ILS sans identification

[[email protected]]

Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
prior to it's use in the USA?
Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?

Stan

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
wrote:

> Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
> prior to it's use in the USA?
> Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
> required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
> is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
> stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?
>
> Stan

I can't cite chapter and verse, but I never bother listening to the morse
ident any more. The GNS-480 decodes it for you and displays the letter
code. I can't see any possible failure mode where the display would be
wrong but I would be able to correct it by listening myself.

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
>> prior to it's use in the USA?
>> Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
>> required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
>> is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
>> stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?
>>
>> Stan
>
> I can't cite chapter and verse, but I never bother listening to the morse
> ident any more. The GNS-480 decodes it for you and displays the letter
> code. I can't see any possible failure mode where the display would be
> wrong but I would be able to correct it by listening myself.

I don't know if it is a rule, but it is stupid not to. We had a plane
fly into terrain because they were tracking not the Localizer but a
nearby VOR.

The 480's and SL30's do nicely display the identifier. The 380 also
whack you if you try to fly an approach requiring NAV guidance with
the wrong frequency in the NAV side.

[ArtP]

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:59:55 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:


>The GNS-480 decodes it for you and displays the letter
>code. I can't see any possible failure mode where the display would be
>wrong but I would be able to correct it by listening myself.

Does it actually decode it or just display to info from its database.

[Ray Andraka]

wrote:

> Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
> prior to it's use in the USA?
> Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
> required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
> is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
> stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?
>
> Stan
>

I don't think it is required by a regulation, but it is good practice to
do so. I can think of one place where you can get two different ILS's
on the same frequency: Just east of Wilkes Barre, PA at ~6000' while
tuning into the Williamsport ILS27 (110.1 if memory serves), you pick up
another ILS, which I think may be Stewart on the same frequency. No way
to know which one you are receiving if you don't decode the Morse code.
While this is outside the published service volume, if you are
receiving the Williamsport ILS and tell ATC you've got it, they'll let
you track that inbound rather than going to the Williamsport VOR then
doglegging back to get to the IAF.

Another example is it lets you catch faulty equipment. Last fall, my #2
NAV developed an intermittent problem where the synthesizer was
generating the wrong local oscillator frequency and tuning to another
VOR in the area. Again, listening to the Morse code flagged the problem
right away even though the VOR was showing a valid signal and there was
a morse code....it was the wrong one.

[Thomas Borchert]

> Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
> prior to it's use in the USA?
>

91.3?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

ArtP,

> Does it actually decode it or just display to info from its database.
>

Actual decode.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jim Macklin]

The FAA removes the ID when the radio facility is out of
tolerance and "not in service" even though there may be a
signal being broadcast [maybe part of testing or trouble
shooting/repair] so it is my practice to have the audio on
at low volume. The monitoring decoding by the hardware is
very nice.
AIM 1-1-3
c. The only positive method of identifying a VOR is by its
Morse Code identification or by the recorded automatic voice
identification which is always indicated by use of the word
"VOR" following the range's name. Reliance on determining
the identification of an omnirange should never be placed on
listening to voice transmissions by the Flight Service
Station (FSS) (or approach control facility) involved. Many
FSSs remotely operate several omniranges with different
names. In some cases, none of the VORs have the name of the
"parent" FSS. During periods of maintenance, the facility
may radiate a T-E-S-T code (- · ··· -) or the code may be
removed

1-1-12. NAVAID Identifier Removal During Maintenance

During periods of routine or emergency maintenance, coded
identification (or code and voice, where applicable) is
removed from certain FAA NAVAIDs. Removal of identification
serves as a warning to pilots that the facility is
officially off the air for tune-up or repair and may be
unreliable even though intermittent or constant signals are
received.

NOTE-
During periods of maintenance VHF ranges may radiate a
T-E-S-T code (- l l l l -).

