Money grubbing FBO's

[wise purchaser]

what has happened? I have been seeing multiple FBO's charging for
using the ramp from 10 to 25 bucks to park per day also RIPPING me
off for fuel. Charging almost 4.50++ a gallon for AVGAS. PLUS county
flowage tax!

I now tanker my gas auto gas ($ 2.30 gal) screw them with the
RIPPOFF charges!!

The new long range O & N tank will PAY for itself in 100
hrs!!!! When they ask if I need fuel
with JOY!!!!!!!! i tell them NO!

It's not my fault that they screwed themselves with a ****TY lease
from the local county!

One FBO charges about 4.75+ per gallon PLUS $ 20 to park each day
told me that the County gets 30 % of thier GROSS revenue, PLUS a base
RENT!

The COUNTY thru the FBO gets 10 bucks to park!

Only a FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL would enter into that lease!

I have been told that if an airport takes ANY $$$$ from the Federal
Gov't for airport improvements that they cannot stop me from filling
MY tanks with auto gas on the ramp.

Is this true??

Comments???

[Newps]

wise purchaser wrote:

> I have been told that if an airport takes ANY $$$$ from the Federal
> Gov't for airport improvements that they cannot stop me from filling
> MY tanks with auto gas on the ramp.
>
> Is this true??
>

A few passages from todays Beech List, also talking about this same issue.





> According to AC150-5190-8c, that's true, but they can require you to
> adhere to the local safety rules.



> From AC150-5109:
>
> 2. Restrictions on Self-Service. An aircraft owner or operator may
> tie down, adjust, repair, refuel,
> clean, and otherwise service his/her own aircraft, provided the
> service is performed by the aircraft
> owner/operator or his/her employees with resources supplied by the
> aircraft owner or operator.
> Moreover, the service must be conducted in accordance with reasonable
> rules, regulations or
> standards established by the airport sponsor. Any unreasonable
> restriction imposed on the owners or
> operators of aircraft regarding the servicing of their own aircraft
> may be construed as an exclusive
> rights violation. In accordance with the FAA grant assurances:
>
> (1) An airport sponsor may not prevent an owner or operator of an
> aircraft from performing
> services on his/her own aircraft with his/her own employees and
> equipment. Restrictions
> imposed by an airport sponsor that have the effect of channeling self-
> service activities to a
> commercial aeronautical service provider may be an exclusive rights
> violation.
>
> (2) An airport sponsor must reasonably provide for self-servicing
> activity but is not obligated to
> lease airport facilities and land for such activity. That is, the
> airport sponsor is not required to
> encumber the airport with leases and facilities for self-servicing
> activity, and
>
> (3) An airport sponsor is under no obligation to permit aircraft
> owners or operators to introduce
> equipment, personnel, or practices on the airport that would be
> unsafe, unsightly, or detrimental
> to the public welfare or that would affect the efficient use of
> airport facilities by the public.
>





> Furthermore:
>
> o. Self-Fueling and Self-Service. Self-fueling means the fueling or
> servicing of an aircraft (i.e.
> changing the oil, washing) by the owner of the aircraft with his or
> her own employees and using his
> or her own equipment. Self-fueling and other self-services cannot be
> contracted out to another party.
> Self-fueling implies using fuel obtained by the aircraft owner from
> the source of his/her preference.
> As one of many self-service activities that can be conducted by the
> aircraft owner or operator by his
> or her own employees using his or her own equipment, self-fueling,
> differs from using a self-service
> fueling pump made available by the airport, an FBO or an aeronautical
> service provider. The use of a
> self-service fueling pump is a commercial activity and is not
> considered self-fueling as defined herein
> 9 AC 150/5190-6 1/4/2007
> and can be subject to minimum standards. In addition to self-fueling,
> other self-service activities that
> can be performed by the aircraft owner with his or her own employees
> includes activities such as
> maintaining, repairing, cleaning, and otherwise providing service to
> an aircraft, provided the service
> is performed by the aircraft owner or his/her employees with
> resources supplied by the aircraft
> owner. Title 14 CFR Part 43 permits the holder of a pilot certificate
> to perform specific types of
> preventative maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by the pilot.

[Jay Honeck]

> I have been told that if an airport takes ANY $$$$ from the Federal
> Gov't for airport improvements that they cannot stop me from filling
> MY tanks with auto gas on the ramp.
>
> Is this true??

Yes, as long as you don't violate any established safety procedures.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Spera]

A few questions below:
>
>> From AC150-5109:
>>
>> 2. Restrictions on Self-Service. An aircraft owner or operator may
>> tie down, adjust, repair, refuel,
>> clean, and otherwise service his/her own aircraft, provided the
>> service is performed by the aircraft
>> owner/operator or his/her employees with resources supplied by the
>> aircraft owner or operator.

Does the above mean that an outside mechanic that I hire could be
construed as an "employee" and do a ramp annual at my govt. funded airport?

>> Moreover, the service must be conducted in accordance with reasonable
>> rules, regulations or
>> standards established by the airport sponsor. Any unreasonable
>> restriction imposed on the owners or
>> operators of aircraft regarding the servicing of their own aircraft
>> may be construed as an exclusive
>> rights violation. In accordance with the FAA grant assurances:
>>
>> (1) An airport sponsor may not prevent an owner or operator of an
>> aircraft from performing
>> services on his/her own aircraft with his/her own employees and
>> equipment. Restrictions
>> imposed by an airport sponsor that have the effect of channeling self-
>> service activities to a
>> commercial aeronautical service provider may be an exclusive rights
>> violation.

Does the above mean that our current airport lease that has ridiculous
funding requirements for outside mechanics ($25,000 in working capital
being one of them) is an exclusive rights violation?
>>
>> (2) An airport sponsor must reasonably provide for self-servicing
>> activity but is not obligated to
>> lease airport facilities and land for such activity. That is, the
>> airport sponsor is not required to
>> encumber the airport with leases and facilities for self-servicing
>> activity, and
>>
>> (3) An airport sponsor is under no obligation to permit aircraft
>> owners or operators to introduce
>> equipment, personnel, or practices on the airport that would be
>> unsafe, unsightly, or detrimental
>> to the public welfare or that would affect the efficient use of
>> airport facilities by the public.

Does the above allow the airport the sole discretion to prohibit using
the "Mighty Grape" for on field fueling because they deem the thing
unsightly?
>
>
>> Furthermore:
>>
>> o. Self-Fueling and Self-Service. Self-fueling means the fueling or
>> servicing of an aircraft (i.e.
>> changing the oil, washing) by the owner of the aircraft with his or
>> her own employees and using his
>> or her own equipment. Self-fueling and other self-services cannot be
>> contracted out to another party.
Does the above tend to conflict with itself. I can use an "employee" but
cannot "contract out". Are we splitting an IRS hair on this point?

Have fun at your airport.
Mike

[tom418]

What Jay said.

In addition, if your airport receives fed money, you are allowed to do
maintenance in your tie down, etc. as long as it doesn't violate safety
procedures.
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > I have been told that if an airport takes ANY $$$$ from the Federal
> > Gov't for airport improvements that they cannot stop me from filling
> > MY tanks with auto gas on the ramp.
> >
> > Is this true??
>
> Yes, as long as you don't violate any established safety procedures.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Tri-Pacer]

">
> I now tanker my gas auto gas ($ 2.30 gal) screw them with the
> RIPPOFF charges!!
>



TROLL

[Clay]

The local fire marshall may throw a wrench into the works. This is
expecially true if they are in bed with the airport authority and the
FBO.

[Dave S]

Clay wrote:
> The local fire marshall may throw a wrench into the works. This is
> expecially true if they are in bed with the airport authority and the
> FBO.
>

The local fire marshall has nothing to say about you using approved
portable gasoline containers with a combined volume of less than 55
gallons. As long as they are stored empty, or in a contained and vented
"flammables" cabinet.

Flammable liquids in excess of that quantity invoke special rules
regarding transport of hazardous materials, a federal rule. Most
localities have adopted NFPA standards as the basis of their fire code,
usually word for word, which also provides federal guidance.

