Buying a Pitts for aerobatics and touring

[drclive]

I been dreaming to buy a machine to do aerobatics as well as touring.
Currently I'm doing aerobatic training in a Pitts S2A, but its
avionics doesn't seem very suitable for touring or navigation
exercises. I have seems some Pitts S1S and the same problems.
Can anybody advice me what would the best solution to this?

CR

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

Buy an Extra- you can fly unlimited level aerobatics in it, but also load it
with enough avionics to fly comfortable cross countries. If you find a used
one with long range tanks you can go easy three hour legs at 165 knots.
There are some out there with full IFR panels.

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On 24 Apr 2007 00:13:50 -0700, drclive > wrote:

>I been dreaming to buy a machine to do aerobatics as well as touring.
>Currently I'm doing aerobatic training in a Pitts S2A, but its
>avionics doesn't seem very suitable for touring or navigation
>exercises. I have seems some Pitts S1S and the same problems.
>Can anybody advice me what would the best solution to this?
>
>CR

buy a pitts for aerobatics by all means but buy something you can land
in a 20 knot gusting crosswind for touring.

a few pitts in australia have been flown home by the new owner all the
way to the first cross country landing ....then pranged.

ymmv
Stealth Pilot

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"drclive" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I been dreaming to buy a machine to do aerobatics as well as touring.
> Currently I'm doing aerobatic training in a Pitts S2A, but its
> avionics doesn't seem very suitable for touring or navigation
> exercises. I have seems some Pitts S1S and the same problems.
> Can anybody advice me what would the best solution to this?
>
> CR

Nice airplanes, but I would worry less about the avionics (How much do you
really need for day VFR???) and more about the limited fuel capacity for
"touring".

Disclamer: I don't now, and never have, owned one. I have had some dual in a
factory Pitts, and I helped some on a "Pitts like" homebuilt - it has an aux
tank, larger main tank, and has been cleaned up a bit for better
speed/range.

Mr. Viperdoc probably knows as much as anyone around here about this kind of
aircraft...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[flynrider via AviationKB.com]

drclive wrote:
>I been dreaming to buy a machine to do aerobatics as well as touring.
>Currently I'm doing aerobatic training in a Pitts S2A, but its
>avionics doesn't seem very suitable for touring or navigation
>exercises. I have seems some Pitts S1S and the same problems.
>Can anybody advice me what would the best solution to this?
>
>CR
Neither the Pitts S1 or S2 versions are really suitable for touring. I
have a friend that does airshows in an S1. He loves flying the aerobatics,
but he dreads getting there. Not only is the panel limited, the range is not
ideal for long cross country jaunts. That narrow cockpit isn't something I'd
want to spend a whole lot of time in (at least while straight and level).

I'd recommend looking for an RV6/7. They are great cross country machines
and stressed for aerobatics. The controls are very light and fast. Well
suited for aerobatics.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

The Pitts series suffer from short legs, poor visibility, and can be a
challenge to land. A 180 Decathlon is a great plane, comfortable, good
visibility, longer legs, and much more suitable for cross countries, but not
as good as a Pitts for acro.

The Extras take the comfort levels even a step further- many have
autopilots, moving maps, etc, and even with all of this gear are still
capable of unlimited level aerobatics.

In an Extra you sit in a carbon fiber molded seat, while in a Pitts it's a
plywood board.

I had about 350 hours in a Super Decathlon prior to getting into an Extra
300L. Both are great planes, not only for acro but also for going cross
country.

The Decathlon is less expensive to run by a lot, has better visibility, and
is easier to land. On the other hand, the Extra has a lot more power, longer
legs, and is much more capable of high level acro, although most owners buy
them like they would a Ferrari, never using them to the max. Also, they can
be a handful to land. There are quite a few low time Extra's out there that
were purchased by owners who could afford them, but didn't realize how much
of a challenge they can be to land (although still a lot easier than a
Pitts).

The Extra cruises at around 165k, and can go nearly four hours at that
speed- you're talking Bonanza level performance in terms of speed. The fit
and finish of an Extra are extraordinary, both inside and out. Maintenance
is stone simple, since the whole airplane can be opened into six big pieces
with just a bunch of screws. Annuals run $800-$1,000, and parts generally
easily available, like brakes, engine parts, etc. Support is superb from
Southeast Aero.

