Help with laws, modifications vs accessories, Regarding Interior lighting.

[EridanMan]

Hey Guys,

I was at Walgreens today, and I saw some cheap interior lights for
cars (LEDs) which plug into a cigarette lighter and light up your
dash... The lights were the wrong color, but otherwise I was
intrigued.

It got me thinking about doing a similar thing to upgrade the pathetic
night-lighting of my panel.

My question is-

My Cherokee has the old panel, complete with the cosmetic plastic
overlay that goes on top. I could get a couple Dozen LED's and a
12-14vdc dimmer switch to control them for relatively cheap online.
It strikes me that it would be a relatively easy deal to then take the
plastic panel off, shave back the instrument holes a bit, and then
secure LED's behind the plastic so that they would illuminate the
gauges... I could do all of this and then just hook up the input power
to a standard cigarette lighter plug... Bingo - cheap, modern,
dimmable panel lighting.

Is this legal?

The general rule of thumb that I've heard is that if it screws down,
its not an accessory, and yes, the plastic cover does screw onto the
main panel... I could always change that to secure it with Velcro if
need-be (although I would prefer not too).

It seems like such a trivial mod, would I really need to go through a
337 hassle with it?

Thanks for all input:)
-Scott

[Don Tuite]

On 12 Mar 2007 15:52:38 -0700, "EridanMan" >
wrote:

>Hey Guys,
>
>I was at Walgreens today, and I saw some cheap interior lights for
>cars (LEDs) which plug into a cigarette lighter and light up your
>dash... The lights were the wrong color, but otherwise I was
>intrigued.
>
>It got me thinking about doing a similar thing to upgrade the pathetic
>night-lighting of my panel.
>
>My question is-
>
>My Cherokee has the old panel, complete with the cosmetic plastic
>overlay that goes on top. I could get a couple Dozen LED's and a
>12-14vdc dimmer switch to control them for relatively cheap online.
>It strikes me that it would be a relatively easy deal to then take the
>plastic panel off, shave back the instrument holes a bit, and then
>secure LED's behind the plastic so that they would illuminate the
>gauges... I could do all of this and then just hook up the input power
>to a standard cigarette lighter plug... Bingo - cheap, modern,
>dimmable panel lighting.
>
>Is this legal?
>
>The general rule of thumb that I've heard is that if it screws down,
>its not an accessory, and yes, the plastic cover does screw onto the
>main panel... I could always change that to secure it with Velcro if
>need-be (although I would prefer not too).
>
>It seems like such a trivial mod, would I really need to go through a
>337 hassle with it?
>
No comment about the legality or wisdom of your plan, but if you
decide to go ahead with it, go to www.linear.com or www.maximic.com
and pick out a suitable LED driver with dimming (and read the data
sheets). You can order the parts for DigiKey.

Don

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 12, 5:52 pm, "EridanMan" > wrote:
> My Cherokee has the old panel, complete with the cosmetic plastic
> overlay that goes on top. I could get a couple Dozen LED's and a
> 12-14vdc dimmer switch to control them for relatively cheap online.
> It strikes me that it would be a relatively easy deal to then take the
> plastic panel off, shave back the instrument holes a bit, and then
> secure LED's behind the plastic so that they would illuminate the
> gauges... I could do all of this and then just hook up the input power
> to a standard cigarette lighter plug... Bingo - cheap, modern,
> dimmable panel lighting.
>
> Is this legal?

You just said it's cheap and modern - obviously it's not legal.

> The general rule of thumb that I've heard is that if it screws down,
> its not an accessory, and yes, the plastic cover does screw onto the
> main panel... I could always change that to secure it with Velcro if
> need-be (although I would prefer not too).

No you can't. That would be an alteration.

> It seems like such a trivial mod, would I really need to go through a
> 337 hassle with it?

If you want to be legal, it's even worse that that. You would need a
field approval. And you can't get one. They're not issuing them
anymore.

