Annual Off to a Good Start

[Jay Honeck]

Although I am starting to resent the whole annual inspection process.
More on that in a minute.

All compressions on our O-540 are 78 or better out of 80, so that's
always a relief. The oil filter was clean (as always), and the exhaust
system is sound. Those are three big-ticket items off the list --
always a relief.

As always, however, the inspection process itself has created some
problems. The stupid tail cone must be removed to inspect the
stabilator hinges and trim jack screw, which means torquing on
nutplates attached to plastic. (Whoever approved THAT **** on a
certified plane?)

Of course at least one of the nutplates has to twist off the old,
brittle plastic, resulting in a repair bill where none was necessary.
Same goes for removing the umpteen screws on the access panels. Does
a 4" by 6" inspection panel REALLY need 9 easily strippable screws to
hold it on? Wouldn't TWO (or 3?) done the job? Stupid.

My A&P could only smile and commiserate with me. He says that there
is a move afoot to make the "annual" inspection an every-other-year
affair, which makes good sense to me. It therefore has no hope of
approval.

More good news: I unscrewed the 6.3 million stainless steel structural
screws to remove the starboard main fuel tank, to search for our fuel
leak. (Classified as a "stain" -- not a "seep" -- by my A&P) My
forearms are still burning, because I didn't want to risk stripping
any of my expensive stainless screws, so I did 'em all by hand.

We found a problem right away -- a seeping rivet -- and were able to
fix it without resorting to sending the tank out for a complete
teardown and overhaul.

He used his rivet gun (while I bucked the rivets) to tighten down the
whole row of rivets around the offending rivet, and then applied fuel
tank sealant to the INSIDE of the tank on that rivet row. In an
amazing stroke of luck, that leaking rivet was accessible by reaching
through the fuel tank filler -- a one in a hundred chance.

Then we found another seeping rivet from under the sealant around the
fuel gauge sending unit. That simply required another dab of fuel
tank sealant, and (hopefully!) my leaky tank is now history.

Tomorrow we start on the interior, which means removing all the seats,
and the floor under the back seats. My A&P is eager to get back to
working on his P6 Hawk biplane, which is almost ready for its first
flight -- so we should be done with my annual in record time!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BT]

Good reports Jay.. our Pawnee with the O540 just started the annual today
also.. as it was just rebuilt two years ago, with the 250HP STC up from
235HP and fixed pitch prop... all is well so far.. just researching
AD20070419 to document that it does not apply (Superior Aircraft Cylinders)
ours are from 1999.

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Although I am starting to resent the whole annual inspection process.
> More on that in a minute.
>
> All compressions on our O-540 are 78 or better out of 80, so that's
> always a relief. The oil filter was clean (as always), and the exhaust
> system is sound. Those are three big-ticket items off the list --
> always a relief.
>
> As always, however, the inspection process itself has created some
> problems. The stupid tail cone must be removed to inspect the
> stabilator hinges and trim jack screw, which means torquing on
> nutplates attached to plastic. (Whoever approved THAT **** on a
> certified plane?)
>
> Of course at least one of the nutplates has to twist off the old,
> brittle plastic, resulting in a repair bill where none was necessary.
> Same goes for removing the umpteen screws on the access panels. Does
> a 4" by 6" inspection panel REALLY need 9 easily strippable screws to
> hold it on? Wouldn't TWO (or 3?) done the job? Stupid.
>
> My A&P could only smile and commiserate with me. He says that there
> is a move afoot to make the "annual" inspection an every-other-year
> affair, which makes good sense to me. It therefore has no hope of
> approval.
>
> More good news: I unscrewed the 6.3 million stainless steel structural
> screws to remove the starboard main fuel tank, to search for our fuel
> leak. (Classified as a "stain" -- not a "seep" -- by my A&P) My
> forearms are still burning, because I didn't want to risk stripping
> any of my expensive stainless screws, so I did 'em all by hand.
>
> We found a problem right away -- a seeping rivet -- and were able to
> fix it without resorting to sending the tank out for a complete
> teardown and overhaul.
>
> He used his rivet gun (while I bucked the rivets) to tighten down the
> whole row of rivets around the offending rivet, and then applied fuel
> tank sealant to the INSIDE of the tank on that rivet row. In an
> amazing stroke of luck, that leaking rivet was accessible by reaching
> through the fuel tank filler -- a one in a hundred chance.
>
> Then we found another seeping rivet from under the sealant around the
> fuel gauge sending unit. That simply required another dab of fuel
> tank sealant, and (hopefully!) my leaky tank is now history.
>
> Tomorrow we start on the interior, which means removing all the seats,
> and the floor under the back seats. My A&P is eager to get back to
> working on his P6 Hawk biplane, which is almost ready for its first
> flight -- so we should be done with my annual in record time!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Peter R.]

On 3/20/2007 12:27:21 AM, "BT" wrote:

> our Pawnee with the O540 just started the annual today
> also..

Must be that time of year. My Bonanza is also in for its annual this week.
One day in to it and a cracked spinner starts off the "unexpected big ticket
item" list.

--
Peter

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Sounds like everything is going well! Glad the engine is tight and the fuel
tank problem was easily repaired. Did you get hit by the Superior cylinder
AD as mentioned below?
Jim

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> More good news: I unscrewed the 6.3 million stainless steel structural
> screws to remove the starboard main fuel tank, to search for our fuel
> leak. (Classified as a "stain" -- not a "seep" -- by my A&P) My
> forearms are still burning, because I didn't want to risk stripping
> any of my expensive stainless screws, so I did 'em all by hand.
>
> We found a problem right away -- a seeping rivet -- and were able to
> fix it without resorting to sending the tank out for a complete
> teardown and overhaul.


Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any time
you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache. Didn't
you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I put in a new
bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.

[nrp]

Jay - Put a drop of antisieze on the threads (and maybe under the head
too) of each screw that has to go back into a threaded insert. Don't
let ANY antisieze get near the Philips driver or the screwheads or
driver will cam out on reassembly.

Antisieze seals the thread from further corrosion and does wonders for
the next time they have to be removed. Stainless screws especially
need this treatment, as they too will corrode in the presence of
aluminum.

[Marco Leon]

"Peter R."
> Must be that time of year. My Bonanza is also in for its annual this week.
> One day in to it and a cracked spinner starts off the "unexpected big
> ticket
> item" list.

Mine's going in the third week of April. As a datapoint, my insurance
company agreed to pay for my cracked spinner last year. Despite its
appearance coinciding with a trip where an FBO handled the plane, they
concluded it was probably normal wear and tear (so YMMV).

