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ArtKramr
July 3rd 03, 02:53 AM
"....... I'm going to die today......".

"I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and Lt.
Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a shock.
"No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I have a
wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost over.
I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you refuse to
fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid do?
Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I didn't
quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes crews
to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in. He
flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses and
all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he would
avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or sit
as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too
embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three
minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until a
recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help him
through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he thinks
about it today?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Matthew G. Saroff
July 3rd 03, 04:36 AM
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>
> "....... I'm going to die today......".
>
>"I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and Lt.
>Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a shock.
>"No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I have a
>wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost over.
>I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you refuse to
>fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid do?
>Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I didn't
>quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes crews
>to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in. He
>flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses and
>all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he would
>avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or sit
>as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too
>embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three
>minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until a
>recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help him
>through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he thinks
>about it today?
I'm not a psychologist, but it sounds like some sort of
combat fatigue (Shell Shock). It happens, and there's nothing to
be ashamed of.
--
--Matthew Saroff
Rules to live by:
1) To thine own self be true
2) Don't let your mouth write no checks that your butt can't cash
3) Interference in the time stream is forbidden, do not meddle in causality
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page

Dudley Henriques
July 3rd 03, 05:02 AM
"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> "....... I'm going to die
today......".
>
> "I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and
Lt.
> Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a
shock.
> "No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I
have a
> wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost
over.
> I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you
refuse to
> fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid
do?
> Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I
didn't
> quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes
crews
> to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in.
He
> flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses
and
> all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he
would
> avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or
sit
> as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too
> embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three
> minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until
a
> recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help
him
> through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he
thinks
> about it today?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Everyone has a "limit.....a "maximum effort" as they say. No one has ever
really clearly defined it as far as I know. The guys I know have told me
they just somehow kept going. Some would even throw up as they walked out of
the ready room or as they climbed into their planes. I've heard it all
through the years I guess.
One thing I think I've come to know during my many talks with close personal
friends who have come out of combat, is that I'm very careful in considering
the coward factor...and so, I might add, are many of these combat veterans.
Many broke down themselves at times, when things just piled on to the point
where they thought they were coming apart. Most got it together, both alone,
but also with the help of a friend or two.
I wouldn't be too quick to condemn this "Lt. Jones". I think I'd first have
to consider how many missions he had already flown. Then I think I'd give
serious consideration to the fact that after he talked to you and spilled
his guts, he got on the aircraft and flew the mission.
Who knows what a man's limit is? I don't. I do know that fear can be a
powerful thing, especially when it's cumulative and constant.
So where does this leave you with Lt. Jones? Well, unless you know something
additional about him that directly relates to cowardice, I'd cut him a
little slack. Now what does this mean?To me it means that every man in your
squadron was an individual, each facing his own demons in his own way. Men
in such a predicament seldom share their "demons" with their fellows. I'm
sure you remember this more so than I. There must have been times you were
scared right on up to your personal limit, but somehow you sucked it in and
kept going. I believe there's something within a person in combat that keeps
him going beyond fear for self, because the fear of failing, and the fear of
failing the others, especially on a bomber crew, is actually greater than
the personal fear.
I think this guy just reached his limit before you did, and you were there
to help him through it. If I were you, I'd just try and understand what
happened and accept it without any deep deductive reasoning. It's
unfortunately the price sometimes, of helping someone through a crisis like
the one you have described, where someone has allowed you to look deep
within their most personal fear, that afterward, they find further contact
difficult.
I would be interested to know how Lt. Jones made it through the rest of his
tour?
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired

ArtKramr
July 3rd 03, 05:45 AM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 7/2/03 9:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: k.net>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "....... I'm going to die
>today......".
>>
>> "I'm going to die today," he said. We had just left the briefing tent and
>Lt.
>> Jones (not his real name) walked along with me. His comment came as a
>shock.
>> "No you're not," I said. He shook his head in despair and choked out " I
>have a
>> wife and a kid and I'm know I'm going to die today and the war is almost
>over.
>> I'm not going to fly". I grabbed him by the arm hard. " Look, if you
>refuse to
>> fly you'll go to Leavenworth for 20 years. Then what will you wife and kid
>do?
>> Besides, today will probably be a milk run and you'll come back fine". I
>didn't
>> quite believe it, but I said it anyway. Now one of the 6x6's that takes
>crews
>> to the flight line pulled up. I pushed Jones toward it and boosted him in.
>He
>> flew the mission. The mission wasn't quite a milk run but we had no losses
>and
>> all came back fine. Jones never spoke to me again. Any time we met he
>would
>> avoid eye contact. If I were in the officers club he would either leave or
>sit
>> as far away as possible with his back to me. I guess he was just too
>> embarrassed about what he revealed. That incident only took two or three
>> minutes at the most. And I haven't thought about it since that day, until
>a
>> recent incident brought it to mind. I was always glad that I could help
>him
>> through a bad time. I wonder how Jones feels about that moment when he
>thinks
>> about it today?
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>Everyone has a "limit.....a "maximum effort" as they say. No one has ever
>really clearly defined it as far as I know. The guys I know have told me
>they just somehow kept going. Some would even throw up as they walked out of
>the ready room or as they climbed into their planes. I've heard it all
>through the years I guess.
>One thing I think I've come to know during my many talks with close personal
>friends who have come out of combat, is that I'm very careful in considering
>the coward factor...and so, I might add, are many of these combat veterans.
>Many broke down themselves at times, when things just piled on to the point
>where they thought they were coming apart. Most got it together, both alone,
>but also with the help of a friend or two.
>I wouldn't be too quick to condemn this "Lt. Jones". I think I'd first have
>to consider how many missions he had already flown. Then I think I'd give
>serious consideration to the fact that after he talked to you and spilled
>his guts, he got on the aircraft and flew the mission.
>Who knows what a man's limit is? I don't. I do know that fear can be a
>powerful thing, especially when it's cumulative and constant.
>So where does this leave you with Lt. Jones? Well, unless you know something
>additional about him that directly relates to cowardice, I'd cut him a
>little slack. Now what does this mean?To me it means that every man in your
>squadron was an individual, each facing his own demons in his own way. Men
>in such a predicament seldom share their "demons" with their fellows. I'm
>sure you remember this more so than I. There must have been times you were
>scared right on up to your personal limit, but somehow you sucked it in and
>kept going. I believe there's something within a person in combat that keeps
>him going beyond fear for self, because the fear of failing, and the fear of
>failing the others, especially on a bomber crew, is actually greater than
>the personal fear.
>I think this guy just reached his limit before you did, and you were there
>to help him through it. If I were you, I'd just try and understand what
>happened and accept it without any deep deductive reasoning. It's
>unfortunately the price sometimes, of helping someone through a crisis like
>the one you have described, where someone has allowed you to look deep
>within their most personal fear, that afterward, they find further contact
>difficult.
>I would be interested to know how Lt. Jones made it through the rest of his
>tour?
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/CFI
>Retired
>

I am telling the story as it happened as fear has been a subject around here
from time to time. I think the point is that as frightened as he was, he
realised that not flying was a worse alternative than flying.This is a story
that raises emotions. Anyone who has doubts about his own courage in battle
identifies and is threatened by it and reacts accordingly.
They either attack the story or attack me for relating it. In the many E-mails
I get for my website a large number express doubt and question how well they
would have fared had they been with us on those missions. And you can read the
self-doubt in every line. I assure them they would have done fine. I always
thought it was the polite thing to do. But I Never would have encouraged him
not to fly. If I have to fly, so does he. No free lunch, no free rides.Ever.
For anyone. If I have to go, then you have to go. Civilians don't understand
that, but I am sure you do Dudley.
..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Crusader561
July 3rd 03, 06:23 PM
(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> "....... I'm going to die today......".

[deletions]

I'm curious as to why you label this anecdote "cowardice"?
It seems to me that his actions demonstrate the exact opposite
characteristic. In spite of his fear he went on the mission.
If the guy **** his pants, vomited, bawled his eyes out, and
cried for mama before every mission but still flew them and did
his duty it still would not be cowardice.

If you think of the level of fear he had to overcome to fly
that mission he exhibited far more courage than yourself that
day.

Sometimes I just don't get you at all Art.

