with
> > common interests are willing to provide thoughtful responses to a
> > perfect stranger (me)! I really appreciate it!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Glad you find it useful. Stick around as much as you can, and the
> questions people ask here will keep you sharp. I can say for sure that
> I have learned more from here than from any other source. Once in a
> while there will be some ballyhoo over someone or something, and
> people will threaten to leave. There will be a mass exodus, and then
> fresh blood with flow in and everything will be better than before.
> Several of us have been sticking around here for more than a decade,
> and the reason we keep coming back is because it is like taking a
> refresher course, for free.

Andrew,

I just wanted to let you know how useful your article was on VOR
interpretation. It sure is a different (and easier) approach to the
subject! Now I'm exploring the other aviation areas of your excellent
website.

Thanks!

Steve Job

[Ross]

wrote:
> On Feb 20, 10:08 am, "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
>
>>On Feb 20, 8:59 am, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Feb 18, 8:33 pm, wrote:
>>
>>>>What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
>>>>kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
>>>>you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
>>>>scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
>>>>altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
>>>>(or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
>>>>use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>>
>>>>I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
>>>>Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
>>>>other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
>>>>idea to me.
>>
>>>>Steve
>>>>PP ASEL
>>>>Instrument student
>>
>>>Thanks to everyone who offered up so many great ideas! This seems to
>>>be a very individual thing, but it's great to have so many workable
>>>ideas to choose from.
>>
>>>I've only been posting for less than a week, but I have found this
>>>group to be invaluable! It's amazing to me that so many folks with
>>>common interests are willing to provide thoughtful responses to a
>>>perfect stranger (me)! I really appreciate it!- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>- Show quoted text -
>>
>>Glad you find it useful. Stick around as much as you can, and the
>>questions people ask here will keep you sharp. I can say for sure that
>>I have learned more from here than from any other source. Once in a
>>while there will be some ballyhoo over someone or something, and
>>people will threaten to leave. There will be a mass exodus, and then
>>fresh blood with flow in and everything will be better than before.
>>Several of us have been sticking around here for more than a decade,
>>and the reason we keep coming back is because it is like taking a
>>refresher course, for free.
>
>
> Andrew,
>
> I just wanted to let you know how useful your article was on VOR
> interpretation. It sure is a different (and easier) approach to the
> subject! Now I'm exploring the other aviation areas of your excellent
> website.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve Job
>

Another neat VOR simulator is http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/index.html.
It has been around a long time.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Michael Nouak]

"Andrew Sarangan" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
oups.com...
> snip
> I have learned more from here than from any other source. Once in a
> while there will be some ballyhoo over someone or something, and
> people will threaten to leave. There will be a mass exodus, and then

Yeah, this is especially true when the religious arguments start up. You
know, like:
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
Hi-wing or low-wing.
Slips with flaps.

;-)))

--
Michael Nouak
remove "nospamfor" to reply:

[Jose]

> like:
> Hi-wing or low-wing.
> Slips with flaps.

Did the flappers even wear slips?

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Tony]

On Feb 20, 1:57 pm, Jose > wrote:
> > like:
> > Hi-wing or low-wing.
> > Slips with flaps.
>
> Did the flappers even wear slips?
>
> Jose
> --
> Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
> follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
> understands this holds the world in his hands.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Wrong thread, Jose!

[Tony]

Get thee behind me, mentioning alternate wing positions in the same
sentence. There are two common posiitons -- Low, and other. Low wings
are for manly pilots, who don't mind getting wet when it rains or
having the PX sit in the puddle that might have accumulated on the
right seat, crawling under the thing to check fuel, and -- I could go
on and on listing the advantanges, but top this: name a single high
wing SEL that has its tail on the correct way, like my Mooney does.

So there.

I have to go now and practice turns around a tie down.


On Feb 20, 1:51 pm, "Michael Nouak" > wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" > schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:1171987713.455509.137740@t69g2000c wt.googlegroups.com...
>
> > snip
> > I have learned more from here than from any other source. Once in a
> > while there will be some ballyhoo over someone or something, and
> > people will threaten to leave. There will be a mass exodus, and then
>
> Yeah, this is especially true when the religious arguments start up. You
> know, like:
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Hi-wing or low-wing.
> Slips with flaps.
>
> ;-)))
>
> --
> Michael Nouak
> remove "nospamfor" to reply:
>

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Michael Nouak" > wrote
>
> Yeah, this is especially true when the religious arguments start up. You
> know, like:
> Hi-wing or low-wing.
> Slips with flaps.

Or the ever popular "downwind turn." <g>
--
Jim in NC

P.S. Do yourself a favor, and don't respond in any way to the Mxsmanic
character. If you do, you may find that people no longer respond to your
messages, as they will have put you in a blocked poster file.