Good luck to you and Jay.

Marco

[nrp]

It normally takes many many loading cycles or even hi-cycle vibration
to create a crack. A single overload (from bad ground handling)
simply creates a dent - which can eventually turn into a crack of
course, but the dent evidence should still be there.

[Peter R.]

On 3/20/2007 1:30:25 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:

> Mine's going in the third week of April. As a datapoint, my insurance
> company agreed to pay for my cracked spinner last year. Despite its
> appearance coinciding with a trip where an FBO handled the plane, they
> concluded it was probably normal wear and tear (so YMMV).

You certainly had me excited there for a moment. :)

Me: "Hello, insurance company? My, uh, mechanic told me that he heard that a
cracked spinner might be covered under my insurance policy. Is that true?"

Them: "Ummm... No. That is considered normal wear and tear and therefore
*not* covered. But you have a great day, OK?"


--
Peter

[Marco Leon]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> You certainly had me excited there for a moment. :)
>
> Me: "Hello, insurance company? My, uh, mechanic told me that he heard that
> a
> cracked spinner might be covered under my insurance policy. Is that
> true?"
>
> Them: "Ummm... No. That is considered normal wear and tear and therefore
> *not* covered. But you have a great day, OK?"

I think I'm pretty thorough when I preflight and the crack was not there
from one flight to the next. It appeared on both sides of the spinner
simultaneously. I will also add that my original spinner was not fiberglass
as I understand that fiberglass ones are much more durable. I honestly
thought it was done by a lineperson so I was not trying to pull one over
their heads.

Call them. The worst they'll say is "no" and you won't see them shaking
their head as they hang up the phone anyway ;)

Marco

[Peter R.]

On 3/20/2007 4:06:14 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:

> Call them. The worst they'll say is "no" and you won't see them shaking
> their head as they hang up the phone anyway ;)

I did. What I quoted was pretty much the gist of the conversation.

--
Peter

[[email protected][_1_]]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any time
>you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache. Didn't
>you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I put in a new
>bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.

So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?

Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?

TC

[Jim Burns]

One of my favorite "you won't believe what they found in my airplane"
stories is that of a guy who kept hearing a clunking noise inside the wing
of his 182 when he flew with less than 1/2 fuel. It turned out to be the
2x4 that the bladder installer left as evidence of just how "easy" they are
to button down.
Jim

> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>
>>
>>Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any time
>>you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache. Didn't
>>you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I put in a new
>>bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.
>
> So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?
>
> Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?
>
> TC

[[email protected][_1_]]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:03:46 -0500, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:

>One of my favorite "you won't believe what they found in my airplane"
>stories is that of a guy who kept hearing a clunking noise inside the wing
>of his 182 when he flew with less than 1/2 fuel. It turned out to be the
>2x4 that the bladder installer left as evidence of just how "easy" they are
>to button down.
>Jim

Lot of Aztrucks flying around with a blind rivet in the center of the
groups of four rivets that secure the little brackets that the
bladder button clips into. Usually just on the ones that are farthest
from the access/close-out plate.

Have never drilled a "virgin" one myself, but allegedly have r&r'ed
some rivets that were already there.

The theory is to snake a piece of safety wire done through the skin,
through the bracket, through the loop in the button, back out the top
following the same route. Pull on the wire, the clip goes into the
bracket...

There are a couple on 182's that are a serious PITA.

TC

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Sounds interesting for sure. All of our bladders were replaced during the
last few years prior to our purchase. I'm going to look closely for the
blind rivet heads.
Thanks
Jim

[Jay Honeck]

> Sounds like everything is going well! Glad the engine is tight and the fuel
> tank problem was easily repaired. Did you get hit by the Superior cylinder
> AD as mentioned below?

Nope, we have once again dodged the latest of the dreaded engine ADs.
With our O-540 I have felt like the guy who has been told to "Dance!"
by the bad guy in the black cowboy hat, every time I get one of those
official-looking letters. So far, they haven't hit me!

:-)

Our leak saga continues. I had purposefully let the bottoms of the
wings get dirty for the last several months, so that we would be able
to easily track any fuel leaks/seeps back to their source. Yesterday
I found evidence of a larger leak than the ones we had fixed in the
main tank, which were obviously just seeps.

As you may recall, the first evidence of our leak (other than a faint
odor in the cabin when you first opened the door) was when Mary
spotted the rubber wing-root seal hanging down, fattened and gooey
from gas exposure. My wrench and I have puzzled over this, since the
leaks we had found (and fixed) seemed to be too small to cause this
type of damage.

So, while I was under the plane cleaning out the central drain filter
(the 235 has a central "pee-drain" in the belly, like the Cherokee 6),
I carefully tracked down every stain. With the wing-root inspection
fairings removed, and a mirror, I was able to spot a tip-tank hose
fitting that showed evidence of leakage.

My A&P proceeded to dislocate both his wrists getting a couple of
wrenches on that fitting, and was rewarded with an easy 1/3 turn to
make it tight. He is of the opinion that this was our main culprit,
and that by tightening that fitting we have resolved the last of the
fuel issues. I sure hope so.

We've fixed some other nagging problems. In the cabin, on the front of
the back seat (where the calves of your legs rest) is a control that
allows us to "pee" the gas tanks out of the belly drain. This is
covered with a cheesy plastic panel, with an even cheesier metal door,
retained by an even cheesier spring. This thing is so bad that there
is an AD on the door, because EVERYONE catches it with their feet
getting in the back seat. (You can't just remove the dumb door,
either, since without it you could conceivably have a passenger catch
his pants leg on the pee-drain control lever itself, which would cause
you to dump all of your fuel overboard in flight...)

On each flight I tell my kids "Be careful of the fuel door" -- but it
still gets broken. We have repaired the damned thing (with JB Weld)
at every annual since we bought Atlas, but it's such a cheap design
that this year I asked my mechanic -- a champion homebuilder -- to
invent a better mousetrap.

So, he looked at it for about 30 seconds, went over to his metal
press, and started cutting aluminum. 20 minutes later, I had a legal,
metal-reinforced plate holding on a MUCH stronger metal door. We
then spray painted it to match the interior, and voila! Hopefully, I
won't be screwing around with that little bugger again.

(Doug Vetter, if you're reading this, IMHO this is an example of the
type of repair your A&P could have done with your battery box, and
saved you $700.)