ArtKramr
July 3rd 03, 06:33 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: (Crusader561)
>Date: 7/3/03 10:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> "....... I'm going to die today......".
>
>[deletions]
>
>I'm curious as to why you label this anecdote "cowardice"?
>It seems to me that his actions demonstrate the exact opposite
>characteristic. In spite of his fear he went on the mission.
>If the guy **** his pants, vomited, bawled his eyes out, and
>cried for mama before every mission but still flew them and did
>his duty it still would not be cowardice.
>
>If you think of the level of fear he had to overcome to fly
>that mission he exhibited far more courage than yourself that
>day.
>
>Sometimes I just don't get you at all Art.
>

And what is your expertise on courage? Tell me about it.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr
July 3rd 03, 06:52 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: (Gordon)
>Date: 7/3/03 9:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I wouldn't put "Lt. Jones" in the coward category - given enough
>opportunities
>facing mortal danger, men develop cracks. Day 1 of SERE training, the
>instructors explain "John Wayne is dead", i.e., there is no such thing as an
>unbreakable soul. I am glad that the experiences you had did not break you,
>but given the ferocity of the conflict, it should be a point of compassion to
>understand that other men may have had lower breaking points - it doesn't
>relegate all such men to the ranks of the craven cowards. There are levels
>of
>course. LMF (coward) for those pilots and crews that intentionally bombed
>the
>Channel or took some other easy way out; the "twitch" for those men
>progressively losing their SA and flying skills while endangering the other
>airmen in their units by making poor choices as a result of too many missions
>in combat. Is that better than raising your hand to say "I got the shakes
>real
>bad today, Doc", and missing a single mission?
>
>Art, I had a similar situation - not combat, but one where I was flying in a
>very unsafe environment, to the point we had fatal accidents within our
>aircraft type with sickening regularity. After one particularly nasty crash
>killed some of our more popular squadronmates, a ******* that was overseas
>decided to "un-volunteer" for night flying - he was immediately grounded and
>never flew again. We ostrasized him completely and his actions directly
>screwed me up, personally, for the following year. I -hated- that guy. Deep
>in what's left of my soul, still do. I mean, how can you just QUIT when
>folks
>are expecting you to perform?
>
>Several years later, I was out of the military and scouting for a new career,
>which included ride-alongs with ambulances and paramedic/firefighters. I
>thought it was a perfect fit, until two of our first three calls included
>dead
>kids. I don't think of myself as a coward, but I knew at that moment that I
>wasn't psychologically strong enough to continue. I guess some of the guys
>on
>that rig would have reason to think of me as a coward, whether right or
>wrong.
>
>I have to accept that the man I continue to hate for quitting was at the same
>place I reached, looking down at a kid's scattered remains. Tolerating the
>weaknesses of those around you is a human quality every bit as important as
>bravery - most people do not spend 75+ years demonstrating continuous acts of
>bravery, but all of us have to deal with the limitations of those around us,
>every day.
>
>All of that said, Lt. Jones probably did benefit from your boot in his ass
>that
>day. I'd hate to think that friends couldn't support each other like that in
>moments of weakness, without permanently earning the title of coward.
>
>v/r
>Gordon


He wasn't a coward,He only had a moment of fear that was about to destroy him.
And fear in a unit spreads like wildfire. Had he refused to fly he would have
instanatly lost every friend in the unit he ever had. He would have been an
obrect of contempt and derision. What I did was not just for him, it was for
all of us as well. And had you been in my place, you would have done exactly as
I did. I only put the story under cowardice because that has been an ongoing
subject around here for some time now. I wonder how he thinks about himself
now when he thinks back 60 years? I would love to know. Remember he wouldn't
talk to me or face me after that incident. So I wonder if he thinks I did him
a favor or not. By the way, I repeated this incident to no one in the goup. I
didn't even mention it to my pilot and copilot even though we were very close.
I mention it here and on my website because I think it part of war and worth
mentioning. And human values are a good beak from the endless techy numbers
and statistics that grow rather quickly tiresome.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Gordon
July 3rd 03, 07:36 PM
>Had he refused to fly he would have
>instanatly lost every friend in the unit he ever had. He would have been an
>obrect of contempt and derision. What I did was not just for him, it was for
>all of us as well. And had you been in my place, you would have done exactly
>as
>I did.

I agree. In fact, I did precisely the same thing to the guy that screwed me up
by quitting. I didn't care that he screwed up my well-planned tour of duty, I
was enraged by the fact that he had accepted the risks of flying and then
decided he was too good to risk his own neck. Given that we weren't in combat
and faced less than 1000th of the danger that you did, I'd say that what
motivated him was a baser, more self-serving act of cowardice than your Lt.
Jones - we all felt this guy was using the recent fatal crash as a excuse to
hide behind. His idea was that he would continue to fly day missions - which,
he judged, was safe enough that he would not be endangering a precious human
life (such as his own) - while the rather more exhilerating night missions
would have to be flown by someone else. I guess that tells you what he thought
of the guys he flew with. My reaction was to insist that the "night" guy flew
nothing but days while I covered the other pink and dark flights. I spent the
time I was assigned to his detachment almost continuously barking at the
'quitter' because I felt shame that he was one of us. Honestly, if it was
after a period of combat, I think I could have accepted his skittishness, but
after sucking up years of Navy pay to do a specific, rather dangerous job, just
quitting while his comrades were deployed overseas seemed the very pinnacle of
self-centered callousness.

