Temporarily deviating from IFR

[Mxsmanic]

You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright, clear
weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see what
looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd like to
investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.

Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do you
handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going to swing
south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something out. Do you ask
ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you cancel IFR to go take a
look? Is there a way of suspending IFR temporarily so that you can leave your
planned route and altitude and check out the source of the smoke? What's the
procedure?

On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever happened to
you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible case
of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a look
and/or report it to ATC?

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[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright,
> clear weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a
> short distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully,
> you see what looks like a stranded car with some people standing
> around it. You'd like to investigate just to see if it might be
> someone who needs help.
>
> Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do
> you handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going
> to swing south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something
> out. Do you ask ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you
> cancel IFR to go take a look? Is there a way of suspending IFR
> temporarily so that you can leave your planned route and altitude and
> check out the source of the smoke? What's the procedure?
>
> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever
> happened to you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked
> like a possible case of people in distress on the ground and decided
> to go over and take a look and/or report it to ATC?

Yep, happened to me. I saw a ship spewing oil. I went closer (IFR in an
airliner, yet) to have a look.
Semd me 100$ and I'll tell you how it all worked.

Bertie

[Newps]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright, clear
> weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
> distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see what
> looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd like to
> investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.
>
> Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do you
> handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going to swing
> south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something out. Do you ask
> ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you cancel IFR to go take a
> look? Is there a way of suspending IFR temporarily so that you can leave your
> planned route and altitude and check out the source of the smoke? What's the
> procedure?
>
> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever happened to
> you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible case
> of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a look
> and/or report it to ATC?




Sure, you can....well nevermind.

[gpaleo]

Why don't you ever stop??
You've had you fun with the group, do something constructive for yourself,
instead of wasting away laughing your ass off with us.
Shoo.
Go away.
Do something else.
Shoo.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 10, 12:49 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright, clear
> weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
> distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see what
> looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd like to
> investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.
>
> Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do you
> handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going to swing
> south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something out. Do you ask
> ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you cancel IFR to go take a
> look? Is there a way of suspending IFR temporarily so that you can leave your
> planned route and altitude and check out the source of the smoke? What's the
> procedure?
>
> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever happened to
> you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible case
> of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a look
> and/or report it to ATC?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Sometimes if you see someone who's life seems to be in danger you can
jump out and parachute down to save them.

-Robert

[Mxsmanic]

Danny Deger writes:

> The call would be something like, "Request deviation 10 miles north of
> course, altitude block of 2,000 to 3,000 feet and 3 360s to investegate a
> possible car in distress." But, if the weather is VFR, "Cancel IFR" might
> be the best call.

Can you reactivate an IFR flight plan after cancelling it and continue from
some point within the plan, or do you have to file a brand new one if you want
to return to IFR.

I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."

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[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright,
> clear
> weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
> distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see
> what
> looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd like
> to
> investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.
>
> Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do you
> handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going to swing
> south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something out. Do you
> ask
> ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you cancel IFR to go take
> a
> look? Is there a way of suspending IFR temporarily so that you can leave
> your
> planned route and altitude and check out the source of the smoke? What's
> the
> procedure?
>
> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever happened
> to
> you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible
> case
> of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a look
> and/or report it to ATC?
>

Why do you insist on cross posting everthing?

[Danny Deger]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright,
> clear
> weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
> distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see
> what
> looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd like
> to
> investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.

Simple -- request deviations in the direction needed by the distance needed,
request an altitude block, and request the correct number of 360 degree
turns.

The call would be something like, "Request deviation 10 miles north of
course, altitude block of 2,000 to 3,000 feet and 3 360s to investegate a
possible car in distress." But, if the weather is VFR, "Cancel IFR" might
be the best call.

Danny Deger

>
> Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do you
> handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going to swing
> south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something out. Do you
> ask
> ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you cancel IFR to go take
> a
> look? Is there a way of suspending IFR temporarily so that you can leave
> your
> planned route and altitude and check out the source of the smoke? What's
> the
> procedure?
>
> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever happened
> to
> you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible
> case
> of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a look
> and/or report it to ATC?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Danny Deger writes:
>
>> The call would be something like, "Request deviation 10 miles north
>> of course, altitude block of 2,000 to 3,000 feet and 3 360s to
>> investegate a possible car in distress." But, if the weather is VFR,
>> "Cancel IFR" might be the best call.
>
> Can you reactivate an IFR flight plan after cancelling it and continue
> from some point within the plan, or do you have to file a brand new
> one if you want to return to IFR.
>
> I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."

What's it to you? You'll never fly.


