Another who pays question

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.

On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I turned
the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as indicated
by the nexrad.

Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop, they
said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its operation.

Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the problem.

Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for two
hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit they made
on the installation).

However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?

[[email protected]]

On Mar 28, 10:14 am, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
> Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
> the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>
> On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I turned
> the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as indicated
> by the nexrad.
>
> Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop, they
> said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its operation.
>
> Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the problem.
>
> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for two
> hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit they made
> on the installation).
>
> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?

If they moved the radar display and didn't check it operation I would
think twice before using them again. MHO.

[Marco Leon]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...

> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for
> two hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit
> they made on the installation).
>
> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?

I think asking to pay for the gas would be a very equitable request. If they
push back, just remind them that they put you in a potentially dangerous
situation of flying near weather with an inop radar.

Marco

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 28, 9:14 am, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
> Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
> the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>
> On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I turned
> the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as indicated
> by the nexrad.
>
> Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop, they
> said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its operation.
>
> Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the problem.
>
> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for two
> hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit they made
> on the installation).
>
> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?

That's one of those tough situations. I don't think it would be
reasonable to ask them for gas though. I've certainly never heard of
that being done.

-Robert

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:14:42 -0500, "Viperdoc"
> wrote:

>Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
>the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>
>On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I turned
>the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as indicated
>by the nexrad.
>
>Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop, they
>said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its operation.
>
>Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the problem.
>
>Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for two
>hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit they made
>on the installation).

Did your sales contract cover these kind of details? I would think an
avionics shop must run into these issues frequently, and hence their
contracts would be written in a manner to address repair of adjacent
avionics systems and transportation costs. Of course, that's probably
asking too much - it seems to me that many companies in the aviation
field simply 'wing' their operations vs being professional.

Having said that, if the radar was working when you dropped it off, I
would they pay at least the gas price for the trip. For your sake
(and the avionics shop), I hope it is a simple fix, and they did not
fry the radar.

Dealing with these types of issues are certainly a major downside to
going 'remote' for aircraft/avionics work. I find it an incredible
pain to have major work done at airports that are 15nm away, let alone
100s. This is not a knock on those shops, just the logistics of
getting to/from without the plane, or having a friend follow you
there.

[karl gruber[_1_]]

No way the shop should pay the gas. You didn't test it and it is part of the
pre-takeoff checklist.

Karl
>> Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
>> the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>>
>> On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I
>> turned
>> the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as
>> indicated
>> by the nexrad.
>>
>> Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop,
>> they
>> said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its operation.
>>
>> Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the
>> problem.
>>
>> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for
>> two
>> hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit they
>> made
>> on the installation).
>>
>> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?

[tony roberts]

I would be more inclined to explain the costs and inconvenience that I
had endured due to there error and ask if thewy had a policy for
handling situations such as this. At least it gives you a
non-confrontational starting point. From there? Who knows . . .
Looking forward to learning the outcome

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE





In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
> the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>
> On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I turned
> the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as indicated
> by the nexrad.
>
> Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop, they
> said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its operation.
>
> Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the problem.
>
> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for two
> hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit they made
> on the installation).
>
> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?

[Travis Marlatte]

Two hours of gas? No, I don't think so. That should have been checked out on
the ground and in a 20 minute test flight before leaving the area. That's
true whether they checked it or not.

Plus, if you can't prove that the unit was working before they moved the
display, you're already going into a ****ing contest as to who should foot
the bill to get it working.

I agree with the other poster who suggested that they should have verified
its operation as part of the move. If they were a good shop, they should
have checked before and after the move to protect themselves and you.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
> Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
> the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>
> On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I turned
> the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as
> indicated by the nexrad.
>
> Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop,
> they said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its
> operation.
>
> Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the
> problem.
>
> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for
> two hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit
> they made on the installation).
>
> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?
>

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

Since when is operating the radar on the ground with people around part of a
pre-flight check list? It certainly isn't in my POH.

Don't you think the installer should have at least checked the operation
prior to releasing the plane?

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

I again agree completely. They should have done a pre and post repair check
on the unit. Now, it's my word that it worked before they got the plane
(which it did).

I have done a lot of business with this shop in the past- two Garmin 330's,
two 530's, a 430, GDL 69, and stormscope. He has seen that everything that's
supposed to work does the job, and if not, is repaired ASAP. I purchased a
plane that I knew I could afford to run and maintain, and I will never defer
or do duct tape maintenance- it is the number one cause of accidents in
twins.

Yet, it's another day off of work, and over two hours of flying time (with
the newly repaired electrical system).

I have resolved never to get upset over flying and it's associated
activities. I do it at a level that I can comfortably afford, and will never
scrimp on maintenance. It's supposed to be fun and enjoyment, and if I need
stress and anxiety I can simply go to work rather than spend the day in a
flying activity.

Unlike my alternator scenario, the avionics shop guy was ****ed at his
installers when they admitted they did not check the operation of the radar
after moving it in the stack.

