Sir George Cayley

[Dingo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3042182.stm
The forgotten father of flight

Article and links to related websites.
-=-
John Ding (UK)

[av8r]

> Columbus discovered America

Hi Dan

The Vikings were in this part of the world circa 1,000 A.D.
That's a long long time before Columbus was just a tingle in his
father's loins.

Cheers...Chris

[Keith Willshaw]

"av8r" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Columbus discovered America
>
> Hi Dan
>
> The Vikings were in this part of the world circa 1,000 A.D.
> That's a long long time before Columbus was just a tingle in his
> father's loins.
>
> Cheers...Chris
>

The people who became Native Americans are believed to have crossed
from Asia some 14,000 years ago so if you are looking for a discoverer
of America I'd suggest they have a rather better claim :)

Keith

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not really. Just as there was only one #1 jet fighter in WWII, there
> were only the two co-fathers of flight, Wilbur and Orville.
>

Well, yes, there were only two co-fathers of flight, and they were brothers,
but their names were Joseph and Etienne, not Wilbur and Orville.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"av8r" > wrote in message
...
>
> The Vikings were in this part of the world circa 1,000 A.D.
> That's a long long time before Columbus was just a tingle in his
> father's loins.
>

But the Vikings didn't spread the word, Columbus did.

[Lawrence Dillard]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Not really. Just as there was only one #1 jet fighter in WWII, there
> > were only the two co-fathers of flight, Wilbur and Orville.
> >

The British Meteor was tops overall for WWII; all the others either had
significant defects in terms of fabrication or functional utility which
tended to make themdeath-traps fpor their pilots (Me-262) or were too late
to participate (Vampire, P-80). At least two versions of the Meteor went
operational during the times, both of which were functional and mature
..
>
> Well, yes, there were only two co-fathers of flight, and they were
brothers,
> but their names were Joseph and Etienne, not Wilbur and Orville.
>
>
I've always been partial to Daedelus and Icarus, because other than wings
and prayers, they had no means of support or power, and by all accounts,
Daedelus made a successful escape.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:47:24 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:


>Well, yes, there were only two co-fathers of flight, and they were brothers,
>but their names were Joseph and Etienne, not Wilbur and Orville.

I'd vote for Gustav and Otto.



Bye
Andreas

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd vote for Gustav and Otto.
>

I assume you mean Otto Lilienthal, but who's Gustav?

[Cub Driver]

>The Vikings were in this part of the world circa 1,000 A.D.
>That's a long long time before Columbus was just a tingle in his
>father's loins.

This would explain why we celebrate Lief Erikson Day, and why most of
North America speaks Norwegian as its first language?

If it doesn't have consequences, it wasn't discovery.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Cub Driver]

>Well, yes, there were only two co-fathers of flight, and they were brothers,
>but their names were Joseph and Etienne, not Wilbur and Orville.

Joe Who?

The world was full of folks who jumped off roofs, went up in balloons
and gliders, and crashed motorized airplanes into rivers, but that was
not powered flight. That was failure. The Wright Bros succeeded. To
them goes the palm, and the world's memory.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Cub Driver]

>
>The British Meteor was tops overall for WWII

The top jet fighter, that was never in air-to-air combat? Shucks,
maybe the Bell Airacuda was the best piston-engine fighter of the war.

The Meteor, like the P-80, came too late for the banquet. And George
Cayley didn't trust his glider enough to go up in it. And Saint
Brendan went back to Ireland without getting his passport stamped.
They were attempts that didn't quite make it, for one reason or
another, and serve only to gratify patriotic passions and conspiracy
theorists.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> This would explain why we celebrate Lief Erikson Day, and why most of
> North America speaks Norwegian as its first language?
>

I don't follow. Most inhabitants of North America speak English as their
first language, but I don't believe Columbus did. Did Columbus speak
English at all?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Joe Who?
>

Montgolfier.


>
> The world was full of folks who jumped off roofs, went up in balloons
> and gliders, and crashed motorized airplanes into rivers, but that was
> not powered flight. That was failure. The Wright Bros succeeded. To
> them goes the palm, and the world's memory.
>

You didn't say co-fathers of powered flight, you said co-fathers of flight.
Balloon flight is still flight.

[Urban Fredriksson]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:

>This would explain why we celebrate Lief Erikson Day,

Yes, it does. (Leif Erikson Day is October 9:th in the USA.)

>If it doesn't have consequences, it wasn't discovery.

Well, it wasn't exactly like Vinland and Greenland were
instantly or totally forgotten, it was more like the
knowledge wasn't very useful, with the climate change and
all. So by your definition, it was discovery, and
analogously some of the pre-1903 pioneers' actions did
have consequences.
--
Urban Fredriksson http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
Things that try to look like things often look more like
things than things do.

[Cub Driver]

>I don't follow. Most inhabitants of North America speak English as their
>first language, but I don't believe Columbus did. Did Columbus speak
>English at all?

Most inhabitants of the Americas speak Spanish as their first
language, as a consequence of Columbus's discovery (or opening, if you
prefer) of the New World. Next in importance as discovers and
exploiters were the English, and a distant third were the French. The
Irish and the Vikings were of no importance in this process; their
voyages had no consequences; they might as well have stayed at home,
for all the impact those voyages had on history.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Cub Driver]

>Yes, it does. (Leif Erikson Day is October 9:th in the USA.)

