equipment list?

[Tim]

What is required as far as a formal equipment list for part 91
operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one instructor I know, I
cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He states that an aircraft
must have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment list for the
plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for "equipment list" on
W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list showing all the
arms/moments and weights of all the items in the aircraft. I have seen
examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.

I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to what I would call a
useful document for the airplane. It is very brief, contains errors and
contains self-contradictory information. I am not surprised to seem to
be missing a required document.

Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate it or obtain a
new one? I was considering recreating from an account of the logs.

The manufacturer is no longer in business.

Any idea where I would find "equipment list" requirements in the regs?

thanks,
tim

[Jay Beckman]

"Tim" > wrote in message
...
>What is required as far as a formal equipment list for part 91 operations?
>In reading 91.205 and listening to one instructor I know, I cannot
>reconcile what he says >with the FARs. He states that an aircraft must
>have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment list for the plane I
>fly regularly. I see partial entries for "equipment >list" on W&B forms in
>the plane, but no formal equipment list showing all the arms/moments and
>weights of all the items in the aircraft. I have seen examples of this
> >for various aircraft in the POH.
>
>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to what I would call a
>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief, contains errors and
>contains self->contradictory information. I am not surprised to seem to be
>missing a required document.
>
>Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate it or obtain a new
>one? I was considering recreating from an account of the logs.
>
>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
>
>Any idea where I would find "equipment list" requirements in the regs?
>
>thanks,
>tim

Are you talking about trying create a "Minimum Equipment List" (MEL?) MELs
have to be FAA approved. Take a look at 91.213.

Our club aircraft have MELs and they list each item installed, how many are
installed and how many are required for dispatch. It also indicates whether
or not each item can be placarded "INOP" (or otherwise rendered un-usable)
by the pilot or if it needs the attention of a mechanic. These are things
that do not render the aircraft un-airworthy for a given condition (ie,
Rotating Beacon is not required for Day VFR, but it is for night flight (but
not if the strobes work...says our document.)

When you get down the list to the things required by 91.205, then you get a
solid column of "1 Installed - 1 Required" (or 2 in the case of Vaccuum
pumps...says our document.)

As for W/B, couldn't a shop help? Re-weigh and re-calculate arms?
(Claiming brute ignorance here...sorry.)

HTH,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Mark Hansen]

On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
> What is required as far as a formal equipment list for part 91
> operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one instructor I know, I
> cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He states that an aircraft
> must have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment list for the
> plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for "equipment list" on
> W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list showing all the
> arms/moments and weights of all the items in the aircraft. I have seen
> examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
>
> I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to what I would call a
> useful document for the airplane. It is very brief, contains errors and
> contains self-contradictory information. I am not surprised to seem to
> be missing a required document.
>
> Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate it or obtain a
> new one? I was considering recreating from an account of the logs.
>
> The manufacturer is no longer in business.
>
> Any idea where I would find "equipment list" requirements in the regs?
>
> thanks,
> tim

There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on this topic. AVWeb
members can see the article here:

<http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>

If you're not a member already, join! It's free and there's lots of great
stuff there.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Tim]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
>
>>What is required as far as a formal equipment list for part 91
>>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one instructor I know, I
>>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He states that an aircraft
>>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment list for the
>>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for "equipment list" on
>>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list showing all the
>>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the aircraft. I have seen
>>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
>>
>>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to what I would call a
>>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief, contains errors and
>>contains self-contradictory information. I am not surprised to seem to
>>be missing a required document.
>>
>>Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate it or obtain a
>>new one? I was considering recreating from an account of the logs.
>>
>>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
>>
>>Any idea where I would find "equipment list" requirements in the regs?
>>
>>thanks,
>>tim
>
>
> There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on this topic. AVWeb
> members can see the article here:
>
> <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
>
> If you're not a member already, join! It's free and there's lots of great
> stuff there.
>
>
After posting this I found the article. Thanks.

