Unclear Clearance

[Travis Marlatte]

This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

I flew PWK (just north of O'Hare) to D95 (Lapeer just east of Flint,
Michigan). Went VFR across the lake but then encountered reduced vis and
lowering ceilings so I air-filed with Lansing FS over Pullman VOR. After
reading off the clearance request, Lansing said, "IFR on file. Do you need a
frequency?" Since they offered, I said yes. They said something like, "try
133.65."

I wasn't sure who was going to be on the other end so I listened for about
30 seconds before I heard someone refer to Chicago Center.

-> Me: Chicago Center, Lake 3049P is VFR over Pullman VOR and just filed
with Lansing. Destination D95. Can we pick up our clearance when you get a
chance?

-> Chicago Center: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Squawk 3143 and I'll look it
up.

15 seconds later.

-> CC: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Radar Contact and I've got your clearance
when you're ready.
-> Me: Lake 94P. Ready to copy.
-> CC: Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR then D95. Climb
maintain 5000.

For starters, that even caught me off guard since the squawk and frequency
were missing. It took me several brain ticks to realize that I was already
squawking and talking. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, she had given me the
squawk before having the clearance in hand. I half presumed that the squawk
would change. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I had told her our destination
so maybe she picked a squawk that would work. Tick. Tick. Maybe I should
stop worrying about how to do her job. Tick. Tick. But what if she
misunderstood. Tick. Tick. What if I misunderstood. Tick Tick.

After the read back of the somewhat abbreviated clearance.

-> CC: Lake 94P. Read back correct.Contact Grand Rapids approach on 128.4.

As I was switching to Grand Rapids, it occured to me that I didn't know if I
was cleared to proceed and to climb. It seemed odd to hand me off to Grand
Rapids for a release when it would have been just seconds from getting the
clearance from Chicago Center. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I was pretty
sure that when I have air-filed in the past that the readback confirmation
was followed with instructions. Tick. Tick. OK. Chicago Center was just
acting as the delivery agent and Grand Rapids would handle the release.
Tick. Tick. At least they know who I am. I've got a squawk. And I'm in radar
contact.

I had been circling in VFR conditions and remained that way until I got a
hold of Grand Rapids. I knew that Grand Rapids would just be getting the
flight strip so, when I contacted them, I said something like:

-> Me: Grand Rapids Approach, Lake 3094P just got our clearance from Chicago
Center. We're 2500 in VFR near Pullman VOR. Destination D95.

-> Grand Rapids: Lake 3094P, Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids altimeter 29.98.

Huh? That made it seem as if Grand Rapids thought that I was already cleared
on course and they were just taking the handoff. But, I wasn't sure, so I
asked.

-> Me: Grand Rapids. Lake 94P. I wasn't sure if Chicago Center cleared me on
course or not. Am I cleared on course and up to 5000?

-> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. If you need a heading, fly heading 060. And, huh,
yea, your cleared up to 5000. Let me know when you're picking up Flint VOR
and can proceed direct.

-> Me: We're GPS. Direct Flint. Climb Maintain 5000. Lake 94P

-> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. Roger.

So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?
Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids. Even if they
did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand Rapids
know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the (presumably)
computerized flight strips?

Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call? After they gave me the
altimeter setting, was I too anxious? Do you think they would have come back
with instructions? Do you still call it a release? I have always thought of
it as a release from the airport. Is it really a release into the IFR system
whether from the surface or not?

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Newps]

Travis Marlatte wrote:

> -> CC: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Radar Contact and I've got your clearance
> when you're ready.
> -> Me: Lake 94P. Ready to copy.
> -> CC: Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR then D95. Climb
> maintain 5000.
>
>
>
> So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?

They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.



> Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids.


ATC never issues a clearance and then has you get a release from AFSS.
That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
just read you your clearance.





Even if they
> did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand Rapids
> know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the (presumably)
> computerized flight strips?
>
> Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call?


Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.




After they gave me the
> altimeter setting, was I too anxious? Do you think they would have come back
> with instructions? Do you still call it a release? I have always thought of
> it as a release from the airport. Is it really a release into the IFR system
> whether from the surface or not?


You are making this way too hard. You received a clearance from a
controller. That's as good as it gets.