My A&P also reinforced the tail-cone screw attachment points by
putting in a "ring" of aluminum down the line of screw backing
plates. No more metal backing plates screwed into brittle plastic!

Here's a true but all-to-common sad tale of my owner-assisted
annuals: As I was reinstalling the gas tank (by finger screwing in
the 3.2 million stainless steel screws that hold it in the wing) all
was going well -- until the VERY LAST SCREW. That one just fell in
the hole, and would NOT tighten.

This couldn't possibly ever happen on the FIRST screw, or even the
20th screw -- it HAS to be the last one. So, I had to take them all
out, jostle the tank a bit, and start over. Story of my
life... ;-) (I'm just glad I had only finger-tightened them. If I
had driven them all home, I'd have committed hari-kari on the spot...)

Today I'll put the interior back in (all was well there, just needed
some cleaning/lubing of the control pulleys, as always), and button
Atlas up. Other than the fuel leak, this has been a really easy
annual.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Antisieze seals the thread from further corrosion and does wonders for
> the next time they have to be removed. Stainless screws especially
> need this treatment, as they too will corrode in the presence of
> aluminum.

Thanks for the tip!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

I'm ready for a nap after reading that.
Don't ya just hate it when the very last screw "screws" you? BTDT many
times.
Would have putting Clecos in the tank screw holes helped you line them all
up before starting the screws?
Jim

[Newps]

I replaced a bladder a year ago. 42 gallon tank in the left wing. Bo
bladders cost the same as Cessna bladders of similar gallons when you
buy from the three main aftermarket sources like Eagle or Floats and
Fuel Cells. No idea what Beech charges, probably horrendous. But
nobody buys a bladder from Beech or Cessna. That would be stupid,
they're buying them aftermarket, why pay the up charge? Labor for a Bo
is less than on the 182 I had by several hours. First reason is because
you are standing on the ground and not always going up and down the
ladder. Second is all the snaps are easily reachable. Third all the
connections are easily accessible, no dissasembling the headliner to get
at the sender, etc. Fourth the tank is easily removable. How do you
get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?

wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>
>> Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any time
>> you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache. Didn't
>> you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I put in a new
>> bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.
>
> So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?
>
> Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?
>
> TC

[Peter R.]

On 3/21/2007 11:29:54 AM, Newps wrote:

> I replaced a bladder a year ago.

Thanks for providing your experiences. I had been thinking that the only
major issue I had left to encounter with my Bonanza (after replacing the
engine, overhauling the prop, and various avionics repairs) would have been
fuel bladder replacements. It seems from reading your narrative that it is
not quite as bad as I had envisioned.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

On 3/21/2007 3:55:17 PM, "Jim Burns" wrote:

> What's that? Oh it DIDN'T leak! Good for you! You showed those bloody
> engineers! Ha! Take that!

Man, that is painful to read.

--
Peter

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

No mention of what make/model, but here's a rant by an A&P about bladders
from the AMT forums... enjoy.

Today a coworker and I were discussing feats of engineering that scaled the
heights of stupidity. We decided that aircraft engineers must be failed
automotive or mechanical engineers finding refuge in the dark, murky
hinterland of aviation, where they are free to wreak havoc on hapless AMT's
with total impunity and no fear of retribution or retaliation. Some of the
beauties they've created:
The "Fruit Roll-up Fuel Cell": Roll it up like a sleeping bag and stuff it
through a sharp metal-edged hole about half the diameter of said sleeping
bag. Now unroll it. Fix it in place with snaps that are located in the right
location, only 1/2" off from where you need them to be. Now stuff flexible
aluminum mesh screens through hard rubber nipples without bending them. Did
that? OK, now put hose clamps on those nipples up inside a 1 inch wing root
gap. Don't forget the one on top! Now, stuff the fuel transmitter through a
hole much too small (it's OK to bend the float arm, right? Just as long as I
bend it back?) Now, line up a gasket sandwich with too-short screws with
seals under the heads. Oh, did I mention the gaskets only line up correctly
ONE WAY? Sorry. You'll have to remove the transmitter again, rebend the
float arm, line everything up in your hand and mark it with a Sharpie. Now
Bend the float arm again and reinstall it. Straighten out the float arm. Got
it? Whew! Good.
Now you get to put all the little floating snap-things in their straps and
try to shove them in holes you can't see, can't feel, but just know have to
be there. Don't miss any! Can't reach the far corner ones? WHAT!!!? God
didn't equip you with four-and-a-half foot arms from birth? Some AMT you
are! Use a two-by-four swaddled in duct tape, dummy! What? No leverage?
Well, duct-tape it to your arm. Hairy arms are for gorillas anyway. Finally
got it? Good! Now hook up the vent line. Never mind the agonizing pain as
the metal rends your flesh. I'll let you in on a secret; these engineers
measured the forarms of an average man at a certain point, then placed the
vent line four inches aft of where your forearm diameter completely fills
the inspection hole. Crafty little buggers!
Now close up the fuel bay panels. Why do we need #3 Phillips screws, and why
are they all rusty and stripped? Oh....because they knew we wouldn't have
any in stock. Nevermind!
Now (drum roll) Fill 'er up. Does it leak? You poor ba$tard! Now you have to
drain it, and you can't put the fuel back in! The FAA would never approve of
refueling from a 55 gallon drum. So you get to charge the customer for
fourty gallons of fuel he never got. Or, tell the boss that you can't bill
him for fourty gallons of fuel he never got because you goofed and it leaks.
Lesser of two evils?
What's that? Oh it DIDN'T leak! Good for you! You showed those bloody
engineers! Ha! Take that!

What's that? The book flat-rate for this monkey motion is EIGHT
HOURS!!!!!!!!!!?????

Jim

[dave]

Before I got my Bonanza, I was looking at Mooney's. The after market
bladder tanks made by O&N are considered an upgrade. My bladders were
all replaced about 20 years ago.

My first annual with this airplane is in May.