> I only put the story under cowardice because that has been an ongoing
>subject around here for some time now. I wonder how he thinks about himself
>now when he thinks back 60 years? I would love to know. Remember he wouldn't
>talk to me or face me after that incident. So I wonder if he thinks I did
>him
>a favor or not. By the way, I repeated this incident to no one in the goup. I
>didn't even mention it to my pilot and copilot even though we were very
>close.
>I mention it here and on my website because I think it part of war and worth
>mentioning. And human values are a good beak from the endless techy numbers
>and statistics that grow rather quickly tiresome.

Yep.

v/r
Gordon

Stephen Harding
July 3rd 03, 08:11 PM
ArtKramr wrote:

> I mention it here and on my website because I think it part of war and worth
> mentioning. And human values are a good beak from the endless techy numbers
> and statistics that grow rather quickly tiresome.

Context is everything!

Sitting here nice and comfy, perhaps worrying about finishing a project on
time or wondering what you want to do for the coming weekend, it is very
easy to be compassionate and patient with friends or acquaintances or actions.

In another context, patience and "compassion" might cost too much! Get more
into a "me or them" environment and see how much of a beast resides in all
of us!

We like to think social qualities have value irrespective of environment, and
perhaps they do, but when times are tough...really, really tough...a little
savagery may be what it takes to make it through the difficulties. Savage
in behavior or savage in psychology or both.

Lots of people now look on Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings in entirely negative
terms. That largely wasn't the case in 1945 in the US and any country that
was going to have its people fighting in an invasion of the Japanese mainland.

Were the people of 1945 a lot more savage and brutal than we are today? I
doubt it. Just different contexts for making judgements.


SMH

S. Sampson
July 3rd 03, 08:12 PM
"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >From: (Crusader561)
> >
> >Sometimes I just don't get you at all Art.
>
> And what is your expertise on courage? Tell me about it.

It doesn't matter. Your story is indicative of a personality that just
has to wrench their arms to pat themselves on the back.

I think you are less than the man who you fictionalize to make
yourself into a hero.

Keep working on your fiction, you're style remains too juvenile
for adult consumption. I would think 8 year old kids would
probably understand the bravado, and drinking in bars to prove
yourself a "man."

Walt BJ
July 4th 03, 05:10 AM
Give Art a little credit. He may be trying to tell y'all who haven't
been there what it's like.
If you haven't been there - haven't realized that in just a few more
seconds there will be no more you - I say you haven't a clue. Nor have
you experienced after what you saw coming didn't materialize what a
wonderful thing it is to be alive and how beautiful the earth is.
As for heroism - the person who is internally terrified and stoically
goes out and risks life again and again is far more heroic that the
one (like me) who knew that skill and experience would get him through
and only bad luck would kill him. And probability you can't argue
with, so why bother?
Walt BJ

S. Sampson
July 4th 03, 05:19 AM
"Walt BJ" > wrote
> Give Art a little credit. He may be trying to tell y'all who haven't
> been there what it's like.
> If you haven't been there - haven't realized that in just a few more
> seconds there will be no more you - I say you haven't a clue. Nor have
> you experienced after what you saw coming didn't materialize what a
> wonderful thing it is to be alive and how beautiful the earth is.
> As for heroism - the person who is internally terrified and stoically
> goes out and risks life again and again is far more heroic that the
> one (like me) who knew that skill and experience would get him through
> and only bad luck would kill him. And probability you can't argue
> with, so why bother?

We had a saying: "what happens TDY, stays TDY." What that means is
we don't need to hear about it. Everything that can possibly happen in
war, including accidents, murder, rape, and mayhem, are best left at the
port of arrival. i.e., we don't care.

Gooneybird
July 4th 03, 05:51 AM
"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
...
> "Walt BJ" > wrote

> We had a saying: "what happens TDY, stays TDY." What that means is
> we don't need to hear about it. Everything that can possibly happen in
> war, including accidents, murder, rape, and mayhem, are best left at the
> port of arrival. i.e., we don't care.
>
Everybody has cute sayings. For example, there's one that goes more or less
that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and those who are
intellectually uninquisitive are prime candidates to be exposed to history's
unhappy lessons over and over again. IOW, if you don't care, it's at your own
peril. You'll keep on getting your ass kicked until you learn not to bend over
when the kicker's around.