[Roy Smith]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote:
> So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?

Yup.

> Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids.

Nope. You only get released when you're on the ground. If you're in the
air, you've already escaped, so there's nothing to release :-)

As soon as the guy said, "Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR
then D95. Climb maintain 5000.", you should have headed direct to Flint and
started climbing.

[Peter R.]

On 4/9/2007 10:48:08 PM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:

> -> Chicago Center: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Squawk 3143 and I'll look
> it up.

The other two posters already addressed your clearance limit and altitude,
but regarding the above, let me just add that I will often pick up a
pre-filed IFR clearance in the air when departing a non-towered airport if
the weather is good VFR at both the departing airport and first 20 miles or
so en route.

In almost all cases, the controller will immediately respond to my request
with a squawk code before finding my clearance, as you experienced. This
tactic is pretty common, at least in the Northeast US and I presume that the
controller is doing this to immediately identify me on his/her scope.

This experience of yours is the classic example of how often theory (CRAFT in
that neat order) will differ from reality and the only way to become
comfortable with these numerous deviations from theory is to fly IFR often.

--
Peter

[John T]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message

>
> This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio
> traffic but it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

I think it sounds like you haven't air-filed very many IFR plans and/or
haven't departed VFR and activated IFR in the air much. :)

The controller's response was not at all unusual from my experience of, for
example, departing VFR and activating in the air (like Peter R described).
In fact, I needed to do that twice just last week where VMC prevailed at my
departure points, but I couldn't raise ATC from the ground. Rather than dig
out the cell phone and get a clearance void time via landline, I simply
departed VFR and activated in the air. Both conversations were very much
like you described:

"N123, squawk 4321."

"N123, Cleared to [destination] as filed, climb and maintain [5000]."

As Newps described, once I heard "cleared to" and "as filed," I immediately
proceeded on course and continued climbing to altitude.

When activating in the air, CRAFT doesn't seem to apply. It's more "T,CRA."
(Let me know if you think of a nifty mnemonic.) The controllers seem to want
to identify you on radar while finding your P-strip or preparing to enter
your plan.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

[Travis Marlatte]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
>
> They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
> your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.

I'll take your word for it but it seems cut and dried only for a clearance
delivery. It was a separate step of activation that I was missing.

>
>> Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids.
>
> ATC never issues a clearance and then has you get a release from AFSS.

I'll agree with that. "Grand Rapids" referred to Grand Rapids Approach who
handled me until handoff to Lansing Approach then to Flint Approach.

> That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
> just read you your clearance.

That seems like a strong statement that only applies in a small number of
scenarios. My experience is that I very rarely get a release from the guy
who just read me my clearance.

>
> Even if they
>> did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand
>> Rapids know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the
>> (presumably) computerized flight strips?
>>
>> Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call?
>
>
> Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.

Unless it's in the wrong context. Every time I get a clearance from
Clearance Delivery on the ground I get a "Cleared to ..." but that doesn't
consitute a release.

>
> You are making this way too hard. You received a clearance from a
> controller. That's as good as it gets.
>

Everyone seems to agree so I'll take this lesson and move on.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Andrew Sarangan]

I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.





