Mooney M20C Questions

[Greg Esres[_2_]]

On the hydraulic flaps, does the position of the silver pump handle
have any bearing on whether or not the hydraulic pressure leaks out of
the flap, once they are extended? (The POH doesn't say that it does.)

There is some mechanism underneath the instrument panel that has some
adjustment for the Positive Control. What does it do, exactly?

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 18 Apr 2007 08:10:13 -0700, Greg Esres > wrote:

>On the hydraulic flaps, does the position of the silver pump handle
>have any bearing on whether or not the hydraulic pressure leaks out of
>the flap, once they are extended? (The POH doesn't say that it does.)
>

Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.

>There is some mechanism underneath the instrument panel that has some
>adjustment for the Positive Control. What does it do, exactly?

I don't recall anything at all like that in either the '68C or the '65E
models with which I have experience.
--ron

[Greg Esres[_2_]]

<<Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.>>

No, the retraction mechanism is a little flap-like lever *above* the
silver handle. Lifting it up releases the hydraulic pressure. When
it's down, the pressure should remain.

The silver handle I'm talking about is the pumping handle.

The flaps are coming up some times when I'm not looking and I haven't
established a pattern yet. ;-)



On Apr 18, 7:47 pm, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
> On 18 Apr 2007 08:10:13 -0700, Greg Esres > wrote:
>
> >On the hydraulic flaps, does the position of the silver pump handle
> >have any bearing on whether or not the hydraulic pressure leaks out of
> >the flap, once they are extended? (The POH doesn't say that it does.)
>
> Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.
>
> >There is some mechanism underneath the instrument panel that has some
> >adjustment for the Positive Control. What does it do, exactly?
>
> I don't recall anything at all like that in either the '68C or the '65E
> models with which I have experience.
> --ron

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Although I have relatively little experience in this aircraft, the silver metal pump handle pumps the flaps down when the flap "lever" is in the down position, and the pump handle position didn't matter. (I always unconsciously pulled it back to the top stop whenever I used it however.) The flap "lever" is beside or immediately above the pump handle - I don't remember for sure.

I never saw anything labeled "Positive Control" on the bird I flew.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Greg Esres" > wrote in message ups.com...
On the hydraulic flaps, does the position of the silver pump handle
have any bearing on whether or not the hydraulic pressure leaks out of
the flap, once they are extended? (The POH doesn't say that it does.)

There is some mechanism underneath the instrument panel that has some
adjustment for the Positive Control. What does it do, exactly?

[Greg Esres[_2_]]

<<the pump handle position didn't matter. (I always unconsciously
pulled it back to the top stop whenever I used it however.) >>

That's how I read the POH. However, the flaps seem to creep up
sometimes.


<<I never saw anything labeled "Positive Control" on the bird I
flew.>>

I thought they all had this? Probably no label....built-in wing
leveler.


Thanks

[Don Tuite]

On 18 Apr 2007 20:27:36 -0700, Greg Esres >
wrote:

><<the pump handle position didn't matter. (I always unconsciously
>pulled it back to the top stop whenever I used it however.) >>
>
>That's how I read the POH. However, the flaps seem to creep up
>sometimes.
>
>
><<I never saw anything labeled "Positive Control" on the bird I
>flew.>>
>
>I thought they all had this? Probably no label....built-in wing
>leveler.
>
brushed-aluminum pushbuttojn on left horn of yoke? extra knob on
turn-and-sllip?

Don

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 18 Apr 2007 19:16:58 -0700, Greg Esres > wrote:

><<Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.>>
>
>No, the retraction mechanism is a little flap-like lever *above* the
>silver handle. Lifting it up releases the hydraulic pressure. When
>it's down, the pressure should remain.
>
>The silver handle I'm talking about is the pumping handle.

Oh, I misread. It shouldn't make any difference, but I've always left it
fully down (out of the way). On occasion, during pre-flight, it might be in
an intermediate position, though. I'd suspect a leak in the hydraulic
system.

>
>The flaps are coming up some times when I'm not looking and I haven't
>established a pattern yet. ;-)
>
>
>
>On Apr 18, 7:47 pm, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>> On 18 Apr 2007 08:10:13 -0700, Greg Esres > wrote:
>>
>> >On the hydraulic flaps, does the position of the silver pump handle
>> >have any bearing on whether or not the hydraulic pressure leaks out of
>> >the flap, once they are extended? (The POH doesn't say that it does.)
>>
>> Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.
>>
>> >There is some mechanism underneath the instrument panel that has some
>> >adjustment for the Positive Control. What does it do, exactly?
>>
>> I don't recall anything at all like that in either the '68C or the '65E
>> models with which I have experience.
>> --ron
>

--ron

[Greg Esres[_2_]]

Ron Rosenfield wrote:

<<I'd suspect a leak in the hydraulic system. >>

That's kinda what I was thinking. Thank you.