Ten years ago, when I started working on my A&P, this would have been
easy. There was a field approval granted to a Pacer for basically the
same thing you want to do, except wired in rather than plugged in, and
you could have gotten a 337 approved based on the prior field approval
in a similar aircraft. Those days are gone.

So now you're not going to get modern, cheap, and legal. But that's
really not the issue. You can't comply with all the regulations
anyway - the question is what can you get away with.

Realistically, you have four options.

Option 1 - semi-legal. We could decide that this is a minor
alteration involving the installation of an owner-produced part. As
the regs are actually written, it's even true. Jim Weir has made a
business of this. If you can find an A&P who will sign off on this,
you're fine - unless your IA is a pain in the ass who says it's not
legal, and maybe even calls the FSDO for "clarification" - and believe
me, when an IA calls the FSDO for clarification, unless he really,
really pushes hard for the answer to be "it's legal" it always comes
back otherwise.

As an A&P, I wouldn't sign it unless I knew the IA who was going to do
the annual for the forseeable future and was verbally assured by him
that he was cool with it.

Option 2 - marginally legal. Do it, don't tell anyone, remove it
before annual, reinstall it after (should take 20 minutes). Chances
of being busted - essentially nil. If you are busted, claim
ignorance. After all, the stuff YOU added is not permanently
installed - just tape and/or velcro - and you only removed and
reinstalled the cosmetic panel cover (which you are allowed to do) to
get to where you needed to put the lights. Worst you get is a slap on
the wrist.

Option 3 - live with what you have.

Option 4 - pay through the nose for a certified system.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Michael

[Steve Foley]

"Michael" > wrote in message
ups.com...


> If you want to be legal, it's even worse that that. You would need a
> field approval. And you can't get one. They're not issuing them
> anymore.

Is this a blanket statement, or are some FSDOs issuing them and some not?

[Tri-Pacer]

>
>> If you want to be legal, it's even worse that that. You would need a
>> field approval. And you can't get one. They're not issuing them
>> anymore.
>
> Is this a blanket statement, or are some FSDOs issuing them and some not?
>

If you have a working relationship with your PMI, reasonable field approvals
aren't hard to get.

If you can come up with another approved 337 as acceptable data then the
approval is real easy.

Cheers:

Paul Anton
N1431A
(A&P IA)

[EridanMan]

> You just said it's cheap and modern - obviously it's not legal.

Why was I afraid you'd say that.

> If you want to be legal, it's even worse that that. You would need a
> field approval. And you can't get one. They're not issuing them
> anymore.

Where did you hear this?

I've heard its still a pain in the ass, but not that they've stopped.

> Option 1 - semi-legal. We could decide that this is a minor
> alteration involving the installation of an owner-produced part. As
> the regs are actually written, it's even true. Jim Weir has made a
> business of this. If you can find an A&P who will sign off on this,
> you're fine - unless your IA is a pain in the ass who says it's not
> legal, and maybe even calls the FSDO for "clarification" - and believe
> me, when an IA calls the FSDO for clarification, unless he really,
> really pushes hard for the answer to be "it's legal" it always comes
> back otherwise.

I'll talk to my mech about this.

> Option 2 - marginally legal. Do it, don't tell anyone, remove it
> before annual, reinstall it after (should take 20 minutes). Chances
> of being busted - essentially nil. If you are busted, claim
> ignorance. After all, the stuff YOU added is not permanently
> installed - just tape and/or velcro - and you only removed and
> reinstalled the cosmetic panel cover (which you are allowed to do) to
> get to where you needed to put the lights. Worst you get is a slap on
> the wrist.

Strikes me as being more trouble than its worth.

> Option 3 - live with what you have.

For the time being I have no choice... in all reality though, a 15
dollar selectable red/white LED head-lamp does everything I need.

> Option 4 - pay through the nose for a certified system.

A fool and his money...

> Sorry to burst your bubble.

NP, thanks for the in-depth answer:)

-Scott

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 13, 11:33 am, "Steve Foley" > wrote:
> Is this a blanket statement, or are some FSDOs issuing them and some not?