A fact that is known to what percentage of Americans (a term that
includes in this usage all residents of the Americas)?

One millioneth of one percent?

Be serious.

Is Lief Erikson Day celebrated even in Norway? When I was in Madrid on
12 Oct 1957, I was amused and touched to discover that Columbus Day
was a big event in Spain--bigger, in fact, that it presently is in the
U.S.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> If you like. It's not flight to me.
>

If it's not flight to you then you don't know what flight is.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Most inhabitants of the Americas speak Spanish as their first
> language,
>

That may very well be, but if you review your previous message you'll
discover that you already limited the area of discussion to North America.

[Dave Holford]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >Balloon flight is still flight.
>
> If you like. It's not flight to me. I think it would be impractical
> for Virgin Atlantic to install video monitors in coach on a balloon
> flight.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford


Why? From what I have seen there were pretty luxurious accomodations on
some trans-atlantic airships - hell of a lot more comfortable looking
than coach in a jetliner.

Dave

[Andrew Chaplin]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > A fact that is known to what percentage of Americans (a term that
> > includes in this usage all residents of the Americas)?
> >
>
> That's not correct, "Americans" as it is used today refers only to citizens
> of the United States.

So say you. On what authority?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[John Cook]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 06:21:00 -0400, Cub Driver >
wrote:

>>
>>The British Meteor was tops overall for WWII
>
>The top jet fighter, that was never in air-to-air combat? Shucks,
>maybe the Bell Airacuda was the best piston-engine fighter of the war.
>
>The Meteor, like the P-80, came too late for the banquet. And George
>Cayley didn't trust his glider enough to go up in it.

Something the NASA boffins who designed the space shuttle also agreed
with - send someone else....

>
>all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
>Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-

Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[Urban Fredriksson]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:

>>Yes, it does. (Leif Erikson Day is October 9:th in the USA.)

>A fact that is known to what percentage of Americans (a term that
>includes in this usage all residents of the Americas)?
>
>One millioneth of one percent?
>
>Be serious.

I don't think you're serious. Why would foreigners know
when that day is in USA? (And the number doesn't make
sense anyway.)

But no, it doesn't seem he's celebrated south of USA, if that's
what you're thinking of:

<http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/eriksson/introduction.html>
--
Urban Fredriksson http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
A boundary between the known and the unknown always exists.

[Cub Driver]

>That's not correct, "Americans" as it is used today refers only to citizens
>of the United States.

To most of the Americas, citizens of the United States are called
Norte Americanos or U.S.-ians.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> To most of the Americas, citizens of the United States are called
> Norte Americanos or U.S.-ians.
>

Wrong.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, I'll allow a footnote for the Zeppilins, as a failed branch of
> flight. But balloons get involved in flight only as obstacles to Cubs
> flying low and slow.
>

But they do get involved in flight.

[Andrew Chaplin]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> Pull your head out of your ass. When you see some group on the evening news
> chanting "Death to America!" do you think they're ****ed off at Bolivia?

No need to get vulgar. And I think you must mean "arse"; city bylaws
restrict where we can keep draught animals around here, and I don't
have any.

Groups chanting on the news are your authority? They're not mine. Are
they lexicographers? Just because they use a connotation of the word,
does not mean they have altered the denotative meaning.

"Americans" includes all of us within the Americas.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Andrew Chaplin]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > To most of the Americas, citizens of the United States are called
> > Norte Americanos or U.S.-ians.
> >
>
> Wrong.

Dan's translation is essentially correct; hispanophones use
"estadunidenses" and francophones use (more uncommonly, I admit)
"étasuniseins" when referring to citizens of the United States.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Dan's translation is essentially correct; hispanophones use
> "estadunidenses" and francophones use (more uncommonly, I admit)
> "étasuniseins" when referring to citizens of the United States.
>

But not Norte Americanos or U.S.-ians.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> The top jet fighter, that was never in air-to-air combat? Shucks,
> maybe the Bell Airacuda was the best piston-engine fighter of the war.
>
> The Meteor, like the P-80, came too late for the banquet.
>

The Meteor was in air combat in World War II.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
...
>
> The Oxford English Dictionary and the _Memoirs_ of Sir Robert Laird
> Borden, Prime Minister of Canada during the Great War..
>
> From the OED, "American... sb. 2. A native of America of European
> descent, esp. a citizen of the United States."
>
> So it is not restricted solely to citizens of the U.S. Borden's
> _Memoirs_ shows that Canadians persisted in thinking of themselves as
> Americans too even 60 years after Confederation (he was writing in the
> 1930s of exchanges at the Imperial War Cabinet during the Great War).
>

Well, I guess they got it wrong then.

[Andrew Chaplin]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> "Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > The Oxford English Dictionary and the _Memoirs_ of Sir Robert Laird
> > Borden, Prime Minister of Canada during the Great War..
> >
> > From the OED, "American... sb. 2. A native of America of European
> > descent, esp. a citizen of the United States."
> >
> > So it is not restricted solely to citizens of the U.S. Borden's
> > _Memoirs_ shows that Canadians persisted in thinking of themselves as
> > Americans too even 60 years after Confederation (he was writing in the
> > 1930s of exchanges at the Imperial War Cabinet during the Great War).
> >
>
> Well, I guess they got it wrong then.

Not Pygmalion likely.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)