On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte" >
wrote:
> This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
> it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...
>
> I flew PWK (just north of O'Hare) to D95 (Lapeer just east of Flint,
> Michigan). Went VFR across the lake but then encountered reduced vis and
> lowering ceilings so I air-filed with Lansing FS over Pullman VOR. After
> reading off the clearance request, Lansing said, "IFR on file. Do you need a
> frequency?" Since they offered, I said yes. They said something like, "try
> 133.65."
>
> I wasn't sure who was going to be on the other end so I listened for about
> 30 seconds before I heard someone refer to Chicago Center.
>
> -> Me: Chicago Center, Lake 3049P is VFR over Pullman VOR and just filed
> with Lansing. Destination D95. Can we pick up our clearance when you get a
> chance?
>
> -> Chicago Center: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Squawk 3143 and I'll look it
> up.
>
> 15 seconds later.
>
> -> CC: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Radar Contact and I've got your clearance
> when you're ready.
> -> Me: Lake 94P. Ready to copy.
> -> CC: Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR then D95. Climb
> maintain 5000.
>
> For starters, that even caught me off guard since the squawk and frequency
> were missing. It took me several brain ticks to realize that I was already
> squawking and talking. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, she had given me the
> squawk before having the clearance in hand. I half presumed that the squawk
> would change. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I had told her our destination
> so maybe she picked a squawk that would work. Tick. Tick. Maybe I should
> stop worrying about how to do her job. Tick. Tick. But what if she
> misunderstood. Tick. Tick. What if I misunderstood. Tick Tick.
>
> After the read back of the somewhat abbreviated clearance.
>
> -> CC: Lake 94P. Read back correct.Contact Grand Rapids approach on 128.4.
>
> As I was switching to Grand Rapids, it occured to me that I didn't know if I
> was cleared to proceed and to climb. It seemed odd to hand me off to Grand
> Rapids for a release when it would have been just seconds from getting the
> clearance from Chicago Center. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I was pretty
> sure that when I have air-filed in the past that the readback confirmation
> was followed with instructions. Tick. Tick. OK. Chicago Center was just
> acting as the delivery agent and Grand Rapids would handle the release.
> Tick. Tick. At least they know who I am. I've got a squawk. And I'm in radar
> contact.
>
> I had been circling in VFR conditions and remained that way until I got a
> hold of Grand Rapids. I knew that Grand Rapids would just be getting the
> flight strip so, when I contacted them, I said something like:
>
> -> Me: Grand Rapids Approach, Lake 3094P just got our clearance from Chicago
> Center. We're 2500 in VFR near Pullman VOR. Destination D95.
>
> -> Grand Rapids: Lake 3094P, Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids altimeter 29.98.
>
> Huh? That made it seem as if Grand Rapids thought that I was already cleared
> on course and they were just taking the handoff. But, I wasn't sure, so I
> asked.
>
> -> Me: Grand Rapids. Lake 94P. I wasn't sure if Chicago Center cleared me on
> course or not. Am I cleared on course and up to 5000?
>
> -> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. If you need a heading, fly heading 060. And, huh,
> yea, your cleared up to 5000. Let me know when you're picking up Flint VOR
> and can proceed direct.
>
> -> Me: We're GPS. Direct Flint. Climb Maintain 5000. Lake 94P
>
> -> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. Roger.
>
> So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?
> Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids. Even if they
> did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand Rapids
> know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the (presumably)
> computerized flight strips?
>
> Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call? After they gave me the
> altimeter setting, was I too anxious? Do you think they would have come back
> with instructions? Do you still call it a release? I have always thought of
> it as a release from the airport. Is it really a release into the IFR system
> whether from the surface or not?
>
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK

[Travis Marlatte]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
> cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
> instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
> Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
> on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.

I dunno.

I guess I am more used to the three-step process of filing the clearance,
receiving the clearance, and finally being released into the system. On the
ground, that always happens.

Someone suggested that I don't air-file very often. That's probably true in
the big scheme of things but I have done it a good number of times. I don't
ever remember questioning whether I was really cleared or not before so
maybe I'm just having a brain fade.

I think I was expecting something like, "readback correct. Proceed on
course. Climb maintain 5000."

Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
the controller a chance to manage their airspace. In my mind, I'm leaving
room for something different. Such as, "readback correct. Fly heading 030
for traffic. Climb maintain 3000. I'll have higher for you in a few miles."

OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 06:11:19 GMT, "Travis Marlatte"
> wrote:

>I guess I am more used to the three-step process of filing the clearance,
>receiving the clearance, and finally being released into the system. On the
>ground, that always happens.

It rarely happens to me except at tower controlled airfields. Receiving a
clearance at my home base, I will be issued a Void Time, but the clearance
is active immediately, unless otherwise explicitly stated.

At a tower controlled airfield, I will receive the clearance during taxi or
runup. But then have to await takeoff clearance.

>
>Someone suggested that I don't air-file very often. That's probably true in
>the big scheme of things but I have done it a good number of times. I don't
>ever remember questioning whether I was really cleared or not before so
>maybe I'm just having a brain fade.
>
>I think I was expecting something like, "readback correct. Proceed on
>course. Climb maintain 5000."
>
>Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
>turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
>the controller a chance to manage their airspace. In my mind, I'm leaving
>room for something different. Such as, "readback correct. Fly heading 030
>for traffic. Climb maintain 3000. I'll have higher for you in a few miles."