NOTE-
DO NOT attempt to fly a procedure that is NOTAMed out of
service even if the identification is present. In certain
cases, the identification may be transmitted for short
periods as part of the testing.






"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in
message ...
|> Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an
ils or vor
| > prior to it's use in the USA?
| >
|
| 91.3?
|
| --
| Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
|

[Roy Smith]

In article >, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article >,
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
> >> prior to it's use in the USA?
> >> Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
> >> required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
> >> is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
> >> stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?
> >>
> >> Stan
> >
> > I can't cite chapter and verse, but I never bother listening to the morse
> > ident any more. The GNS-480 decodes it for you and displays the letter
> > code. I can't see any possible failure mode where the display would be
> > wrong but I would be able to correct it by listening myself.
>
> I don't know if it is a rule, but it is stupid not to. We had a plane
> fly into terrain because they were tracking not the Localizer but a
> nearby VOR.

I didn't say I didn't identify it, I said I didn't listen to the morse.
The box listens to the morse for me and displays it as letters. I check to
make sure IHPN comes up in the display.

If I'm flying something without the decode feature, then I listen myself.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
ArtP > wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:59:55 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>
> >The GNS-480 decodes it for you and displays the letter
> >code. I can't see any possible failure mode where the display would be
> >wrong but I would be able to correct it by listening myself.
>
> Does it actually decode it or just display to info from its database.

It actually decodes it, and it has to decode it twice in a row the same way
before it display it. On a really weak signal, you can sometimes see it
get one of the letters wrong, then shortly after that, correct it.

[Ron Natalie]

ArtP wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:59:55 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>
>> The GNS-480 decodes it for you and displays the letter
>> code. I can't see any possible failure mode where the display would be
>> wrong but I would be able to correct it by listening myself.
>
> Does it actually decode it or just display to info from its database.
>
It decodes it. The SL30 doesn't even have a database.

[Ron Natalie]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> The FAA removes the ID when the radio facility is out of
> tolerance and "not in service" even though there may be a
> signal being broadcast [maybe part of testing or trouble
> shooting/repair] so it is my practice to have the audio on
> at low volume. The monitoring decoding by the hardware is
> very nice.
The TEST case brings to mind an amusing story. I was in the
backseat while my wife and her instructor were flying around
trying to track the EMI VOR. They had the IDENT volume up
so I could hear it sending. I finally had pity on them
and let them know it was sending TEST. Shame on Margy, she's
a HAM radio operator from the days when she had to copy CW
at more than twice the rate the VOR sends to get her license.

[Tauno Voipio]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>> The FAA removes the ID when the radio facility is out of tolerance and
>> "not in service" even though there may be a signal being broadcast
>> [maybe part of testing or trouble shooting/repair] so it is my
>> practice to have the audio on at low volume. The monitoring decoding
>> by the hardware is very nice.
>
> The TEST case brings to mind an amusing story. I was in the
> backseat while my wife and her instructor were flying around
> trying to track the EMI VOR. They had the IDENT volume up
> so I could hear it sending. I finally had pity on them
> and let them know it was sending TEST. Shame on Margy, she's
> a HAM radio operator from the days when she had to copy CW
> at more than twice the rate the VOR sends to get her license.

But just that's the problem - the ID's are so slow that
the thoughts slip to something else before decoding the code.

When you're really good with Morse, the slow speeds with
proper spacing start to be difficult to listen to.

--

Tauno Voipio (CPL(a), also OH2UG)
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

[[email protected]]

The Instrument rating PTS in section VI.B - (Precision approaches)
says:

"9. Selects, tunes, identifies, and monitors the operational status of
ground and airplane navigation equipment used for the approach."

So at least on checkrides you have a reference...

Ed

[Roy Smith]

In article om>,
wrote:

> The Instrument rating PTS in section VI.B - (Precision approaches)
> says:
>
> "9. Selects, tunes, identifies, and monitors the operational status of
> ground and airplane navigation equipment used for the approach."
>
> So at least on checkrides you have a reference...
>
> Ed

But, it doesn't say anything about listening to the morse code. Reading
"IHPN" on the front panel of the radio counts as "identifies" in my book.