[Tim]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> "Tim" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>What is required as far as a formal equipment list for part 91 operations?
>>In reading 91.205 and listening to one instructor I know, I cannot
>>reconcile what he says >with the FARs. He states that an aircraft must
>>have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment list for the plane I
>>fly regularly. I see partial entries for "equipment >list" on W&B forms in
>>the plane, but no formal equipment list showing all the arms/moments and
>>weights of all the items in the aircraft. I have seen examples of this
>>
>>>for various aircraft in the POH.
>>
>>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to what I would call a
>>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief, contains errors and
>>contains self->contradictory information. I am not surprised to seem to be
>>missing a required document.
>>
>>Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate it or obtain a new
>>one? I was considering recreating from an account of the logs.
>>
>>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
>>
>>Any idea where I would find "equipment list" requirements in the regs?
>>
>>thanks,
>>tim
>
>
> Are you talking about trying create a "Minimum Equipment List" (MEL?) MELs
> have to be FAA approved. Take a look at 91.213.
>
> Our club aircraft have MELs and they list each item installed, how many are
> installed and how many are required for dispatch. It also indicates whether
> or not each item can be placarded "INOP" (or otherwise rendered un-usable)
> by the pilot or if it needs the attention of a mechanic. These are things
> that do not render the aircraft un-airworthy for a given condition (ie,
> Rotating Beacon is not required for Day VFR, but it is for night flight (but
> not if the strobes work...says our document.)
>
> When you get down the list to the things required by 91.205, then you get a
> solid column of "1 Installed - 1 Required" (or 2 in the case of Vaccuum
> pumps...says our document.)
>
> As for W/B, couldn't a shop help? Re-weigh and re-calculate arms?
> (Claiming brute ignorance here...sorry.)
>
> HTH,
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> Chandler, AZ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
No - I was not asking about the MEL. Rather just an "equipment list."
The article referred to by another poster is what i was looking for but
I have not found any other guidelines about what the format should be, etc.

[Travis Marlatte]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
> There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on this topic. AVWeb
> members can see the article here:
>
> <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
>

Steve Ellis also addressed this in AOPA Pilot in 2001.

There is nothing that I see that says that an up to date equipment list is
required. Mike Busch quotes an FAA publication that advises that the W&B
"must" be updated and then adds in the same sentence, "then the equipment
list is updated." There is no regulation that requires an equipment list.

However, if you're going to do it, Mike's spreadsheet is a pretty nice way
to go about doing it. He even includes a sign off at the bottom.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Jim Macklin]

An equipment list is required and lists all components and
accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
itself. A really well done equipment list will include the
model and serial number for items and not just the name,
weight and station [location on the airplane]. This makes
researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be listed.

But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate AFM
and the factory original W&B data should have had the
equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in the
registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
time to do a real annual] and verify that each item is
really installed, update to include serial numbers and
current AD status and add any items that have been added and
delete items that are no longer installed.



"Tim" > wrote in message
...
| Mark Hansen wrote:
| > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| >
| >>What is required as far as a formal equipment list for
part 91
| >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
instructor I know, I
| >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He states
that an aircraft
| >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment
list for the
| >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
"equipment list" on
| >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
showing all the
| >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
aircraft. I have seen
| >>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
| >>
| >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
what I would call a
| >>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
contains errors and
| >>contains self-contradictory information. I am not
surprised to seem to
| >>be missing a required document.
| >>
| >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate
it or obtain a
| >>new one? I was considering recreating from an account
of the logs.
| >>
| >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| >>
| >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
requirements in the regs?
| >>
| >>thanks,
| >>tim
| >
| >
| > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
this topic. AVWeb
| > members can see the article here:
| >
| > <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
| >
| > If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
there's lots of great
| > stuff there.
| >
| >
| After posting this I found the article. Thanks.

[Tim]

See inline replies.

Jim Macklin wrote:
> An equipment list is required and lists all components and
> accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
> itself.

Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is there a
specified format?

A really well done equipment list will include the
> model and serial number for items and not just the name,
> weight and station [location on the airplane]. This makes
> researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
> The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
> radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be listed.
>
> But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
> owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate AFM
> and the factory original W&B data should have had the
> equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in the
> registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
> time to do a real annual]

As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you mean by this.

and verify that each item is
> really installed, update to include serial numbers and
> current AD status and add any items that have been added and
> delete items that are no longer installed.

I am most likely going to base mine on the log book entries and an
equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.

thanks, tim


>
>
>
> "Tim" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Mark Hansen wrote:
> | > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
> | >
> | >>What is required as far as a formal equipment list for
> part 91
> | >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
> instructor I know, I
> | >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He states
> that an aircraft
> | >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an equipment
> list for the
> | >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
> "equipment list" on
> | >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
> showing all the
> | >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
> aircraft. I have seen
> | >>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
> | >>
> | >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
> what I would call a
> | >>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
> contains errors and
> | >>contains self-contradictory information. I am not
> surprised to seem to
> | >>be missing a required document.
> | >>
> | >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I recreate
> it or obtain a
> | >>new one? I was considering recreating from an account
> of the logs.
> | >>
> | >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
> | >>
> | >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
> requirements in the regs?
> | >>
> | >>thanks,
> | >>tim
> | >
> | >
> | > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
> this topic. AVWeb
> | > members can see the article here:
> | >
> | > <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
> | >
> | > If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
> there's lots of great
> | > stuff there.
> | >
> | >
> | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
>
>

[Travis Marlatte]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> An equipment list is required and lists all components and
> accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
> itself. A really well done equipment list will include the

As a general statement, I don't think so. A great idea? I agree. Required by
a reg? Where?

An equipment list may be required for the certification but I don't see any
reg that says that you have to keep it up to date. All that is required is
updated W&B. The FAA publication that Mike Busch quotes is somewhat
ambiguous but it is only advisory, anyway.

