Re: First Aircraft to 'use' TFR

[S. Sampson]

"Jeremy Thomson" > wrote
> I put the 'use' in quotes becuase I believe TFR modes on radars have
> been around since the 50's.


Vulcan bomber. TFR worked just fine.

[Cub Driver]

>I put the 'use' in quotes becuase I believe TFR modes on radars have
>been around since the 50's.

Is there an activity more addicted to acronyms than flying?

To me, TFR means Temporary Flight Restriction, as when Bush II visits
Bush I at Kennebunkport and shuts down Cub operations within 30 miles.

(Incidentally, I got permission to enter the Class D airspace that
envelopes my home, so I could tour the area and show off my flying
skills to an adoring family. ATC kept asking me things like: "Are you
to the north?" "I just crossed Adams Point 2 miles west." "Is that you
circling?" At this point it dawned on me that ATC was looking at his
radar and simply couldn't see the Cub because it has no transponder
and no aluminum except for the cowling.)


all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Anonymous]

Cub Driver wrote in message ...
>
>>I put the 'use' in quotes becuase I believe TFR modes on radars have
>>been around since the 50's.
>
>Is there an activity more addicted to acronyms than flying?

Computing. Oh yes.

AI
ASCII
GB
KB
MB
PCMCIA
ISA
PCI
AGP
EISA
RAM
ROM
CPU
MHz
GHz
SDR
DDR
IDE
ATAPI
SCSI
SATA
DOS
CD
CDR
CDRW
DVD
DVDR
DVDRW
....
....
....

The list is seemingly endless. I could go on with the acronyms...

Cheers
Graeme

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Vulcan bomber. TFR worked just fine.
>

Wasn't TFR a post-production modification to the Vulcan?

[Bill Silvey]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
rthlink.net
> "S. Sampson" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Vulcan bomber. TFR worked just fine.
>>
>
> Wasn't TFR a post-production modification to the Vulcan?

Didn't A6-A have TFR? Or am I thinking radar altimeter...?

--
http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

[John R Weiss]

"Bill Silvey" > wrote...
>
> Didn't A6-A have TFR? Or am I thinking radar altimeter...?

The A-6 had TFR, but it wasn't connected to the autopilot. Terrain Following
flight was done manually, with reference to the TFR display.

[Bill Silvey]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:JW2Na.97575$R73.10439@sccrnsc04
> "Bill Silvey" > wrote...
>>
>> Didn't A6-A have TFR? Or am I thinking radar altimeter...?
>
> The A-6 had TFR, but it wasn't connected to the autopilot. Terrain
> Following flight was done manually, with reference to the TFR display.

"You so much as hiccup at that altitude and you're dead." Grafton resisted
telling Parker he wasn't given to hiccups when flying over North Vietnam.



--
http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

[The Raven]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
>
> "S. Sampson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Vulcan bomber. TFR worked just fine.
> >
>
> Wasn't TFR a post-production modification to the Vulcan?

Yes, it was originally intended for high altitude bombing. Amazing how the
aircraft was so versatile.

The Raven

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
(Jeremy Thomson) writes:
> I put the 'use' in quotes becuase I believe TFR modes on radars have
> been around since the 50's.
> But was TFR ever SOP for aircraft such as the F105?
> Did pilots ever train for TFR flights in the Thud?
> There was a TFR mode for the A4, but it was dangerous to use in a
> cross-wind because the radar only looked a couple of degrees off the
> center line.

Well, as for the F-105, Ed Rasimus really should do the talking.
That said, the F-105, and the F-104G, which basically had the same
system, had, IIRC< a Terrain Avoidance Mode", rather than a Terrain
Following Mode. The processing that went along with this mode
presented any targets that jutted up abpve a "Clearance Plane" - an
imaginary flat surface radiating out from in front of the airplane,
and which could be adjusted to provide for differnt cruise altitudes.
It wasn't coupled to the Autopilot, though, so it wasn't automatic -
the pilot had to make any altitude changes or course diversions
necessary.