Every FSDO is a kingtom unto itself. I hear there are still a few,
here and there, where the old guys are hanging on, and doing things as
they have always done them, essentially ignoring the directives from
above. Haven't actually seen it.

I know that in the Houston FSDO, unless there is specific guidance for
the field approval (such as for the installation of a GPS), it won't
happen. Owner-produced modifications? Only if you can prove they are
identical to a certified part.

Michael

[Stan Prevost]

Why not just wear an LED headlamp? Red, white, whatever color you prefer.
The light always shines where you point your nose.

Stan


"EridanMan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey Guys,
>
> I was at Walgreens today, and I saw some cheap interior lights for
> cars (LEDs) which plug into a cigarette lighter and light up your
> dash... The lights were the wrong color, but otherwise I was
> intrigued.
>
> It got me thinking about doing a similar thing to upgrade the pathetic
> night-lighting of my panel.
>
> My question is-
>
> My Cherokee has the old panel, complete with the cosmetic plastic
> overlay that goes on top. I could get a couple Dozen LED's and a
> 12-14vdc dimmer switch to control them for relatively cheap online.
> It strikes me that it would be a relatively easy deal to then take the
> plastic panel off, shave back the instrument holes a bit, and then
> secure LED's behind the plastic so that they would illuminate the
> gauges... I could do all of this and then just hook up the input power
> to a standard cigarette lighter plug... Bingo - cheap, modern,
> dimmable panel lighting.
>
> Is this legal?
>
> The general rule of thumb that I've heard is that if it screws down,
> its not an accessory, and yes, the plastic cover does screw onto the
> main panel... I could always change that to secure it with Velcro if
> need-be (although I would prefer not too).
>
> It seems like such a trivial mod, would I really need to go through a
> 337 hassle with it?
>
> Thanks for all input:)
> -Scott
>

[JB]

On Mar 13, 8:35 pm, "Stan Prevost" > wrote:
> Why not just wear an LED headlamp? Red, white, whatever color you prefer.
> The light always shines where you point your nose.
>
> Stan
>

After wearing one for several flights, I found it to be very
uncomfortable. No matter how loose I made the strap (just short of
falling down), the pressure on my forehead gave me a headache after an
hour or so. I've now got one of those 3-LED lights you clip on the
front of a ball cap. Same lighting, no square indent on my
forehead! The only thing I miss is that the headlamp had an up/down
swivel...abit better for looking down at a map.

--Jeff

[John[_9_]]

On Mar 13, 6:05 pm, "Michael" >
wrote:
> On Mar 13, 11:33 am, "Steve Foley" > wrote:
>
> > Is this a blanket statement, or are some FSDOs issuing them and some not?
>
> Every FSDO is a kingtom unto itself. I hear there are still a few,
> here and there, where the old guys are hanging on, and doing things as
> they have always done them, essentially ignoring the directives from
> above. Haven't actually seen it.
>
> I know that in the Houston FSDO, unless there is specific guidance for
> the field approval (such as for the installation of a GPS), it won't
> happen. Owner-produced modifications? Only if you can prove they are
> identical to a certified part.
>
> Michael


It is going to get worse. I just got a copy of the SAE journal where
PAMA (Professional Aviation Maintenance Association) has a page and it
seems there is a new notice of proposed rulemaking that would outlaw
the fabrication of replacement parts entirely. If approved then if it
doesn't come from an OEM or a PMA you cannot make it. The rule was
published after the comment period ended. I hope that PAMA, EAA, AOPA
etc. jump all over this one.

I don't think anyone at the FAA realizes what they are doing. They
are not going to make aviation safer by going this route. People will
just go underground. They will make the replacement part and then get
creative in installing it to look like it was thier all the time.
Then they won't make any record of it. Once they start doing that
with simple brackets and doublers they will move on to other parts.
Eventually you will see an entire underground aviation economy where
mechanics will give up thier licenses and continue to work without
regard to the FAA at all. It's already happening in lots of small out
of the way airports but it will spread.