Dave
M35

Newps wrote:
> I replaced a bladder a year ago. 42 gallon tank in the left wing. Bo
> bladders cost the same as Cessna bladders of similar gallons when you
> buy from the three main aftermarket sources like Eagle or Floats and
> Fuel Cells. No idea what Beech charges, probably horrendous. But
> nobody buys a bladder from Beech or Cessna. That would be stupid,
> they're buying them aftermarket, why pay the up charge? Labor for a Bo
> is less than on the 182 I had by several hours. First reason is because
> you are standing on the ground and not always going up and down the
> ladder. Second is all the snaps are easily reachable. Third all the
> connections are easily accessible, no dissasembling the headliner to get
> at the sender, etc. Fourth the tank is easily removable. How do you
> get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?
>
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>>
>>> Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any
>>> time you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache.
>>> Didn't you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I
>>> put in a new bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.
>>
>> So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?
>>
>> Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?
>>
>> TC

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Yep... no doubt literally. I just finished helping an A&P install a new set
of seat rails in a C182. My wife said my hands looked liked I'd been
petting a porcupine. The edges of the lightening holes are wonderful
exfoliating devices, I can't imagine what they can do to you when you're
armpit deep into one.
Jim

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 3/21/2007 3:55:17 PM, "Jim Burns" wrote:
>
> > What's that? Oh it DIDN'T leak! Good for you! You showed those bloody
> > engineers! Ha! Take that!
>
> Man, that is painful to read.
>
> --
> Peter

[[email protected]]

On Mar 21, 11:29 am, Newps > wrote:
> I replaced a bladder a year ago. 42 gallon tank in the left wing. Bo
> bladders cost the same as Cessna bladders of similar gallons when you
> buy from the three main aftermarket sources like Eagle or Floats and
> Fuel Cells. No idea what Beech charges, probably horrendous. But
> nobody buys a bladder from Beech or Cessna. That would be stupid,
> they're buying them aftermarket, why pay the up charge? Labor for a Bo
> is less than on the 182 I had by several hours. First reason is because
> you are standing on the ground and not always going up and down the
> ladder. Second is all the snaps are easily reachable. Third all the
> connections are easily accessible, no dissasembling the headliner to get
> at the sender, etc. Fourth the tank is easily removable. How do you
> get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?
>

"that would be stupid, why pay the up charge"

Well, let's see. Based purely on personal experience, the life of an
aftermarket tank is usually about half that of an OEM tank-primarily
depends on how good of a job the aftermarket boys did in "engineering"
the new tank. The other reason might be that there are aftermarket
Bonanza tanks out there that will NOT fit in the applicable make and
model of A/C. Really neat thing to find out after you have spent the
time (and tied up a hangar bay) to send out a bladder for eval, find
out it's junk (big surprise), purchase an aftermarket tank ("why
should I pay the extra $$") and find out that either the tank sump
drain nipple OR the main fuel feed nipple will line up and poke out
through the little hole...

A basic older Bo tank is a little easier than a 180-twice, BTW, I've
allegedly done both. A King Air is a piece of cake, the size of each
fuel bay/bladder is a lot smaller in relation to the size of the
access panel. You still have to remove all the old tape and glue
residue and re-tape. Aztecs suck rocks.

Despite Jay's tale of woe, pulling a Cherokee wing tank is a matter of
removing some 10-32 structural machine screws and sliding the whole
thing out (in one piece) out of the wing. Repairs are just like any
other "wet-wing" structure, but you have the piece of wing laying on
the workbench, with ready access to the majority of the rivets.
Getting the screws out can be a real bitch, but it doesn't involve any
rivets, snaps or duct tape. The composite Cherokee tip tank is another
story-I'd rather have a bladder any day of the week.

BTW, why did you charge yourself labor for changing out a bladder?

TC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
<...> We've fixed some other nagging problems. In the cabin, on the front of
> the back seat (where the calves of your legs rest) is a control that
> allows us to "pee" the gas tanks out of the belly drain. This is
> covered with a cheesy plastic panel, with an even cheesier metal door,
> retained by an even cheesier spring. This thing is so bad that there
> is an AD on the door, because EVERYONE catches it with their feet
> getting in the back seat. (You can't just remove the dumb door,
> either, since without it you could conceivably have a passenger catch
> his pants leg on the pee-drain control lever itself, which would cause
> you to dump all of your fuel overboard in flight...)
<...>

If there was ever an application that screamed "Duct Tape" - this had to be
it.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Jay Honeck]

> If there was ever an application that screamed "Duct Tape" - this had to be
> it.

Yeah, we've considered that, but we do need to get at that lever
regularly.

It's fixed now, hopefully "once and for all"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Despite Jay's tale of woe, pulling a Cherokee wing tank is a matter of
> removing some 10-32 structural machine screws and sliding the whole
> thing out (in one piece) out of the wing.

Yeah, other than the last screw not catching a nutplate, it's really
not bad. (If you like Popeye forearms, this is the job for you!) And
it's NOTHING compared to working with a bladder tank, according to my
A&P, a man with 40+ years wrenching.

> The composite Cherokee tip tank is another
> story-I'd rather have a bladder any day of the week.

Thanks goodness I've not had to deal with those, other than
cosmetically. I'll bet a leak is a real SOB to fix.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> My first annual with this airplane is in May.

"Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall
fear no evil..."

:-)

We wrapped ours up today. Buttoned everything back up, and then
started on all the stupid little cosmetic things that drive ya nuts
over time, but don't usually get addressed. So, I spent a few
hours...

....replacing corroded interior screws and washers.
....repainting the flap handle and flap handle housing.
....applying new wing-walk. (Now THERE is a cheap high...)
....fixing the wing root rubber that was gooey from the gas leak
....cleaning exhaust residue off the belly.

Signed, sealed (literally!), and delivered for $1038.00. Not bad at
all, considering all the extra work my A&P on that fuel leak.

Atlas is good for another year -- tomorrow, we go fly!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[dave]

I know. To make it even worse, the only annuals I had with my citabria
were painless so I may be overdue. I am looking forward to taking care
of some small items at the same time. In the mean time, I've got to
invest in a rebuilt starter adapter.
Dave
M35


Jay Honeck wrote:
>> My first annual with this airplane is in May.
>
> "Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall
> fear no evil..."
>
> :-)
>
> We wrapped ours up today. Buttoned everything back up, and then
> started on all the stupid little cosmetic things that drive ya nuts
> over time, but don't usually get addressed. So, I spent a few
> hours...
>
> ...replacing corroded interior screws and washers.
> ...repainting the flap handle and flap handle housing.
> ...applying new wing-walk. (Now THERE is a cheap high...)
> ...fixing the wing root rubber that was gooey from the gas leak
> ...cleaning exhaust residue off the belly.
>
> Signed, sealed (literally!), and delivered for $1038.00. Not bad at
> all, considering all the extra work my A&P on that fuel leak.
>
> Atlas is good for another year -- tomorrow, we go fly!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Newps]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 3/21/2007 3:55:17 PM, "Jim Burns" wrote:
>
>> What's that? Oh it DIDN'T leak! Good for you! You showed those bloody
>> engineers! Ha! Take that!
>
> Man, that is painful to read.
>
The new tanks now a days are very flexible. They won't stand up by
themselves whereas the old one do, they were very stiff. It is not
necessary to make sure the new tanks are warm before rolling them up.
There are no sharp edges to worry about, at least in the Bonanza and I
don't recall any in the 182. It took about 5 minutes to attach the
snaps. All wiring and fuel transmitter is accessed thru the top of the
wing. The Cessna is a bad deal in this respect. The key is to replace
the fuel transmitter screws with bolt head screws.