Having said all that, I did download Mike's spreadsheet and I plan to create
an equipment list - just for fun. However, I'm quite sure that I won't be
able to match the current W&B which will leave a perpetual puzzle until I
pay to have the plane re-weighed.
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Jim Macklin]

Look in part 23 and 91.
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

(b) Appropriate loading instructions for each possible
loading condition between the maximum and minimum weights
established under §23.25, to facilitate the center of
gravity remaining within the limits established under
§23.23.

[Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, as amended by
Amdt. 23-45, 58 FR 42167, Aug. 6, 1993; Amdt. 23-50, 61 FR
5195, Feb. 9, 1996]


§ 91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411
and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the
following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b)
of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and
alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive,
and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate,
for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine,
propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records
must include-

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator) of the work performed; and

(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person
approving the aircraft for return to service.

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine,
each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each
airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on
the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a
specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft,
including the time since the last inspection required by the
inspection program under which the aircraft and its
appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness
directives (AD) including, for each, the method of
compliance, the AD number, and revision date. If the AD
involves recurring action, the time and date when the next
action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by §43.9(a) of this
chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and
currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and
appliances.

(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records
for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this
section shall be retained until the work is repeated or
superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is
performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this
section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft
at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or
operator under §43.11 of this chapter shall be retained
until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved
for return to service.

(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records
required to be kept by this section available for inspection
by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition,
the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in
paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of
any law enforcement officer.

(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger
compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of
this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board
the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under
control number 2120-0005)

§ 43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance,
preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records
(except inspections performed in accordance with part 91,
part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in
paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who
maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or
alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the
maintenance record of that equipment containing the
following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than
the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe,
aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has
been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate
number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving
the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return
to service only for the work performed.

(b) Each holder of an air carrier operating certificate or
an operating certificate issued under Part 121 or 135, that
is required by its approved operations specifications to
provide for a continuous airworthiness maintenance program,
shall make a record of the maintenance, preventive
maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration, on aircraft,
airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, or
component parts which it operates in accordance with the
applicable provisions of Part 121 or 135 of this chapter, as
appropriate.

(c) This section does not apply to persons performing
inspections in accordance with Part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1),
or §135.419 of this chapter.

(d) In addition to the entry required by paragraph (a) of
this section, major repairs and major alterations shall be
entered on a form, and the form disposed of, in the manner
prescribed in appendix B, by the person performing the work.

[Amdt. 43-23, 47 FR 41085, Sept. 16, 1982, as amended by
Amdt. 43-37, 66 FR 21066, Apr


"Tim" > wrote in message
...
| See inline replies.
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| > accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| > itself.
|
| Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
there a
| specified format?
|
| A really well done equipment list will include the
| > model and serial number for items and not just the name,
| > weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
makes
| > researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| > The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
| > radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
listed.
| >
| > But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
| > owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
AFM
| > and the factory original W&B data should have had the
| > equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
the
| > registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
| > time to do a real annual]
|
| As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
mean by this.
|
| and verify that each item is
| > really installed, update to include serial numbers and
| > current AD status and add any items that have been added
and
| > delete items that are no longer installed.
|
| I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
entries and an
| equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
|
| thanks, tim
|
|
| >
| >
| >
| > "Tim" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | Mark Hansen wrote:
| > | > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| > | >
| > | >>What is required as far as a formal equipment list
for
| > part 91
| > | >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
| > instructor I know, I
| > | >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
states
| > that an aircraft
| > | >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
equipment
| > list for the
| > | >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
| > "equipment list" on
| > | >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
| > showing all the
| > | >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| > aircraft. I have seen
| > | >>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
| > | >>
| > | >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
| > what I would call a
| > | >>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
| > contains errors and
| > | >>contains self-contradictory information. I am not
| > surprised to seem to
| > | >>be missing a required document.
| > | >>
| > | >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I
recreate
| > it or obtain a
| > | >>new one? I was considering recreating from an
account
| > of the logs.
| > | >>
| > | >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| > | >>
| > | >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| > requirements in the regs?
| > | >>
| > | >>thanks,
| > | >>tim
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
| > this topic. AVWeb
| > | > members can see the article here:
| > | >
| > | >
<http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
| > | >
| > | > If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
| > there's lots of great
| > | > stuff there.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
| >
| >

[Jim Macklin]

A real annual is when the AI actual looks at all the details
and the owner wants it done right, not just cheap.



