Cost of ownership????

[Lou]

I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
Lou

[Jay Honeck]

> Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?

I know there are guys here who have just the spreadsheet you're
looking for, but I've found that I'm much happier when I don't analyze
it too closely.

You can really keep your costs down by doing most of your regular
maintenance yourself. Oil changes, etc, can all be done by the owner,
and that really adds up over time.

When you want to know how much money it costs to feed an airplane,
just figure "all of it", and you'll be close to right...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blanche]

Lou -- there are fixed costs (hangar, insurance, mortgage if needed)
and variable costs. The fixed costs are easy. The variable are not.

Variable:
fuel & oil
repairs, maintenance,improvements
ADs
Unexpected and surprising costs!

And, as Jay points out, you can do a fair amount of work (Preventive
Maintenance, as per the FAA) yourself. But then you need to make sure
you have tools and equipment to do this. More costs.

On the other hand, if you really total up and make realistic estimates
of a budget, you'll probably decide not to buy an airplane.

*sigh*

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

AOPA has a couple worksheets on their ownership/partnership page.
Just yesterday I figured our ownership & operating costs for the Aztec over
the past 2.5 years.
I didn't hit the floor too hard.
Jim


"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> Lou
>

[Marco Leon]

I have one. I'll send it to your hotmail address.

Marco

"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> Lou
>

[Tim]

Lou wrote:
> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> Lou
>


"If you have to ask..."

It costs a lot. The airshares program seems to be reasonably set up.
At first glance it seems expensive though. They did the work for
you/everyone. Check out their pricing. If you can't afford at least a
third to half of that program, you probably have to walk away or find
more co-owners.

http://www.airshareselite.com/airportsServed/documents/asma_NY_SR22_ProgramDescription.pdf

It is a commitment to own a plane.

I would not trade it for the world. Good to see you are doing your
homework.

[Ross]

Lou wrote:

> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> Lou
>

Ownership is cheap, maintaining one is expensive. I used to keep a
spread sheet of my budget and expensive. I quit after a couple of years.
If my balance got too low I knew I was getting in trouble. I didn't need
to know the details.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Lou]

Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
Lou

[Jon Kraus]

Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
don't have much experience but here is what I found.

For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.

Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the
last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
could have been cheaper.

Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
will probably take a break from flying all together.

Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.

Jon Kraus



Lou wrote:
> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> Lou
>

[Ross]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Lou,
>
> It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
> is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
> hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).
>
> I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
> don't have much experience but here is what I found.
>
> For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
> to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
> note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
> ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
> some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.
>
> Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the
> last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
> for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
> could have been cheaper.
>
> Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
> want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
> partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
> will probably take a break from flying all together.
>
> Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
> more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.
>
> Jon Kraus
>
>
>
> Lou wrote:
>
>> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
>> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
>> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
>> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
>> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
>> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
>> Lou
>>

Jon is correct and this goes for motor homes, boats, and any big ticket
item. It is better to rent than own. However, on that day after two
weeks of lousy weather, YOU can go to the hangar and pull out YOUR
airplane and not be told by the FBO that all the planes are out til
9:00PM tonight.

I have had my Skyhawk for 10 years and I paid cash and it is a cheaper
plane than a Mooney, but this is all relative to you disposable cash. I
do owner assisted annuals and that saves. I did have to change out the
O-360 4 years ago and had to get a loan for that (no reserve planning).

My kids are out of college and on their own and I have no college
expenses from that. House is almost paid for and we both work. However,
I am getting close to retirement and my thinking may change. I may try
to get a partner or just sell. What I need is a workaholic partner that
pays the money but does not have time to fly.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Ben Jackson]

On 2007-03-21, Lou > wrote:
> I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this

I even put it on the web:

http://www.ben.com/flying/costown.html

mmm, fuel is actually DOWN since I last updated it!