[Newps]

wrote:

>
> "that would be stupid, why pay the up charge"
>
> Well, let's see. Based purely on personal experience, the life of an
> aftermarket tank is usually about half that of an OEM tank-primarily
> depends on how good of a job the aftermarket boys did in "engineering"
> the new tank.

Ah, no. You'll get 20-30 years from a bladder. The OEM gets their
tanks from the same people the aftermarket comes from.


The other reason might be that there are aftermarket
> Bonanza tanks out there that will NOT fit in the applicable make and
> model of A/C.


I'm only aware of the three aftermarket suppliers. I went with the
cheapest, which is currently FFC. The other two are Eagle and Hartwig.
One of those just buys from FFC and charges about $100 more per tank.
The other, Hartwig if I recall right, was about $500 more.





>
> BTW, why did you charge yourself labor for changing out a bladder?

I didn't say I charged myself labor, only that there's less labor in the
Bo than in the 182.

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Here's a true but all-to-common sad tale of my owner-assisted
> annuals: As I was reinstalling the gas tank (by finger screwing in
> the 3.2 million stainless steel screws that hold it in the wing) all
> was going well -- until the VERY LAST SCREW.

Uh-oh. Before you said you took out 6.3 million screws. There are 3.1
million screws floating around loose somewhere... did you look at your
A&P's biplane to see if he "borrowed" some of your screws? If not you
might have to re-do your weight and balance.

> That one just fell in the hole, and would NOT tighten. This couldn't
> possibly ever happen on the FIRST screw, or even the 20th screw -- it
> HAS to be the last one. So, I had to take them all out, jostle the
> tank a bit, and start over.

This is why you leave everything really loose - like, each screw only
engaged a couple of turns - until you've got all the screws in. You
might pick two screws on opposite sides of the thing and run them all
the way down just to keep the panel basically in place, but then you've
only got two screws to back all the way out if you can't get one started.

It may also be helpful to have a tapered drift handy to get things to
line up - use steel carefully, or brass, aluminum, plastic, or wood if
you're being really careful of the threads. Or, use a little pick or
hook to reach up in the hole and poke the nut plate or Tinnerman nut
into place.

The same thing goes for putting in bolts or putting nuts on studs when
there is more than one. Start them all, then tighten each one a little
at a time. Sometimes the manufacturer will have a recommended order
and torque. If not, doing something like tightening to finger tight or
until the nut or bolt head seats, then to maybe two-thirds of the final
torque, then to the final torque works well. This kind of thing tends
to be associated with "bigger" stuff like engines, so it might not be
the kind of thing you get to do on the plane, but it works just as well
on your car or around the house.

Matt Roberds

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with ground vehicles and in
fixed installations. I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y.
Some of this may not be allowable owner maintenance. Your mileage
may vary.

[Peter R.]

On 3/21/2007 11:10:10 PM, Newps wrote:

> The new tanks now a days are very flexible.

Just for my future reference, what are the signs that a bladder needs
replacing? Rubber chunks in the fuel sampler cup? Fuel stains or an obvious
leak under the wing? Something else?

--
Peter

[dave]

Blue stains under the wings and debris in the fuel sample is what I've
been advised to keep an eye out for. There's a really nice 182 at my
field that was just painted and had a new leather interior installed
shortly before one of the tanks started leaking. Some fuel even got
into the interior. I hope it didn't leave any permanent stains. What a
pity it didn't happen before all the new work was done.

Dave
M35


Peter R. wrote:
> On 3/21/2007 11:10:10 PM, Newps wrote:
>
>> The new tanks now a days are very flexible.
>
> Just for my future reference, what are the signs that a bladder needs
> replacing? Rubber chunks in the fuel sampler cup? Fuel stains or an obvious
> leak under the wing? Something else?
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Uh-oh. Before you said you took out 6.3 million screws. There are 3.1
> million screws floating around loose somewhere... did you look at your
> A&P's biplane to see if he "borrowed" some of your screws? If not you
> might have to re-do your weight and balance.

Dang, you're right! Those were expensive screws, too!

;-)

> This is why you leave everything really loose - like, each screw only
> engaged a couple of turns - until you've got all the screws in.

That's what REALLY ****ed me off -- I did that! I thought I was so
damned smart, just finger-tightening each screw before torquing them
all down -- and that last screw STILL kicked my butt.

Ah well, it's all done, no screws stripped. Another year of flying
ahead!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

We've got a 50 hour recurring AD on the Aztec to look for fuel stains under
the trailing edges of our wings. Keep your bladders full, I understand the
most common failure is around the fill tube where they can dry out
prematurely if not full of fuel.
Jim

[Peter R.]

On 3/22/2007 9:32:41 AM, dave wrote:

> Blue stains under the wings and debris in the fuel sample is what I've
> been advised to keep an eye out for.

Thanks, Jim and Dave.

--
Peter

[Ray Andraka]

Newps wrote:
How do you
> get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?
>


Cherokee tanks don't have bladders. The tank forms a portion of the
leading edge of the wing. It is held in by about 70 screws around the
edge of the tank. After taking out the screws the tank slides forward,
often with the help of a 2x4 place along the rear edge on top of the
spar and a rubber mallet. Assuming the screws haven't corroded into
place, it takes about a half hour to pull an empty tank off a Cherokee.

The tanks do start to leak at the seams sometimes. They can be resealed
by drilling out all the rivets, cleaning up the pieces and putting them
back together with new sealing compound at the seams, which is typically
done by a shop that specializes in rebuilding cherokee tanks.

[Newps]

> Peter R. wrote:
>> On 3/21/2007 11:10:10 PM, Newps wrote:
>>> The new tanks now a days are very flexible.
>>
>> Just for my future reference, what are the signs that a bladder needs
>> replacing? Rubber chunks in the fuel sampler cup? Fuel stains or an
>> obvious
>> leak under the wing? Something else?