"Tim" > wrote in message
...
| See inline replies.
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| > accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| > itself.
|
| Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
there a
| specified format?
|
| A really well done equipment list will include the
| > model and serial number for items and not just the name,
| > weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
makes
| > researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| > The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
| > radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
listed.
| >
| > But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
| > owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
AFM
| > and the factory original W&B data should have had the
| > equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
the
| > registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
| > time to do a real annual]
|
| As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
mean by this.
|
| and verify that each item is
| > really installed, update to include serial numbers and
| > current AD status and add any items that have been added
and
| > delete items that are no longer installed.
|
| I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
entries and an
| equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
|
| thanks, tim
|
|
| >
| >
| >
| > "Tim" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | Mark Hansen wrote:
| > | > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| > | >
| > | >>What is required as far as a formal equipment list
for
| > part 91
| > | >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
| > instructor I know, I
| > | >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
states
| > that an aircraft
| > | >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
equipment
| > list for the
| > | >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
| > "equipment list" on
| > | >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
| > showing all the
| > | >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| > aircraft. I have seen
| > | >>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
| > | >>
| > | >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
| > what I would call a
| > | >>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
| > contains errors and
| > | >>contains self-contradictory information. I am not
| > surprised to seem to
| > | >>be missing a required document.
| > | >>
| > | >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I
recreate
| > it or obtain a
| > | >>new one? I was considering recreating from an
account
| > of the logs.
| > | >>
| > | >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| > | >>
| > | >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| > requirements in the regs?
| > | >>
| > | >>thanks,
| > | >>tim
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
| > this topic. AVWeb
| > | > members can see the article here:
| > | >
| > | >
<http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
| > | >
| > | > If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
| > there's lots of great
| > | > stuff there.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
| >
| >

[Jim Macklin]

FAR 125 requires actual weighing the aircraft on a schedule.
New aircraft are assumed to be accurate, but not all
airplanes are weighed.


"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| ...
| > An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| > accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| > itself. A really well done equipment list will include
the
|
| As a general statement, I don't think so. A great idea? I
agree. Required by
| a reg? Where?
|
| An equipment list may be required for the certification
but I don't see any
| reg that says that you have to keep it up to date. All
that is required is
| updated W&B. The FAA publication that Mike Busch quotes is
somewhat
| ambiguous but it is only advisory, anyway.
|
| Having said all that, I did download Mike's spreadsheet
and I plan to create
| an equipment list - just for fun. However, I'm quite sure
that I won't be
| able to match the current W&B which will leave a perpetual
puzzle until I
| pay to have the plane re-weighed.
| -------------------------------
| Travis
| Lake N3094P
| PWK
|
|

[Tim]

All my annuals are real annuals. I might almost be insulted by this
comment.



Jim Macklin wrote:
> A real annual is when the AI actual looks at all the details
> and the owner wants it done right, not just cheap.
>
>
>
> "Tim" > wrote in message
> ...
> | See inline replies.
> |
> | Jim Macklin wrote:
> | > An equipment list is required and lists all components
> and
> | > accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
> | > itself.
> |
> | Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
> there a
> | specified format?
> |
> | A really well done equipment list will include the
> | > model and serial number for items and not just the name,
> | > weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
> makes
> | > researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
> | > The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
> | > radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
> listed.
> | >
> | > But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
> | > owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
> AFM
> | > and the factory original W&B data should have had the
> | > equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
> the
> | > registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
> | > time to do a real annual]
> |
> | As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
> mean by this.
> |
> | and verify that each item is
> | > really installed, update to include serial numbers and
> | > current AD status and add any items that have been added
> and
> | > delete items that are no longer installed.
> |
> | I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
> entries and an
> | equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
> |
> | thanks, tim
> |
> |
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | > "Tim" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > | Mark Hansen wrote:
> | > | > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
> | > | >
> | > | >>What is required as far as a formal equipment list
> for
> | > part 91
> | > | >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
> | > instructor I know, I
> | > | >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
> states
> | > that an aircraft
> | > | >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
> equipment
> | > list for the
> | > | >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
> | > "equipment list" on
> | > | >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
> | > showing all the
> | > | >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
> | > aircraft. I have seen
> | > | >>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
> | > what I would call a
> | > | >>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
> | > contains errors and
> | > | >>contains self-contradictory information. I am not
> | > surprised to seem to
> | > | >>be missing a required document.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I
> recreate
> | > it or obtain a
> | > | >>new one? I was considering recreating from an
> account
> | > of the logs.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
> | > requirements in the regs?
> | > | >>
> | > | >>thanks,
> | > | >>tim
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
> | > this topic. AVWeb
> | > | > members can see the article here:
> | > | >
> | > | >
> <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
> | > | >
> | > | > If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
> | > there's lots of great
> | > | > stuff there.
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
> | >
> | >
>
>

[Tim]

Thanks - I should know better than to use a reference that is
abbreviated. All the part 91 stuff is no problem - it is the part 23 I
need to double check.

