If you are looking for a fight...

[ArtKramr]

There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or "luck"
they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight, just
try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to the
ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign it". He
will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into battle
with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your mouth
shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I wanted
combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with that.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/7/03 8:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or
>"luck"
>>they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight,
>just
>>try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to the
>>ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign it".
>He
>>will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into
>battle
>>with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your
>mouth
>>shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I
>wanted
>>combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with that.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>Sorry, Art, but you're talking about a time and process that has been
>long gone. There's lots of procedure to get a transfer and it hasn't
>been approved at the local commander level since WW II.
>
>Even if one could simply get a hand-carried, personal choice
>assignment approved by a local commander to switch to a deploying
>unit, it would take considerable time and money to get the individual
>operationally qualified to perform effectively with the organization.
>Time that a unit doesn't have when they are enroute to battle.
>
>I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
>get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
>happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
>active duty.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038


Ed.,

Thanks for the update.
When the war ended my pilot(Paul Shorts) got out of Marauders and into C-47's
by just the procedure I decribed. I guess they just don't make wars the way
they used to. I think I liked the old way better..(sigh)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Art Kramer
blurted out:

>There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or "luck"
>they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight, just
>try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to the
>ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign it". He
>will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into battle
>with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your mouth
>shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I wanted
>combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with that.

Imagine your surprise in August of 1990, Iraq invades Kuwait. You call
ARPC and volunteer to go back on active duty.

"No Thanks, we don't need any F-16 pilots...but if you're in Security
Police, we'd love to have you back."

So you join the local ANG unit as a non-flying staff puke. January
1991 rolls around, shooting starts, and you call ARPC again.

"Yes we'd love to have you back on active duty as an F-16 pilot,
what's your status? ANG huh? Sorry but you have to go with your ANG
unit, if you weren't in a unit we could take you back. No sir no
exceptions!"

Yep, I can live with that. I volunteer and my wife winds up in the
sandbox and flies combat air-evac (she was a flight nurse).

Juvat

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/7/03 9:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or
>>"luck"
>>they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight,
>>just
>>try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to the
>>ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign it".
>>He
>>will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into
>>battle
>>with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your
>>mouth
>>shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I
>>wanted
>>combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with that.
>
>
>Art, you really need to step out of the 1940's and into the 1960's (at
>least).
>Every guy I know that has missed out on operations has done everything in
>their
>power to get into the fight. Combat operations today is not World War Two,
>1943. Not every B-52 crew was deployed for operations in Iraq, in fact some
>were deployed to keep an eye on North Korea (no combat ensued there so their
>service is not noteworthy or honorable by your standard). Not ever F-16CG
>unit
>was deployed and the list goes on. Its all timing, luck and some skill to get
>deployed for real world ops now a days. If it only took a request, you
>couldn't
>meet a B-52 crewmember today with out combat time.
>
>
>BUFDRVR


Seems to be something wrong when you want to fight and they won't let you Wars
were more fun back then. Besides, I can't get out of the 40's. That was,
without apology, for better or worse, my war.(sigh)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Besides, I can't get out of the 40's.
>

Seek a therapist.

[Ed Rasimus]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Besides, I can't get out of the 40's.
>>
>
>Seek a therapist.
>
Didn't take long to lower the level of discourse.

Are eee esss pee eee cee tee--just a little bit....


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[Kilroy]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in >
> "ArtKramr" <wrote in message

> > Besides, I can't get out of the 40's.

>
> Seek a therapist.
>
>

Better yet- "Get a bloody life!"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Kilroy" > wrote in message
...
>
> Better yet- "Get a bloody life!"
>

Ya got that right. One doesn't need too much time in this forum to conclude
this guy couldn't have accomplished much before or after his brief military
service in WWII.

[Kilroy]

> "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
> > > Didn't take long to lower the level of discourse.
> >
> > Are eee esss pee eee cee tee--just a little bit....

It is a two way street, buddy.
He needs a Valium.

[Yeff]

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:20:30 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote:

> I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
> get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
> happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
> active duty.

I was in the Philippines when Desert Shield started. We'd been under a
severe terrorist threat for a couple of years before that, and when the
Desert Shield deployees started getting Imminent Danger pay the same thing
was quickly approved for us (at the PACOM admirals insistence).

Soon after that there was an urgent call from my command (Electronic
Security Command) for people in my AFSC to volunteer for the deployment.
Many people in my unit (including myself) immediately sought out further
information to see how this could be done. Turns out it couldn't for us.

The Air Force wouldn't allow us to go from one "combat zone" theater to
another (and I believe that's military-wide). Our command wouldn't even
attempt to process volunteer request coming out of the PI.

Oh, and it took less than 24 hours for the command to call for volunteers
before amending the message to say that those of us in the PI wouldn't be
considered.

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Yeff
>Date: 7/7/03 12:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:20:30 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>> I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
>> get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
>> happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
>> active duty.
>
>I was in the Philippines when Desert Shield started. We'd been under a
>severe terrorist threat for a couple of years before that, and when the
>Desert Shield deployees started getting Imminent Danger pay the same thing
>was quickly approved for us (at the PACOM admirals insistence).
>
>Soon after that there was an urgent call from my command (Electronic
>Security Command) for people in my AFSC to volunteer for the deployment.
>Many people in my unit (including myself) immediately sought out further
>information to see how this could be done. Turns out it couldn't for us.
>
>The Air Force wouldn't allow us to go from one "combat zone" theater to
>another (and I believe that's military-wide). Our command wouldn't even
>attempt to process volunteer request coming out of the PI.
>
>Oh, and it took less than 24 hours for the command to call for volunteers
>before amending the message to say that those of us in the PI wouldn't be
>considered.
>
>-Jeff B.
>yeff at erols dot com
>
..