As for crosswinds being a hindeance to teh A-4s TAR set, I'm not so
sure. In order to be crabbed a significant amount at 400 kts would
require a hurricane. (crab angle's going to be related to teh ratio
of teh component of wind velocity that's at roght angles to the
airplane's course, and the speed of the airplane. The faster you go,
th eless crab is required.

> My pick for the first use of TFR in combat would be the F-111.

And you'd win! The Texas Instruments TFR on the F-111 was the first
fully automatic TFR to be developed. It took a lot of debugging, as
well.

> Did the Brits use TFR on the tornadoes in Desert Storm?
> IIRC the pilots of tornadoes used night goggles douring the low-level
> missions.

They did use TFR, but that doesn't preclude looking out of the window.

> It might have been possible to fly low level without using the radar.

It can be, as long as you're not doing a whole lot else.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[matheson]

USAF RF-4C had a TA and TFR mode. Both were manual, but they were there.
Other F-4 models did not have those modes.

--
Les
F-4C(WW),E,D,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-13E EWO ret.





---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.495 / Virus Database: 294 - Release Date: 6/30/2003

[robert arndt]

"The Raven" > wrote in message >...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> rthlink.net...
> >
> > "S. Sampson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Vulcan bomber. TFR worked just fine.
> > >
> >
> > Wasn't TFR a post-production modification to the Vulcan?
>
> Yes, it was originally intended for high altitude bombing. Amazing how the
> aircraft was so versatile.
>
> The Raven


The modification was introduced in 1966 to all the RAFs bombers;
however, the previously cancelled TSR-2 would have had a highly
advanced Ferranti TFR. One aircraft prototype minus the TFR performed
low level terrain following at 250' at Mach .9 shadowed by a
Lightning. Since 1962 RAF bomber pilots were being trained to fly low
and fast at between 300-500 ft. The TSR-2 with the Ferranti TFR would
have been a fantastic low level penetrator as its TFR was designed to
allow the pilots to hug the earth at over Mach 1.

Rob

Rob

Rob

[Stuart Chapman]

"Jeremy Thomson" > wrote in message
...
> I put the 'use' in quotes becuase I believe TFR modes on radars have
> been around since the 50's.
> But was TFR ever SOP for aircraft such as the F105?
> Did pilots ever train for TFR flights in the Thud?
> There was a TFR mode for the A4, but it was dangerous to use in a
> cross-wind because the radar only looked a couple of degrees off the
> center line.
> My pick for the first use of TFR in combat would be the F-111.
> Did the Brits use TFR on the tornadoes in Desert Storm?
> IIRC the pilots of tornadoes used night goggles douring the low-level
> missions.
> It might have been possible to fly low level without using the radar.
>
> Jeremy Thomson

I understand that the BAC TSR-2 had a TFR, but I don't know if it was ever
used...

I also don't know whether this was before or after the TFR on the F-111

Stupot

[buf3]

"matheson" > wrote in message >...
> USAF RF-4C had a TA and TFR mode. Both were manual, but they were there.
> Other F-4 models did not have those modes.
>
> --
> Les
> F-4C(WW),E,D,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-13E EWO ret.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.495 / Virus Database: 294 - Release Date: 6/30/2003

B-52 D models got a system in the early 60s.

Gene Myers

[robert arndt]

> I understand that the BAC TSR-2 had a TFR, but I don't know if it was ever
> used...
>
> I also don't know whether this was before or after the TFR on the F-111
>
> Stupot

Refer to my earlier post in this thread...

Rob

[John Halliwell]

In article >, Bill Silvey
> writes
>"You so much as hiccup at that altitude and you're dead." Grafton resisted
>telling Parker he wasn't given to hiccups when flying over North Vietnam.

Bit like Guy Gibson V.C. discussing flying 60ft over water at night in
WWII "You only need to hiccup at that height and you'd be in the drink".

--
John