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Look in part 23 and 91.
> § 23.1589 Loading information.
> The following loading information must be furnished:
>
> (a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
> can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
> installed when the airplane was weighed under the
> requirement of §23.25.
>
> (b) Appropriate loading instructions for each possible
> loading condition between the maximum and minimum weights
> established under §23.25, to facilitate the center of
> gravity remaining within the limits established under
> §23.23.
>
> [Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, as amended by
> Amdt. 23-45, 58 FR 42167, Aug. 6, 1993; Amdt. 23-50, 61 FR
> 5195, Feb. 9, 1996]
>
>
> § 91.417 Maintenance records.
> (a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411
> and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the
> following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b)
> of this section:
>
> (1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and
> alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive,
> and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate,
> for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine,
> propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records
> must include-
>
> (i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
> Administrator) of the work performed; and
>
> (ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and
>
> (iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person
> approving the aircraft for return to service.
>
> (2) Records containing the following information:
>
> (i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine,
> each propeller, and each rotor.
>
> (ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each
> airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
>
> (iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on
> the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a
> specified time basis.
>
> (iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft,
> including the time since the last inspection required by the
> inspection program under which the aircraft and its
> appliances are maintained.
>
> (v) The current status of applicable airworthiness
> directives (AD) including, for each, the method of
> compliance, the AD number, and revision date. If the AD
> involves recurring action, the time and date when the next
> action is required.
>
> (vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by §43.9(a) of this
> chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and
> currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and
> appliances.
>
> (b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records
> for the periods prescribed:
>
> (1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this
> section shall be retained until the work is repeated or
> superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is
> performed.
>
> (2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this
> section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft
> at the time the aircraft is sold.
>
> (3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or
> operator under §43.11 of this chapter shall be retained
> until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved
> for return to service.
>
> (c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records
> required to be kept by this section available for inspection
> by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the
> National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition,
> the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in
> paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of
> any law enforcement officer.
>
> (d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger
> compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of
> this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board
> the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.
>
> (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under
> control number 2120-0005)
>
> § 43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance,
> preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records
> (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91,
> part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
> (a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in
> paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who
> maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or
> alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
> appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the
> maintenance record of that equipment containing the
> following information:
>
> (1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
> Administrator) of work performed.
>
> (2) The date of completion of the work performed.
>
> (3) The name of the person performing the work if other than
> the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
>
> (4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe,
> aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has
> been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate
> number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving
> the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return
> to service only for the work performed.
>
> (b) Each holder of an air carrier operating certificate or
> an operating certificate issued under Part 121 or 135, that
> is required by its approved operations specifications to
> provide for a continuous airworthiness maintenance program,
> shall make a record of the maintenance, preventive
> maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration, on aircraft,
> airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, or
> component parts which it operates in accordance with the
> applicable provisions of Part 121 or 135 of this chapter, as
> appropriate.
>
> (c) This section does not apply to persons performing
> inspections in accordance with Part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1),
> or §135.419 of this chapter.
>
> (d) In addition to the entry required by paragraph (a) of
> this section, major repairs and major alterations shall be
> entered on a form, and the form disposed of, in the manner
> prescribed in appendix B, by the person performing the work.
>
> [Amdt. 43-23, 47 FR 41085, Sept. 16, 1982, as amended by
> Amdt. 43-37, 66 FR 21066, Apr
>
>
> "Tim" > wrote in message
> ...
> | See inline replies.
> |
> | Jim Macklin wrote:
> | > An equipment list is required and lists all components
> and
> | > accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
> | > itself.
> |
> | Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
> there a
> | specified format?
> |
> | A really well done equipment list will include the
> | > model and serial number for items and not just the name,
> | > weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
> makes
> | > researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
> | > The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
> | > radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
> listed.
> | >
> | > But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
> | > owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
> AFM
> | > and the factory original W&B data should have had the
> | > equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
> the
> | > registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
> | > time to do a real annual]
> |
> | As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
> mean by this.
> |
> | and verify that each item is
> | > really installed, update to include serial numbers and
> | > current AD status and add any items that have been added
> and
> | > delete items that are no longer installed.
> |
> | I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
> entries and an
> | equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
> |
> | thanks, tim
> |
> |
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | > "Tim" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > | Mark Hansen wrote:
> | > | > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
> | > | >
> | > | >>What is required as far as a formal equipment list
> for
> | > part 91
> | > | >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
> | > instructor I know, I
> | > | >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
> states
> | > that an aircraft
> | > | >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
> equipment
> | > list for the
> | > | >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
> | > "equipment list" on
> | > | >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
> | > showing all the
> | > | >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
> | > aircraft. I have seen
> | > | >>examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
> | > what I would call a
> | > | >>useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
> | > contains errors and
> | > | >>contains self-contradictory information. I am not
> | > surprised to seem to
> | > | >>be missing a required document.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I
> recreate
> | > it or obtain a
> | > | >>new one? I was considering recreating from an
> account
> | > of the logs.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
> | > | >>
> | > | >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
> | > requirements in the regs?
> | > | >>
> | > | >>thanks,
> | > | >>tim
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
> | > this topic. AVWeb
> | > | > members can see the article here:
> | > | >
> | > | >
> <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
> | > | >
> | > | > If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
> | > there's lots of great
> | > | > stuff there.
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
> | >
> | >
>
>

[Travis Marlatte]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Look in part 23 and 91.
> § 23.1589 Loading information.
> The following loading information must be furnished:
>


So we are all agreed that an up to date equipment list is not a regulatory
requirement, right?
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Tim" > wrote

> All my annuals are real annuals. I might almost be insulted by this
> comment.