I rarely sump my tanks, pretty much only after parking outside
overnight. Look for the blue stain on the underside of the wing
along the wing spar line. Check the fuel vent line thru the inspection
hole, the nipple for the vent line is what broke on my tank causing gas
to leak out every time the bladder was filled. I put up with that for
about 6 months before replacing the tank. Also check the gaskets for
the fuel filler and fuel senders. They can get loose and leak.

[dave]

Why don't you sump your tanks? It's not just water you should be
concerned about. How do you know you're buying clean fuel? I doubt
your FBO would vouch for the cleanliness of the fuel they're selling.

Dave
M35



Newps wrote:
>
>
>
>> Peter R. wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2007 11:10:10 PM, Newps wrote:
>>>> The new tanks now a days are very flexible.
>>>
>>> Just for my future reference, what are the signs that a bladder needs
>>> replacing? Rubber chunks in the fuel sampler cup? Fuel stains or an
>>> obvious
>>> leak under the wing? Something else?
>
>
>
> I rarely sump my tanks, pretty much only after parking outside
> overnight. Look for the blue stain on the underside of the wing
> along the wing spar line. Check the fuel vent line thru the inspection
> hole, the nipple for the vent line is what broke on my tank causing gas
> to leak out every time the bladder was filled. I put up with that for
> about 6 months before replacing the tank. Also check the gaskets for
> the fuel filler and fuel senders. They can get loose and leak.
>

[Mike Spera]

> How do you
> get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?
>

Actually, it ain't bad. You remove the 48 structural screws that make it
a part of the wing (been there, done that to both tanks). If you can
spot the leak and it is one of the "usual" suspects (overflow hose or
sending unit gasket) you are home free. If it is one of the rivets you
have a little longer trip home. Jay was able to get at it and rebuck it
down. Most times, you send the thing out to get completely dismantled,
reriveted back together and sealed. Around $400 per tank.

Mike

[BT]

Jay, Our Annual is about done.. should be able to pick up the Tug tomorrow..
Monday AM to Fri PM.

Biggest hit was $1AMU, for the right side parking brake valve. The 1x1x2inch
box had a crack in the fitting and was seeping fluid at the rate of
requiring a brake top off every 3 months.

We were clean on the Superior AD20070419, and clean on the lift strut
AD99-04-16. I knew we would miss the Superior AD, it is for cylinders
manufactured in 2005. Although we overhauled the O-540 in 2005, we kept our
1999 cylinders.

Just a lot of nit noid clean up work on the fuselage and fabric.

I get to ferry it back home tomorrow evening.. sure is nice to have DST a
few weeks early. No night flying in that beast. About 30 miles direct, but
about 45 miles as I need to fly to get around the Class B.

BT


"BT" > wrote in message
...
> Good reports Jay.. our Pawnee with the O540 just started the annual today
> also.. as it was just rebuilt two years ago, with the 250HP STC up from
> 235HP and fixed pitch prop... all is well so far.. just researching
> AD20070419 to document that it does not apply (Superior Aircraft
> Cylinders) ours are from 1999.
>
> BT
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Although I am starting to resent the whole annual inspection process.
>> More on that in a minute.
>>
>> All compressions on our O-540 are 78 or better out of 80, so that's
>> always a relief. The oil filter was clean (as always), and the exhaust
>> system is sound. Those are three big-ticket items off the list --
>> always a relief.
>>
>> As always, however, the inspection process itself has created some
>> problems. The stupid tail cone must be removed to inspect the
>> stabilator hinges and trim jack screw, which means torquing on
>> nutplates attached to plastic. (Whoever approved THAT **** on a
>> certified plane?)
>>
>> Of course at least one of the nutplates has to twist off the old,
>> brittle plastic, resulting in a repair bill where none was necessary.
>> Same goes for removing the umpteen screws on the access panels. Does
>> a 4" by 6" inspection panel REALLY need 9 easily strippable screws to
>> hold it on? Wouldn't TWO (or 3?) done the job? Stupid.
>>
>> My A&P could only smile and commiserate with me. He says that there
>> is a move afoot to make the "annual" inspection an every-other-year
>> affair, which makes good sense to me. It therefore has no hope of
>> approval.
>>
>> More good news: I unscrewed the 6.3 million stainless steel structural
>> screws to remove the starboard main fuel tank, to search for our fuel
>> leak. (Classified as a "stain" -- not a "seep" -- by my A&P) My
>> forearms are still burning, because I didn't want to risk stripping
>> any of my expensive stainless screws, so I did 'em all by hand.
>>
>> We found a problem right away -- a seeping rivet -- and were able to
>> fix it without resorting to sending the tank out for a complete
>> teardown and overhaul.
>>
>> He used his rivet gun (while I bucked the rivets) to tighten down the
>> whole row of rivets around the offending rivet, and then applied fuel
>> tank sealant to the INSIDE of the tank on that rivet row. In an
>> amazing stroke of luck, that leaking rivet was accessible by reaching
>> through the fuel tank filler -- a one in a hundred chance.
>>
>> Then we found another seeping rivet from under the sealant around the
>> fuel gauge sending unit. That simply required another dab of fuel
>> tank sealant, and (hopefully!) my leaky tank is now history.
>>
>> Tomorrow we start on the interior, which means removing all the seats,
>> and the floor under the back seats. My A&P is eager to get back to
>> working on his P6 Hawk biplane, which is almost ready for its first
>> flight -- so we should be done with my annual in record time!
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> This is why you leave everything really loose - like, each screw only
>> engaged a couple of turns - until you've got all the screws in.
>
> That's what REALLY ****ed me off -- I did that! I thought I was so
> damned smart, just finger-tightening each screw before torquing them
> all down -- and that last screw STILL kicked my butt.

Maybe the screws involved are much shorter than I'm picturing in my
head, but it seems like there ought to be lots of turns between "only a
couple of threads engaged" and "finger tight". If they're countersink
head, finger tight means the countersink on the screw is already
touching the countersink on the panel and constraining the movement of
the panel somewhat. If the screws are long enough, you should be able
to thread them in such that the clearance hole in the panel is still
floating around the shank of the screw.

I did get a little experience in this direction when I helped R&R a
cowl on a 172. The screws on that were countersink head Phillips and
about an inch long overall. I don't know if that's how long they were
supposed to be, but it was pretty easy to get things lined up when
reinstalling. I could engage the screw a couple of turns and go on
to the next one, and still have a little "wiggle room" to get things
to line up. Once I had all the screws started, the owner put the
electric screwdriver on them (carefully) to drive them all the way home.

