IFR GNS 430 with expired database

[Jose]

I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has
an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if
it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.

True?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

If the database has expired you can still use the 430 for enroute
IFR provided you manually verify the fixes you use. So what you were
told was rubbish. It neither has to be placarded nor turned off and
you can even use it - but not for approaches.

Ed


On Apr 15, 8:18 pm, Jose > wrote:
> I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has
> an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if
> it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
> without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.
>
> True?
>
> Jose
> --
> Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dave S]

Jose wrote:
> I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has
> an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if
> it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
> without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.
>
> True?
>
> Jose


You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches
without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the
out of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G,
since you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS
approach, assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR
GPS certification.


Dave

[Peter R.]

On 4/15/2007 11:18:31 PM, Jose wrote:

> I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has
> an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if
> it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
> without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.

Check the GPS's supplement in the back of the POH. From what I remember (it
has been a couple years since I read my 430 supplement) there is a sentence
or two about expired databases.

--
Peter

[Mark T. Dame]

Jose wrote:
> I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has
> an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if
> it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
> without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.

From what I was told by the DE who did my commercial checkride, you can
use an IFR approved GPS with an expired database for enroute navigation,
including filing /G, as long as the database contains all of the
waypoints you will be using on your flight. You may not use it for
approaches with an expired database.

Regardless, an expired database wouldn't prevent you from filing /A (or
/U as appropriate) and flying the airways. All that is required is that
you have the navigation equipment on board that is required to navigate
the planned route. So if you have a VOR receiver, you can file and fly
the airways regardless of the status of your GPS. Worst case is that it
would fall back to the same category as a handheld.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## CP-ASEL, AGI
## <insert tail number here>
## KHAO, KISZ
"The world market for computers is approximately five units."
-- Thomas J. Watson, President, IBM Corporation, 1950.

[Dave Butler]

Jose wrote:
> I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has
> an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if
> it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
> without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.

pedantic answer:
The restrictions are spelled out in the Approved Flight Manual
Supplement. Most installations of a particular make and model (like
Garmin 430) have identical AFMSs, but since the AFMS is approved on a
aircraft-by-aircraft basis, it's possible there can be differences.
There is no general answer to your question. You have to read the AFMS
for the specific aircraft.

Dave

[Paul kgyy]

There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
really using the database.

[Peter R.]

On 4/16/2007 9:47:22 AM, Dave Butler wrote:

> pedantic answer:

I am not sure why you consider the suggestion of reading the supplement a
pedantic answer.

--
Peter

[Peter Clark]

On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" >
wrote:

>There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
>flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
>really using the database.

What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

[Ronnie]

Well, I for one, had to go look up the meaning of pedantic. I'm glad I
did. I now have a new, fancy word to use in place of nit-picky :-)




"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 4/16/2007 9:47:22 AM, Dave Butler wrote:
>
>> pedantic answer:
>
> I am not sure why you consider the suggestion of reading the supplement a
> pedantic answer.
>
> --
> Peter

[Dave S]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
>>flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
>>really using the database.
>
>
> What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
> NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
> can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

Yes.. you can.

If you can fly a plain ILS, LOC or VOR approach, you can use a 430
without a current database. You can still confirm cross radials and such
without an IFR GPS.

Dave

[[email protected]]

On Apr 16, 6:01 pm, Dave S > wrote:
> Peter Clark wrote:
> > On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" >
> > wrote:

> > What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
> > NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
> > can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.
>
> Yes.. you can.

Indeed. The usual verbiage is

"IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot
verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected
waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data."

NDB and DME substitution on non-GPS missed approaches is a terminal
operation.

[Paul kgyy]

> >There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
> >flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
> >really using the database.
>
> What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
> NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
> can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

It depends on the HP - often it's a return to the OM using a
backcourse, or a nearby VOR, or intersection of 2 VOR radials. None
of these requires the database. Even an NDB would work if you have
ADF on board.

[Al G[_1_]]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Jose wrote:
>> I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an
>> operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it
>> is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
>> without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.
>>
>> True?
>>
>> Jose
>
>
> You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches
> without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the out
> of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G, since
> you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS approach,
> assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR GPS
> certification.
>
>
> Dave

That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You
can't file /G with an expired database.