Bertie

[Danny Deger]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Danny Deger writes:
>
>> The call would be something like, "Request deviation 10 miles north of
>> course, altitude block of 2,000 to 3,000 feet and 3 360s to investegate a
>> possible car in distress." But, if the weather is VFR, "Cancel IFR"
>> might
>> be the best call.
>
> Can you reactivate an IFR flight plan after cancelling it and continue
> from
> some point within the plan, or do you have to file a brand new one if you
> want
> to return to IFR.
>
> I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."

You are correct. Once you cancel, you have to refile.

Danny Deger

[Jose]

>>I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."
> You are correct. Once you cancel, you have to refile.

If you are VMC and expect to remain so, you could request "VFR on top"
and a course deviation. If they don't have to hold a hard altitude for
you, they may be more flexible in granting deviations.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Al G[_1_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright,
>> clear
>> weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
>> distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see
>> what
>> looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd
>> like to
>> investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.
>>
>> Given that you're on an IFR flight plan and under ATC control, how do you
>> handle this? I presume you can't just tell ATC that you're going to
>> swing
>> south and drop to 2000 feet for a while to check something out. Do you
>> ask
>> ATC to vector you towards the stranded car? Do you cancel IFR to go take
>> a
>> look? Is there a way of suspending IFR temporarily so that you can leave
>> your
>> planned route and altitude and check out the source of the smoke? What's
>> the
>> procedure?
>>
>> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever
>> happened to
>> you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible
>> case
>> of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a
>> look
>> and/or report it to ATC?
>
>
>
>
> Sure, you can....well nevermind.

Oh Yea, the old "Burning Car in the Desert" trick.

Al G

[James M. Knox]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Can you reactivate an IFR flight plan after cancelling it and continue
> from some point within the plan, or do you have to file a brand new
> one if you want to return to IFR.
>
> I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."

Certainly not in those words. There *is* such a thing as a compound
flight plan. This is used where you want to transition from IFR to VFR
or VFR to IFR at a certain point. However, the very few folks I know
who have ever tried to file such a thing have always run into problems
(controller doesn't understand, thing gets munged in the computer,
etc.). Usually easier to file TWO flight plans, one VFR and one IFR,
that swap off at some point. Or, more commonly, just request the change
in the air.

There is also a /D+xx that can be filed. It's used (at least in theory)
when you want to "suspend" the IFR flight for a few minutes at an
airport, usually to pick up or drop off a passenger. You file the route
something like CWK V17 TPL/D+15 V17 ACT where TPL is the Temple Texas
airport and you are going to be on the ground 15 minutes or less.

The problem is, it almost never works. Controllers have forgotten what
it means, and they don't like to have to keep the airspace sanitized
while you are on the ground. They would again much prefer you to simply
file TWO flight plans (in this case, one to TPL and one from TPL).

For the case you described that started this thread, the usual case is
simply to request deviations as needed. But IFR is really *not* for
sightseeing. [That's why airlines fly IFR always, now. They used to
always "sightsee" in good weather, until the day two of them ran into
each other over the Grand Canyon. After that the rules changed.]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1300 Koenig Lane West fax 512-371-5716
Suite 200
Austin, Tx 78756
-----------------------------------------------

[Newps]

James M. Knox wrote:

> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Can you reactivate an IFR flight plan after cancelling it and continue
>>from some point within the plan, or do you have to file a brand new
>>one if you want to return to IFR.
>>
>>I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."
>
>
> Certainly not in those words.




You guys sure make this hard. The IFR system is not that rigid.

[Mxsmanic]

Newps writes:

> You guys sure make this hard. The IFR system is not that rigid.

But there does seem to be a gulf between what is theoretically and formally
allowed and what actually works in practice.

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[Jim Stewart]

James M. Knox wrote:

> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Can you reactivate an IFR flight plan after cancelling it and continue
>>from some point within the plan, or do you have to file a brand new
>>one if you want to return to IFR.
>>
>>I take it there's no such thing as "suspend IFR."

snipped reply...

> For the case you described that started this thread, the usual case is
> simply to request deviations as needed. But IFR is really *not* for
> sightseeing. [That's why airlines fly IFR always, now. They used to
> always "sightsee" in good weather, until the day two of them ran into
> each other over the Grand Canyon. After that the rules changed.]

I was on a commercial flight years ago with an
active COM feed to the SLF headsets. Ours and
several other planes were picking their way through
a storm front and were continually requesting
10-20 degree right and left deviations to avoid
weather.