Matt Roberds

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Mike Spera" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
>> How do you get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?
>>
>
> Actually, it ain't bad. You remove the 48 structural screws that make it a
> part of the wing (been there, done that to both tanks). If you can spot
> the leak and it is one of the "usual" suspects (overflow hose or sending
> unit gasket) you are home free. If it is one of the rivets you have a
> little longer trip home. Jay was able to get at it and rebuck it down.
> Most times, you send the thing out to get completely dismantled, reriveted
> back together and sealed. Around $400 per tank.
>
> Mike

Or.............................You get at it, rebuck it, reinstall
it..........then wait 5 weeks till it starts leaking again. Then you send
it out to be done correctly!

Karl

[[email protected]]

I'd sure rather swap a bladder in a Bonanza than fix a leaking Mooney
tank. Working with very bad chemicals thru a small hole is no fun at
all.

On the Bonanza, doing the snaps in the correct order helps. You can
also snap them from the TOP of the bladder which is much easier than
working
through the fuel cap hole.

Bill Hale



> Despite Jay's tale of woe, pulling a Cherokee wing tank is a matter of
> removing some 10-32 structural machine screws and sliding the whole
> thing out (in one piece) out of the wing. Repairs are just like any
> other "wet-wing" structure, but you have the piece of wing laying on
> the workbench, with ready access to the majority of the rivets.
> Getting the screws out can be a real bitch, but it doesn't involve any
> rivets, snaps or duct tape. The composite Cherokee tip tank is another
> story-I'd rather have a bladder any day of the week.
>
> BTW, why did you charge yourself labor for changing out a bladder?
>
> TC

[David Lesher]

Every time I read one of these 10,000 Phillips screw stories;
I think "Wonder if they could put in Torx instead.."

I helped on a friend on a transmission swap on his BMW 520i. Lots
of Torx. Also needed some trim screws out; guess what they were...and
which was the real PITA.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Gig 601XL Builder]

David Lesher wrote:
> Every time I read one of these 10,000 Phillips screw stories;
> I think "Wonder if they could put in Torx instead.."
>
> I helped on a friend on a transmission swap on his BMW 520i. Lots
> of Torx. Also needed some trim screws out; guess what they were...and
> which was the real PITA.

I'm using Torx on the plane I'm building in several access panel locations.

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 23 Mar 2007 10:12:18 -0700, "
> wrote:

>
>I'd sure rather swap a bladder in a Bonanza than fix a leaking Mooney
>tank. Working with very bad chemicals thru a small hole is no fun at
>all.
>
>On the Bonanza, doing the snaps in the correct order helps. You can
>also snap them from the TOP of the bladder which is much easier than
>working
>through the fuel cap hole.
>

BTDT (Bonanza and Mooney). The chemicals aren't bad IMHO, it's the
initial eval and clean-up and figuring out where to put the chemicals.

Don't get the wrong impression, installing a new OEM bladder is a
pretty normal maintenance task - less cleaning out all the old tape
and residue, banging down any rivets or sheet metal edges and
re-taping.

The problem is in installing certain aftermarket tanks and pretty much
any repaired/refurbed tank.

I'm 6' 3"/210# and am allegedly usually the guy that can reach (or
gets stuck reaching) the hard-to-reach snaps. Bo' and Baron bays
aren't bad. But it ain't as easy as yanking a wing tank out of a
Cherokee.

TC

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm using Torx on the plane I'm building in several access panel locations.

That is SO smart.

Is it illegal to subsitute Torx (or square-drive) screws in
certificated aircraft? If so, why?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Yesterday I found evidence of a larger leak than the ones we had
> fixed in the main tank, which were obviously just seeps.

You didn't pressure test the tank when you had it out?

> As you may recall, the first evidence of our leak (other than a faint
> odor in the cabin when you first opened the door) was when Mary
> spotted the rubber wing-root seal hanging down, fattened and gooey
> from gas exposure.

Isn't "fattened and gooey" a symptom of using autofuel?

> So, while I was under the plane cleaning out the central drain filter
> (the 235 has a central "pee-drain" in the belly, like the Cherokee 6),
> I carefully tracked down every stain. With the wing-root inspection
> fairings removed, and a mirror, I was able to spot a tip-tank hose
> fitting that showed evidence of leakage.
> My A&P proceeded to dislocate both his wrists getting a couple of
> wrenches on that fitting, and was rewarded with an easy 1/3 turn to
> make it tight. He is of the opinion that this was our main culprit,
> and that by tightening that fitting we have resolved the last of the
> fuel issues.

The fitting tightness wasn't checked as part of the inspection process?
{Was this one of the items the owner was supposed to check? :-) }

[RST Engineering]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I'm using Torx on the plane I'm building in several access panel
>> locations.
>
> That is SO smart.
>
> Is it illegal to subsitute Torx (or square-drive) screws in
> certificated aircraft? If so, why?

Nope.

Jim

[RST Engineering]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> You didn't pressure test the tank when you had it out?

He never said he had the tank out.

>
> Isn't "fattened and gooey" a symptom of using autofuel?

No, it is a symptom of exposing a material not intended for use with
hydrocarbons to gasoline of any formulation.


>
> The fitting tightness wasn't checked as part of the inspection process?
> {Was this one of the items the owner was supposed to check? :-) }

No, nor should it have been. Checking the torque of every fastener and
fitting is not part of the inspection process.

Jim

[Jay Honeck]

> > Is it illegal to subsitute Torx (or square-drive) screws in
> > certificated aircraft? If so, why?
>
> Nope.

Okay, that said, why is it that everyone (that I've seen, anyway)
continues to use the (too easily strippable) Phillips screws?

Inertia? Cost? No one has thought of it? No one else cares, cuz
their A&Ps do all the work?

It just seems so bloody obvious, yet I've never seen a certificated
plane with anything but Phillips screws.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Scott Skylane]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>Is it illegal to subsitute Torx (or square-drive) screws in
>>>certificated aircraft? If so, why?
>>
>>Nope.
>
>
> Okay, that said, why is it that everyone (that I've seen, anyway)
> continues to use the (too easily strippable) Phillips screws?
>
> Inertia? Cost? No one has thought of it? No one else cares, cuz
> their A&Ps do all the work?
>
> It just seems so bloody obvious, yet I've never seen a certificated
> plane with anything but Phillips screws.