Finally, for there to be a problem, they have to actually catch you
doing it. Staying under the radar and not being the squeaky wheel goes a
long ways here.

I am a tenant in a city owned t-hangar in a major city. Our philosophy
with our hangar mates is to not be the one who gets noticed. Keeps
everyone happy. Inviting/Feeding the airport ops guys (the rank and file
folks) when we have hangar events helps too.

Dave

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 24, 6:59 pm, "wise purchaser" > wrote:
> what has happened? I have been seeing multiple FBO's charging for
> using the ramp from 10 to 25 bucks to park per day also RIPPING me
> off for fuel. Charging almost 4.50++ a gallon for AVGAS. PLUS county
> flowage tax!
>
> I now tanker my gas auto gas ($ 2.30 gal) screw them with the
> RIPPOFF charges!!
>
> The new long range O & N tank will PAY for itself in 100
> hrs!!!! When they ask if I need fuel
> with JOY!!!!!!!! i tell them NO!
>
> It's not my fault that they screwed themselves with a ****TY lease
> from the local county!
>
> One FBO charges about 4.75+ per gallon PLUS $ 20 to park each day
> told me that the County gets 30 % of thier GROSS revenue, PLUS a base
> RENT!
>
> The COUNTY thru the FBO gets 10 bucks to park!
>
> Only a FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL would enter into that lease!
>
> I have been told that if an airport takes ANY $$$$ from the Federal
> Gov't for airport improvements that they cannot stop me from filling
> MY tanks with auto gas on the ramp.
>
> Is this true??
>
> Comments???

Well, if the FBO is run by someone with any intelligence they will
charge as much as pilots will still pay. If you think the FBO is
charging way too much, you should become rich by charging 10 cents
less and take all their business.

At Sac Exec only one operation sells fuel. Another FBO recently bought
several fuel trucks (which the fuel company fills on site, avoiding
the need to transport the fuel). Once the FBO made it known that he
was considering selling his fuel to the public, the price from the one
fuel seller dropped about $1.50/gal (self-serve) over night.

-Robert

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message >
> At Sac Exec only one operation sells fuel. Another FBO recently bought
> several fuel trucks (which the fuel company fills on site, avoiding
> the need to transport the fuel). Once the FBO made it known that he
> was considering selling his fuel to the public, the price from the one
> fuel seller dropped about $1.50/gal (self-serve) over night.

Same thing happened at RAP; when Rapid Fuels opened, WestJet dropped their
price about $0.75 to $1.00 a gallon after having a nice monopoly for quite
some time.

[Jon Kraus]

Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
Authority surcharge (because they can).

When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
price before.

I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
Anyone else ever experience this?

Jon

[Cary]

On Mar 27, 7:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>
> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
> price before.
>
> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
> Anyone else ever experience this?
>
> Jon

I have been to many places around the country in which the local sales
tax was not included in the fuel price but added on to the price of
the fuel. I think it just depends upon how the FBO wants to display
the cost of fuel. It may be a local custom to add the local sales tax
at FBOs around Indianapolis.

Cary

[Cary]

I think it is very sad that we are losing more and more FBO's around
the country. Just yesterday I received notice from an FBO (Wings) that
has been in operation in Saint Paul for 39 years is now closing
because of lack of funds. If the only way these FBOs can stay in
business is to charge higher fees for fuel and add a ramp fee for
parking, then they need to do that and we have to support them as best
as we can. Otherwise, we will continue to lose FBOs, training
facilities, GA pilots, and ultimately the airport. I don't like paying
these fees either, but I know that most GA FBOs are not making a ton
of money but are barely hanging on.

Cary

On Mar 24, 8:59 pm, "wise purchaser" > wrote:
> what has happened? I have been seeing multiple FBO's charging for
> using the ramp from 10 to 25 bucks to park per day also RIPPING me
> off for fuel. Charging almost 4.50++ a gallon for AVGAS. PLUS county
> flowage tax!
>
snip
>
> Comments???

[Gene Seibel]

On Mar 24, 7:59 pm, "wise purchaser" > wrote:
> what has happened? I have been seeing multiple FBO's charging for
> using the ramp from 10 to 25 bucks to park per day also RIPPING me
> off for fuel. Charging almost 4.50++ a gallon for AVGAS. PLUS county
> flowage tax!

http://www.airnav.com/ is your friend. I haven't bought fuel at home
for nearly 2 years. I make a fuel stop on the way out of town and an
hour or so before getting home. Small county and city airports all
over are trying to attract visitors by selling without the big price
markups. Support them and work the free market at the same time.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:00:01 -0400, Jon Kraus >
wrote:

>Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
>Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
>charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
>Authority surcharge (because they can).
>
>When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
>just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
>it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
>price before.
>
>I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
>Anyone else ever experience this?

I stopped overnight at Topeka. Gas prices looked pretty good, until I
got the bill. They added all taxes on to the pump price. I purchased
at Salina on the way back and like Michigan their pump prices included
all taxes. We have sales tax on about everything.

>
>Jon
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 27, 6:52 am, "Cary" > wrote:
> I think it is very sad that we are losing more and more FBO's around
> the country. Just yesterday I received notice from an FBO (Wings) that
> has been in operation in Saint Paul for 39 years is now closing
> because of lack of funds. If the only way these FBOs can stay in
> business is to charge higher fees for fuel and add a ramp fee for
> parking, then they need to do that and we have to support them as best
> as we can. Otherwise, we will continue to lose FBOs, training
> facilities, GA pilots, and ultimately the airport. I don't like paying
> these fees either, but I know that most GA FBOs are not making a ton
> of money but are barely hanging on.


Again, I repeat my challenge. If anyone thinks the FBOs are charging
way to much, start your own fuel business, charge 10 cents/gal less
and become rich. If it doesn't work, then maybe the FBO isn't
overcharging as much as you think.

-Robert

[xyzzy]

On Mar 27, 8:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>
> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
> price before.
>
> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
> Anyone else ever experience this?

I know at my airport (KTTA in NC) my flying club rents planes wet but
we break out the base plane rental from the fuel, because we have to
charge sales tax on the rental but don't have to charge it on the
fuel, because the fuel price already includes all taxes. We verified
this with the state revenue department. It makes a difference of
about $2 in the hourly rates, and every little bit helps... I wonder
how many other places that rent wet are inadvertantly paying double
tax on their fuel (once when they fill the plane, then when they pay
sales tax on the wet rental).

[Ross]

Jon Kraus wrote:

> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>
> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
> price before.
>
> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
> Anyone else ever experience this?
>
> Jon

I had that happen years ago DRIVING though Indiana. On my way back I
filled up before the state line. I have see it elsewhere also.
Fayetteville, AR (KFYV) does this. I always that was taxing a tax. But,
they can.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:52 am, "Cary" > wrote:
>> I think it is very sad that we are losing more and more FBO's around
>> the country. Just yesterday I received notice from an FBO (Wings)
>> that has been in operation in Saint Paul for 39 years is now closing
>> because of lack of funds. If the only way these FBOs can stay in
>> business is to charge higher fees for fuel and add a ramp fee for
>> parking, then they need to do that and we have to support them as
>> best as we can. Otherwise, we will continue to lose FBOs, training
>> facilities, GA pilots, and ultimately the airport. I don't like
>> paying these fees either, but I know that most GA FBOs are not
>> making a ton of money but are barely hanging on.
>
>
> Again, I repeat my challenge. If anyone thinks the FBOs are charging
> way to much, start your own fuel business, charge 10 cents/gal less
> and become rich. If it doesn't work, then maybe the FBO isn't
> overcharging as much as you think.
>
> -Robert

You do realize that at MANY airports the FBO has an agreement with the
airport owner that they are the only ones that can sell fuel? Mine, KELD, is
but one example. I can bring my own fuel but I can't sell it to someone
else. The stipulation is in my grond lease for my hanger.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Ross wrote:

>
> I had that happen years ago DRIVING though Indiana. On my way back I
> filled up before the state line. I have see it elsewhere also.
> Fayetteville, AR (KFYV) does this. I always that was taxing a tax.
> But, they can.
>

And it is a Fayetteville thing because it isn't done everywhere in Arkansas.

