That "no-GUMP" Scratching Sound

[Marco Leon]

I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airline_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html

Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!

Marco

[Peter R.]

On 2/20/2007 4:10:33 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:

> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.

I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?

--
Peter

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 20, 4:10 pm, "Marco Leon" > wrote:
> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airli...
>
> Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!
>
> Marco

It brings back memories when I had to the same. Many years ago my
nose gear refused to lock down. What I vividly remember is the sound
of the prop hitting the ground. It was like a whip striking, nothing
like metal against rock. Since my rear wheels were ok, I did not hear
the same fuselage grinding sounds as in the video. Thanks for posting
the link.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Marco Leon" > said:
>I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
>odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
>http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airline_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html

So what's the story? It's pretty obvious from the alarms going off and
the way the camera goes to the side window just before touch down that
they knew the gear wasn't down, but why?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
I use shell scripts at ork. Some cow-orkers refuse to touch them, their
excuse is usually "I don't understand perl". Their fear of perl is such
that all things unknown are also perl. -- Andrew Dalgleish

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:38:00 -0500, "Peter R." >
wrote:

>On 2/20/2007 4:10:33 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:
>
>> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
>> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
>I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?

I'd have to go with failure. The gear horn was going off the whole
time, and the lack of reaction at touchdown lends me to lean towards
"they knew it was coming".

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Marco Leon wrote:
> Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!



I did. Cringe, that is....



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Dan Luke]

"Marco Leon" wrote:
>I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airline_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html
>
> Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!

Ick.

That's obscene.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Kyle Boatright]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airline_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html
>
> Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!
>
> Marco

I've heard that sound in person, at an airshow, no less.

SnF in 2002 a Mooney bellied in while we were watching arrivals. There was
a big x-wind that day and lots of pilots were having difficulty managing it.
My guess was that the pilot got all wrapped up in the Airshow arrival NOTAM
and in dealing with the x-wind and forgot his pre-landing checklist.

I was surprised at two things. First, it wasn't *that* loud. Second, the
airplane seemed to slide forever.

They came out with a crane, lifted the airplane, dropped the gear, and towed
the airplane to the campground. The pilot was a very good sport about it.
While the airplane was towed away, he rode on the wingwalk and waved at
everyone standing along the flightline.

I couldn't have done that...

KB

[Buck Murdock]

In article >,
Peter Clark > wrote:

> I'd have to go with failure. The gear horn was going off the whole
> time, and the lack of reaction at touchdown lends me to lean towards
> "they knew it was coming".

Don't be so sure. I've had both students and rental-checkouts continue
down final with the gear horn blaring, completely oblivious to it. It
boggles my mind, but I've seen it several times. It isn't until I ask,
"what does that horn mean?" that there's a dawning.

Scary.

[Peter Dohm]

> > I'd have to go with failure. The gear horn was going off the whole
> > time, and the lack of reaction at touchdown lends me to lean towards
> > "they knew it was coming".
>
> Don't be so sure. I've had both students and rental-checkouts continue
> down final with the gear horn blaring, completely oblivious to it. It
> boggles my mind, but I've seen it several times. It isn't until I ask,
> "what does that horn mean?" that there's a dawning.
>
> Scary.

I also presumed that it was a mechanical failure. However, the description
at the bottom of the page states that "...the pilot thought his gear was
down. ..." It also invites additional information, if known.

[Oz Lander[_2_]]

Marco Leon wrote:

> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airlin
> e_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html
>
> Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!
>
> Marco

They landed a fair way down the runway didn't they? Considering they
apparently were expecting a no gear landing, shouldn't they have
touched down as close to the threshhold as possible to give maximum
stopping distance/
Mind you it does look like a rather long runway anyway.

--
Oz Lander.
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong.

[Tony]

The breaking action you get with a gear up landing is pretty good,
don't need too much runway. If they were really cool they chose their
touchdown point so that it was a short walk to their car.



On Feb 21, 5:04 am, "Oz Lander" > wrote:
> Marco Leon wrote:
> > I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> > odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> >http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airlin
> > e_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html
>
> > Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!
>
> > Marco
>
> They landed a fair way down the runway didn't they? Considering they
> apparently were expecting a no gear landing, shouldn't they have
> touched down as close to the threshhold as possible to give maximum
> stopping distance/
> Mind you it does look like a rather long runway anyway.
>
> --
> Oz Lander.
> I'm not always right,
> But I'm never wrong.