[Greg Esres[_2_]]

Don Tuite wrote:

<<brushed-aluminum pushbuttojn on left horn of yoke?>>

Yes

<<extra knob on turn-and-sllip? >>

Hmmm, I don't think so. There is such a knob on the yoke itself that
is aileron trim. I don't think the system uses the panel turn & slip;
it has its own internal equivalent of a turn coordinator, according to
the documentation I've seen.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 18, 8:27 pm, Greg Esres > wrote:
> <<the pump handle position didn't matter. (I always unconsciously
> pulled it back to the top stop whenever I used it however.) >>
>
> That's how I read the POH. However, the flaps seem to creep up
> sometimes.
>
> <<I never saw anything labeled "Positive Control" on the bird I
> flew.>>
>
> I thought they all had this? Probably no label....built-in wing
> leveler.
>
> Thanks

I'd instruction in a lot of Mooneys but I've not seen any that didn't
have at least the vac wing leveler autopilot. All the way back in the
early days of the C they had the wing leveler, and later offered an
upgrade to the electric Pathfinder system. The PC system had a check
valve as I recall to prevent leaks in the PC system (which most planes
have) from causing vac failures. Up until 1977 Mooneys were certified
with full-time autopilots (maybe the only plane so certified). The
autopilot was designed to be on all the time unless the pilot actively
held down a button to disable it. Turns are made by selecting left/
right on the controller. However, the A/P is easily over powered.

-Robert, CFII

[Don Tuite]

On 19 Apr 2007 09:22:44 -0700, Greg Esres >
wrote:

>Don Tuite wrote:
>
><<brushed-aluminum pushbuttojn on left horn of yoke?>>
>
>Yes
>
><<extra knob on turn-and-sllip? >>
>
>Hmmm, I don't think so. There is such a knob on the yoke itself that
>is aileron trim. I don't think the system uses the panel turn & slip;
>it has its own internal equivalent of a turn coordinator, according to
>the documentation I've seen.

OK My recollections are nearly 40 years old.

Don

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"> have) from causing vac failures. Up until 1977 Mooneys were certified
> with full-time autopilots (maybe the only plane so certified).

And they need one. The Mooney has to be the most unresponsive airplane made.
It flys like a truck!

Karl
Bought new 201 in 1977

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Ok - I'll accept the wing leveler (which you overrode with a button on the yoke if you didn't want to fly a Mack Truck). However I've never seen it called Positive Control before - might be a different year model.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Greg Esres" > wrote in message oups.com...
<<the pump handle position didn't matter. (I always unconsciously
pulled it back to the top stop whenever I used it however.) >>

That's how I read the POH. However, the flaps seem to creep up
sometimes.


<<I never saw anything labeled "Positive Control" on the bird I
flew.>>

I thought they all had this? Probably no label....built-in wing
leveler.


Thanks

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Gosh Karl - I thought the M20 flew pretty nicely when you release the wing leveler. Nothing like a C182 or C206 - hell during the preflight I think we are supposed to check the delivery chute on the tail to make sure it hasn't clogged from the last load of concrete it hauled.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"karl gruber" > wrote in message ...

"> have) from causing vac failures. Up until 1977 Mooneys were certified
> with full-time autopilots (maybe the only plane so certified).

And they need one. The Mooney has to be the most unresponsive airplane made.
It flys like a truck!

Karl
Bought new 201 in 1977

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

If you're not having to add fluid, and you're probably not then the issue is the flap valve leaking through and relieving the pressure that keeps the flaps extended. We had that problem one year and a quick rebuild of the valve during the annual fixed the issue.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message ...
On 18 Apr 2007 19:16:58 -0700, Greg Esres > wrote:

><<Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.>>
>
>No, the retraction mechanism is a little flap-like lever *above* the
>silver handle. Lifting it up releases the hydraulic pressure. When
>it's down, the pressure should remain.
>
>The silver handle I'm talking about is the pumping handle.

Oh, I misread. It shouldn't make any difference, but I've always left it
fully down (out of the way). On occasion, during pre-flight, it might be in
an intermediate position, though. I'd suspect a leak in the hydraulic
system.

>
>The flaps are coming up some times when I'm not looking and I haven't
>established a pattern yet. ;-)
>
>
>
>On Apr 18, 7:47 pm, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>> On 18 Apr 2007 08:10:13 -0700, Greg Esres > wrote:
>>
>> >On the hydraulic flaps, does the position of the silver pump handle
>> >have any bearing on whether or not the hydraulic pressure leaks out of
>> >the flap, once they are extended? (The POH doesn't say that it does.)
>>
>> Yes. That's how you retract the flaps.
>>
>> >There is some mechanism underneath the instrument panel that has some
>> >adjustment for the Positive Control. What does it do, exactly?
>>
>> I don't recall anything at all like that in either the '68C or the '65E
>> models with which I have experience.
>> --ron
>

--ron

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 19, 7:28 pm, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
> Ok - I'll accept the wing leveler (which you overrode with a button on the yoke if you didn't want to fly a Mack Truck). However I've never seen it called Positive Control before - might be a different year model.


I think its always called "The PC system" in every Mooney I've
instructed in that had just the wing leveler. I think it even has a
(TM) next to it.

-Robert

[Dave Butler]

karl gruber wrote:
> "> have) from causing vac failures. Up until 1977 Mooneys were certified
>> with full-time autopilots (maybe the only plane so certified).
>
> And they need one. The Mooney has to be the most unresponsive airplane made.
> It flys like a truck!

We like to say they are "stable". :)

Dave