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 21, 1:42 pm, Jon Kraus > wrote:
> Lou,
>
> It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
> is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
> hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).
>
> I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
> don't have much experience but here is what I found.
>
> For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
> to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
> note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
> ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
> some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.
>
> Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the
> last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
> for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
> could have been cheaper.
>
> Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
> want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
> partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
> will probably take a break from flying all together.
>
> Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
> more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.
>
> Jon Kraus
>
>
>
> Lou wrote:
> > I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> > up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> > information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> > the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> > download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> > here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> > Lou- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Its true that owning almost always costs more than renting. However,
the benefit of owning is having a plane set up the way you want it.
There are a lot of reasons to own a plane but none of them are
financial.
-Robert

[[email protected][_1_]]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:25:47 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:

>AOPA has a couple worksheets on their ownership/partnership page.
>Just yesterday I figured our ownership & operating costs for the Aztec over
>the past 2.5 years.
>I didn't hit the floor too hard.
>Jim

snip

Usually when a prospective owner talks to me about how much it costs
to own/fly, I tell them to go to the bank, get $500 ($1000 for a twin)
in $20's and come back out to the hangar some day when the wind is
calm.

I tell them that if they cannot make a nice little bonfire on the ramp
out of the cash, turn and walk away with a smile on their face and no
regrets, in my opinion they are not truly ready for the costs of
owning a tyoe-certificated airplane.

The funny part is that most of them think I'm kidding...

TC

[Tim]

wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:25:47 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>AOPA has a couple worksheets on their ownership/partnership page.
>>Just yesterday I figured our ownership & operating costs for the Aztec over
>>the past 2.5 years.
>>I didn't hit the floor too hard.
>>Jim
>
>
> snip
>
> Usually when a prospective owner talks to me about how much it costs
> to own/fly, I tell them to go to the bank, get $500 ($1000 for a twin)
> in $20's and come back out to the hangar some day when the wind is
> calm.
>
> I tell them that if they cannot make a nice little bonfire on the ramp
> out of the cash, turn and walk away with a smile on their face and no
> regrets, in my opinion they are not truly ready for the costs of
> owning a tyoe-certificated airplane.
>
> The funny part is that most of them think I'm kidding...
>
> TC


That's funny. I came to a similar conclusion. I could just as easily
throw $10 or $20 out the window every day of the year and be about even
for the year. That does not include the fuel.

I was appalled at the airshares offer I received in the mail. I was
going to talk to the rep about how ridiculously they priced their rates.
Then I started evaluating how much it REALLY costs me to own/operate
my own plane... Well, airshares started looking A LOT better.

I stopped tracking my costs. HEad in the sand for now with me.

[skym]

On Mar 21, 7:20 am, "Lou" > wrote:
> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
> Lou


With apologies to Jack Nicholson: "I can't handle the truth!"

[RST Engineering]

There are very few absolute truisms in life. I believe I know two of them:

1. If it flies, floats, or fornicates it is far cheaper to rent.

2. If it has tires, tits, or testicles it will eventually give you trouble.


Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.

You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
getting there. Same with most of life.

Depending on whether you are a low wing wimp or a high wing manly guy, you
can start off with a Tripacer (Piper's Milkstool) and work your way up
through the ranks over the years to what you can afford. You may have the
milkstool your whole career. That's the way it goes. Same with a 150 (or a
120/140 if you are a tailwheel kinda guy) and work your way up through the
170/172 series.

Yeah, after 40 years of the 120-170-172 gig I've got a 182. It keeps me on
the edge of poverty, but it is what I can afford. Do I drool at 210s?
Sure. But I didn't jump into a Citation while the ink was still wet on my
private.

Jim



"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Lou,
>
> It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership is
> EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200 hours
> a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 22, 9:26 am, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.
>
> You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
> your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
> minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
> getting there.

And you get to log more time.
-Robert

[Lou]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm looking at a Grumman yankee. It's
affordable, quick enough
for a first plane, and the reason for the partner is purely cost. I
know I don't fly everyday, and there
is plenty of time to share an airplane.
Lou

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 22, 10:14 am, "Lou" > wrote:
> Thanks for the advice guys, I'm looking at a Grumman yankee. It's
> affordable, quick enough
> for a first plane, and the reason for the partner is purely cost. I
> know I don't fly everyday, and there
> is plenty of time to share an airplane.
> Lou

A partnership is a great way to own a plane. The hard part is getting
a partner with similar opinions on things such as upgrades,
maintenance, etc. Many times I've agreed to pay for 1/2 of something I
really didn't care to get but do it for the good of the partnership.
For me, the biggest reason to be in a partnership isn't cost but
rather usage. Flying a plane 50 hours a year is really hard on the
plane, hard on the engine, etc. Planes need to be flying and having a
partner can keep the plane in the air.