[Dave Butler]

> I was on a commercial flight years ago with an
> active COM feed to the SLF headsets. Ours and
> several other planes were picking their way through
> a storm front and were continually requesting
> 10-20 degree right and left deviations to avoid
> weather.

Sure. That's what the Garmin 396/496 is for. The big boys have on-board
radar, of course. When there are storms about the frequency is full of
such requests.

[Thomas Borchert]

Mxsmanic,

> But there does seem to be a gulf between what is theoretically and formally
> allowed and what actually works in practice.
>

Not at all. It's all exactly the way it is in your game. No difference
between simulation and real life, remember?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mxsmanic]

Thomas Borchert writes:

> Not at all. It's all exactly the way it is in your game. No difference
> between simulation and real life, remember?

The gulf I discussed applied entirely to real life, independent of any
simulation.

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[David Cartwright]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> You're flying happily over the desert in your small plane, in bright,
> clear
> weather, on your IFR flight plan. You notice a plume of smoke a short
> distance away at your nine o'clock, and looking more carefully, you see
> what
> looks like a stranded car with some people standing around it. You'd like
> to
> investigate just to see if it might be someone who needs help.

So just tell ATC what you've seen and tell them you'd like to go have a
look. If, for whatever reason, they can't accommodate you, they'll probably
ask you to tell them as accurately as possible where the incident has
happened so they can alert the police or whoever. If, on the other hand,
they can handle a deviation, they'll co-ordinate this deviation with you.
They'll leave getting there up to you - don't expect them to vector you
there (let's face it, they know exactly where you are right now, but the
chances are you'll be telling them something like "about five miles to the
northwest", and they can't exactly give you an accurate course).

If the problem appears potentially serious (e.g. there's a car on fire
upside-down in a field, thus implying that it mightn't be visible from the
road, so the emergency services mightn't be aware) then declare a PAN. The
controller can then give you the required priority, and other pilots on
frequency will be aware of what's going on as they'll hear it's a PAN call.

> On a related note (whence the crosspost to r.a.p.), has this ever happened
> to
> you? That is, have you ever seen something that looked like a possible
> case
> of people in distress on the ground and decided to go over and take a look
> and/or report it to ATC?

Well, it happened to me (and presumably everyone else) on my PPL radio exam.
Actually, what I mean is that the "PAN" part of the oral exam involved me
supposedly spotting a life-raft in the water below me and reporting it to
ATC via a PAN call.

I've never had something like this for real, but there was one occasion when
I knew an instructor from our club was considering sending someone on a solo
navex in a particular area, and once I got airborne for my own flight I saw
that the conditions differed markedly from the forecast/actuals report. I
asked ATC to relay a message to the club to say that the weather down there
wasn't up to a solo student on a navex, which they kindly did.

David C

[Denny]

In a real urgent situation I can guarantee you that what comes out of
my mouth will resemble MAYDAY far more than it will PAN <whatever the
hell that means in French>////

denny

[Mxsmanic]

David Cartwright writes:

> Well, it happened to me (and presumably everyone else) on my PPL radio exam.
> Actually, what I mean is that the "PAN" part of the oral exam involved me
> supposedly spotting a life-raft in the water below me and reporting it to
> ATC via a PAN call.

I didn't know you could make a PAN call for another aircraft. I thought PAN
and MAYDAY only applied to your own aircraft. I guess it makes sense to have
some sort of special call you can make, and PAN is probably the more
reasonable of the two, since you aren't actually in danger yourself.

> I've never had something like this for real, but there was one occasion when
> I knew an instructor from our club was considering sending someone on a solo
> navex in a particular area, and once I got airborne for my own flight I saw
> that the conditions differed markedly from the forecast/actuals report. I
> asked ATC to relay a message to the club to say that the weather down there
> wasn't up to a solo student on a navex, which they kindly did.

There are transcripts of ATC traffic when aircraft have gone down and others
have observed it. Most of the time other pilots are pretty calm, although
there might be a certain tenseness to their voice when they see the aircraft
hit the water or ground. The greatest departure from the norm I've heard or
read in such transcripts was after TWA 800 exploded, when one pilot said "God
bless 'em."

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[Mxsmanic]

Denny writes:

> In a real urgent situation I can guarantee you that what comes out of
> my mouth will resemble MAYDAY far more than it will PAN <whatever the
> hell that means in French>////

Even if it's another aircraft and not your own? It's important to stay calm
in emergencies.

MAYDAY comes from "m'aider" (help me) and PAN comes from "panne" (breakdown).

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[Mxsmanic]

Mxsmanic is a Troll writes:

> Just press the pause button and take a few deep breaths ...
> You'll be just fine.

The test of steady nerves is an emergency when no pause button exists.

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