Any questions- ask me off line.

Good luck.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
> The Pitts series suffer from short legs, poor visibility, and can be a
> challenge to land. A 180 Decathlon is a great plane, comfortable, good
> visibility, longer legs, and much more suitable for cross countries, but
> not as good as a Pitts for acro.
>
> The Extras take the comfort levels even a step further- many have
> autopilots, moving maps, etc, and even with all of this gear are still
> capable of unlimited level aerobatics.
>
> In an Extra you sit in a carbon fiber molded seat, while in a Pitts it's a
> plywood board.
>
> I had about 350 hours in a Super Decathlon prior to getting into an Extra
> 300L. Both are great planes, not only for acro but also for going cross
> country.
>
> The Decathlon is less expensive to run by a lot, has better visibility,
> and is easier to land. On the other hand, the Extra has a lot more power,
> longer legs, and is much more capable of high level acro, although most
> owners buy them like they would a Ferrari, never using them to the max.
> Also, they can be a handful to land. There are quite a few low time
> Extra's out there that were purchased by owners who could afford them, but
> didn't realize how much of a challenge they can be to land (although still
> a lot easier than a Pitts).
>
> The Extra cruises at around 165k, and can go nearly four hours at that
> speed- you're talking Bonanza level performance in terms of speed. The fit
> and finish of an Extra are extraordinary, both inside and out. Maintenance
> is stone simple, since the whole airplane can be opened into six big
> pieces with just a bunch of screws. Annuals run $800-$1,000, and parts
> generally easily available, like brakes, engine parts, etc. Support is
> superb from Southeast Aero.
>
> Any questions- ask me off line.
>
> Good luck.

What makes the Extra so difficult to land? I would have thought it would
have a LOT of control authority... Is it twitchy? High (relative) stall
speed?

KB

[drclive]

On Apr 24, 12:34 pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
> Buy an Extra- you can fly unlimited level aerobatics in it, but also load it
> with enough avionics to fly comfortable cross countries. If you find a used
> one with long range tanks you can go easy three hour legs at 165 knots.
> There are some out there with full IFR panels.

The only problems with the extra is that is to expensive to buy and
operate. The zlin is also a good alternative, but again, little over
the budget.

CR

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

The Extra actually isn't all that hard to land. However, it has a fast sink
rate with the power off, and of course no forward visibility. Pattern
techniques generally requires staying close to the runway, and then pulling
the throttle abeam the numbers. Keeping the AS at about 90 k, and you
usually will make the runway (but not always, with a good headwind). A more
difficult scenario is following a Cessna 152 trainer in the pattern who is
doing those five mile finals like a 747. Then, I try to keep it high, and
slip it in, rather than get low and slow.

Over the numbers is actually faster than my Baron, although the higher speed
makes crosswinds less of an issue. Once it's down it won't do the
Pitts/Eagle hopping around. The biggest issue is the lack of forward
visibility, particularly at uncontrolled airports, like where the C-152 in
front suddenly decides to use the whole runway, and you can't see what he's
doing. Slipping or curving approaches maximize forward visibility until
touchdown.

In the three point attitude it will touch down before stalling, although I
have the stall horn turned off, since it would be going off constantly while
doing acro, and a big distraction.

So, it's not really that hard to land, but does require some different kinds
of planning and thinking ahead.

[dave]

When I sold my citabria I was thinking exactly what you're wondering
about. Have you considered the CAP10B? I don't remember all the
particulars but the CAP has a fast cruise speed and it's a pleasure to
fly. It's a bit of oddball because of the wood wing - there's an
inspection AD for it but it's simple. I understand that they're still
made but with a carbon fiber wing. I ended up deciding that I'd rent a
decathalon locally if I wanted to do some acro and bought a Bonanza.