-Robret

[FLAV8R]

"Tim" wrote in message...
> "If you have to ask..."
>
> It costs a lot. The airshares program seems to be reasonably set up. At
> first glance it seems expensive though. They did the work for
> you/everyone. Check out their pricing. If you can't afford at least a
> third to half of that program, you probably have to walk away or find more
> co-owners.
>
> http://www.airshareselite.com/airportsServed/documents/asma_NY_SR22_ProgramDescription.pdf
>
> It is a commitment to own a plane.
>

Wow! If I did my homework correctly, it would cost over 70k for the first
year to fly for only 100 hours.
Comparing that to my average rental cost of a new C182 with G1000 I would be
able to fly over
600 hours in that same year.

I guess I'll wait till I win the lottery.

David

[Tim]

Lou wrote:
> Thanks for the advice guys, I'm looking at a Grumman yankee. It's
> affordable, quick enough
> for a first plane, and the reason for the partner is purely cost. I
> know I don't fly everyday, and there
> is plenty of time to share an airplane.
> Lou
>


Great planes - I have a 4 seat grumman. You won't be disappointed with
the model.

[Marco Leon]

You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what it was
telling me. :)


"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
> Lou
>

[xyzzy]

On Mar 21, 5:42 pm, Ben Jackson > wrote:
> On 2007-03-21, Lou > wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> > the numbers into. Has anyone either made this
>
> I even put it on the web:
>
> http://www.ben.com/flying/costown.html
>
> mmm, fuel is actually DOWN since I last updated it!

Nice work. I played with it and it looked exciting (hmm, I think I can
fly 80 hours if I have to to break even) then I saw that there was no
place to plug in the costs of the aircraft loan. Depressing to know
that even if someone GAVE me a plane I would have to fly 80 hours to
do better than my club. Sigh. Off to buy more lotto tickets.

[Ben Jackson]

On 2007-03-23, xyzzy > wrote:
>
> Nice work. I played with it and it looked exciting (hmm, I think I can
> fly 80 hours if I have to to break even) then I saw that there was no
> place to plug in the costs of the aircraft loan.

You could throw the interest in on one of the monthly or annual
expenses. The value of the airplane itself is largely recoverable,
it's just not very liquid. The spreadsheet does cover wear and tear
costs like engine reserve.

Perhaps someone else can make a spreadsheet that covers all the
variations in aircraft financing.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Marco Leon wrote:
> You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what it
> was telling me. :)
>
>
> "Lou" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
>> Lou

I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers based on
601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year. That makes me very
happy.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Marco Leon wrote:
>> You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what it
>> was telling me. :)
>>
>>
>> "Lou" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
>>> Lou
>
> I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers based
> on 601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year. That makes me
> very happy.
Do you use yours for business at all?

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Using that work sheet, our Aztec initially comes in at $10 more per hour
than our actual operating costs incurred over 475 hours and 2 1/2 years.
However, the worksheet does not account for maintenance between annual
inspections, which in our case, amounts to $29 per hour flown. If I add $29
per hour flown to the annual cost the worksheet shows our Total per hour is
$10 less than actual. It's amazingly close either way and we break even vs.
renting at 68 hours per year.
Jim


"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Marco Leon wrote:
> > You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what it
> > was telling me. :)
> >
> >
> > "Lou" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
> >> Lou
>
> I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers based
on
> 601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year. That makes me very
> happy.
>
>

[M[_1_]]

On Mar 21, 6:20 am, "Lou" > wrote:
> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
> the numbers into.

Forget the spreadsheet. The single most important thing you should do
as an owner is to fly a lot. 150+ hr a year. 200+ hr is even
better. Do that for a few years, and if your funds is getting low,
sell the plane and you can say to youself that you had owned a plane
once, flew to many interesting places, and it didn't cost you more
than renting, and you were able to make trips that a renter won't be
able to do. Mortgage your house if you have to, but you *must* keep
flying a lot of hours a year as long as you own it. It's worth it.