[Ross]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Ross wrote:
>
>
>>I had that happen years ago DRIVING though Indiana. On my way back I
>>filled up before the state line. I have see it elsewhere also.
>>Fayetteville, AR (KFYV) does this. I always that was taxing a tax.
>>But, they can.
>>
>
>
> And it is a Fayetteville thing because it isn't done everywhere in Arkansas.
>
>
>

Yea I have refueled in other AR cities and did not have that. They do
not do it for autogas.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Jay Honeck]

> They added all taxes on to the pump price.

I understand your frustration, but I truly wish EVERYONE would start
listing their prices separate from the government's price. We do it
that way in the hotel business, and it often startles people to
discover how much extra they are forced to pay for...nothing.

For example: Our price for a 1-bedroom whirlpool aviation theme suite,
with a full kitchen and delivered breakfast, is quoted as $99.95 --
NOT the $111.95 we are forced to charge our guests so that our gummint
doesn't have to do the extorting themselves.

Yes, boys and girls, that's an extra 12% larded on to your hotel
room. Suck it in and enjoy it. (And they're talking about increasing
it.)

Only when EVERYONE starts highlighting the rip-off by listing the
prices separately will we be able to stop our insane, insatiable
juggernaut of a gummint.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steve Foley]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> For example: Our price for a 1-bedroom whirlpool aviation theme suite,
> with a full kitchen and delivered breakfast, is quoted as $99.95 --
> NOT the $111.95 we are forced to charge our guests so that our gummint
> doesn't have to do the extorting themselves.

I sure hope you let these folks know about sometime before checkout time.

I'd be pretty annoyed if the 'quoted' price was not the 'charged' price.

[Marty Shapiro]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
oups.com:

>> They added all taxes on to the pump price.
>
> I understand your frustration, but I truly wish EVERYONE would start
> listing their prices separate from the government's price. We do it
> that way in the hotel business, and it often startles people to
> discover how much extra they are forced to pay for...nothing.
>
> For example: Our price for a 1-bedroom whirlpool aviation theme suite,
> with a full kitchen and delivered breakfast, is quoted as $99.95 --
> NOT the $111.95 we are forced to charge our guests so that our gummint
> doesn't have to do the extorting themselves.
>
> Yes, boys and girls, that's an extra 12% larded on to your hotel
> room. Suck it in and enjoy it. (And they're talking about increasing
> it.)
>
> Only when EVERYONE starts highlighting the rip-off by listing the
> prices separately will we be able to stop our insane, insatiable
> juggernaut of a gummint.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Municipalities have hotel/motel occupancy taxes because those that pay
them don't vote in the municipality imposing them. They have forgotten one
of the reasons why we are not part of Britain - taxation without
representation.

Unfortunately, people on expense account don't give a damn about
taxes.

Only when the take gets to be onerous does it affect travel, and
that's mainly because corporations find other places to go. New York City
under Mayor Dinkins raised the occupancy tax to 20%. Coupled with their
sales tax and other taxes, the "take" by the city was 30% (and this was on
top of some of the highest hotel rates in the country), and that was high
enough to cause a drop in business which affected a lot more than the
hotels.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Paul kgyy]

My FBO is the only one on the field, and they do charge more than at
smaller airports not far away. However, they have an excellent flight
prep room with both WSI and internet weather. They haul my plane out
of the hangar when there's a ridge of ice in front. They bring fuel
to my hangar. They let me wash the plane inside their hangar on
Saturdays (or week days if they aren't too busy). They pick me up
from the train and bring me to the airport if I'm too loaded to hike
the mile. Although I won't let them do my annual, they have a shop on
the field when I find problems that need to be fixed before I fly. I
suspect that their airport fees have increased because of additional
airport security procedures since 9/11.

I don't begrudge them a decent profit margin; they are fine people.

[Roger[_4_]]

On 27 Mar 2007 09:31:23 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:

>On Mar 27, 8:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
>> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
>> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
>> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
>> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>>
>> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
>> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
>> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
>> price before.
>>
>> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
>> Anyone else ever experience this?
>
>I know at my airport (KTTA in NC) my flying club rents planes wet but

Your club rents planes?
The club I was in had members who owned the plane. We did not rent and
our insurance wouldn't let us without paying one whale of an increase,
but we did charge ourselves so much per hour. The airplane(s) were in
partnership so only the owners were flying. Hence no sales tax. Who
ever flew was expected to bring the plane back to the hangar with full
fuel, or to the tabs in the summer.

>we break out the base plane rental from the fuel, because we have to
>charge sales tax on the rental but don't have to charge it on the
>fuel, because the fuel price already includes all taxes. We verified
>this with the state revenue department. It makes a difference of
>about $2 in the hourly rates, and every little bit helps... I wonder
>how many other places that rent wet are inadvertantly paying double
>tax on their fuel (once when they fill the plane, then when they pay
>sales tax on the wet rental).

OTOH I may have mentioned, the State of Michigan is strapped for cash
and some of the departments are really pushing the limits of legality.
One of the guys on the airport purchased a plane "FROM A DEALER" in
one of the southern states. It needed a bit of work but was in pretty
nice shape. However they wanted to move it and he picked it up for
about 20 grand less than book price. The state is refusing to take the
tax on what he paid legally to a dealer and is demanding tax on the
full book price. They can do that between individuals, but where the
dealer is accountable in their state as well as the individual here,
they are not supposed to accept the actual sale price.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jon Kraus]

They've been cash strapped for a decade or so now... WTF? Why don't
they vote someone in to do the job better? I moved from Monroe 26 years
ago adn have never looked back

Jon


> OTOH I may have mentioned, the State of Michigan is strapped for cash
> and some of the departments are really pushing the limits of legality.

[Roger[_4_]]

On 27 Mar 2007 07:05:12 -0700, "Gene Seibel" > wrote:

>On Mar 24, 7:59 pm, "wise purchaser" > wrote:
>> what has happened? I have been seeing multiple FBO's charging for
>> using the ramp from 10 to 25 bucks to park per day also RIPPING me
>> off for fuel. Charging almost 4.50++ a gallon for AVGAS. PLUS county
>> flowage tax!
>
>http://www.airnav.com/ is your friend. I haven't bought fuel at home
>for nearly 2 years. I make a fuel stop on the way out of town and an
>hour or so before getting home. Small county and city airports all
>over are trying to attract visitors by selling without the big price
>markups. Support them and work the free market at the same time.

Unless it's close and at a substantial discount, I can not descend,
land, fuel up, take off and climb back to altitude for what I could
save at the cheapest place within 200 or 300 miles.

Clare 48D is about 20 NW and they used to be almost a buck cheaper
than here. If it was on the way, it was worth stopping However at $90
plus an hour I'll have a good half hour engine time taking off, flying
over getting gas and flying back. Only on long trips do I use 45
gallons and that would just be breaking even. Let's say I flew to PJY
which is a bit over 3 hours. Let's say it took 50 gallons for a
savings of $50 dollars, but that would add about 0.4 hours to the
engine so 90 X 0.4 = 36 or $50 - $36 = $14 saved but I've added a take
off and landing after fueling so after refueling I still have to fly
home and put the plane away. You wouldn't have to drop the difference
to much less than a dollar a gallon before it'd be costing me money to
save a little on gas.

OTOH if I'm just out playing around, or practicing and I practice a
lot then it makes sense to stop off and purchase fuel that is only a
little cheaper. Plus they have free coffee, donuts, and ice cream.

Locally we have little mark up, BUT the city was cheap and didn't put
in large tanks so they can't take a full truck load and that means
they have to pay noticeably more per gallon. When the FBO was selling
gas he had to pay a flowage fee on top of that. Now the city has fired
some one to operate the airport and being it's the city selling the
gas there is no flowage fee, but it's still about 10 cents a gallon
higher than most places near us.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jay Honeck]

> > For example: Our price for a 1-bedroom whirlpool aviation theme suite,
> > with a full kitchen and delivered breakfast, is quoted as $99.95 --
> > NOT the $111.95 we are forced to charge our guests so that our gummint
> > doesn't have to do the extorting themselves.
>
> I sure hope you let these folks know about sometime before checkout time.