[Al G[_1_]]

"Michael Nouak" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> oups.com...
>> snip
>> I have learned more from here than from any other source. Once in a
>> while there will be some ballyhoo over someone or something, and
>> people will threaten to leave. There will be a mass exodus, and then
>
> Yeah, this is especially true when the religious arguments start up. You
> know, like:
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Hi-wing or low-wing.
> Slips with flaps.
>
> ;-)))
>
> --
> Michael Nouak
> remove "nospamfor" to reply:
>
>

Boy, now you gone and done it. NOBODY hides under the wing of a Mooney
in a rainstorm.

Al G

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Al G wrote:
> Boy, now you gone and done it. NOBODY hides under the wing of a Mooney
> in a rainstorm.



No, but I've seen a pilot climb out of one in a rainstorm and getting down on
his knees in a mud puddle, kiss the ground. Happened at RDU back in 1989.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Al G[_1_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Al G wrote:
>> Boy, now you gone and done it. NOBODY hides under the wing of a Mooney
>> in a rainstorm.
>
>
>
> No, but I've seen a pilot climb out of one in a rainstorm and getting down
> on his knees in a mud puddle, kiss the ground. Happened at RDU back in
> 1989.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>
I've done a little "ground kissing" myself. I lost the engine due to
induction icing, at night solid IFR, over mountains. Yea, I know, I
shouldn't have been there. 27 miles later with my VERY best downwind glide
there I was just a kissin up a storm.

Al G

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Al G wrote:
> I've done a little "ground kissing" myself. I lost the engine due to
> induction icing, at night solid IFR, over mountains. Yea, I know, I
> shouldn't have been there. 27 miles later with my VERY best downwind glide
> there I was just a kissin up a storm.



It's a little known fact that one can extend a glide just on the vacuum power of
an excited sphincter.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Paul kgyy]

On Feb 18, 8:33 pm, wrote:
> What methods do you deploy? How many folks use a kneeboard? What
> kind of timer (analog or digital stopwatch) do you use, and where do
> you put it? Where do you keep the charts, approach plates, and
> scratch paper? How many people write down every clearance, heading,
> altitude and frequency change? How do you keep from dropping your pen
> (or pencil)? Is it on a string? Where do you put in when not in
> use? Velcro? Your pocket?
>
> I've read the books, but I just wonder how people cope in real life.
> Rod Machado talks about using a clipboard (with extra clips on the 3
> other sides) in his excellent training manual. This seems like a good
> idea to me.
>
> Steve
> PP ASEL
> Instrument student

ASA lapboard with map on left, flight log on right, pen clipped to
board. + yoke mount that contains approach chart, additional pen, and
digital timer. Backup charts in own pocket in flight bag in back
seat. Approach charts for departure, destination airport and
alternate taken out of book and placed in spiral binder from
Sporty's. Pens are fat ones that don't easily slip out of holder. I
use Jepp's flight planner which prints airport freqs, provides space
for clearances, ATIS, etc. And the Garmin 430 to show all courses in
advance.

I don't write down enroute altitude changes or freqs any more, just
the initial ones. Departure heading I just put into the DG bug.

[Journeyman]

On 2007-02-21, Blanche > wrote:
>
> May I offer a gender-based observation -- bra strap. I usually wear
> a polo/knit shirt to fly so that I can turn the collar up so that the
> shoulder harness doesn't annoy my neck. That means I can easily stash
> a couple pens in the bra strap. And yes, I've dropped pens but there's
> always a couple in the side pocket next to my knee as well as another
> one at the bra strap.

For pens, I daisy-chain a bunch of rubber bands, with one end going
through the hole in a spring clip, and the other end is attached to a
pen by a strip of duct tape. I clip the pen to the pad/lapboard and
never lose it. A second one in the side pocket in case the pen runs
dry unexpectedly makes adequate backup.

For the neck rub (not in a good way), I've seen people who do long
distance road trips install a fleece pad that you position on the
shoulder strap. I bet you could find something in an auto-supply
store.


Morris

[Ross]

Journeyman wrote:
> On 2007-02-21, Blanche > wrote:
>
snip
>
> For the neck rub (not in a good way), I've seen people who do long
> distance road trips install a fleece pad that you position on the
> shoulder strap. I bet you could find something in an auto-supply
> store.
>
>
> Morris

Years ago I installed the BAS shoulder harnesses in my Skyhawk. They
came with anti chafe attachments for this reason that were velcroed
around the nylon belts. I bet one could make something like that out of
fleece or other soft material.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Blanche]

Ross > wrote:
>Journeyman wrote:
>> For the neck rub (not in a good way), I've seen people who do long
>> distance road trips install a fleece pad that you position on the
>> shoulder strap. I bet you could find something in an auto-supply
>> store.
>
>Years ago I installed the BAS shoulder harnesses in my Skyhawk. They
>came with anti chafe attachments for this reason that were velcroed
>around the nylon belts. I bet one could make something like that out of
>fleece or other soft material.

Ross, Morris, et al.