Al G

[[email protected]]

On Apr 17, 8:03 am, paul kgyy > wrote:
> > >There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
> > >flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
> > >really using the database.
>
> > What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
> > NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
> > can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.
>
> It depends on the HP - often it's a return to the OM using a
> backcourse, or a nearby VOR, or intersection of 2 VOR radials. None
> of these requires the database. Even an NDB would work if you have
> ADF on board

From the Garmin manual: ( I have similar verbiage in my AFM
supplement. Yours could conceivably differ.)

"You may file your flightplan as /G if your GNS430 is a certified A1
(approach approved) or A2 (enroute and terminal only) installation. If
you are flying enroute, you may file /G with an expired database only
after you have verified all route waypoints. Non-precision approaches
may not be flown with an expired database. See your approved Airplane
Flight Manual for more information."

So to comment on an earlier point, you can still file /G, even with
an expired database, under the restrictions pointed out earlier. Note
you can file /G with a C129(A2) installation for which approaches are
never approved!

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

[Peter Clark]

On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:

> It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
>prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
>airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
a current database.

[Jose]

>> It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
>> prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
>> airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.
>
> I don't think anyone does,

Actually, somebody influential in our club does think this.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Bob Gardner]

"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
>I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an
>operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is
>placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without
>the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.
>
> True?
>
> Jose
> --
> Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


Jose, let me repeat what I have said many times: When you are told something
like this, ask for documentation. There are far too many pilots who are
willing to swallow a story whole without question, and far too many
instructors who simply pass on what they have been told by someone else.

Bob Gardner

[[email protected]]

On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:
>
> > It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
> >prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
> >airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.
>
> I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
> to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
> or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
> ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
> a current database.

Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
box with a current database. However, if the *missed approach*
requires say, for you to navigate to an NDB for which you are
substituting GPS, that is a terminal operation which only requires
C129(A2) certification and can be flown with an expired database,
provided you have validated the NDB lat/lon.
Earlier in the thread you specified substituting GPS for the MAPH
HP. That is the second situation.

[Peter Clark]

On 17 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, wrote:

>On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Peter Clark
> wrote:
>> On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:
>>
>> > It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
>> >prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
>> >airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.
>>
>> I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
>> to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
>> or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
>> ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
>> a current database.
>
> Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
>approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
>box with a current database. However, if the *missed approach*
>requires say, for you to navigate to an NDB for which you are
>substituting GPS, that is a terminal operation which only requires
>C129(A2) certification and can be flown with an expired database,
>provided you have validated the NDB lat/lon.
> Earlier in the thread you specified substituting GPS for the MAPH
>HP. That is the second situation.

I don't have my supplements or manuals handy, but does that apply even
if the NDB blah is loaded as part of the approach procedure?

[[email protected]]

On Apr 17, 2:39 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Peter Clark
> > wrote:
> >> On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:
>
> >> > It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
> >> >prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
> >> >airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.
>
> >> I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
> >> to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
> >> or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
> >> ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
> >> a current database.
>
> > Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
> >approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
> >box with a current database. However, if the *missed approach*
> >requires say, for you to navigate to an NDB for which you are
> >substituting GPS, that is a terminal operation which only requires
> >C129(A2) certification and can be flown with an expired database,
> >provided you have validated the NDB lat/lon.
> > Earlier in the thread you specified substituting GPS for the MAPH
> >HP. That is the second situation.
>
> I don't have my supplements or manuals handy, but does that apply even
> if the NDB blah is loaded as part of the approach procedure?

Presumably a non-GPS approach - since you can't fly a GPS approach
with an expired database. So, I don't see why it would matter whether
you had the approach loaded or not, since it won't be primary for
navigation until the missed approach segment. (Let's say, for
instance, we are flying the ILS 25R LVK, for which ADF is required
only for the missed approach) Whatever fixes that you loaded for the
miss, however you loaded them, would need to be verified to fly with
an expired database. At the miss you will be going direct to REIGA
NDB, using the GPS to substitute. Whether REIGA was just a "direct-
to" or the last in the string of fixes, which were otherwise unused is
immaterial. You just have to verify nobody moved the NDB.

[kevmor]

How do you verify waypoints when your database is expired, do you
compare the coordinates to a current chart?

[[email protected]]

On Apr 17, 2:56 pm, kevmor > wrote:
> How do you verify waypoints when your database is expired, do you
> compare the coordinates to a current chart?

That would be a reasonable sanity-check in flight. With advance
warning you could grab them out of a database. http://www.airnav.com
is convenient.