Oh, sure. In fact, we let them know the total including tax while
they're on the phone making the reservation, since we have to
preauthorize their credit card before they have a reservation.

By the way -- all hotel prices are quoted this way. Go to Travelocity
or Orbitz, and every hotel's prices are listed this way, thankfully.
I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay to post the government's extortion on
my advertisements. I sure don't ever see a nickel of it.

My real price, followed by a small "plus tax", used to say it all.
Now that the politicians have pushed that tax up to absurd levels --
12% -- however, that little "plus tax" can truly come as a rude
surprise.

And you can bet that I tell every one of my guests what I think of it,
at every opportunity.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Municipalities have hotel/motel occupancy taxes because those that pay
> them don't vote in the municipality imposing them. They have forgotten one
> of the reasons why we are not part of Britain - taxation without
> representation.

Amen, Marty.

What really sucks is that -- with all of our hot tub suites -- many of
our guests are locals, especially in the winter. They're usually
young couples who really can't afford to go to Myrtle Beach for a
week, but they NEED a getaway weekend.

So they drop the kids with grandma and come spend the weekend with
us. Our winter rates are hard to beat, but it is SO unfair to tax
these kids at such a horrendous rate.

Maybe the business and university crowd don't care about taxes -- but
everyone else is sure hurt by it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay to post the government's extortion on
> my advertisements. I sure don't ever see a nickel of it.
>

Really, in Arkansas we used to get a 2% discount off the sales tax when paid
on time as a sort of collection fee. I don't know if they still do it. The
business I'm in now doesn't collect or pay sales tax. There was at least
talk of doing away with it a couple of years ago. It wasn't all that much
money for a small retailer like I was at the time. But can you imagian how
much somebody like Wal-Mart got discounted?

[John Theune]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> For example: Our price for a 1-bedroom whirlpool aviation theme suite,
>>> with a full kitchen and delivered breakfast, is quoted as $99.95 --
>>> NOT the $111.95 we are forced to charge our guests so that our gummint
>>> doesn't have to do the extorting themselves.
>> I sure hope you let these folks know about sometime before checkout time.
>
> Oh, sure. In fact, we let them know the total including tax while
> they're on the phone making the reservation, since we have to
> preauthorize their credit card before they have a reservation.
>
> By the way -- all hotel prices are quoted this way. Go to Travelocity
> or Orbitz, and every hotel's prices are listed this way, thankfully.
> I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay to post the government's extortion on
> my advertisements. I sure don't ever see a nickel of it.
>
> My real price, followed by a small "plus tax", used to say it all.
> Now that the politicians have pushed that tax up to absurd levels --
> 12% -- however, that little "plus tax" can truly come as a rude
> surprise.
>
> And you can bet that I tell every one of my guests what I think of it,
> at every opportunity.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
12% is not as bad as it gets, I've seen places where it's closer to 20%
when you throw in city, county and state taxes. In the county I live in
to play golf you have to pay sales tax 5% and a 12% entertainment tax to
play at a local muni course and we are not a golf destination.

[Steve Foley]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message

> Oh, sure. In fact, we let them know the total including tax while
> they're on the phone making the reservation, since we have to
> preauthorize their credit card before they have a reservation.

Maybe I'm showing my age, but I remember only needing to give a Credit Card
for a guaranteed room. They would hold the room until 6:00 without one. Has
that changed?


> By the way -- all hotel prices are quoted this way. Go to Travelocity
> or Orbitz, and every hotel's prices are listed this way, thankfully.

I never noticed. Fortunately, I don't stay in hotels much anymore. BTDT. I'd
rather be home.

> I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay to post the government's extortion on
> my advertisements. I sure don't ever see a nickel of it.

What do you mean, you never see a nickle? Don't you get to collect it,
account for it, and remit to to the gubmint?

[Blanche]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>My real price, followed by a small "plus tax", used to say it all.
>Now that the politicians have pushed that tax up to absurd levels --
>12% -- however, that little "plus tax" can truly come as a rude
>surprise.

Denver has the same. The auto shop I prefer is in the City & County
of Denver (I live in Arapahoe county). If I need to rent a car while
mine is in the shop, I'm forced to pay 12-13% "tourist" tax. If I
rent close to home, it's only 8%.

And they slap that on all arts & entertainment (including the opera
*and* the Broncos tickets!) as well as everything that could
possibly be considered "tourist" or "business traveler".

Now, how many "tourists" come to see the Broncos v. the 70K season
ticket holders (who are ALSO forced to pay!)?

And that's why I try to avoid spending money in the City & County of
Denver.

[Blanche]

John Theune > wrote:
>12% is not as bad as it gets, I've seen places where it's closer to 20%
>when you throw in city, county and state taxes. In the county I live in
>to play golf you have to pay sales tax 5% and a 12% entertainment tax to
>play at a local muni course and we are not a golf destination.

I'll see your golf tax and raise you....tax on a speeding ticket!

Yup, in Colorado (at least in the Front Range counties), you pay
sales tax when you pay the fine for a speeding ticket.

[John Clear]

In article >,
Blanche > wrote:
>
>I'll see your golf tax and raise you....tax on a speeding ticket!
>
>Yup, in Colorado (at least in the Front Range counties), you pay
>sales tax when you pay the fine for a speeding ticket.

Is it actually listed as sales tax, or is it a special assessment
or other BS wording?

Every place (NY, CA, IN, OH) I've gotten a ticket has tacked on
various assessments and fees to the base ticket (which is really
just a randomly assessed tax any way).

The judge in one case described it best. "That will be a $75 fine,
and $35 for Uncle Mario." Uncle Mario was then-governor Mario
Cuomo.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Blanche wrote:
> John Theune > wrote:
>> 12% is not as bad as it gets, I've seen places where it's closer to
>> 20% when you throw in city, county and state taxes. In the county I
>> live in to play golf you have to pay sales tax 5% and a 12%
>> entertainment tax to play at a local muni course and we are not a
>> golf destination.
>
> I'll see your golf tax and raise you....tax on a speeding ticket!
>
> Yup, in Colorado (at least in the Front Range counties), you pay
> sales tax when you pay the fine for a speeding ticket.

They so much the same around here only they call it court costs. You pay it
no matter if you take the ticket to court or not.

[Eduardo K.]

In article <lMuOh.2180$Rp2.1203@trndny04>,
John Theune > wrote:
>
>12% is not as bad as it gets, I've seen places where it's closer to 20%
>when you throw in city, county and state taxes. In the county I live in
>to play golf you have to pay sales tax 5% and a 12% entertainment tax to
>play at a local muni course and we are not a golf destination.


places like this country... 19% :)

--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank

[Jay Honeck]

> Maybe I'm showing my age, but I remember only needing to give a Credit Card
> for a guaranteed room. They would hold the room until 6:00 without one. Has
> that changed?

Nope, nothing has changed. When you give a hotel your credit card
number, they do what's called a "preauthorization" of your card for
the dollar amount of your hotel room rental.

This does several things:

1. It makes sure your credit card number is valid
2. It sets aside 'x' amount of money from your credit limit to pay for
your hotel room.
3. It gives the hotel a way to charge you if you no-show.
4. It serves as your room damage deposit.

Nothing is charged until you arrive, but gives the hotel the ability
to charge your card.

Without a credit card number on file, there is no reservation --
period. It's an ever-diminishing minority, but I still find it
amazing the number of people that don't have a credit card, and still
don't understand what the word "reservation" means.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Maybe I'm showing my age, but I remember only needing to give a Credit Card
> > for a guaranteed room. They would hold the room until 6:00 without one. Has
> > that changed?

Sorry, I didn't see that last part until after I hit "reply".

Many motels will hold a room till 6 PM with no credit card on file.
This they can do because they have 200 rooms, all identical, and they
rarely fill more than 150 of them on any given night -- so they have
nothing to lose if you don't show up.