You might be rightfully insulted, but the sad fact remains that many annuals
are "pencil whipped" annuals.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

There are many annuals done each year that are pencil
whipped. You get what you want and pay for, more power to
you for doing it right.



"Tim" > wrote in message
...
| All my annuals are real annuals. I might almost be
insulted by this
| comment.
|
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > A real annual is when the AI actual looks at all the
details
| > and the owner wants it done right, not just cheap.
| >
| >
| >
| > "Tim" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | See inline replies.
| > |
| > | Jim Macklin wrote:
| > | > An equipment list is required and lists all
components
| > and
| > | > accessories and parts installed, except for the
airframe
| > | > itself.
| > |
| > | Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet.
Is
| > there a
| > | specified format?
| > |
| > | A really well done equipment list will include the
| > | > model and serial number for items and not just the
name,
| > | > weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
| > makes
| > | > researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| > | > The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos,
battery,
| > | > radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
| > listed.
| > | >
| > | > But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and
the
| > | > owners' handbook would also sometime include a
separate
| > AFM
| > | > and the factory original W&B data should have had
the
| > | > equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of
that in
| > the
| > | > registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane
[good
| > | > time to do a real annual]
| > |
| > | As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what
you
| > mean by this.
| > |
| > | and verify that each item is
| > | > really installed, update to include serial numbers
and
| > | > current AD status and add any items that have been
added
| > and
| > | > delete items that are no longer installed.
| > |
| > | I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
| > entries and an
| > | equipment list from a plane of the same year and
model.
| > |
| > | thanks, tim
| > |
| > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > "Tim" > wrote in message
| > | > ...
| > | > | Mark Hansen wrote:
| > | > | > On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| > | > | >
| > | > | >>What is required as far as a formal equipment
list
| > for
| > | > part 91
| > | > | >>operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to
one
| > | > instructor I know, I
| > | > | >>cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
| > states
| > | > that an aircraft
| > | > | >>must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
| > equipment
| > | > list for the
| > | > | >>plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries
for
| > | > "equipment list" on
| > | > | >>W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment
list
| > | > showing all the
| > | > | >>arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| > | > aircraft. I have seen
| > | > | >>examples of this for various aircraft in the
POH.
| > | > | >>
| > | > | >>I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even
close to
| > | > what I would call a
| > | > | >>useful document for the airplane. It is very
brief,
| > | > contains errors and
| > | > | >>contains self-contradictory information. I am
not
| > | > surprised to seem to
| > | > | >>be missing a required document.
| > | > | >>
| > | > | >>Is this a required document? If so, how can I
| > recreate
| > | > it or obtain a
| > | > | >>new one? I was considering recreating from an
| > account
| > | > of the logs.
| > | > | >>
| > | > | >>The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| > | > | >>
| > | > | >>Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| > | > requirements in the regs?
| > | > | >>
| > | > | >>thanks,
| > | > | >>tim
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > There was a recent article by Mike Busch at
AVWeb on
| > | > this topic. AVWeb
| > | > | > members can see the article here:
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > <http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html>
| > | > | >
| > | > | > If you're not a member already, join! It's free
and
| > | > there's lots of great
| > | > | > stuff there.
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
| > | >
| > | >
| >
| >

[Jim Macklin]

No, it is required by part 43 et al.



"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in
message
t...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| ...
| > Look in part 23 and 91.
| > § 23.1589 Loading information.
| > The following loading information must be furnished:
| >
|
|
| So we are all agreed that an up to date equipment list is
not a regulatory
| requirement, right?
| -------------------------------
| Travis
| Lake N3094P
| PWK
|
|

[Travis Marlatte]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> No, it is required by part 43 et al.