[Tony]

Does anyone know if the aircraft would have likely suffered
significantly less damage had they chosen to land on the grass instead
of on the runway?


On Feb 20, 4:10 pm, "Marco Leon" > wrote:
> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airli...
>
> Enjoy, err, I mean cringe!
>
> Marco

[Kyle Boatright]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Does anyone know if the aircraft would have likely suffered
> significantly less damage had they chosen to land on the grass instead
> of on the runway?

The latest version of conventional wisdom is that you slide on concrete or
asphalt, but on grass you risk having an airframe part dig in and cause an
out of control situation (a flip over, perhaps).

The point that gets overlooked sometimes is that the first priority is to
walk away from the landing. If the airplane is relatively undamaged, that's
a bonus.

KB

[Thomas Borchert]

Tony,

> Does anyone know if the aircraft would have likely suffered
> significantly less damage had they chosen to land on the grass instead
> of on the runway?
>

Common (or maybe not so common) wisdom is to land on the runway if at
all possible. The grass has a high danger of the plane digging in.
Damage will be less on a hard surface.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 20, 5:38 pm, "Peter R." > wrote:
>
> I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?

My guess is that it was a pilot error. I think the poster was the
cameraman as well and the pilot's patting of the dash was another
clue.

Marco

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 20, 6:18 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> So what's the story? It's pretty obvious from the alarms going off and
> the way the camera goes to the side window just before touch down that
> they knew the gear wasn't down, but why?

I don't think it was a gear failure. As I responded to Peter's post,
the poster of the video seems to have been the cameraman as well. If
that's the case, the caption on the video page claims that it was
pilot error. The pilot pats the dash in a way I would if I screwed up
like that.

Then there's the short approach. If I had a known gear problem, I
would have probably been on a long final to ease the vertical load and
pick my spot carefully. I fly a fixed-gear so I'm not familiar with
proper technique.

Marco

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Marco Leon wrote:
> On Feb 20, 5:38 pm, "Peter R." > wrote:
>>
>> I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?
>
> My guess is that it was a pilot error. I think the poster was the
> cameraman as well and the pilot's patting of the dash was another
> clue.


If that was pilot error, he's certainly got a lot more restraint than I'm
blessed with. You'd have heard me cussing in the next county. Hey, when I'm
not happy, nobody's happy.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Peter R.]

On 2/20/2007 6:25:20 PM, Peter Clark wrote:

> I'd have to go with failure. The gear horn was going off the whole
> time, and the lack of reaction at touchdown lends me to lean towards
> "they knew it was coming".

I was wondering what that klaxon was. My Bonanza's gear warning horn sounds
like a stall warning horn and is continuous, not intermittent.

--
Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> The point that gets overlooked sometimes is that the first priority is to
> walk away from the landing. If the airplane is relatively undamaged, that's
> a bonus.

Good point. Since our recent fatality here in Iowa City, I've spoken
with many people about emergency procedures. The number one thing
they all say is that, at some point, you must GIVE UP ON THE PLANE.

Apparently it's a fairly common thing for pilots -- especially young,
very proficient ones -- to forget that the plane is secondary to
their survival. They keep trying to save the plane beyond the point
where it is too late to save themselves. (No, this is not what we
think happened here in Iowa City, but it's just one of the many
possibilities.)

>From what the "gray heads" have told me, stopping the engine, bumping
the prop till it's horizontal, and landing on the grass, gear-up, all
fall into this category. Doing stuff that might save the paint, at
the risk of catapulting you end-over-end, or doing anything that takes
your attention away from flying the plane (in what is, after all, a
VERY unusual situation) can cause (for example) an inadvertent
stall.

If you're in an emergency, your immediate thought has to be "this
plane is now the insurance company's plane" -- and fly it
accordingly. When you're talking about airplanes -- things that many
of us invest with almost human-like qualities -- this may be the
hardest part of any emergency landing.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
[Saving the plane instead of saving themselves]
>>From what the "gray heads" have told me, stopping the engine, bumping
>the prop till it's horizontal, and landing on the grass, gear-up, all
>fall into this category. Doing stuff that might save the paint, at
>the risk of catapulting you end-over-end, or doing anything that takes
>your attention away from flying the plane (in what is, after all, a
>VERY unusual situation) can cause (for example) an inadvertent
>stall.