We, on the other hand, have just 28 unique aviation theme suites. At
our place, if a guest reserves the Stearman Suite, it's likely that
they are really into 1930s biplanes, really want *that* suite only,
and substituting the Blackbird Suite ain't gonna cut it.

Chances are there might be other 1930s aviation buffs out there who
are trying to reserve that suite, too -- but after you've made your
"reservation", I'm gonna turn that business away because you promised
that you were coming.

In my world, a "promise" to show up -- without a credit card to back
it -- ain't worth a bucket of warm spit. In my 5 years experience as
a hotelier, if a guest isn't willing to put a credit card down as
collateral on their reservation, they almost certainly are not going
to show up. You won't lose very much money betting that they won't
show, that's for certain.

Therefore, we have a 72 hour cancellation policy for all guests --
UNLESS you are pilot and conditions drop below 1000' and 3 miles
visibility along your route of flight. For those pilots -- and ONLY
for those pilots -- we allow you to cancel right up till 6 PM without
penalty. This is our "IFR Cancellation Policy."

Drive-in guests get charged full rate if they cancel inside that last
72 hours -- and they know this up-front when they make their
reservation. We're just too small to do it any other way.

(And actually, for special events, it's a 7-day cancellation period.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:


>
> Therefore, we have a 72 hour cancellation policy for all guests --
> UNLESS you are pilot and conditions drop below 1000' and 3 miles
> visibility along your route of flight. For those pilots -- and ONLY
> for those pilots -- we allow you to cancel right up till 6 PM without
> penalty. This is our "IFR Cancellation Policy."

It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10 mile
viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.

[Jay Honeck]

> It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10 mile
> viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
> setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
> Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.

Hey, here in Iowa 1000 and 3 is doable. Remember, there's no high
terrain to hit here!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Therefore, we have a 72 hour cancellation policy for all guests --
>> UNLESS you are pilot and conditions drop below 1000' and 3 miles
>> visibility along your route of flight. For those pilots -- and ONLY
>> for those pilots -- we allow you to cancel right up till 6 PM without
>> penalty. This is our "IFR Cancellation Policy."
>
> It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10 mile
> viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
> setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
> Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.

In the northeast in the summer, 1000 and 3 is considered CAVU! :-)

Matt

[David Lesher]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:


>Hey, here in Iowa 1000 and 3 is doable. Remember, there's no high
>terrain to hit here!

What about that tall corn? And beanstalks -- are they painted/strobed?

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Dave[_5_]]

> Hey, here in Iowa 1000 and 3 is doable. Remember, there's no high
> terrain to hit here!

....But there are tall towers. I remember navigating across Iowa under
a cieling and in crappy visibility using mainly pilotage (this was
before the day of GPS, and the only
VOR within range was OTS). Most of the towers were where they were
supposed to be, but one in particular (that we knew was out there) was
never spotted. Spooky.
I put in an ADF after that trip (and it came in handy a few times).

David Johnson

[Jay Honeck]

> In the northeast in the summer, 1000 and 3 is considered CAVU! :-)

Yeah, there are some hot, sticky days in August when there is so much
moisture in the air that it's like flying inside a ping-pong ball.
It's legal VFR, but it sure ain't pretty.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("David Lesher" wrote)
> What about that tall corn? And beanstalks -- are they painted/strobed?


"Knee high by the Fourth of July" is what the NOTAMs will read for Iowa.

Now, in Oklahoma it's a different story.
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/ohwhata.htm
"The corn is as high as an elephant's eye,
An' it looks like it's climbin' clear up to the sky."


Montblack

[NTurk]

On Mar 26, 11:11 am, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:
>
> Same thing happened at RAP; when Rapid Fuels opened, WestJet dropped their
> price about $0.75 to $1.00 a gallon after having a nice monopoly for quite
> some time.

How would you know?You are not even a pilot, you're a construction
worker.Do you use av gas otj?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

NTurk wrote:
> On Mar 26, 11:11 am, "Matt Barrow" >
> wrote:
>>
>> Same thing happened at RAP; when Rapid Fuels opened, WestJet dropped
>> their price about $0.75 to $1.00 a gallon after having a nice
>> monopoly for quite some time.
>
> How would you know?You are not even a pilot, you're a construction
> worker.Do you use av gas otj?

Matt has been around here a while. Who the hell are you?

[NTurk]

On Mar 30, 8:09 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
wrote:
>
> Matt has been around here a while. Who the hell are you?

"Gig"' , and just who the hell might you be? And why is it that you
would want to know who the hell it is that I am? Do you ask others on
Usenet this question. Can I not be who I am without a long
distingushed history on Google? You cut me to the quick, "Gig", but I
would respectfully submit that you are presenting quite the paradox in
that a person must have an identity to post here, but he cannot have
an identity without having posted here "AWHILE". How long have you
been here? What are your qualifications to post here?

Newton Turk
Chief Test Pilot
NASA Dryden Reseach Center

[Blanche]

NTurk > wrote:
>On Mar 26, 11:11 am, "Matt Barrow" >
>wrote:
>>
>> Same thing happened at RAP; when Rapid Fuels opened, WestJet dropped their
>> price about $0.75 to $1.00 a gallon after having a nice monopoly for quite
>> some time.
>
>How would you know?You are not even a pilot, you're a construction
>worker.Do you use av gas otj?

my my my....has Eli Lily been withholding you shipments of Prozac
lately?

[Blanche]

NTurk > wrote:
>On Mar 30, 8:09 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
>wrote:
>>
>> Matt has been around here a while. Who the hell are you?
>
>"Gig"' , and just who the hell might you be? And why is it that you
>would want to know who the hell it is that I am? Do you ask others on
>Usenet this question. Can I not be who I am without a long
>distingushed history on Google? You cut me to the quick, "Gig", but I
>would respectfully submit that you are presenting quite the paradox in
>that a person must have an identity to post here, but he cannot have
>an identity without having posted here "AWHILE". How long have you
>been here? What are your qualifications to post here?
>
>Newton Turk
>Chief Test Pilot
>NASA Dryden Reseach Center

Hm...someone with a yahoo account but claims to be at Dryden...
that's questionable right there. There's no one by the name of
Newton Turk at Dryden, working for NASA. And when talking to
Flight Ops, they confirm there's no one by that name.

So, Mr Test Pilot, you're a fake, and a rude one too.

For those who wish to confirm, NASA Dryden 661.276.3311

And you may not attempt to claim "classified" or black ops. Why?
Because under US DOD (and other) rules and laws, you may not deny
what is true, only refuse to comment. So, when multiple people
at Dryden and Edwards deny your existence, there is
sufficient and necessary reason to believe them.

Me? I spent 2 years at JPL and drove up to Edwards AFB/Dryden
frequently. We got the good seats for shuttle landings!

[Gig 601XL Builder]

NTurk wrote:
> On Mar 30, 8:09 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Matt has been around here a while. Who the hell are you?
>
> "Gig"' , and just who the hell might you be? And why is it that you
> would want to know who the hell it is that I am? Do you ask others on
> Usenet this question. Can I not be who I am without a long
> distingushed history on Google? You cut me to the quick, "Gig", but I
> would respectfully submit that you are presenting quite the paradox in
> that a person must have an identity to post here, but he cannot have
> an identity without having posted here "AWHILE". How long have you
> been here? What are your qualifications to post here?
>
> Newton Turk
> Chief Test Pilot
> NASA Dryden Reseach Center

Well Newt I never said anyone couldn't post but showing up to attack a long
standing member is pretty much the definition of a troll. Lying about who
and what you are just proves you are an ass whoever you might be.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"NTurk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 26, 11:11 am, "Matt Barrow" >
> wrote:
>>
>> Same thing happened at RAP; when Rapid Fuels opened, WestJet dropped
>> their
>> price about $0.75 to $1.00 a gallon after having a nice monopoly for
>> quite
>> some time.
>
> How would you know?You are not even a pilot, you're a construction
> worker.

Yeah...a construction worker with a yearly income well in excess of six
figures.