The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
sadder than that.

[Mike Spera]

>
> The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
> eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
> the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
> sadder than that.
>
A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.

In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it. Those
using spreadsheets and trying to calculate this down to the dime may
want to consider that airplanes don't require cash according to a
schedule. If you don't have $5k - $10k laying around at all times (and
not in the form of a loan), you are going to have a tough time making
ownership work out.

Airplane ownership is NOT like a car or boat. You are not an owner, but
a temporary steward of an increasingly rare object. I consider it my
responsibility to keep an airplane in good shape (repairs, upgrades,
etc.). Many people (especially in my home America) have a hard time with
this concept. They are accustomed to buying things and then throwing
them away when they become old or inconvenient.

Good luck,
Mike

[Tim]

FLAV8R wrote:
> "Tim" wrote in message...
>
>>"If you have to ask..."
>>
>>It costs a lot. The airshares program seems to be reasonably set up. At
>>first glance it seems expensive though. They did the work for
>>you/everyone. Check out their pricing. If you can't afford at least a
>>third to half of that program, you probably have to walk away or find more
>>co-owners.
>>
>>http://www.airshareselite.com/airportsServed/documents/asma_NY_SR22_ProgramDescription.pdf
>>
>>It is a commitment to own a plane.
>>
>
>
> Wow! If I did my homework correctly, it would cost over 70k for the first
> year to fly for only 100 hours.
> Comparing that to my average rental cost of a new C182 with G1000 I would be
> able to fly over
> 600 hours in that same year.
>
> I guess I'll wait till I win the lottery.
>
> David
>
>


Perhaps - but the availability is the big factor - and no one I know
rents for a weekend or a week at a time - it is cost prohibitive.
Owning and sharing is a good option if you want the availability and
long rental times. otherwise it is not worth it.

[M[_1_]]

On Mar 25, 5:56 am, Mike Spera > wrote:
>
> A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
> cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
> and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
> selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.

Well, nobody is forced to pay a ridiculous price for a run out plane.
The seller can ask all he wants, but the buyer can simply go somewhere
else. Eventually the market will take care of the price.

> I consider it my
> responsibility to keep an airplane in good shape (repairs, upgrades,
> etc.). Many people (especially in my home America) have a hard time with
> this concept.

Repairs, absolutely. Upgrades? I'd rather see owners skip that
GNS430 install and use that money to fly across the country three
times and visiting places. Of course it would be nice to do both, but
most people had to choose one vs. another. A lot of owners chose to
be a curator instead of an aviator.

The problem with GA isn't people not taking care of old planes. It's
people not flying enough. Unless your plane is a P-51, I don't see
anything wrong with old plane gets used up and eventually goes to
junkyard if it's used up for good reasons, like 20,000 hr on the wing
spar. The problem with GA isn't people not taking care of old
planes. It's people not flying nearly enough. If GA flying hour is
10x of today and all the old planes get used up in about 10 years,
we'll have a much healthier GA industry and the new planes are likely
to be less than half of what they cost today because of the large
volume production.

[Lou]

On Mar 25, 6:56 am, Mike Spera > wrote:
> > The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
> > eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
> > the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
> > sadder than that.
>
> A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
> cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
> and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
> selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.
>
> In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it.

> Good luck,
> Mike

I've allways loved to hear that line. It makes me think of all the
people who buy a house and end up
in bankruptcy. I suppose these are the same people who didn't ask
either. Unless you have milions comming
out your ass, what kind of person wouldn't find out ahead of time what
the entire cost of somthing is ahead of
time? After all, who is dumb enough believe that they are just going
to make the payments without getting the maitenance cost? Oh thats
right, the person who didn't ask. It seems to me, if you have to ask,
your smart enough
to own it, not dumb enough to buy it and not be able to take care of
it. Plane or otherwise.
Lou

[Mike Noel]

What kept me from buying at first was the idea that if I didn't fly at least
100+ hours a year, owning didn't make sense. I never flew 100+ hours a year
as a renter because paying the hourly rates discouraged me from using the
plane for anything other than local flights. Once I OWNED the plane, the
100+ hours per year came naturally because it became a hobby and a social
thing, flying with the guys out to breakfast every weekend and taking long
flights occasionally to visit relatives, go to Osh etc.
If you love to fly you practically owe it to yourself to own a plane. You
just need a plane and a plan that fits your budget, whether it's a simple
one shared with someone else or a complex one exclusively yours.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.