George Z.

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 06:15 AM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: "Gooneybird"
>Date: 7/3/03 9:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
...
>> "Walt BJ" > wrote
>
>> We had a saying: "what happens TDY, stays TDY." What that means is
>> we don't need to hear about it. Everything that can possibly happen in
>> war, including accidents, murder, rape, and mayhem, are best left at the
>> port of arrival. i.e., we don't care.
>>
>Everybody has cute sayings. For example, there's one that goes more or less
>that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and those who are
>intellectually uninquisitive are prime candidates to be exposed to history's
>unhappy lessons over and over again. IOW, if you don't care, it's at your
>own
>peril. You'll keep on getting your ass kicked until you learn not to bend
>over
>when the kicker's around.
>
>George Z.

Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go away.
Those who have no memories weren't there.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

B2431
July 4th 03, 06:20 AM
>Give Art a little credit. He may be trying to tell y'all who haven't
>been there what it's like.
>If you haven't been there - haven't realized that in just a few more
>seconds there will be no more you - I say you haven't a clue. Nor have
>you experienced after what you saw coming didn't materialize what a
>wonderful thing it is to be alive and how beautiful the earth is.
>As for heroism - the person who is internally terrified and stoically
>goes out and risks life again and again is far more heroic that the
>one (like me) who knew that skill and experience would get him through
>and only bad luck would kill him. And probability you can't argue
>with, so why bother?
>Walt BJ
>
Agreed, I was terrified in my first action and I was just as terrified in my
last. It just never occurred to me to say no. I'm not a hero by any stretch of
the imagination, but I met a few both when I was Army and when I was Air Force
who were heroes by any definition.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Alan Minyard
July 4th 03, 03:15 PM
On 03 Jul 2003 16:29:02 GMT, (Gordon) wrote:

>I wouldn't put "Lt. Jones" in the coward category - given enough opportunities
>facing mortal danger, men develop cracks. Day 1 of SERE training, the
>instructors explain "John Wayne is dead", i.e., there is no such thing as an
>unbreakable soul. I am glad that the experiences you had did not break you,
>but given the ferocity of the conflict, it should be a point of compassion to
>understand that other men may have had lower breaking points - it doesn't
>relegate all such men to the ranks of the craven cowards. There are levels of
>course. LMF (coward) for those pilots and crews that intentionally bombed the
>Channel or took some other easy way out; the "twitch" for those men
>progressively losing their SA and flying skills while endangering the other
>airmen in their units by making poor choices as a result of too many missions
>in combat. Is that better than raising your hand to say "I got the shakes real
>bad today, Doc", and missing a single mission?
>
>Art, I had a similar situation - not combat, but one where I was flying in a
>very unsafe environment, to the point we had fatal accidents within our
>aircraft type with sickening regularity. After one particularly nasty crash
>killed some of our more popular squadronmates, a ******* that was overseas
>decided to "un-volunteer" for night flying - he was immediately grounded and
>never flew again. We ostrasized him completely and his actions directly
>screwed me up, personally, for the following year. I -hated- that guy. Deep
>in what's left of my soul, still do. I mean, how can you just QUIT when folks
>are expecting you to perform?
>
>Several years later, I was out of the military and scouting for a new career,
>which included ride-alongs with ambulances and paramedic/firefighters. I
>thought it was a perfect fit, until two of our first three calls included dead
>kids. I don't think of myself as a coward, but I knew at that moment that I
>wasn't psychologically strong enough to continue. I guess some of the guys on
>that rig would have reason to think of me as a coward, whether right or wrong.
>
Not at all. As an EMT, I recognize (as do almost all others in the
field) that emergency medicine is a very emotion-filled field. Some
people simply cannot stand the strain, while others (my self included)
compensate in various "self destructive" manners. Being a volunteer,
there have been many times that we have been paged out to what sounds
like an especially nasty call, and as I headed for the rescue truck my
thoughts have been along the lines of "why not stay home, why face
this? I think that the thing that keeps me going is the fact that we
have more successes than failures. Getting calls like you did is not
terribly uncommon, but on a first ride they would be quite unusual.
Just a case of bad timing. If you had seed the successful
resuscitation of a child, or a successful vehicle extrication you
might have stayed in the field.