Sure beats your wildest fantasy, SFB loser.

> Do you use av gas otj?

Yeah, AAMOF I do. When I fly to construction sites, I use plenty of 100LL in
my new bird.

I suspect MXMANIAC has more hours than this phoney.

Matt Barrow
Owner
Performance Homes, LLC.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> NTurk > wrote:
>>On Mar 26, 11:11 am, "Matt Barrow" >
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> Same thing happened at RAP; when Rapid Fuels opened, WestJet dropped
>>> their
>>> price about $0.75 to $1.00 a gallon after having a nice monopoly for
>>> quite
>>> some time.
>>
>>How would you know?You are not even a pilot, you're a construction
>>worker.Do you use av gas otj?
>
> my my my....has Eli Lily been withholding you shipments of Prozac
> lately?

Either that or mommy hasn't given him the teat.

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> > What about that tall corn? And beanstalks -- are they painted/strobed?
>
> "Knee high by the Fourth of July" is what the NOTAMs will read for Iowa.

Ha! That was before all the genetically modified stuff.

Corn is now knee-high by the 3rd week of June, sometimes sooner.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger[_4_]]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:38:21 -0400, Jon Kraus >
wrote:

>They've been cash strapped for a decade or so now... WTF? Why don't

Lot longer than that.

>they vote someone in to do the job better? I moved from Monroe 26 years

We're slaves to the auto industry. That is suck ... er... such
(Freudian slip?) a large voting block I doubt it'd make much
difference who we get. They try to blame every one except the
industry, yet probably 90 % of our woes go back to an industry that is
still trying to sell large gas guzzlers by calling them flex fuel
vehicles that probably wouldn't last a year burning E85. Besides, who
is going to spend the extra for a fuel that gets considerably less
MPG.

Now government is pushing for electric cars (we don't have the
infrastructure to support them and it takes a lot of power generated
some where to turn them, usually generated by coal burning power
plants.), Hydrogen power (takes even more power to generate), plus
using corn and soybeans for alcohol which is inefficient and takes
food crops out of production.

Its true these things can be done well in specific instances and there
are areas where solar power is quite viable. However, here in the
Great Lakes states we have so little capability they don't even list
us on the pay back charts. Most of this stuff that looks so good and
is being pushed by the politicians doesn't scale well. OTOH if they'd
go to hemp and microbes to generate the alcohol (like Canada) we could
build quite an industry without having nearly as much of an effect on
the economy.
However the auto industry is going to have to bit the bullet and build
mainly cars that get good mileage. They could even build luxury cars
that would do so, but the big cars, trucks, and SUVs are going to have
to go except for those who really need them. Until people *really*
economize they won't have much incentive.

I wrote a short piece for the local paper to answer a question some
one asked about switching to the energy saving fluorescent lights.
Rush Limbaugh reportedly said they are a hoax. I did the measurements
and they really do put out the same lumens as an incandescent that
takes three times as much power although it's in a wavelength where I
need to run a bit more power and can only save about 50%.
I figured changing 10 100 watt light bulbs to the energy saving type
per home and figured the lights would only be on about 4 hours a day
so I took a very conservative approach. With the relatively low rates
we have here in Michigan that'd only be 20 cents a day saved per home.
Based on the number of occupied homes in the US according to the 2001
census it works out to millions a day and something like 40 billion
per year. It was enough energy to power 18,000 cars an hour per day at
50 MPH. I'd have to go back and redo the figures but it was one of
those where a little at each home would have been enough to almost
eliminate the need for one power generation station.

Even projecting some improvements in the efficiency of generating
alternative energy sources, we are still looking at roughly $3.50 a
gallon gas to make them competitive, or economically viable..
Of course the boosters say we only have to increase yields. That
takes chemicals and a lot more energy so you don't gain near as much
as it appears.

>ago adn have never looked back

Don't blame you. Now I'm kinda anchored down. At my age I have the
large tower and antenna system that would be costly to hire taken
down. (Each guy anchor weighs over 17,000 pounds) Still we are looking
at the possibility. Maybe I can find another ham looking for an acre
out in the country with a ready made antenna system. My wife and I
would both like a warmer climate, but with out mold, mildew (lets out
Florida and the gulf coast) or hurricanes (adds the East Coast to the
list), and I peg California as about the only state worse than
Michigan. That only leaves the south west and I find that too
desolate.


>Jon
>
>
>> OTOH I may have mentioned, the State of Michigan is strapped for cash
>> and some of the departments are really pushing the limits of legality.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:31:45 -0500, Ross > wrote:

>Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
>> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
>> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
>> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>>
>> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
>> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
>> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
>> price before.
>>
>> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
>> Anyone else ever experience this?
>>
>> Jon
>
>I had that happen years ago DRIVING though Indiana. On my way back I
>filled up before the state line. I have see it elsewhere also.
>Fayetteville, AR (KFYV) does this. I always that was taxing a tax. But,
>they can.

Headed south on I75 out of Michigan I stopped at an Ohio gas station
not too far south of the border (Near the turn pike). They had some
really good gas prices. Thing is, I put 5 gallons more in the tank
than it's capable of holding and it wasn't empty.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Ray Andraka]

Newps wrote:

> It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10 mile
> viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
> setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
> Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.
>
>
>
10mi vis is darn good VFR here in Northeast during the summer. It's not
uncommon to go weeks at a time with vis between 5 and 10 mi.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:52:22 -0400, Ray Andraka >
wrote:

>Newps wrote:
>
>> It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10 mile
>> viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
>> setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
>> Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.

Hell, we call that CAVU out here in the Great Lakes!
They send the students out when it's greater than 1500 and 5.
When I left BJC with 1500 and 5 they thought I was crazy. Then I told
them it was a lot better than what I could expect at home.

Below is and actual quote of a VFR briefing I had out of Marysvill KS
and that is well WEST of the Missippi. "Your in luck. If you go right
away it looks good 40 miles either side of your flight path. Expect
visibility 5 and ceilings of 1500. Both much less in many instances of
heavy rain. Have a good trip!" and that is a word for word quote near
as I can remember. (absolutely no mention of VFR not recommended) OH,
yahhhh...Winds were 30G50 right down the strip when we took off.
Staying at 500 feet we had a tail wind of well over 100 knots.
Precipitation static was so bad I had to shut off the master twice to
get the nav radios to work.

When we got home my wife remarked, "Yah know, that Dramamine is
wonderful stuff!".

>>
>>
>>
>10mi vis is darn good VFR here in Northeast during the summer. It's not
>uncommon to go weeks at a time with vis between 5 and 10 mi.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Newps]

Ray Andraka wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>> It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10
>> mile viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
>> setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
>> Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.
>>
>>
>>
> 10mi vis is darn good VFR here in Northeast during the summer. It's not
> uncommon to go weeks at a time with vis between 5 and 10 mi.

Too bad for you. 100 mile viz is normal here.

[xyzzy]

On Mar 27, 8:22 pm, Roger > wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2007 09:31:23 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:
>
> >On Mar 27, 8:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
> >> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
> >> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
> >> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
> >> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>
> >> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
> >> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
> >> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
> >> price before.
>
> >> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
> >> Anyone else ever experience this?
>
> >I know at my airport (KTTA in NC) my flying club rents planes wet but
>
> Your club rents planes?

Yeah, it's structured as a nonprofit corporation with the members as
the shareholders. The corporation owns the planes and rents them to
the members.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:54:19 -0500, tom418 wrote:

> In addition, if your airport receives fed money, you are allowed to do
> maintenance in your tie down, etc. as long as it doesn't violate safety
> procedures.

Have you a reference for that? This would be terrific news indeed for a
field where our club has some planes based.