"M" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 21, 6:20 am, "Lou" > wrote:
>> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
>> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
>> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
>> the numbers into.
>
> Forget the spreadsheet. The single most important thing you should do
> as an owner is to fly a lot. 150+ hr a year. 200+ hr is even
> better. Do that for a few years, and if your funds is getting low,
> sell the plane and you can say to youself that you had owned a plane
> once, flew to many interesting places, and it didn't cost you more
> than renting, and you were able to make trips that a renter won't be
> able to do. Mortgage your house if you have to, but you *must* keep
> flying a lot of hours a year as long as you own it. It's worth it.
>
> The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
> eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
> the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
> sadder than that.
>

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:35:46 GMT, wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:25:47 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:
>
>>AOPA has a couple worksheets on their ownership/partnership page.
>>Just yesterday I figured our ownership & operating costs for the Aztec over
>>the past 2.5 years.
>>I didn't hit the floor too hard.
>>Jim
>
Anolder Bonanza should run about $12K per year if you fly a lot of if
you don't fly much at all. I figure the Aztec would be about twice
that.

>snip
>
>Usually when a prospective owner talks to me about how much it costs
>to own/fly, I tell them to go to the bank, get $500 ($1000 for a twin)
>in $20's and come back out to the hangar some day when the wind is
>calm.
>
>I tell them that if they cannot make a nice little bonfire on the ramp
>out of the cash, turn and walk away with a smile on their face and no
>regrets, in my opinion they are not truly ready for the costs of
>owning a tyoe-certificated airplane.
>
>The funny part is that most of them think I'm kidding...
>
>TC
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:17:11 -0400, "FLAV8R" >
wrote:

>"Tim" wrote in message...
>> "If you have to ask..."
>>
>> It costs a lot. The airshares program seems to be reasonably set up. At
>> first glance it seems expensive though. They did the work for
>> you/everyone. Check out their pricing. If you can't afford at least a
>> third to half of that program, you probably have to walk away or find more
>> co-owners.
>>
>> http://www.airshareselite.com/airportsServed/documents/asma_NY_SR22_ProgramDescription.pdf
>>
>> It is a commitment to own a plane.
>>
>
>Wow! If I did my homework correctly, it would cost over 70k for the first
>year to fly for only 100 hours.

Buy an older Bonanza and you can fly it for about 6 years for that.
Around there that wold cover all costs, fixed and variable.

>Comparing that to my average rental cost of a new C182 with G1000 I would be
>able to fly over
>600 hours in that same year.

At 130 hours a year the Deb runs about $85 to $95/hr with today's gas
prices. A some what newer F33 might be a bit less expensive to run
per hour due to maintenance but would cost more up front. You should
get back the cost of the airplane later on.

The SR22 is expensive and the insurance is quite high. Local couple
were paying about $9,000 for insurance. They are now on their second
plane as they put over 700 hours on the first one the first year. They
should have about a year on the second one so I don't know what their
costs would be now.

I looked into the airshares program and iy appeared I could operate a
new A36 for less than it would have cost me to stay in that program. >
>I guess I'll wait till I win the lottery.
>
>David
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:42:12 -0400, Jon Kraus >
wrote:

>Lou,
>
>It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
>is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
>hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).
>
>I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
>don't have much experience but here is what I found.
>
>For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
>to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
>note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
>ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
>some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.
>
>Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the

How many hours are you putting on that thing?
flying over a 130 hours a year my annuals averaged about $500 to $600
with one being close to $5000 due to a bunch of ADs all coming due the
same time as well as the heater crapping out, a flame cone giveing out
and some other things.