Dave
M35


drclive wrote:
> I been dreaming to buy a machine to do aerobatics as well as touring.
> Currently I'm doing aerobatic training in a Pitts S2A, but its
> avionics doesn't seem very suitable for touring or navigation
> exercises. I have seems some Pitts S1S and the same problems.
> Can anybody advice me what would the best solution to this?
>
> CR
>

[Kyle Boatright]

"flynrider via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:71338767bcae8@uwe...
> drclive wrote:
>>I been dreaming to buy a machine to do aerobatics as well as touring.
>>Currently I'm doing aerobatic training in a Pitts S2A, but its
>>avionics doesn't seem very suitable for touring or navigation
>>exercises. I have seems some Pitts S1S and the same problems.
>>Can anybody advice me what would the best solution to this?
>>
>>CR
> Neither the Pitts S1 or S2 versions are really suitable for touring. I
> have a friend that does airshows in an S1. He loves flying the
> aerobatics,
> but he dreads getting there. Not only is the panel limited, the range is
> not
> ideal for long cross country jaunts. That narrow cockpit isn't something
> I'd
> want to spend a whole lot of time in (at least while straight and level).
>
> I'd recommend looking for an RV6/7. They are great cross country
> machines
> and stressed for aerobatics. The controls are very light and fast. Well
> suited for aerobatics.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

As an RV-6 Builder/owner/flyer, I second this recommendation. On Sunday, I
returned home (solo) from camping at SnF. With a slight tailwind, I was
cooking along at 170-180 knots. When I got bored, I performed the occasional
roll or lazy 8 to break up the monotony of a 400 nautical mile, 2.5 hour
cross country where the airplane probably burned 20 gallons of fuel.

My wife and I have taken it from Atlanta to Oshkosh several times with a
baggage area full of camping gear and full fuel tanks (good for 600+
nautical miles).

Solo and with no baggage, it is capable of +6/-3 aerobatics plus a 50%
safety factor. This means loops rolls, wingovers, split esses, Cuban 8's,
and any other "gentlemen's" aerobatics are easily within the capabilities of
the airplane.

Look hard and you can find a nice VFR equipped RV-6 for between $50k and
$60k. If you want IFR, you can pay more, or if you are willing to accept an
airplane that doesn't have the best aesthetics, you can get one for <$50k.
RV-4's are priced lower than comparable RV-6's, and allegedly fly even
better at the cost of range, space, and payload.

KB

[john smith[_2_]]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> I had about 350 hours in a Super Decathlon prior to getting into an Extra
> 300L. Both are great planes, not only for acro but also for going cross
> country.

Doc, did you train with Billy Brunns?

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

Yes, one of the greatest guys and best instructors you could ever hope to
meet. I am very fortunate to have flown with him, and he got me started in
acro as well as tail draggers.

Where are you?

[john smith[_2_]]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> Yes, one of the greatest guys and best instructors you could ever hope to
> meet. I am very fortunate to have flown with him, and he got me started in
> acro as well as tail draggers.
>
> Where are you?

Dublin Ohio.
I knew Billy when he was wearing a chicken suit.
If he is still in your area, ask him about it.
Our mutual friend was Norm Crabtree.

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

He's not doing airshows any more, and works part time in the Kenosha tower.
Mostly he flies around in a helicopter, and is still instructing. We talk
occasionally, especially if I have an acro question.

I'll ask him and relay the message.

..

[Newps]

Viperdoc wrote:

> He's not doing airshows any more, and works part time in the Kenosha tower.


Ah, part time at the tower. My goal too.

[john smith[_2_]]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> He's not doing airshows any more, and works part time in the Kenosha tower.
> Mostly he flies around in a helicopter, and is still instructing. We talk
> occasionally, especially if I have an acro question.
>
> I'll ask him and relay the message.

I forgot to add, there is no one who flies the Decathlon better than
Billy. And he is also an excellent instructor in the aircraft.

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

The guys in our tower have a pretty good life. Whenever he keys the mike he
has a mouth full of food, and you can hear the football games in the
background.

I think our tower chief gained 30 lbs in the last year. He's a great guy.
There used to be some real dickheads that would yell at transients and
students, but now everyone is helpful and more importantly on the ball.

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

Absolutely true- he has the rare ability to feel and sense what the
airplane's doing, and can eke out every last ounce of performance and
energy. (The other person I've flown with who had the same ability was
Nikolai Timofeev)

Bill also helped me get my tail dragger endorsement, as well as a
substantial amount of acro training, and in fact helped me find my first
plane. The list of items where he has helped others learn could go on
forever.