He willingly agreed to pay for half the gas, and I probably would have gone
flying anyway. At least on this trip I'm going to fly west around Chicago,
rather than going straight over Lake Michigan (at least on the way down).


"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
t...
> Two hours of gas? No, I don't think so. That should have been checked out
> on the ground and in a 20 minute test flight before leaving the area.
> That's true whether they checked it or not.
>
> Plus, if you can't prove that the unit was working before they moved the
> display, you're already going into a ****ing contest as to who should foot
> the bill to get it working.
>
> I agree with the other poster who suggested that they should have verified
> its operation as part of the move. If they were a good shop, they should
> have checked before and after the move to protect themselves and you.
>
> --
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK
> "Viperdoc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Had a major radio install on my Baron- a Garmin 530W and 430W. As part of
>> the install the avionics shop moved the radar display.
>>
>> On the trip home (the same trip where in IMC the alternator quit) I
>> turned the radar on, since there were some storms over my home airport as
>> indicated by the nexrad.
>>
>> Of course, the radar unit was completely dead. When I called the shop,
>> they said that they moved the unit, but that no one had checked its
>> operation.
>>
>> Now, I have to fly an hour each way to the avionics shop to fix the
>> problem.
>>
>> Who should pay for the gas? I realistically don't expect them to pay for
>> two hours of Baron flying time (which would probably negate any profit
>> they made on the installation).
>>
>> However, is it unreasonable to expect them to pay for some of the gas?
>>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Since when is operating the radar on the ground with people around part of a
> pre-flight check list? It certainly isn't in my POH.
>
> Don't you think the installer should have at least checked the operation
> prior to releasing the plane?

The problem with avionics shops is that they seem to use installers
who couldn't cut it at Best Buy installing car stereos. I've watched
'em work on my plane (three different shops, in three different
states) and in every instance the guy who was doing the actual work,
hanging upside down from the seats, was a real mouth-breather who may
have been a good bench-tech, but appeared to have little experience or
common sense.

I always assumed that I got those guys working on my plane because I
fly a lowly Cherokee -- "Hey, let's let Bob learn the ropes on that
guy's plane!" -- but maybe it's universal?

Of course, at some shops a Baron would be considered "entry level" --
so it's all relative.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[karl gruber[_1_]]

It is always on the "lineup" (pre-takeoff) checklist of every RADAR equipped
airplane I've flown.

What airplanes have you flown with RADAR?

RADAR systems have a POH supplement. It's in there.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

Try and read posts more slowly so you can understand better. At your airport
do you have people walking on the runway while you take off?


"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
> Since when is operating the radar on the ground with people around part of
> a pre-flight check list? It certainly isn't in my POH.
>
> Don't you think the installer should have at least checked the operation
> prior to releasing the plane?
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Mar 29, 9:30 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Since when is operating the radar on the ground with people around part of a
> > pre-flight check list? It certainly isn't in my POH.
>
> > Don't you think the installer should have at least checked the operation
> > prior to releasing the plane?
>
> The problem with avionics shops is that they seem to use installers
> who couldn't cut it at Best Buy installing car stereos. I've watched
> 'em work on my plane (three different shops, in three different
> states) and in every instance the guy who was doing the actual work,
> hanging upside down from the seats, was a real mouth-breather who may
> have been a good bench-tech, but appeared to have little experience or
> common sense.
>
> I always assumed that I got those guys working on my plane because I
> fly a lowly Cherokee -- "Hey, let's let Bob learn the ropes on that
> guy's plane!" -- but maybe it's universal?
>
> Of course, at some shops a Baron would be considered "entry level" --
> so it's all relative.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Ok, Jay, I gotta axe, what is a " real mouth- breather"? Jus
curious and all...

[Jay Honeck]

> Ok, Jay, I gotta axe, what is a " real mouth- breather"? Jus
> curious and all...

You know, he's that guy standing there with the dim look in his eye
and his mouth hanging open, often with that weird dried crusty crud in
the corners of his mouth. In the "city version" (circa 1967) he
would have a pocket protecter in his shirt pocket, and perhaps a slide-
rule in his back pocket.

See the movie "Deliverance" for further references to the "country
version".

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Ok, Jay, I gotta axe, what is a " real mouth- breather"? Jus
>>curious and all...
>
>
> You know, he's that guy standing there with the dim look in his eye
> and his mouth hanging open, often with that weird dried crusty crud in
> the corners of his mouth. In the "city version" (circa 1967) he
> would have a pocket protecter in his shirt pocket, and perhaps a slide-
> rule in his back pocket.
>
> See the movie "Deliverance" for further references to the "country
> version".
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
Jay, Jay, Jay,

You don't get it, a mouth-breather typically has an IQ of 60 - 70
whereas your city version typically has an IQ of 140-185. Neither is
very social, but there are many differences.

Margy