If ATC required that you delay executing your clearance, they would most
likely have delayed issuing the clearance, in your situation.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Andrew Sarangan]

When ATC says you are "cleared" that is exactly what that means. You
are ok to proceed from that instant. The exceptions are when they add
"hold for release". At tower controlled airports, you are actually on
hold for release because you need a separate clearance for takeoff, at
which point you are considered to be released into the system.



On Apr 11, 2:11 am, "Travis Marlatte" >
wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
>
> >I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
> > cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
> > instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
> > Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
> > on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.
>
> I dunno.
>
> I guess I am more used to the three-step process of filing the clearance,
> receiving the clearance, and finally being released into the system. On the
> ground, that always happens.
>
> Someone suggested that I don't air-file very often. That's probably true in
> the big scheme of things but I have done it a good number of times. I don't
> ever remember questioning whether I was really cleared or not before so
> maybe I'm just having a brain fade.
>
> I think I was expecting something like, "readback correct. Proceed on
> course. Climb maintain 5000."
>
> Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
> turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
> the controller a chance to manage their airspace. In my mind, I'm leaving
> room for something different. Such as, "readback correct. Fly heading 030
> for traffic. Climb maintain 3000. I'll have higher for you in a few miles."
>
> OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
> problem!" so I guess it's just me.
> --
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK

[Peter R.]

On 4/11/2007 2:11:19 AM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:

> OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
> problem!" so I guess it's just me.

Travis, you were wise to ask about this scenario here. Do not take the few
"duh!" replies personally. This is a discussion group that serves more than
just the contributors. There were most likely many more in lurk mode who
benefited from your legitimate question and the responses it received.

--
Peter

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/11/07 07:22, Peter R. wrote:
> On 4/11/2007 2:11:19 AM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:
>
>> OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
>> problem!" so I guess it's just me.
>
> Travis, you were wise to ask about this scenario here. Do not take the few
> "duh!" replies personally. This is a discussion group that serves more than
> just the contributors. There were most likely many more in lurk mode who
> benefited from your legitimate question and the responses it received.
>

I'll second that! - Travis: Thanks for bringing this up.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Newps]

Travis Marlatte wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>
>>
>>They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
>>your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.
>
>
> I'll take your word for it but it seems cut and dried only for a clearance
> delivery. It was a separate step of activation that I was missing.

There's nothing to miss, you're talking to the guy who's responsible for
the airspace.



>>That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
>>just read you your clearance.
>
>
> That seems like a strong statement that only applies in a small number of
> scenarios. My experience is that I very rarely get a release from the guy
> who just read me my clearance.


When you are flying along and a controller reads you a clearance that is
always the case.



>>Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.
>
>
> Unless it's in the wrong context. Every time I get a clearance from
> Clearance Delivery on the ground I get a "Cleared to ..." but that doesn't
> consitute a release.

You have to separate in the air from on the ground, totally different
situations.

[Newps]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
> cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
> instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
> Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
> on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.

With the exception being the controller gave him a code and then said he
was going to look for his clearance. If he finds one it will have a
different code on the strip so either the pilot will have to change
codes or the controller will have to make an ammendment on the flight
plan. That's working too hard.

[Newps]

Travis Marlatte wrote:


>
> Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
> turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
> the controller a chance to manage their airspace.


The airspace management happened before he read you the clearance.
Besides you're flying at 120 knots, it's hard for you to cause problems.

[Scott Skylane]

Newps wrote:
/snip/
> Besides you're flying at 120 knots, it's hard for you to cause problems.
>
>
Hey, Travis never said anything about being in a power dive ;)

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
(Ducking from the Lake drivers around here!)

[Guillermo]

On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte" >
wrote:
> This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
> it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

As many people already stated, once you hear the magic words "cleared
to", it means you are already in the system, under IFR (you can now
fly in the clouds and do whatever they told you to do)

I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.
When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

[Jose]

> 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
> clearance to FTY"
>
> JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
> clearance in a few minutes"
>
> 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
> "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
> this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
> clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.
>
> So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
> clearance.