As one who has been there and done that, I would never question your
courage.


>I have to accept that the man I continue to hate for quitting was at the same
>place I reached, looking down at a kid's scattered remains. Tolerating the
>weaknesses of those around you is a human quality every bit as important as
>bravery - most people do not spend 75+ years demonstrating continuous acts of
>bravery, but all of us have to deal with the limitations of those around us,
>every day.
>
>All of that said, Lt. Jones probably did benefit from your boot in his ass that
>day. I'd hate to think that friends couldn't support each other like that in
>moments of weakness, without permanently earning the title of coward.
>
>v/r
>Gordon

We have what are called "critical incident stress debriefing teams"
now, and in all probability one would have counseled your crew after
the incident with the child. They can, and do, help greatly.

Al Minyard

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 03:28 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: Alan Minyard
>Date: 7/4/03 7:15 AM Pacific

>Not at all. As an EMT, I recognize (as do almost all others in the
>field) that emergency medicine is a very emotion-filled field. Some
>people simply cannot stand the strain, while others (my self included)
>compensate in various "self destructive" manners. Being a volunteer,

As an EMT this incident might interest you.

DEATH ONTHE RUNWAY

During the winter of 1944-45 the Germans attacked through the Ardennes towards
the Meuse in the Dinant Namur area in what became known as the Battle of the
Bulge. It started on December 16th with the weather socked in with heavy ground
fog and fast moving low scud under ten tenths cover. The 344th had stood down
waiting for the skies to clear until German forces could be attacked. During
this period, our weather officer, Paul Forant (Boston) gave us very little hope
for the immediate future, but he did say that the skies would be clear for a
mission on January 1st, 1945. On that morning we were taxiing out for takeoff
when suddenly there was a huge explosion and fireball coming from the runway.
Bob Chalot's plane had lost an engine on takeoff. The plane rotated violently
toward the dead engine, hooked a wingtip and crashed back into the runway. Fuel
tanks ruptured and caught fire. A huge fireball was over the crash site and the
the crew was trapped inside the burning plane. Our fire/rescue crew rushed in
to to save the men in the burning plane. As they were working, the entire 4,000
pound bomb load exploded killing both the aircrew and the rescue crew
instantly. 10 men burned to death while their friends watched on helplessly. I
feel the need to name the men, lest we forget.
Pilot: Bob Chalot
Co-pilot: Elliot Falk
Bombardier: (name lost)
Gunners: Dunaway,Morse and Fowler

LEST WE FORGET


Rescue Crew (2058 engineers aviation)
Alton Parker
Elmer Juilly
Bill Reiker
Len Luezkowski

Lest we forget.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

July 4th 03, 05:20 PM
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>
>Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
>haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
>that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go away.
>Those who have no memories weren't there.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
serves only to irritate...

To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.

Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
that?.
--

-Gord.

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 05:32 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 7/4/03 9:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
>>haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
>>that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go
>away.
>>Those who have no memories weren't there.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
>you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
>serves only to irritate...
>
>To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.
>
>Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
>that?.
>--
>
>-Gord.
>

My point was the persistance of memory, nothing else. I am not responsible for
the sensitivity of thoise who were not there. And I refuse to write my thoughts
based on political correctness. If there are those who are senssitive about not
having served, that in no way concerns me.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

July 4th 03, 05:55 PM
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>>Date: 7/4/03 9:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>
>>Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
>>>haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
>>>that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go
>>away.
>>>Those who have no memories weren't there.
>>>
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
>>you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
>>serves only to irritate...
>>
>>To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.
>>
>>Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
>>that?.
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>>
>
>My point was the persistance of memory, nothing else.

Not a chance...you were pointing out that 'others' weren't there
(to their detriment), as if they were at fault somehow, you're
reasonably good with words, you have to see that's how it comes
across. And you knew that when you typed it too, I haven't the
slightest doubt.

> I am not responsible for
>the sensitivity of thoise who were not there. And I refuse to write my thoughts
>based on political correctness. If there are those who are senssitive about not
>having served, that in no way concerns me.
>
>Arthur Kramer

You see?, two references to people not 'being there'. Hell's
bells, was the 344 th the only war fighting unit in the war?
--

-Gord.

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 06:04 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 7/4/03 9:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>You see?, two references to people not 'being there'. Hell's
>bells, was the 344 th the only war fighting unit in the war?
>--
>
>-Gord.