This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Tim]

Travis Marlatte wrote:
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No, it is required by part 43 et al.
>
>
>
> This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
> information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
> anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
> book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
> me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
> an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.
>
> I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
> missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
> necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
> A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
> limited exposure to such things).
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK
>
>
It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 8:58 am, Tim > wrote:
>
> It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
> it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
> airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
> then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.
>
> I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
> something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
> that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
> online)

One of thing that confuses this issue is that Part 23 requirements
do not apply to aircraft certified under the old CAR3 regulations.
As I recall, CAR3 did not require a current equipment list, although
some manufacturers (Piper in my case) provided a serialized "Airplane
Flight Manual" that contained an equipment list. My old (CAR3) 172
did not have one.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Tim]

Yes, I think I also don't have to have one - it is quite muddled. I am
making one though.

what year was that up to?

wrote:
> On Mar 7, 8:58 am, Tim > wrote:
>
>>It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
>>it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
>>airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
>>then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.
>>
>>I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
>>something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
>>that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
>>online)
>
>
> One of thing that confuses this issue is that Part 23 requirements
> do not apply to aircraft certified under the old CAR3 regulations.
> As I recall, CAR3 did not require a current equipment list, although
> some manufacturers (Piper in my case) provided a serialized "Airplane
> Flight Manual" that contained an equipment list. My old (CAR3) 172
> did not have one.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
>

[Travis Marlatte]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> FAR 125 requires actual weighing the aircraft on a schedule.
> New aircraft are assumed to be accurate, but not all
> airplanes are weighed.
>

Are we talking about an equipment list for Part 125 operations? If so, I
missed that.

As for us Part 91 guys, no up to date equipement list is required (other
than log book entries when work is done) and no regular weighing is mandated
(other than updating the W&B when stuff is removed or added).

[Travis Marlatte]

"Tim" > wrote in message ...
> Travis Marlatte wrote:
>> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>No, it is required by part 43 et al.
>>
>>
>>
>> This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
>> information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
>> anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
>> book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
>> me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
>> an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.
>>
>> I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
>> missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
>> necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
>> A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
>> limited exposure to such things).
>> -------------------------------
>> Travis
>> Lake N3094P
>> PWK
>>
>>
> It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
> it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
> airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
> then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.
>
> I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
> something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
> that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
> online)


Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:


"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Travis Marlatte]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message t...
"Tim" > wrote in message ...
> Travis Marlatte wrote:
>> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>No, it is required by part 43 et al.
>>
>>
>>
>> This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
>> information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
>> anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
>> book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
>> me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
>> an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.
>>
>> I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
>> missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
>> necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
>> A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
>> limited exposure to such things).
>> -------------------------------
>> Travis
>> Lake N3094P
>> PWK
>>
>>
> It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
> it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
> airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
> then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.
>
> I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
> something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
> that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
> online)


Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:


"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK



Sorry, I fell into my own trap. 23.1589 does not describe an equipment list. It does define a describe of easily movable stuff. That description obviously could be in the form of an equipment list but it could take other forms and certainly doesn't need to be of sufficient details to allow calculating the W&B of the plane from the list alone - which is where Mike Busch went with it. Whatever it is, should be in the POH and only describes the state of the plane at manufacture.
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:54:15 -0800, Jim Macklin wrote
(in article >):

> There are many annuals done each year that are pencil
> whipped. You get what you want and pay for, more power to
> you for doing it right.
>

You can learn a lot from an owner annual, but you have to find a mechanic
that is willing to work with you on it. If he charges you extra, it is
probably worth it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Jim Macklin]

I meant to type 135 but 125 also requires that aircraft in
commercial service be actual put on scales and weighed on a
schedule. A proper aircraft weighing requires the
verification of the equipment list, nothing added or removed
that is not accounted for on paper.

The aircraft should be clean, the candy and soft drink cans
should be removed, even the life jackets that are not on the
equipment list should be removed. When they go back in,
they are baggage and not equipment.

Part 91 does require an equipment list and by practice, that
should be up to date. Just how complete the detail depends
on several things... but it should include the item name,
location[station/arm] and the weight.


It is nice if it includes sufficient detail so an AD
compliance search can begin with a paper rather that
disassembly of the airplane.



"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in
message
...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| ...
| > FAR 125 requires actual weighing the aircraft on a
schedule.
| > New aircraft are assumed to be accurate, but not all
| > airplanes are weighed.
| >
|
| Are we talking about an equipment list for Part 125
operations? If so, I
| missed that.
|
| As for us Part 91 guys, no up to date equipement list is
required (other
| than log book entries when work is done) and no regular
weighing is mandated
| (other than updating the W&B when stuff is removed or
added).
|
|

[Travis Marlatte]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Part 91 does require an equipment list and by practice, that
> should be up to date. Just how complete the detail depends
> on several things... but it should include the item name,
> location[station/arm] and the weight.
>


Right. Every plane certification requires an equipment list that defines a
repeatable condition for weighing the plane at time of manufacture - at
least those manufactured under the current Part 23 regs. I would agree that
a reasonable practice would be to keep that list up to date. But there is no
Part 91/23/43 requirement to do so.

In other words, the plane is in Part 91 compliance as long as the POH has
that original list plus log book entries that describes all of the
modifications made. Theoretically, a concise equipment list could be
constructed by piecing all that together. Of course, years of "negligible
change to W&B" could add up.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[[email protected]]

I suppose you could argue that the equipment list isn't needed, that a
trail through the
logbook would suffice. No one can seem to find the specific
reference.