- Andrew

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>> In addition, if your airport receives fed money, you are allowed to do
>> maintenance in your tie down, etc. as long as it doesn't violate safety
>> procedures.
>
>Have you a reference for that? This would be terrific news indeed for a
>field where our club has some planes based.
>
These are part of the standard grant assurances that are agreed to when an
airport accepts funds from the Airport Improvement Program. AOPA has a .pdf
document that covers this :

http://www.aopa.org/asn/airport_compliance.pdf

See page 48 under assurance #22 (Economic Nondiscrimination). It reads in
part :

"It will not exercise or grant any right or privilege which operates
to prevent any person, firm, or corporation operating aircraft
on the airport; from performing any services on its own
aircraft with its own employees (including, but not limited to
maintenance, repair, and fueling) that it may choose to perform."

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200704/1

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:7038669109b67@uwe...
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>>> In addition, if your airport receives fed money, you are allowed to do
>>> maintenance in your tie down, etc. as long as it doesn't violate safety
>>> procedures.
>>
>>Have you a reference for that? This would be terrific news indeed for a
>>field where our club has some planes based.
>>
> These are part of the standard grant assurances that are agreed to when
> an
> airport accepts funds from the Airport Improvement Program. AOPA has a
> .pdf
> document that covers this :
>
> http://www.aopa.org/asn/airport_compliance.pdf
>
> See page 48 under assurance #22 (Economic Nondiscrimination). It reads
> in
> part :
>
> "It will not exercise or grant any right or privilege which operates
> to prevent any person, firm, or corporation operating aircraft
> on the airport; from performing any services on its own
> aircraft with its own employees (including, but not limited to
> maintenance, repair, and fueling) that it may choose to perform."
>

I wonder if refilling oxygen tanks would come under that provision?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:54:33 +0000, JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:

> "It will not exercise or grant any right or privilege which operates to
> prevent any person, firm, or corporation operating aircraft on the
> airport; from performing any services on its own aircraft with its own
> employees (including, but not limited to maintenance, repair, and fueling)
> that it may choose to perform."

Thanks, but this isn't as helpful as I'd hoped. We don't employ A&P/IAs.
We contract with outside firms for those services. Since the mechanics
are not our employees, this means that they can be excluded by the airport
owner/manager.

Am I missing something?

- Andrew

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:54:33 +0000, JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
>
>> "It will not exercise or grant any right or privilege which operates to
>> prevent any person, firm, or corporation operating aircraft on the
>> airport; from performing any services on its own aircraft with its own
>> employees (including, but not limited to maintenance, repair, and
>> fueling)
>> that it may choose to perform."
>
> Thanks, but this isn't as helpful as I'd hoped. We don't employ A&P/IAs.
> We contract with outside firms for those services. Since the mechanics
> are not our employees, this means that they can be excluded by the airport
> owner/manager.
>
> Am I missing something?

"...to prevent any person, ..."

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:46:44 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>>> "It will not exercise or grant any right or privilege which operates to
>>> prevent any person, firm, or corporation operating aircraft on the
>>> airport; from performing any services on its own aircraft with its own
>>> employees (including, but not limited to maintenance, repair, and
>>> fueling)
>>> that it may choose to perform."
>>
>> Thanks, but this isn't as helpful as I'd hoped. We don't employ
>> A&P/IAs. We contract with outside firms for those services. Since the
>> mechanics are not our employees, this means that they can be excluded by
>> the airport owner/manager.
>>
>> Am I missing something?
>
> "...to prevent any person, ..."

That statement appears to refer to the owner. That is, any person may
have employees performing services on that person's own aircraft. It
doesn't read (to me, anyway) that the airport must permit "any person" to
do the work on any aircraft.

You see this differently? Please, convince me!

- Andrew

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:46:44 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>>> "It will not exercise or grant any right or privilege which operates to
>>>> prevent any person, firm, or corporation operating aircraft on the
>>>> airport; from performing any services on its own aircraft with its own
>>>> employees (including, but not limited to maintenance, repair, and
>>>> fueling)
>>>> that it may choose to perform."
>>>
>>> Thanks, but this isn't as helpful as I'd hoped. We don't employ
>>> A&P/IAs. We contract with outside firms for those services. Since the
>>> mechanics are not our employees, this means that they can be excluded by
>>> the airport owner/manager.
>>>
>>> Am I missing something?
>>
>> "...to prevent any person, ..."
>
> That statement appears to refer to the owner. That is, any person may
> have employees performing services on that person's own aircraft. It
> doesn't read (to me, anyway) that the airport must permit "any person" to
> do the work on any aircraft.
>
> You see this differently? Please, convince me!
>
Q: Who is an "employee" under the law?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 08:49:46 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

> Q: Who is an "employee" under the law?

Which law?

Working in the software business, I'd once upon a time occasion to become
very familiar with section 1706 of the 1986 tax reform act. However...

I'd assume that an "employee" is one that receives a W2. Otherwise -
again, going with my assumption - the person is something other than an
employee. After all, we're required to submit W2s for employees.

Have you some reason to suggest use of a different - and more helpful to
my case <grin> - definition?

- Andrew

[Roger[_4_]]

On 3 Apr 2007 12:24:40 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:

>On Mar 27, 8:22 pm, Roger > wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2007 09:31:23 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:
>>
>> >On Mar 27, 8:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
>> >> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
>> >> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
>> >> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
>> >> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>>
>> >> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
>> >> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
>> >> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
>> >> price before.
>>
>> >> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
>> >> Anyone else ever experience this?
>>
>> >I know at my airport (KTTA in NC) my flying club rents planes wet but
>>
>> Your club rents planes?
>
>Yeah, it's structured as a nonprofit corporation with the members as
>the shareholders. The corporation owns the planes and rents them to
>the members.

If you do much flying it might pay to talk to a tax lawyer for your
state and figure out a different terminology. Unless a business,
shareholders seldom rent to themselves. If we had rented to some one
outside the "club" we'd have had to pay tax, but not an hourly charge
for members.

If set up as a corporation you might want to consider becoming a club.
However I'm not familiar with your state's tax laws.

Good luck,


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:02:06 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Ray Andraka wrote:
>
>> Newps wrote:
>>
>>> It has to get below 1000 and 3? I live out west where an actual 10
>>> mile viz day really sucks. I'm not going anywhere at 1000/3. I'm not
>>> setting off for the midwest if the viz is less than 10 east of the
>>> Missouri, because that means the weather is about to be **** poor.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 10mi vis is darn good VFR here in Northeast during the summer. It's not
>> uncommon to go weeks at a time with vis between 5 and 10 mi.
>
>Too bad for you. 100 mile viz is normal here.

I've seen that maybe 4 or 5 times in my life. A couple times here and
the rest out West. <:-)) Rarely does it get above 20 here.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 08:49:46 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> Q: Who is an "employee" under the law?
>
> Which law?
>
> Working in the software business, I'd once upon a time occasion to become
> very familiar with section 1706 of the 1986 tax reform act. However...
>
> I'd assume that an "employee" is one that receives a W2. Otherwise -
> again, going with my assumption - the person is something other than an
> employee. After all, we're required to submit W2s for employees.

1099.

>
> Have you some reason to suggest use of a different - and more helpful to
> my case <grin> - definition?
>


See above.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:51:54 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>> I'd assume that an "employee" is one that receives a W2. Otherwise -
>> again, going with my assumption - the person is something other than an
>> employee. After all, we're required to submit W2s for employees.
>
> 1099.

I found:

http://www.entrepreneur.com/management/leadership/advicefromcliffennico/article59054.html

which claims that 1099s are not for employees but for:

any "independent contractor" who provided $600 or more of services to
your business

This is consistent with my understanding. I've tried to find instructions
on irs.gov regarding which document to file under different circumstances,
but that is eluding my searching.

Have you something which indicates that 1099 recipients may be considered
"employees"?

I'm not sure how much this would help anyway. All of the A&Ps or IAs with
whom we deal are either working at some multiperson shop or have set
themselves up as a shop that happens to be just them. In either case, no
1099 gets filed.