It was the only unit I fought in. Your mileage may vary.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Dave Kearton
July 4th 03, 06:15 PM
"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
. ..

|
| My memories are of the first piece of ass I got in the back of my Chevy.
| I could barely keep up with her. There isn't a single day in 35 years
that I
| haven't thought about that Chevy. Those who have no memories weren't
| there.
|
|



Not forgetting those who put their hand up first ......






Cheers

Dave Kearton

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 06:16 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/4/03 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>> >
>> >Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that
>I
>> >haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of
>memory
>> >that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go
>away.
>> >Those who have no memories weren't there.
>> >
>> >
>> >Arthur Kramer
>>
>> Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
>> you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
>> serves only to irritate...
>>
>> To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.
>>
>> Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
>> that?.
>
>My memories are of the first piece of ass I got in the back of my Chevy.
>I could barely keep up with her. There isn't a single day in 35 years that I
>haven't thought about that Chevy. Those who have no memories weren't
>there.


ROFL !!!! Outstanding !!!! But you have just insulted everyone who wasn't
there and is sensitive about not having been there. Where is your political
correctness.?
I LOVE IT !!! (Grin)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 06:23 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/4/03 10:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>If there are those who are senssitive about not
>> having served, that in no way concerns me.
>
>I don't think someone who arrived in the last months of the war can
>be compared to someone who flew the first 25 missions into Germany.
>But then, since I wasn't in that war, maybe my vote doesn't count.

I flew 50 missions. And since you flew none, you are not in a position to
critisize anyone who flew any at all. You stand far behind anyone who even flew
one mission.Very far behind.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr
July 4th 03, 08:43 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: Dave Holford
>Date: 7/4/03 12:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>> >From: "Gord Beaman" )
>> >Date: 7/4/03 9:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>
>> >Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that
>I
>> >>haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of
>memory
>> >>that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go
>> >away.
>> >>Those who have no memories weren't there.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Arthur Kramer
>> >
>> >Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
>> >you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
>> >serves only to irritate...
>> >
>> >To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.
>> >
>> >Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
>> >that?.
>> >--
>> >
>> >-Gord.
>> >
>>
>> My point was the persistance of memory, nothing else. I am not responsible
>for
>> the sensitivity of thoise who were not there. And I refuse to write my
>thoughts
>> based on political correctness. If there are those who are senssitive about
>not
>> having served, that in no way concerns me.
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>
>
>It has nothing to do with 'political correctness' or 'sensitivity'; it
>is your apparent arrogance that you are superior to anyone who did not
>do what YOU did.
>
>Dave
>

Getting a little sensitive are we?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

July 4th 03, 09:09 PM
"S. Sampson" > wrote:

>My memories are of the first piece of ass I got in the back of my Chevy.
>I could barely keep up with her. There isn't a single day in 35 years that I
>haven't thought about that Chevy. Those who have no memories weren't
>there.
>

Chevy?!?....CHEVY!!!...it damned well wasn't a chevy...it was a
Studebaker 1/2 ton...cripes what's t'matter wi'your memory
guy?!?...that damned stick shift lever on the floor damned near
crippled me. :)
--

-Gord.

QDurham
July 4th 03, 11:13 PM
>Chevy?!?....CHEVY!!!...it damned well wasn't a chevy...it was a
>Studebaker 1/2 ton...cripes what's t'matter wi'your memory
>guy?!?...that damned stick shift lever on the floor damned near
>crippled me. :)

What the hell. SHE liked it.

Q

Ydusitmata
July 4th 03, 11:19 PM
ArtKramr > wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle

> >"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
> >Everybody has cute sayings. For example, there's one that goes more or
> >less that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and those who
> >are intellectually uninquisitive are prime candidates to be exposed to
> >history's unhappy lessons over and over again. IOW, if you don't care,
> >it's at your own peril. You'll keep on getting your ass kicked until you
> >learn not to bend over when the kicker's around.

> Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that
> I haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of
> memory that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will
> never go away. Those who have no memories weren't there.
>

Appears to me that someone totally there then, is not totally here now.

Extremely sad.

ronh

Dave Holford
July 5th 03, 01:43 AM
> >
> >It has nothing to do with 'political correctness' or 'sensitivity'; it
> >is your apparent arrogance that you are superior to anyone who did not
> >do what YOU did.
> >
> >Dave
> >
>
> Getting a little sensitive are we?
>
> Arthur Kramer


Not in the slightest Art.
Just tired of your juvenile efforts to dismiss anyone who does not agree
with you.