If that's your point of view, would you be interested in paying every
IA who inspects your
plane to go through all the log entries and verify their correctness?
They would have
to do at least enough to convince themselves that it's OK.

>From a practical standpoint, the equipment list is the only way to
go. I like one that
cites logbook references for each addition or deletion so the details
can be researched.
I can glimpse the equipment list and the airplane to verify general
alignment.

Bill Hale A&P IA Regulation Dummy


On Mar 7, 8:42 pm, "Travis Marlatte" >
wrote:
> "Tim" > wrote in ...
> > Travis Marlatte wrote:
> >> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >>>No, it is required by part 43 et al.
>
> >> This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
> >> information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
> >> anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
> >> book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
> >> me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
> >> an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.
>
> >> I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
> >> missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
> >> necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
> >> A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
> >> limited exposure to such things).
> >> -------------------------------
> >> Travis
> >> Lake N3094P
> >> PWK
>
> > It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
> > it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
> > airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
> > then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.
>
> > I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
> > something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
> > that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
> > online)
>
> Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.
>
> Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification.. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
> § 23.1589 Loading information.
> The following loading information must be furnished:
>
> (a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
> can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
> installed when the airplane was weighed under the
> requirement of §23.25.
>
> So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.
>
> The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.
>
> Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.
>
> Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.
>
> Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
> He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."
>
> Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.
>
> I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.
>
> Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
> The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:
>
> "An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.
>
> "When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."
>
> That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.
>
> For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.
>
> I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?
>
> Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.
>
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Tim]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is bad to have one. I am just
hoping I have not operated against the regulations.

I am building my equipment list from a collection of W&B stuff, a
similar planes EL and my log books. I will end up with a good one soon.

thanks for all the comments from people.

wrote:
> I suppose you could argue that the equipment list isn't needed, that a
> trail through the
> logbook would suffice. No one can seem to find the specific
> reference.
>
> If that's your point of view, would you be interested in paying every
> IA who inspects your
> plane to go through all the log entries and verify their correctness?
> They would have
> to do at least enough to convince themselves that it's OK.
>
>>From a practical standpoint, the equipment list is the only way to
> go. I like one that
> cites logbook references for each addition or deletion so the details
> can be researched.
> I can glimpse the equipment list and the airplane to verify general
> alignment.
>
> Bill Hale A&P IA Regulation Dummy
>
>
> On Mar 7, 8:42 pm, "Travis Marlatte" >
> wrote:
>
>>"Tim" > wrote in ...
>>
>>>Travis Marlatte wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>>>No, it is required by part 43 et al.
>>
>>>>This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
>>>>information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
>>>>anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
>>>>book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
>>>>me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
>>>>an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.
>>
>>>>I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
>>>>missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
>>>>necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
>>>>A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
>>>>limited exposure to such things).
>>>>-------------------------------
>>>>Travis
>>>>Lake N3094P
>>>>PWK
>>
>>>It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
>>>it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
>>>airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
>>>then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.
>>
>>>I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
>>>something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
>>>that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
>>>online)
>>
>>Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.
>>
>>Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
>> § 23.1589 Loading information.
>> The following loading information must be furnished:
>>
>> (a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
>> can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
>> installed when the airplane was weighed under the
>> requirement of §23.25.
>>
>>So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.
>>
>>The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.
>>
>>Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.
>>
>>Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.
>>
>>Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
>>He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."
>>
>>Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.
>>
>>I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.
>>
>>Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
>> The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:
>>
>> "An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.
>>
>> "When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."
>>
>>That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.
>>
>>For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.
>>
>>I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?
>>
>>Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.
>>
>>-------------------------------
>>Travis
>>Lake N3094P
>>PWK- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
>

[Jim Macklin]

I would research your statement that there is no requirement
to keep the equipment list up to date. It is just not
reasonable to consider that the FAA would require an
equipment list and not require it to be kept current.

Remember that the regulations for an annual require that the
airplane [and that means paper-work too] be maintained in
the same condition as the original or modified and approved
condition.





"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in
message
t...
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| ...
| >
| > Part 91 does require an equipment list and by practice,
that
| > should be up to date. Just how complete the detail
depends
| > on several things... but it should include the item
name,
| > location[station/arm] and the weight.
| >
|
|
| Right. Every plane certification requires an equipment
list that defines a
| repeatable condition for weighing the plane at time of
manufacture - at
| least those manufactured under the current Part 23 regs. I
would agree that
| a reasonable practice would be to keep that list up to
date. But there is no
| Part 91/23/43 requirement to do so.
|
| In other words, the plane is in Part 91 compliance as long
as the POH has
| that original list plus log book entries that describes
all of the
| modifications made. Theoretically, a concise equipment
list could be
| constructed by piecing all that together. Of course, years
of "negligible
| change to W&B" could add up.
|
| -------------------------------
| Travis
| Lake N3094P
| PWK
|
|