Add to that list "flying low over the runway while some idiot in a car or
truck attempts to pull your landing gear out while risking having the prop
turn them into hamburger". It seems like there's one of those about once
a year, and every time the guy is treated like some sort of hero instead
of an idiot willing to risk several lives to save an insurance claim.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
If killing them all to a man is not an option then you are better off to
simply leave them to slowly self destruct under their own incompetance.
-- Dag

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> They keep trying to save the plane beyond the point
> where it is too late to save themselves.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050519X00634&key=1

Tried to do the ol' 180 back to the runway, even though there are several
open fields around the airport.

http://tinyurl.com/26km5h

According an acquaintence of the pilot, the airplane was uninsured.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Ross]

Jay Honeck wrote:
snip

> If you're in an emergency, your immediate thought has to be "this
> plane is now the insurance company's plane" -- and fly it
> accordingly. When you're talking about airplanes -- things that many
> of us invest with almost human-like qualities -- this may be the
> hardest part of any emergency landing.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

There was a article recently in one of the flying magazines that said
the same thing. You walk away and let the insurance company have the plane.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[buttman]

On Feb 20, 2:38 pm, "Peter R." > wrote:
> On 2/20/2007 4:10:33 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:
>
> > I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> > odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?
>
> --
> Peter

The first thing that jumped out at me was at the very beginning of the
video, you can hear one of the pilot talking about their "clubs". He
says something like "I went back there the day after to get back my
clubs and those things..."

To me it sounds like they were just shootin' the ****, weren't paying
attention to what they were doing, didn't do the checklist, and got
screwed. If it was a real emergency, they'd have been freaking out.
They would have told someone, and there would have been firetrucks
standing by.

[Jay Honeck]

> Tried to do the ol' 180 back to the runway, even though there are several
> open fields around the airport.

One really great thing about the Kiwi (see it here:
http://alexisparkinn.com/flight_simulator.htm ) is that we've been
able to practice true "engine-out" emergencies.

As it turns out, these are quite different from the "engine-idle"
emergencies we all practice in "real life", and have proven to me that
trying to return to the airport at anything less than 600 AGL is dicey
indeed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 2/20/2007 4:10:33 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:
>
>> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
>> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>
> I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?
>
Pilot mistake... if you read the forums attached to that page you'll
see that they were doing multiple landings with the gear down and
after the previous one the pilot retracted the gear (force of habit
he says) and forgot to put it back.

[Ron Natalie]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "Marco Leon" > said:
>> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
>> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
>>
>> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airline_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html
>
> So what's the story? It's pretty obvious from the alarms going off and
> the way the camera goes to the side window just before touch down that
> they knew the gear wasn't down, but why?
>
No, I think the reason he turns out the side window because as the plane
starts to flare there's no view other than sky out the front for the guy
in the back seat so he turns towards the side window.

[Peter R.]

On 2/22/2007 7:35:36 AM, Ron Natalie wrote:

> Pilot mistake... if you read the forums attached to that page you'll
> see that they were doing multiple landings with the gear down and
> after the previous one the pilot retracted the gear (force of habit
> he says) and forgot to put it back.

Ahh.. thanks for the added info. I didn't even see the forum attached there
during the first pass.

--
Peter

[Peter Dohm]

> >> I hope to never hear this first-hand. Of course I've increased the
> >> odds in my favor quite a bit by flying a fixed-gear aircraft.
> >
> > I cannot tell - Was this a pilot mistake or a gear failure?
> >
> Pilot mistake... if you read the forums attached to that page you'll
> see that they were doing multiple landings with the gear down and
> after the previous one the pilot retracted the gear (force of habit
> he says) and forgot to put it back.

BTW, the Ground Proximity Warning systems used on transport aircraft, even
25 years ago, were a little more informative to the pilot. Instead of just
a horn or siren, the audible annunciator said "undercarriage" from about
2500 feet agl until a much lower altitude--then it said "UNDERCARRIAGE!"

The warning horn is really just an interruption--in the hope that a pilot
will notice it and investigate.

My reason for mentioning this is that the technology to substitute an
audible annunciator has become extremely light, reliable, and cheap over the
past quarter century. A more informative type of alarm would be very
usefull for those of us who occassionally suffer from "sometimer's
desease"--which I suspect is most of us, if not all.

IMHO, it is time for the FAA to "step up to the plate" in a constructive
way, and provide a blanket approval for an inexpensive conversion based on a
337 form. They should also try to make every IA aware of the availability,
so that the IA can offer it at the next annual.

Just my $.02

Peter