[Ron Natalie]

\
>
> That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You
> can't file /G with an expired database.
>
Jepp has no say in the matter.

[Ron A.[_2_]]

I have been told that you can look at the revision date on a CURRENT
approach plate (or look it up on the Internet). They are given in year, day
of year format at the bottom of the NACO charts. If your database in the
plane is that date or newer, then the database is current for that specific
approach.

If they haven't revised the approach since your database, it has the
appropriate information (for reviewed and date matched approaches only). I
know the AFM supplement is controlling but I think that is what it says in
mine.

Ron A.

"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
> flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
> really using the database.
>

[Al G[_1_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> \
>>
>> That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You
>> can't file /G with an expired database.
>>
> Jepp has no say in the matter.
>
>
I didn't say that it was their decision, merely their explanation.

The Pilot in command is the final authority, and bears final
responsibility. It is
one of the few things our government got right.

Al G

[Newps]

Al G wrote:


>>
>>Jepp has no say in the matter.
>>
>>
>
> I didn't say that it was their decision, merely their explanation.
>
> The Pilot in command is the final authority, and bears final
> responsibility.


Well, no. The manufacturer of the GPS will tell you what, if any,
operations you can use your GPS for with an expired database.

[Dave Butler]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Al G wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> Jepp has no say in the matter.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I didn't say that it was their decision, merely their explanation.
>>
>> The Pilot in command is the final authority, and bears final
>> responsibility.
>
>
> Well, no. The manufacturer of the GPS will tell you what, if any,
> operations you can use your GPS for with an expired database.

Actually, the GPS manufacturer will provide suggested wording for the
Approved Flight Manual Supplement, the installer sends it to Oklahoma
City, and the FAA approves it (or not).

Dave

[karl gruber[_1_]]

Bob and Jose,

Here is the documentation!
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/kgruber//gfmsp.jpg

Karl
> Jose, let me repeat what I have said many times: When you are told
> something like this, ask for documentation. There are far too many pilots
> who are willing to swallow a story whole without question, and far too
> many instructors who simply pass on what they have been told by someone
> else.
>
> Bob Gardner

[Travis Marlatte]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches
> without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the out
> of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G, since
> you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS approach,
> assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR GPS
> certification.
>
>
> Dave

It seems that you just said that you can't legally use the GPS with an
expired database. Using the unit to receive a ground-based navaid such as an
ILS, LOC or VOR doesn't really depend on the database at all - other than
grabbing the frequency to tune.

/G does not just mean that you are capable of flying GPS approaches. "/G -
Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS), including GPS or Wide Area
Augmentation System (WAAS), with en route and terminal capability."

If I had an expired database, I don't think I would file /G. But, I would
accept a direct clearance. If I can find an airport that hasn't moved in 50
years or a FAF, ATC doesn't care how I do it. Of course, if I screw it up,
I'll have some 'splainin to do.
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Travis Marlatte]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
> approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
> box with a current database.

Reference please? I think using a GPS for DME is a terminal operation - not
approach. Even when it is part of the approach such as a VOR-DME. Same for a
DME Arc.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Newps]

Travis Marlatte wrote:

>
> If I had an expired database, I don't think I would file /G.



No reason not to, it's perfectly legal.




But, I would
> accept a direct clearance.


Irrelevant.



If I can find an airport that hasn't moved in 50
> years


Or even the last few days since the database was current.



or a FAF, ATC doesn't care how I do it. Of course, if I screw it up,
> I'll have some 'splainin to do.

You would anyways.

[Newps]

>
>> Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
>>approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
>>box with a current database.

Absolutely wrong.
>
>
> Reference please? I think using a GPS for DME is a terminal operation - not
> approach. Even when it is part of the approach such as a VOR-DME. Same for a
> DME Arc.

Correct. Current database not required.

[[email protected]]

would a sextant provide "current approved data"?


On 16 Apr 2007 22:06:41 -0700, wrote:

>On Apr 16, 6:01 pm, Dave S > wrote:
>> Peter Clark wrote:
>> > On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" >
>> > wrote:
>
>> > What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
>> > NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
>> > can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.
>>
>> Yes.. you can.
>
> Indeed. The usual verbiage is
>
>"IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot
>verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected
>waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data."
>
> NDB and DME substitution on non-GPS missed approaches is a terminal
>operation.