I have nothing but admiration for those who flew into danger, but in my
(note MY) opinion those guys who flew low-slow unarmed C-47s across the
line of battle to deliver airborne troops behind enemy lines were every
bit as corageous as those who flew in formations of armed aircraft;
probably more so.

Ever since the civil war observation balloons, aircrew have risked their
lives in hazardous operations, and continue to do so today. However, one
must bear in mind that those who survive a mission of a few hours get to
eat a civilized meal and sleep in a safe bed. Something that many who
also fought for our freedom did not get to do for days, maybe even weeks
on end.

I don't doubt your bravery for a moment. But there are always brave
people when they are needed.

I have spent some time in the air and on the ground with survivors of
the war you write about. I was too young to join them before, but I
tried to gain some limited understanding of what they went through. The
squadron I served with lost many aircrew bombing Germany. The fact that
I got to talk and fly with a few survivors when the fighting was over
does not make me a hero, or a wanabee, or anything else you care to try
and characterize me as; except a guy who wanted to fly and was lucky
enough to get some guidance from people who had 'been there, done
that'.

Dave

ArtKramr
July 5th 03, 02:41 AM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: Dave Holford
>Date: 7/4/03 5:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>> >
>> >It has nothing to do with 'political correctness' or 'sensitivity'; it
>> >is your apparent arrogance that you are superior to anyone who did not
>> >do what YOU did.
>> >
>> >Dave
>> >
>>
>> Getting a little sensitive are we?
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>
>Not in the slightest Art.
>Just tired of your juvenile efforts to dismiss anyone who does not agree
>with you.
>
>I have nothing but admiration for those who flew into danger, but in my
>(note MY) opinion those guys who flew low-slow unarmed C-47s across the
>line of battle to deliver airborne troops behind enemy lines were every
>bit as corageous as those who flew in formations of armed aircraft;
>probably more so.
>
>Ever since the civil war observation balloons, aircrew have risked their
>lives in hazardous operations, and continue to do so today. However, one
>must bear in mind that those who survive a mission of a few hours get to
>eat a civilized meal and sleep in a safe bed. Something that many who
>also fought for our freedom did not get to do for days, maybe even weeks
>on end.
>
>I don't doubt your bravery for a moment. But there are always brave
>people when they are needed.
>
>I have spent some time in the air and on the ground with survivors of
>the war you write about. I was too young to join them before, but I
>tried to gain some limited understanding of what they went through. The
>squadron I served with lost many aircrew bombing Germany. The fact that
>I got to talk and fly with a few survivors when the fighting was over
>does not make me a hero, or a wanabee, or anything else you care to try
>and characterize me as; except a guy who wanted to fly and was lucky
>enough to get some guidance from people who had 'been there, done
>that'.
>
>Dave
>

Yes. And of course you recognise the importance of having been there and done
that.I wish more would.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Richard Lamb
July 5th 03, 04:49 AM
ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
> >From: "S. Sampson"
> >Date: 7/4/03 10:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id:
>
> >If there are those who are senssitive about not
> >> having served, that in no way concerns me.
> >
> >I don't think someone who arrived in the last months of the war can
> >be compared to someone who flew the first 25 missions into Germany.
> >But then, since I wasn't in that war, maybe my vote doesn't count.
>
> I flew 50 missions. And since you flew none, you are not in a position to
> critisize anyone who flew any at all. You stand far behind anyone who even flew
> one mission.Very far behind.

I dunno, Art.

I found exception with what you said too.

I flew over 200 missions.
ALL of them far behind "enemy lines".

But Viet Nam probably doesn't count, does it.


Richard

>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr
July 6th 03, 01:17 PM
>Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>From: Richard Lamb
>Date: 7/4/03 8:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Cowardice in Battle
>> >From: "S. Sampson"
>> >Date: 7/4/03 10:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id:
>>
>> >If there are those who are senssitive about not
>> >> having served, that in no way concerns me.
>> >
>> >I don't think someone who arrived in the last months of the war can
>> >be compared to someone who flew the first 25 missions into Germany.
>> >But then, since I wasn't in that war, maybe my vote doesn't count.
>>
>> I flew 50 missions. And since you flew none, you are not in a position to
>> critisize anyone who flew any at all. You stand far behind anyone who even
>flew
>> one mission.Very far behind.
>
>I dunno, Art.
>
>I found exception with what you said too.
>
>I flew over 200 missions.
>ALL of them far behind "enemy lines".
>
>But Viet Nam probably doesn't count, does it.
>


Then don't attack those who also flew missions.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

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