- Andrew

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:51:54 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>> I'd assume that an "employee" is one that receives a W2. Otherwise -
>>> again, going with my assumption - the person is something other than an
>>> employee. After all, we're required to submit W2s for employees.
>>
>> 1099.
>
> I found:
>
> http://www.entrepreneur.com/management/leadership/advicefromcliffennico/article59054.html
>
> which claims that 1099s are not for employees but for:
>
> any "independent contractor" who provided $600 or more of services to
> your business
>
> This is consistent with my understanding. I've tried to find instructions
> on irs.gov regarding which document to file under different circumstances,
> but that is eluding my searching.
>
> Have you something which indicates that 1099 recipients may be considered
> "employees"?
>
> I'm not sure how much this would help anyway. All of the A&Ps or IAs with
> whom we deal are either working at some multiperson shop or have set
> themselves up as a shop that happens to be just them. In either case, no
> 1099 gets filed.

If your independent contractor does not show up for work, or violates your
rules, or gives unsatisfactory performance, what do you do?

What is the _relationship_ between you and the worker?

(The point is: anyone who works for you for money, is an _employee_; you're
reading the TAX relationship.)

[xyzzy]

On Apr 10, 8:56 am, Roger > wrote:
> On 3 Apr 2007 12:24:40 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 27, 8:22 pm, Roger > wrote:
> >> On 27 Mar 2007 09:31:23 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:
>
> >> >On Mar 27, 8:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
> >> >> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
> >> >> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
> >> >> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
> >> >> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>
> >> >> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
> >> >> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
> >> >> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
> >> >> price before.
>
> >> >> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
> >> >> Anyone else ever experience this?
>
> >> >I know at my airport (KTTA in NC) my flying club rents planes wet but
>
> >> Your club rents planes?
>
> >Yeah, it's structured as a nonprofit corporation with the members as
> >the shareholders. The corporation owns the planes and rents them to
> >the members.
>
> If you do much flying it might pay to talk to a tax lawyer for your
> state and figure out a different terminology. Unless a business,
> shareholders seldom rent to themselves. If we had rented to some one
> outside the "club" we'd have had to pay tax, but not an hourly charge
> for members.
>
> If set up as a corporation you might want to consider becoming a club.
> However I'm not familiar with your state's tax laws.

It sounds like you're assuming we haven't thought this through.

I'm not on the board and was not around when the club was founded over
40 years ago, but the fact that club usually has around 150 members
with significant turnover is probably one reason it is structured like
it is. Plus we have loans and assets owned as a corporation that
would be pretty hard to unwind if we changed ownership structure, if
we even could given our state's nonprofit corporation and tax laws --
as far as I know there is no such thing as a nonprofit partnership in
my state. Then there are issues of liability, where a corporation
protects members better than a partnership, etc etc.

[RST Engineering]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...

> If your independent contractor does not show up for work,

An independent contractor, by definition, cannot "not show up for work".
One of the prime 13 rules that the IRS sets up to determine whether or not a
person is an i.c. is whether the person gets to set time, place, and methods
of doing the work. All you can specify is the result and the time and place
that the finished "product" is due.

"Matt Barrow" is a construction contractor. If I tell Mike that I want a
home built to thus and such a set of plans and due by October 31 on this
piece of property facing north by northwest, Matt is an i.c.. Matt can
choose to start building any day between now and 30 October if he wishes.
However, if I hire Matt by the hour to build that house, 5 days a week,
specifying each and every day what I want done, I've got an employee.

or violates your
> rules,

The only "rules" you can have is to specify what the product has to be, and
when and where it is to be delivered. If the i.c. does it drunk, or high,
or standing on his head, it matters not. So long as the "contract" (i.e.
the agreement for what, when, and where) is met, there can be no other
rules.

or gives unsatisfactory performance, what do you do?

Simple. Just don't call him the next time you have a contract to let.

Jim

[Roger[_4_]]

On 11 Apr 2007 06:35:11 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:

>On Apr 10, 8:56 am, Roger > wrote:
>> On 3 Apr 2007 12:24:40 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 27, 8:22 pm, Roger > wrote:
>> >> On 27 Mar 2007 09:31:23 -0700, "xyzzy" > wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Mar 27, 8:00 am, Jon Kraus > wrote:
>> >> >> Got a fuel bill from our FBO (KUMP Indianapolis Metro) the other day.
>> >> >> Not only do they charge one of the highest fuel prices around, they also
>> >> >> charge 6% Indiana sales tax on top of the 1% Indianapolis Airport
>> >> >> Authority surcharge (because they can).
>>
>> >> >> When I called to inquire about charging 6% sales tax on the fuel they
>> >> >> just said "that is how we've done it for 20 years and everyone else does
>> >> >> it like that too." I've never had a sales tax added on top of the fuel
>> >> >> price before.
>>
>> >> >> I thought that all the taxes we included in the price of the fuel?
>> >> >> Anyone else ever experience this?
>>
>> >> >I know at my airport (KTTA in NC) my flying club rents planes wet but
>>
>> >> Your club rents planes?
>>
>> >Yeah, it's structured as a nonprofit corporation with the members as
>> >the shareholders. The corporation owns the planes and rents them to
>> >the members.
>>
>> If you do much flying it might pay to talk to a tax lawyer for your
>> state and figure out a different terminology. Unless a business,
>> shareholders seldom rent to themselves. If we had rented to some one
>> outside the "club" we'd have had to pay tax, but not an hourly charge
>> for members.
>>
>> If set up as a corporation you might want to consider becoming a club.
>> However I'm not familiar with your state's tax laws.
>
>It sounds like you're assuming we haven't thought this through.

Always assume the worst.

Many times the way it was done the last 20 years isn't necessarily the
best route at present, but it does sound like something that large is
a whole different entitie.

We have some rather large clubs here, but their only assets are/is the
plane and kitty for maintenance an major.
>
>I'm not on the board and was not around when the club was founded over
>40 years ago, but the fact that club usually has around 150 members
>with significant turnover is probably one reason it is structured like
>it is. Plus we have loans and assets owned as a corporation that
>would be pretty hard to unwind if we changed ownership structure, if
>we even could given our state's nonprofit corporation and tax laws --
>as far as I know there is no such thing as a nonprofit partnership in
>my state. Then there are issues of liability, where a corporation
>protects members better than a partnership, etc etc.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> If your independent contractor does not show up for work,
>
> An independent contractor, by definition, cannot "not show up for work".
> One of the prime 13 rules that the IRS sets up to determine whether or not
> a person is an i.c. is whether the person gets to set time, place, and
> methods of doing the work. All you can specify is the result and the time
> and place that the finished "product" is due.

And that is NOT the arrangement specified in the OP.
>
> "Matt Barrow" is a construction contractor. If I tell Mike that I want a
> home built to thus and such a set of plans and due by October 31 on this
> piece of property facing north by northwest, Matt is an i.c.. Matt can
> choose to start building any day between now and 30 October if he wishes.
> However, if I hire Matt by the hour to build that house, 5 days a week,
> specifying each and every day what I want done, I've got an employee.

Well, I've seen a lot of "contractors" that work pretty much FIXED hours.
Fixed, like 8:00AM - 5:00PM M-F,,,

>
> or violates your
>> rules,
>
> The only "rules" you can have is to specify what the product has to be,
> and when and where it is to be delivered. If the i.c. does it drunk, or
> high, or standing on his head, it matters not. So long as the "contract"
> (i.e. the agreement for what, when, and where) is met, there can be no
> other rules.
>
> or gives unsatisfactory performance, what do you do?
>
> Simple. Just don't call him the next time you have a contract to let.

Like Andrew, you're using TAX definition for withholding, etc., which is
beyond the original point of 'who can be denied doing work on airport
property'.

As for your point about construction, you are quite right; if I have an
issue, I go to the genera contracotr or contractor BOSS, and not his
crewmen.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:40:33 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

> Like Andrew, you're using TAX definition for withholding, etc., which is
> beyond the original point of 'who can be denied doing work on airport
> property'.

As far as I can see, there's no specific indication as to what definition
of "employee" should be used in this context. Have you seen one?

Keep in mind, we can expect at least some airports to want to direct the
MX business as they see fit. If the relationship with the airport is
cooperative and friendly, I see no problem. But if it is less so, I can
expect the airport to refer to definitions which exclude hiring an outside
firm to do the MX.

What I need is a counter to that argument.

- Andrew