Well, that was an improperly delivered clearance. What do you do if you
lose comm? (I suppose fly your flight plan, and hope he actually finds it.)

> When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
> though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

No, I would not rely on that to be true, at least not without asking
=explicitly= if I am IFR.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/12/07 21:13, Guillermo wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte" >
> wrote:
>> This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
>> it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...
>
> As many people already stated, once you hear the magic words "cleared
> to", it means you are already in the system, under IFR (you can now
> fly in the clouds and do whatever they told you to do)
>
> I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
> departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:
>
> 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
> clearance to FTY"
>
> JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
> clearance in a few minutes"
>
> 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
> "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
> this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
> clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.
>
> So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
> clearance.
> When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
> though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
words "Cleared to...". In such a situation, I think the correct thing
to do is ask, as you did. However, I don't think what the controller
initially gave you should generally be interpreted as a clearance.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Ron Natalie]

Mark Hansen wrote:

> I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
> words "Cleared to...".
Really, what FAR would that be? The FARs aren't much on phraseology.

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/13/07 10:35, Ron Natalie wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>> I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
>> words "Cleared to...".
> Really, what FAR would that be? The FARs aren't much on phraseology.
>

That's a good question. During my IR training, I was taught that a
clearance must contain a certain set of items, one of which was
the "Cleared To...".

However, in looking at the FARs now, I don't see anything like that.
Even the AIM says that a clearance "may contain" the item(s). I don't
even see where the 7110.65 states that the clearance must contain these
items - it just says "issue the following items as appropriate...".

Hmmm, back to the books ;-\


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Roy Smith]

"Guillermo" > wrote:
> I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
> departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:
>
> 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
> clearance to FTY"
>
> JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
> clearance in a few minutes"
>
> 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
> "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
> this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
> clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
limit. On the other hand, once you clarified your IFR status with the
controller, everybody is on the same page, even if the right magic words
weren't spoken. I'm not sure how you were supposed to navigate, but I
guess I would just continue on my present heading.

Whenever I'm not 100% I understand a clearance, I just read it back the way
I'm planning on executing it; this gives the controller a chance to correct
any errors (and gets it on the tape). In your case, I would have read back
something like, "70V is IFR at this time, 3500 climbing 5000, XXX heading".

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:
> "Guillermo" > wrote:
>> I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
>> departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:
>>
>> 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
>> clearance to FTY"
>>
>> JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
>> clearance in a few minutes"
>>
>> 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
>> "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
>> this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
>> clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.
>
> Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
> limit.

To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
it, but none say it *must*).



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>
> To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
> me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
> I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
> which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
> it, but none say it *must*).
>

SeeFAA Order 7110.65 paragraphs 4-2-1 and 4-3-2.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/ATC.pdf

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Apr 14, 12:45 pm, Mark Hansen > wrote:
> On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Guillermo" > wrote:
> >> I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
> >> departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:
>
> >> 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
> >> clearance to FTY"
>
> >> JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
> >> clearance in a few minutes"
>
> >> 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
> >> "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
> >> this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
> >> clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.
>
> > Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
> > limit.
>
> To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
> me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
> I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
> which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
> it, but none say it *must*).
>


It is in AIM 4-4-3. But you are correct that it says "clearances
normally contain the following". However, how can you consider this a
valid clearance if you don't know where you are cleared to?

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/14/07 10:38, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:45 pm, Mark Hansen > wrote:
>> On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Guillermo" > wrote:
>> >> I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
>> >> departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:
>>
>> >> 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
>> >> clearance to FTY"
>>
>> >> JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
>> >> clearance in a few minutes"
>>
>> >> 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
>> >> "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
>> >> this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
>> >> clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.
>>
>> > Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
>> > limit.
>>
>> To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
>> me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
>> I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
>> which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
>> it, but none say it *must*).
>>
>
>
> It is in AIM 4-4-3. But you are correct that it says "clearances
> normally contain the following". However, how can you consider this a
> valid clearance if you don't know where you are cleared to?
>
>
>

The point is that there is no "rule" which states that for it to be valid,
it must.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA