KLN94 Question

[kevmor]

I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
like that.

[kevmor]

Also, what is the difference between approaches such as:

RNAV (GPS) Y RWY 20
RNAV (GPS) Z RWY 20

Sometimes they look identical I've noticed, is the Y and Z designation
similar to the A in VOR-A, etc?

On Apr 17, 1:59 pm, kevmor > wrote:
> I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
> the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
> would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
> precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
> so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
> like that.

[Bob Gardner]

"kevmor" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Also, what is the difference between approaches such as:
>
> RNAV (GPS) Y RWY 20
> RNAV (GPS) Z RWY 20
>
> Sometimes they look identical I've noticed, is the Y and Z designation
> similar to the A in VOR-A, etc?
>
> On Apr 17, 1:59 pm, kevmor > wrote:
>> I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
>> the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
>> would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
>> precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
>> so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
>> like that.
>
>


From the AIM, 5-4-5(a)(3):

(d) The naming of multiple approaches of the same type to the same runway is
also changing. Multiple approaches with the same guidance will be annotated
with an alphabetical suffix beginning at the end of the alphabet and working
backwards for subsequent procedures (e.g., ILS Z RWY 28, ILS Y RWY 28,
etc.). The existing annotations such as ILS 2 RWY 28 or Silver ILS RWY 28
will be phased out and replaced with the new designation. The Cat II and Cat
III designations are used to differentiate between multiple ILSs to the same
runway unless there are multiples of the same type.

Bob Gardner

[Bill]

The box checks gps altitude vs the encoder altitude for sanity.
All the King boxes do this. So you will probably have to enter
the altimeter setting to get the approach to go active.

The 94 is a very nice box; many features of the 430s at a lower
price. Includes ILS approach guidance.

To bad there's no way to drop it in a 90B slot!

Bill Hale BPPP instructor


On Apr 17, 2:59 pm, kevmor > wrote:
> I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
> the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
> would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
> precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
> so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
> like that.

[Don Poitras]

Bill > wrote:
> The box checks gps altitude vs the encoder altitude for sanity.
> All the King boxes do this. So you will probably have to enter
> the altimeter setting to get the approach to go active.

Also, from the manual:

Altitude may be provided to the KLN 94 from an encoding altimeter or
blind encoder. Altitude is used as an aid in position determination
when not enough satellites are in view.

and:

A valid position may be determined using as few as four satellites
alone or three satellites with a valid electronic altitude input.

> The 94 is a very nice box; many features of the 430s at a lower
> price. Includes ILS approach guidance.

> To bad there's no way to drop it in a 90B slot!

> Bill Hale BPPP instructor


> On Apr 17, 2:59 pm, kevmor > wrote:
> > I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
> > the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
> > would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
> > precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
> > so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
> > like that.



--
Don Poitras

[Ross]

Bill wrote:
> The box checks gps altitude vs the encoder altitude for sanity.
> All the King boxes do this. So you will probably have to enter
> the altimeter setting to get the approach to go active.
>
> The 94 is a very nice box; many features of the 430s at a lower
> price. Includes ILS approach guidance.
>
> To bad there's no way to drop it in a 90B slot!
>
> Bill Hale BPPP instructor
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2:59 pm, kevmor > wrote:
>
>>I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
>>the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
>>would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
>>precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
>>so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
>>like that.
>
>
>

I thought the 90B would drop in to the 89B and the 94 would do the same.
Bummer....

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[kevmor]

I flew today to try out some more approaches with the KLN94 and the
entire time I was getting "Altitude Fail" in the MSG area, which the
manual says will display "When the altitude input becomes invalid
during operation". If I remember correctly, I think I saw when
turning it on or setting the ALT that it wasn't receiving any altitude
input, so I pushed ALT and set the altimeter to the current setting.
It kept redisplaying though... am I doing something wrong, or is it
getting a bad input possibly?

On Apr 18, 3:48 am, (Don Poitras) wrote:
> Bill > wrote:
> > The box checks gps altitude vs the encoder altitude for sanity.
> > All the King boxes do this. So you will probably have to enter
> > the altimeter setting to get the approach to go active.
>
> Also, from the manual:
>
> Altitude may be provided to the KLN 94 from an encoding altimeter or
> blind encoder. Altitude is used as an aid in position determination
> when not enough satellites are in view.
>
> and:
>
> A valid position may be determined using as few as four satellites
> alone or three satellites with a valid electronic altitude input.
>
> > The 94 is a very nice box; many features of the 430s at a lower
> > price. Includes ILS approach guidance.
> > To bad there's no way to drop it in a 90B slot!
> > Bill Hale BPPP instructor
> > On Apr 17, 2:59 pm, kevmor > wrote:
> > > I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
> > > the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
> > > would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
> > > precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
> > > so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
> > > like that.
>
> --
> Don Poitras

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/19/07 12:49, kevmor wrote:
> I flew today to try out some more approaches with the KLN94 and the
> entire time I was getting "Altitude Fail" in the MSG area, which the
> manual says will display "When the altitude input becomes invalid
> during operation". If I remember correctly, I think I saw when
> turning it on or setting the ALT that it wasn't receiving any altitude
> input, so I pushed ALT and set the altimeter to the current setting.
> It kept redisplaying though... am I doing something wrong, or is it
> getting a bad input possibly?
>

I was told by one of the club CFIs that you need to have your transponder
set to Mode C for this feature to work. So, while on the ground prior
get turning on the transponder (to mode-C), I get the same thing.

Once I've turned on the mode-c, I no longer get the message.

Is it possible the message was originally received while you were on
the ground (before you turned on the mode-c) and you never cleared
the message?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Allen[_1_]]

"kevmor" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I flew today to try out some more approaches with the KLN94 and the
> entire time I was getting "Altitude Fail" in the MSG area, which the
> manual says will display "When the altitude input becomes invalid
> during operation". If I remember correctly, I think I saw when
> turning it on or setting the ALT that it wasn't receiving any altitude
> input, so I pushed ALT and set the altimeter to the current setting.
> It kept redisplaying though... am I doing something wrong, or is it
> getting a bad input possibly?

You do have either an encoding altimeter or blind encoder and it is hooked
up to the GPS and is functioning properly? You have your transponder turned
to ALT and not just to on? If the GPS is not hooked up to the encoder there
should be a way in the setup to tell it there is no encoder connected. I am
not familiar with the KLN94 but these things are pretty common to all panel
mount GPS.

[Bill]

On Apr 19, 2:35 pm, "Allen" > wrote:
> "kevmor" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> >I flew today to try out some more approaches with the KLN94 and the
> > entire time I was getting "Altitude Fail" in the MSG area, which the
> > manual says will display "When the altitude input becomes invalid
> > during operation". If I remember correctly, I think I saw when
> > turning it on or setting the ALT that it wasn't receiving any altitude
> > input, so I pushed ALT and set the altimeter to the current setting.
> > It kept redisplaying though... am I doing something wrong, or is it
> > getting a bad input possibly?
>
> You do have either an encoding altimeter or blind encoder and it is hooked
> up to the GPS and is functioning properly? You have your transponder turned
> to ALT and not just to on? If the GPS is not hooked up to the encoder there
> should be a way in the setup to tell it there is no encoder connected. I am
> not familiar with the KLN94 but these things are pretty common to all panel
> mount GPS.

The encoder lines are a big party line. They are pulled high by
the transponder usually and the altimeter pulls them low to
signify a "1". The GPS just monitors the lines--or should.
On 90B installations, you are ordered to put some diodes in the
lines so that if the 90B is turned off it won't pull the lines low and
flummox
the transponder-encoder connection.

Might also be that the encoder only gets power if the transponder
is in ALT position; haven't heard of that one. I know that on Narcos,
the encoder only got strobed in mode C--at least on really
old models.

So check your plane: You should be able to turn off the GPS
and still squak the correct altitude; you should be able to turn the
transponder off and still indicate the correct altitude on the GPS.

Bill Hale

[Allen[_1_]]

"Bill" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Apr 19, 2:35 pm, "Allen" > wrote:
>> "kevmor" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> >I flew today to try out some more approaches with the KLN94 and the
>> > entire time I was getting "Altitude Fail" in the MSG area, which the
>> > manual says will display "When the altitude input becomes invalid
>> > during operation". If I remember correctly, I think I saw when
>> > turning it on or setting the ALT that it wasn't receiving any altitude
>> > input, so I pushed ALT and set the altimeter to the current setting.
>> > It kept redisplaying though... am I doing something wrong, or is it
>> > getting a bad input possibly?
>>
>> You do have either an encoding altimeter or blind encoder and it is
>> hooked
>> up to the GPS and is functioning properly? You have your transponder
>> turned
>> to ALT and not just to on? If the GPS is not hooked up to the encoder
>> there
>> should be a way in the setup to tell it there is no encoder connected. I
>> am
>> not familiar with the KLN94 but these things are pretty common to all
>> panel
>> mount GPS.
>
> The encoder lines are a big party line. They are pulled high by
> the transponder usually and the altimeter pulls them low to
> signify a "1". The GPS just monitors the lines--or should.
> On 90B installations, you are ordered to put some diodes in the
> lines so that if the 90B is turned off it won't pull the lines low and
> flummox
> the transponder-encoder connection.
>
> Might also be that the encoder only gets power if the transponder
> is in ALT position; haven't heard of that one. I know that on Narcos,
> the encoder only got strobed in mode C--at least on really
> old models.
>
> So check your plane: You should be able to turn off the GPS
> and still squak the correct altitude; you should be able to turn the
> transponder off and still indicate the correct altitude on the GPS.
>
> Bill Hale

I have flown several different aircraft that had GPS that would complain
about no altitude if the transponder wasn't squawking ALT.

[Ross]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 04/19/07 12:49, kevmor wrote:
>
>>I flew today to try out some more approaches with the KLN94 and the
>>entire time I was getting "Altitude Fail" in the MSG area, which the
>>manual says will display "When the altitude input becomes invalid
>>during operation". If I remember correctly, I think I saw when
>>turning it on or setting the ALT that it wasn't receiving any altitude
>>input, so I pushed ALT and set the altimeter to the current setting.
>>It kept redisplaying though... am I doing something wrong, or is it
>>getting a bad input possibly?
>>
>
>
> I was told by one of the club CFIs that you need to have your transponder
> set to Mode C for this feature to work. So, while on the ground prior
> get turning on the transponder (to mode-C), I get the same thing.
>
> Once I've turned on the mode-c, I no longer get the message.
>
> Is it possible the message was originally received while you were on
> the ground (before you turned on the mode-c) and you never cleared
> the message?
>
>
On my KLN 89B I will get that message until the blind encoder is warmed
up and outputting data. It can take up to 6 or 7 minutes.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Don Poitras]

Peter > wrote:

> kevmor > wrote

> >I'm learning to use the KLN94 IFR GPS and was wondering about using
> >the ALT button to set the current altimeter setting. I can see why it
> >would use this for VNAV, but is it required to set it for normal non-
> >precision approaches? I think the only thing I've read in the manual
> >so far was it helps to get the RAIM check done faster or something
> >like that.

> Coming late into this thread...

> I have a KLN94, and a KMD550.

> *AFAIK* the KLN94 uses the altitude encoder input for only *one*
> purpose, and that is RAIM checking if it is receiving less than 4 (or
> 5?) satellites. Once it is receiving sufficient satellites, the alt
> input is ignored.

> There is a crude VNAV calculator in the KLN94 which I believe uses the
> current GPS altitude, but it could be an exception to that I am
> saying.

> I have the installation and/or maintenance manuals for the KLN94 -
> email me if you would like a copy. It should answer most of the tech
> (if not the operating) questions.

Both are available online. Here's the relevant section:

"The KLN 94 functions which use the altitude input are special use
airspace (SUA) alerting, altitude alerting, vertical navigation (VNAV),
and the GPS approach mode. It is a good idea to update the altimeter
baro setting on the ALT 1 page each time you make a change to the
aircraft's altimeter setting."

> email: peter at peter2000 dot co dot uk

> It's a great GPS for typical enroute GPS usage, plus it displays the
> final approach track on conventional approaches, enabling e.g. an NDB
> approach to be flown inbound using the GPS / autopilot. I am not sure
> how it works for a full US-style GPS approach but we don't have any
> over here anyway.

It's also great for full US-style GPS approaches. :)

--
Don Poitras

[Ross]

Peter wrote:
> (Don Poitras) wrote
>
>
>>Both are available online. Here's the relevant section:
>
>
> Where?
>
>
>>It's also great for full US-style GPS approaches. :)
>
>
> I am OK with it for the approach itself, but how does the waypoint
> sequencing work after the MAP?

Not sure about the 94, but my 89B will not sequence past the MAP by
design. You have to envoke it. It is ready in the display for you.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Don Poitras]

Peter > wrote:

> (Don Poitras) wrote

> >Both are available online. Here's the relevant section:

> Where?

Do a Google for ""kln 94 pilots guide". First hit.
Ditto '"Avionics Library" bendix-king' (without the single quotes). Second
hit, dig down.

I don't verify the accuracy or legality of either of these, but I'm
sure with some digging you could find more.

> >It's also great for full US-style GPS approaches. :)

> I am OK with it for the approach itself, but how does the waypoint
> sequencing work after the MAP?

From the book:

"To perform the published missed approach procedure, press D-> to bring
up the direct-to page. The default waypoint will usually be the first
waypoint of the missed approach procedure."

"Confirm this waypoint as the direct to waypoint and press ENTER."

--
Don Poitras

[Andrew Andersen]

At time of installation, the Maintenance 7 (MNT 7) page should have
been set. Enhanced RS232 data output is selected when a KMD550 is
connected, provided there are no other devices on the same RS232 bus.
The Enhanced RS232 data output includes extra (and as I understand it,
BK-specific and non-standard) output for the display of curved
segments.



On Fri, 04 May 2007 07:48:13 +0100, Peter >
wrote:
>One Q, since you seem to know this stuff: is there *any* way to get a
>KMD550 to display arcs, from the KLN94 database? Mine only ever
>displays straight lines, and STARs/SIDs tend to look unrecognisable.

[Don Poitras]

Peter > wrote:

> (Don Poitras) wrote

> >Peter > wrote:
> >
> >> (Don Poitras) wrote
> >
> >> >Both are available online. Here's the relevant section:
> >
> >> Where?
> >
> >Do a Google for ""kln 94 pilots guide". First hit.
> >Ditto '"Avionics Library" bendix-king' (without the single quotes). Second
> >hit, dig down.
> >
> >I don't verify the accuracy or legality of either of these, but I'm
> >sure with some digging you could find more.

> Yes, excellent. I have my own slightly bigger collection but this one
> is interesting.

> >> >It's also great for full US-style GPS approaches. :)
> >
> >> I am OK with it for the approach itself, but how does the waypoint
> >> sequencing work after the MAP?
> >
> >From the book:
> >
> >"To perform the published missed approach procedure, press D-> to bring
> >up the direct-to page. The default waypoint will usually be the first
> >waypoint of the missed approach procedure."
> >
> >"Confirm this waypoint as the direct to waypoint and press ENTER."

> So you get the 1st WP of the missed approach, only?

No, you get the entire missed approach to the hold. They make you hit
D-> because often you need to fly a certain heading and/or reach
a certain height before turning to the first missed approach waypoint.

> One Q, since you seem to know this stuff: is there *any* way to get a
> KMD550 to display arcs, from the KLN94 database? Mine only ever
> displays straight lines, and STARs/SIDs tend to look unrecognisable.

I don't own a KMD550, but I see someone else has answered this.

--
Don Poitras