[Mark Hansen]

On 03/07/07 17:46, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
>> The Instrument rating PTS in section VI.B - (Precision approaches)
>> says:
>>
>> "9. Selects, tunes, identifies, and monitors the operational status of
>> ground and airplane navigation equipment used for the approach."
>>
>> So at least on checkrides you have a reference...
>>
>> Ed
>
> But, it doesn't say anything about listening to the morse code. Reading
> "IHPN" on the front panel of the radio counts as "identifies" in my book.

Yes. It seems about half the people on this thread thought the question
was whether or not you needed to identify the station, and not do you
need to identify by listening to the morse code, or can you just read
the station ID on the avionics gear.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 5:51 pm, Mark Hansen > wrote:


>
> Yes. It seems about half the people on this thread thought the question
> was whether or not you needed to identify the station, and not do you
> need to identify by listening to the morse code, or can you just read
> the station ID on the avionics gear.

"Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
prior to it's use in the USA?
Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?

Stan"

Perhaps because both questions were asked.

Stan

[Robert Chambers]

It's the same for doing a VOR approach, do you keep the NAV button on
with the ident turned to an unobtrusive level while you are shooting the
approach? If the Morse code goes away it's a clue that the navaid my be
unreliable. Same thing for the ILS.

As for identifying PRIOR to use, that's a no brainer. It will get you
in trouble in an instrument ride if you DON'T identify a navaid when you
want to use it.

wrote:
> On Mar 7, 5:51 pm, Mark Hansen > wrote:
>
>
>
>>Yes. It seems about half the people on this thread thought the question
>>was whether or not you needed to identify the station, and not do you
>>need to identify by listening to the morse code, or can you just read
>>the station ID on the avionics gear.
>
>
> "Anyone have a reference for a requirement to identify an ils or vor
> prior to it's use in the USA?
> Secondly, is there any reference to the type of identification
> required? For example, would checking that the primary flight display
> is displaying the correct identifier suffice? Or is there a
> stipulation for morse code audible type of identification?
>
> Stan"
>
> Perhaps because both questions were asked.
>
> Stan
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 03/09/07 10:27, Robert Chambers wrote:
> It's the same for doing a VOR approach, do you keep the NAV button on
> with the ident turned to an unobtrusive level while you are shooting the
> approach? If the Morse code goes away it's a clue that the navaid my be
> unreliable. Same thing for the ILS.

Well, I was told to use all my nav equipment. So, I've got both VORs tuned
in, as well as the ADF, etc. That's a lot of morse code going on in the
cockpit during the approach.

As far at the VORs and LOCs go, the identification was to make sure you've
got the correct station. The absense of the flags are supposed to tell you
that it is still working.

>
> As for identifying PRIOR to use, that's a no brainer. It will get you
> in trouble in an instrument ride if you DON'T identify a navaid when you
> want to use it.

Not to mention the problem you can have if you accidentally get the wrong
station ;-\


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 12:25 am, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:
> The FAA removes the ID when the radio facility is out of
> tolerance and "not in service"

Perhaps the FAA does.

Here is a fun video of an aborted landing in Apia Samoa.

This video describes the post analysis of an avoided accident.

Apparently, there is a maintenance mode (control monitor bypass mode)
of an ILS glide slope transmitter.

In this mode, any GS receiver tuned to that ILS will immediately
conclude an on-glide slope condition. Regardless of position!

The ident, of course, only indicates a functioning localizer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmI

ak.

[G. Sylvester]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> Not to mention the problem you can have if you accidentally get the wrong
> station ;-\

IIRC this happened on a corporate jet flying into a Houston Airport that
was going to pick up George Bush Sr. Right approach plate but wrong
frequency that used on another approach that they failed to identify.

Gerald