Prior tot he cost of gas going up I was runing about $76 or so an
hour. Gas has gone up less than a dollar a gallon here, but at a one
dollar increase that'd be $90 per hour. That cost includes everything
including annuals and $10 toward a major which is getting close. I
may have to raise that to $15 toward the major. BTW that also includes
over $8,000 fo a new 3-blade hartzel prop exchange and labor.

>last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
>for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
>could have been cheaper.

I run a progressive maintenance program which is probably why the
annuals have been relatively inexpensive.

>
>Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
>want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
>partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
>will probably take a break from flying all together.
>
>Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
>more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.

That I don't believe, but it depends on how much you fly. At 100
hours a year it's cheaper for me to own the Deb than rent a 172 around
here.The Deb is paid for but I do not take any credit toward what I
might get out of it some day. That means when I do sell it I can
average that over the hours I've flown and deduct that from the cost
per hour.

>
>Jon Kraus
>
>
>
>Lou wrote:
>> I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
>> up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
>> information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
>> the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
>> download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
>> here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
>> Lou
>>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:26:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>There are very few absolute truisms in life. I believe I know two of them:
>
>1. If it flies, floats, or fornicates it is far cheaper to rent.
>
>2. If it has tires, tits, or testicles it will eventually give you trouble.
>
>
>Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
>airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
>the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
>but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.
>
>You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
>your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
>minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
>getting there. Same with most of life.

Just as a addition to this part. A 172 Hawk XP and I took off from
3BS at the same time It's 50 nauticle miles to HTL from here. I had
just turned off the runway when he called into the pattern. So, unless
it's long distances it matters little whether you are traveling at 200
MPH or 130 and if we go that far it should make little additional
difference if only traveling 100.

>
>Depending on whether you are a low wing wimp or a high wing manly guy, you
>can start off with a Tripacer (Piper's Milkstool) and work your way up

Kinds fancy there. I started in a Colt.

>through the ranks over the years to what you can afford. You may have the
>milkstool your whole career. That's the way it goes. Same with a 150 (or a
>120/140 if you are a tailwheel kinda guy) and work your way up through the
>170/172 series.

For a two passenger I'd just as soon have a cub although they do get a
bit chilly up here in the winter.

>
>Yeah, after 40 years of the 120-170-172 gig I've got a 182. It keeps me on
>the edge of poverty, but it is what I can afford. Do I drool at 210s?
>Sure. But I didn't jump into a Citation while the ink was still wet on my
>private.

There's a reason I'm flying a 47 year old Beech instead of a 20 year
old.


>
>Jim
>
>
>
>"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
>> Lou,
>>
>> It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership is
>> EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200 hours
>> a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:56:23 GMT, Mike Spera >
wrote:

>
>>
>> The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
>> eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
>> the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
>> sadder than that.
>>
>A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
>cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
>and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
>selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.
>
>In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it. Those
>using spreadsheets and trying to calculate this down to the dime may
>want to consider that airplanes don't require cash according to a
>schedule. If you don't have $5k - $10k laying around at all times (and
>not in the form of a loan), you are going to have a tough time making
>ownership work out.
>

Most airplanes will develop an average or ball park figure for a
particular make and model for the cost per hour against the number of
hours flown per year. OTOH there is no guarantee that any single
airplane of the same make and model flown the same hours per year will
come any where near that figure. I could easily go out and even with
a good pre buy inspection end up with one that cost double the average
figure, or I *MIGHT* get one that is considerably cheaper and I have
to emphasize the odds against that.

>Airplane ownership is NOT like a car or boat. You are not an owner, but
>a temporary steward of an increasingly rare object. I consider it my

I think the same way about my cars, cameras, radios, and other objects
I own.

>responsibility to keep an airplane in good shape (repairs, upgrades,
>etc.). Many people (especially in my home America) have a hard time with

Upgrades are something else. If you own an old airplane it may be
worth more in the original condition than upgraded.

Even though the Deb has been heavily modified I've had two museums
want the thing. They are willing to give me one whale of a deduction,
but I don't need deductions, I need cash. Besides it's the only
airplane I've owned outright and I've kinda developed an attachment to
it and really don't want to part with it. For me to sell it some one
would have to want it a lot worse than I do and I seriously doubt
that's going to happen, so yes, I did purchase my lottery ticket for
tomorrow night.