Jay,

I'm not sure if MilSpec Torx screws are readily available. I wouldn't
have a problem using N(ational)A(erospace)P(arts)A(ssociation) torx
screws on non-structural parts, but for the important bits, e.g. fuel
tanks and stressed skins, I just have never seen anything that would
qualify. I've been out of the maintenance arena for a few years,
though, maybe they are starting to show up?

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[RST Engineering]

Probably because no "airplane parts store" (including the highly respected
discounter o'them all, Chief) carries anything but Phillips.

Now that you've put the bug in my ear, I'm gonna order a bag of a hundred
each of the flatheads I use on the inspection plates and the pan
heads/flatheads that hold on the cowling. These two are the primary
offenders on The Manly HighWing 182. I'll be glad to order some for you if
you tell me the thread and the length. A point or B point? Stainless or
alloy? I don't go through the NAPA airplane store, but through an
industrial supply company that DOES have traceable parts.

I'm gonna replace stainless with stainless. They are a BIT harder and don't
rust up quite as bad. Stainless to speednut has never been a problem
insofar as I know.

Jim


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> > Is it illegal to subsitute Torx (or square-drive) screws in
>> > certificated aircraft? If so, why?
>>
>> Nope.
>
> Okay, that said, why is it that everyone (that I've seen, anyway)
> continues to use the (too easily strippable) Phillips screws?
>
> Inertia? Cost? No one has thought of it? No one else cares, cuz
> their A&Ps do all the work?
>
> It just seems so bloody obvious, yet I've never seen a certificated
> plane with anything but Phillips screws.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Now that you've put the bug in my ear, I'm gonna order a bag of a hundred
> each of the flatheads I use on the inspection plates and the pan
> heads/flatheads that hold on the cowling. These two are the primary
> offenders on The Manly HighWing 182. I'll be glad to order some for you if
> you tell me the thread and the length. A point or B point? Stainless or
> alloy? I don't go through the NAPA airplane store, but through an
> industrial supply company that DOES have traceable parts.

Thanks, but I'm (hopefully) done with "screwing around" (sorry!) with
the access panels on my plane for another year. I'll look into it in
March '08, however.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Okay, that said, why is it that everyone (that I've seen, anyway)
> continues to use the (too easily strippable) Phillips screws?

The one problem I've run into with internal Torx screws (on cars) is
that if there is even a little bit of crud in the recess in the screw
head, the correct-size bit doesn't want to fit and the next size smaller
bit will feel like it fits just fine. If the screw is holding down a
piece of trim you can get away with it. If there's a lot of torque on
it, the too-small bit will strip out and maybe damage some of the lobes
on the screw head. The two ways around this are 1) make sure the screw
head is clean and 2) if you're not sure what bit a Torx screw takes,
once you've found one that seems to fit, get the next bigger one and
make a good effort to fit it in the screw head - don't use a hammer,
but do more than just hold it near the screw head and look at it.

> Inertia?

Yep.

> Cost?

Yep. I think any patents on Phillips had run out long before any
patents on Torx. On the other hand, you'd think if anybody would use
Torx, Cessna would, because at one point or another they are/were both
part of the same conglomerate, Textron.

> No one has thought of it?

Nope. There is nothing new under the sun.

> No one else cares, cuz their A&Ps do all the work?

Maybe some of that. I think your "average" GA pilot probably _knows_
more about turning wrenches than your "average" car driver, but that
doesn't mean they actually turn the wrenches themselves.

You might care more than the "average" because you're probably used to
doing maintenance things around the hotel, where you have a lot of
discretion on changing the design. If the nail keeps pulling out, use
a wood screw. If the wood screw keeps stripping out, use a bolt and a
nut. No paperwork, just your own judgement and "try it and see".

One factor may be support. Every A&P is guaranteed to have regular
and Phillips screwdrivers and bits. Torx may be common enough now
that the bits are in all the tool chests as well, but maybe not. If
you put a lot of Torx screws on your plane, it might be cheap and
light insurance to carry a set of Torx bits.

Personally, I think good-quality Allen (internal hex) screws are the
One True Screw[tm]. The drive tool doesn't slip out. They are older,
so the bits/drivers for them are more common. They are second only to
slotted screws in their ability to accept improvised drive tools - this
is a feature if you're trying to fix something while stranded at East
Armadillo Toe International Airport and a bug if you're the _next_ guy
to have to touch that fastener.

Matt Roberds

[Mike Spera]

> Probably because no "airplane parts store" (including the highly respected
> discounter o'them all, Chief) carries anything but Phillips.
> .stuff snipped
>
> I'm gonna replace stainless with stainless. They are a BIT harder and don't
> rust up quite as bad. Stainless to speednut has never been a problem
> insofar as I know.
>
> .other stuff snipped

Now that we have broached the subject, where do you find stainless
threaded speed nuts. There are a pile of them used on Cherokees to hold
on the wing/stabilator tips (8-32 I believe). I have never been able to
get a source.

Anyone?

Thanks,
Mike

[Steve C]

My airplane (Diamond DA 40) uses stainless hex head cap screws for all
of the access plates and external fasteners. The only issue is that
they are metric, but Diamond was nice enough to include a set of
extras with the airplane. They are real easy to R&R, just had to get a
3mm hex bit for my electric screwdriver.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I'm using Torx on the plane I'm building in several access panel
>> locations.
>
> That is SO smart.
>
> Is it illegal to subsitute Torx (or square-drive) screws in
> certificated aircraft? If so, why?

I doubt it. And please note that I'm only using them in non-strucural areas
with one exception. The top skin between the panel (which is a bulkhead in
my plane) and the firewall. This will allow me total access behind the
panel. Also remember that the design here is for blind rivets. And the
designer gave his blessing to the modification. There are going to be about
60 of the little buggers in there.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mike Spera wrote:
>> Probably because no "airplane parts store" (including the highly
>> respected discounter o'them all, Chief) carries anything but
>> Phillips. .stuff snipped
>>
>> I'm gonna replace stainless with stainless. They are a BIT harder
>> and don't rust up quite as bad. Stainless to speednut has never
>> been a problem insofar as I know.
>>
>> .other stuff snipped
>
> Now that we have broached the subject, where do you find stainless
> threaded speed nuts. There are a pile of them used on Cherokees to
> hold on the wing/stabilator tips (8-32 I believe). I have never been
> able to get a source.
>
> Anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike

If one of these places don't have them they probably don't exsist.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/

http://www.mcmaster.com/ (Not Aircraft but great none the less)