When I was flying the warrior with the single shoulder harness (as in
a car), I had one of the fleece, slip-on-clamp-with-velcro from my
local discount store. Now in the cherokee, I have after-market
Y-shoulder harness. (OEM, TSO, STC, etc) I haven't found anything
that will work. Altho, now that you bring up the fleece gadget, I
bet I could get a couple pieces of fleece and sew them into a Y,
then add a velcro closure (so that it's not permanently attached
to the aircraft and require all sorts of paperwork and signatures
altho I could claim it was "owner-fabricated"...true?)

[JB]

On Feb 22, 12:44 am, Journeyman > wrote:
> On 2007-02-21, Blanche > wrote:
>
>
>
> > May I offer a gender-based observation -- bra strap. I usually wear
> > a polo/knit shirt to fly so that I can turn the collar up so that the
> > shoulder harness doesn't annoy my neck. That means I can easily stash
> > a couple pens in the bra strap. And yes, I've dropped pens but there's
> > always a couple in the side pocket next to my knee as well as another
> > one at the bra strap.
>
> For pens, I daisy-chain a bunch of rubber bands, with one end going
> through the hole in a spring clip, and the other end is attached to a
> pen by a strip of duct tape. I clip the pen to the pad/lapboard and
> never lose it. A second one in the side pocket in case the pen runs
> dry unexpectedly makes adequate backup.
>
> For the neck rub (not in a good way), I've seen people who do long
> distance road trips install a fleece pad that you position on the
> shoulder strap. I bet you could find something in an auto-supply
> store.
>
> Morris

WalMart sells them for $3. Great for summer flying when I'm wearing a
T shirt with no collar. The harness strap rubs like the dickens
without it.

--Jeff

[Ross]

Blanche wrote:
> Ross > wrote:
>
>>Journeyman wrote:
>>
>>>For the neck rub (not in a good way), I've seen people who do long
>>>distance road trips install a fleece pad that you position on the
>>>shoulder strap. I bet you could find something in an auto-supply
>>>store.
>>
>>Years ago I installed the BAS shoulder harnesses in my Skyhawk. They
>>came with anti chafe attachments for this reason that were velcroed
>>around the nylon belts. I bet one could make something like that out of
>>fleece or other soft material.
>
>
> Ross, Morris, et al.
>
> When I was flying the warrior with the single shoulder harness (as in
> a car), I had one of the fleece, slip-on-clamp-with-velcro from my
> local discount store. Now in the cherokee, I have after-market
> Y-shoulder harness. (OEM, TSO, STC, etc) I haven't found anything
> that will work. Altho, now that you bring up the fleece gadget, I
> bet I could get a couple pieces of fleece and sew them into a Y,
> then add a velcro closure (so that it's not permanently attached
> to the aircraft and require all sorts of paperwork and signatures
> altho I could claim it was "owner-fabricated"...true?)
>
>
>

My things are just around the two shoulder straps from the "Y". They do
not include the "Y". The are two flat pieces the roll up into a cylinder
and close with the velcro. They slide up and down and position where you
need them. I add velcro to duct tape and WD-40 as useful items.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Blanche]

Ross > wrote:
>Blanche wrote:
>> Ross > wrote:
>>>Journeyman wrote:
>>>>For the neck rub (not in a good way), I've seen people who do long
>>>>distance road trips install a fleece pad that you position on the
>>>>shoulder strap. I bet you could find something in an auto-supply
>>>>store.
>>>
>>>Years ago I installed the BAS shoulder harnesses in my Skyhawk. They
>>>came with anti chafe attachments for this reason that were velcroed
>>>around the nylon belts. I bet one could make something like that out of
>>>fleece or other soft material.
>>
>> Ross, Morris, et al.
>>
>> When I was flying the warrior with the single shoulder harness (as in
>> a car), I had one of the fleece, slip-on-clamp-with-velcro from my
>> local discount store. Now in the cherokee, I have after-market
>> Y-shoulder harness. (OEM, TSO, STC, etc) I haven't found anything
>> that will work. Altho, now that you bring up the fleece gadget, I
>> bet I could get a couple pieces of fleece and sew them into a Y,
>> then add a velcro closure (so that it's not permanently attached
>> to the aircraft and require all sorts of paperwork and signatures
>> altho I could claim it was "owner-fabricated"...true?)
>>
>My things are just around the two shoulder straps from the "Y". They do
>not include the "Y". The are two flat pieces the roll up into a cylinder
>and close with the velcro. They slide up and down and position where you
>need them. I add velcro to duct tape and WD-40 as useful items.

Yup, the flat fleece that roll around the webbing and close with
the velcro. I've always considered velcro the 20.5th Century's version
of duct tape. I keep a 20 foot roll of it in the hangar. Unfortunately,
the part of the shoulder harness that annoys me most is the center of
the Y. I'll take my current fleece gadget and see if I can adapt it
for the neck...