>this concept. They are accustomed to buying things and then throwing
>them away when they become old or inconvenient.
>
>Good luck,
>Mike
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> Marco Leon wrote:
>>> You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what
>>> it was telling me. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> "Lou" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>>> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
>>>> Lou
>>
>> I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers
>> based on 601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year.
>> That makes me very happy.
> Do you use yours for business at all?

Yes, I'll be using it to travel for business some.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mike Spera wrote:
> In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it.

You know I always hated this answer. Those that aren't in the habit of
examining the costs of things they purchase are seldom ever going to be in
the position to purchase an aircraft.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Marco Leon wrote:
>>>> You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what
>>>> it was telling me. :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Lou" > wrote in message
>>>> oups.com...
>>>>> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
>>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers
>>> based on 601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year.
>>> That makes me very happy.
>> Do you use yours for business at all?
>
> Yes, I'll be using it to travel for business some.
Are you allocating something, cost-wise, for your labor during the building
process?

[Marco Leon]

"Lou" > wrote in message news:
> I've allways loved to hear that line. It makes me think of all the
> people who buy a house and end up
> in bankruptcy. I suppose these are the same people who didn't ask
> either. Unless you have milions comming
> out your ass, what kind of person wouldn't find out ahead of time what
> the entire cost of somthing is ahead of
> time? After all, who is dumb enough believe that they are just going
> to make the payments without getting the maitenance cost? Oh thats
> right, the person who didn't ask. It seems to me, if you have to ask,
> your smart enough
> to own it, not dumb enough to buy it and not be able to take care of
> it. Plane or otherwise.

Lou's right. Owners may not be able to predict every dime they will spend
but they need to do at least a general assessment of the financial
requirements. Every book on ownership [rightly] says to do this. I remember
seriously thinking about getting a Lake Amphibian as my first airplane
because of visions of landing on the lake at my folks' house. I didn't have
to crunch too many numbers to get that idea outa my head.

Now I use my spreadsheet to plan for a possible upgrade in airframes. With
requirement of six seats, I know the approximate costs in buying and
maintaining a Saratoga or an 36-series Bonanza. I don't know when I'll be
able to jump into it, but at least I can be sure I won't jump into it too
early.

Marco

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> Matt Barrow wrote:
>>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Marco Leon wrote:
>>>>> You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what
>>>>> it was telling me. :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Lou" > wrote in message
>>>>> oups.com...
>>>>>> Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers
>>>> based on 601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year.
>>>> That makes me very happy.
>>> Do you use yours for business at all?
>>
>> Yes, I'll be using it to travel for business some.
> Are you allocating something, cost-wise, for your labor during the
> building process?

Not a dime. Unless soemthing happens to it during the build process before
first flight. In that case insurance will pay my $15/hr up to the insured
hull value.

[john smith[_2_]]

In article >,
"Marco Leon" > wrote:

> With
> requirement of six seats, I know the approximate costs in buying and
> maintaining a Saratoga or an 36-series Bonanza.

Compare weight & balance on any aircraft you are considering.
Always calculate takeoff and landing C/G and compare.

[john smith[_2_]]

Here is a slightly different answer, but just as relevant to the topic...

What is your marriage worth?

:-))

[Jon Kraus]

RST Engineering wrote:

> Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
> airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
> the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
> but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.
>

I must say that I think you hit the nail on the head... My mistake was
getting the Super Bug Smasher as my first plane. Although I could easily
afford it, I found that I wasn't flying enough to justify the cost.

For my life situation I chose to get out of the ownership hassles (and
there are many) and persue other interests. Flying is a hobby of
extremes. At one end is the beauty and excitement of the flying
experience itself. At the other end is the extreme expense and endless
red-tape involved in even the simplest of repairs or upgrades.

And of course after you fork over many AMU's on a repair or upgrade you
hear the horror stories of some inept A & P that ****s up your plane and
there isn't a damn thing you can do about it, except pay the bill to fix
it that is.

[Lou]

On Mar 27, 12:55 pm, john smith > wrote:
> Here is a slightly different answer, but just as relevant to the topic...
>
> What is your marriage worth?
>
> :-))


I prefer the plane.
Lou