John Dupre'

[[email protected]]

JB > wrote:
> On Mar 13, 8:35 pm, "Stan Prevost" > wrote:
> > Why not just wear an LED headlamp? Red, white, whatever color you prefer.
> > The light always shines where you point your nose.
> >
> > Stan
> >

> After wearing one for several flights, I found it to be very
> uncomfortable. No matter how loose I made the strap (just short of
> falling down), the pressure on my forehead gave me a headache after an
> hour or so. I've now got one of those 3-LED lights you clip on the
> front of a ball cap. Same lighting, no square indent on my
> forehead! The only thing I miss is that the headlamp had an up/down
> swivel...abit better for looking down at a map.

> --Jeff

I got a thing called a Blackout Light by Navaire, which is essentially
a tiny flashlight with adapters to stick it on your headset.

It snaps on a little swivel thing so you can point it where you want
and take it off when you don't want it.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Stan Prevost]

"JB" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Mar 13, 8:35 pm, "Stan Prevost" > wrote:
>> Why not just wear an LED headlamp? Red, white, whatever color you
>> prefer.
>> The light always shines where you point your nose.
>>
>> Stan
>>
>
> After wearing one for several flights, I found it to be very
> uncomfortable. No matter how loose I made the strap (just short of
> falling down), the pressure on my forehead gave me a headache after an
> hour or so. I've now got one of those 3-LED lights you clip on the
> front of a ball cap. Same lighting, no square indent on my
> forehead! The only thing I miss is that the headlamp had an up/down
> swivel...abit better for looking down at a map.
>
> --Jeff
>

Yeah, well, whatever works for you, but I have found that something like
that is more effective and lots cheaper that trying to improve the panel
lighting. My Saratoga is well lit, but I still wear the headlamp. And for
renters, you are on your own for lighting.

Stan

[[email protected]]

On Mar 12, 3:52 pm, "EridanMan" > wrote:
>
> It got me thinking about doing a similar thing to upgrade the pathetic
> night-lighting of my panel.
>

Have you considered an AshLight? http://www.pinnacleproducts.biz/

I put one of these in my Cherokee's pilot side ashtray slot to
augment the panel lighting and it works great. I'm considering
getting another for the passenger side to use assist in nightime
boarding.

They use very bright red LEDs and run on a couple of AAA batteries,
so there's no electrical connection (or FAA paperwork).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 14, 12:17 pm, "John" > wrote:
> It is going to get worse.

Of course it is. This is the FAA we're talking about. Motto: "We're
not happy until you're not happy."

> They are not going to make aviation safer by going this route. People will
> just go underground.

Or they won't. That STILL won't make aviation safer. Look at the
example we're dealing with. In any sane world, adding some panel
lights to a cherokee is a minor alteration, and something that should
be done on an A&P's signature. Just stick to 43.13 - use wire that
can take the load, fuse it appropriately, use the proper hardware -
and then no matter what happens, the worst that will happen is that
you'll have to fall back on the flashlight. But no...

So what's going to happen? The owner will keep messing with
flashlights. This is WRONG. Use of a flashlight in the cockpit is
distracting. It should be an emergency procedure, not a normal one.
Every flight instructor worth his salt will tell you that night flight
is more dangerous not because of the tiny chance of engine failure
with nowhere to go, but because of the increased workload. And what's
the major factor in the increased workload? Poor visibility in the
cockpit. Because our lighting systems suck, and most GA pilots are
still using flashlights in the cockpit.

Now the technology is there to make a simple and cost-effective
improvement - but the FAA stands in the way. I am absolutely serious
when I say that the FAA is the biggest safety problem in GA.

> They will make the replacement part and then get
> creative in installing it to look like it was thier all the time.

Yup. But that only works when you use the same obsolete technology
the plane was built and certified with.

> It's already happening in lots of small out
> of the way airports but it will spread.

Sure is. Only way most normal folks can affort to fly.

Michael