Whatever happened to the old Army Air Corps that I knew and loved? Back then if
you ere l;looking ior a fight, you were damned well sure to get one. And if you
didn't get a fight, then you didn't look hard enough. (sheesh)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 7/7/03 9:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: k.net>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Besides, I can't get out of the 40's.
>>
>
>Seek a therapist.
>

I served in a war. How about you?


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Helomech]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or
"luck"
> >they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight,
just
> >try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to
the
> >ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign
it". He
> >will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into
battle
> >with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your
mouth
> >shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I
wanted
> >combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with
that.
> >
> >Arthur Kramer
> >Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> >http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
> Sorry, Art, but you're talking about a time and process that has been
> long gone. There's lots of procedure to get a transfer and it hasn't
> been approved at the local commander level since WW II.
>
> Even if one could simply get a hand-carried, personal choice
> assignment approved by a local commander to switch to a deploying
> unit, it would take considerable time and money to get the individual
> operationally qualified to perform effectively with the organization.
> Time that a unit doesn't have when they are enroute to battle.
>
> I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
> get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
> happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
> active duty.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038



Sorry Ed, but yeah that kind of thing DOES still happen.
(In the Guard it does, anyway).

When the 24th Med was getting ready to activate and go to Bosnia in 1999, I
volunteered to go. They transferred me the next day.

In the Army Guard it is not unusual at all, to see some people bail out of
units being called up, and many others stepping up and volunteering to go.
Of course transfers go up the chain of command, but they do happen very fast
(hours verses days).

Usually there are more people wanting to go, than there are positions to
fill, or that is my experience over the last ten years.

Helomech

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> I served in a war. How about you?
>

Only if the Cold War counts.

Many people served in the same hot war you did, Art, but few of them feel
the need to denigrate the service of others the way you do.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 7/7/03 10:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Kilroy" > wrote:
>
>>
>>> "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
>>> > > Didn't take long to lower the level of discourse.
>>> >
>>> > Are eee esss pee eee cee tee--just a little bit....
>>
>>It is a two way street, buddy.
>>He needs a Valium.
>>
>Let's start out by acknowledging that WW II was a long time ago and
>fortunately for most of us we haven't again seen a conflict of that
>magnitude. That result may be partly attributable to the sacrifices
>made by that generation. It's difficult to comprehend the involvement
>of all aspects of society and the impact on folks who were involved.
>
>We can be grateful that Art participates in the group, that he shares
>his memories of his experiences and that he freely expresses his
>opinions. I don't agree with everything he says and will confess that
>occasionally I express that disagreement.
>
>But, I do it with an explanation of my position and a respect for his.
>Respect is definitely a two-way street and demonstrating respect isn't
>just for the other guy, it reflects favorably on the respecter.
>
>This ****ing contests regarding whose is bigger don't do much but
>waste bandwidth. And, in short order we have a collection of anonymous
>twits sharing their ignorance. Frankly that doesn't appeal to me.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038
>


Ed,

Thanks for the kind words. I don't mind argument and criticism. I rather enjoy
it. But I draw the line when someone who was never in the military, has no
combat expxerence, no hours on the air tells me what war was :"really like". I
think that sort of behavior creates new highs in the world of hubris.. But we
must never suffer fools gladly. I stay on this NG because of the large amounts
of e mail I get regularly that makes it all worthwhile.
Thanks again.



Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Helomech"
>Date: 7/7/03 3:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>
>> >There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or
>"luck"
>> >they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight,
>just
>> >try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to
>the
>> >ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign
>it". He
>> >will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into
>battle
>> >with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your
>mouth
>> >shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I
>wanted
>> >combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with
>that.
>> >
>> >Arthur Kramer
>> >Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> >http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>> Sorry, Art, but you're talking about a time and process that has been
>> long gone. There's lots of procedure to get a transfer and it hasn't
>> been approved at the local commander level since WW II.
>>
>> Even if one could simply get a hand-carried, personal choice
>> assignment approved by a local commander to switch to a deploying
>> unit, it would take considerable time and money to get the individual
>> operationally qualified to perform effectively with the organization.
>> Time that a unit doesn't have when they are enroute to battle.
>>
>> I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
>> get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
>> happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
>> active duty.
>>
>>
>> Ed Rasimus
>> Fighter Pilot (ret)
>> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
>> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
>> *** from Smithsonian Books
>> ISBN: 1588341038
>
>
>
>Sorry Ed, but yeah that kind of thing DOES still happen.
>(In the Guard it does, anyway).
>
>When the 24th Med was getting ready to activate and go to Bosnia in 1999, I
>volunteered to go. They transferred me the next day.
>
>In the Army Guard it is not unusual at all, to see some people bail out of
>units being called up, and many others stepping up and volunteering to go.
>Of course transfers go up the chain of command, but they do happen very fast
>(hours verses days).
>
>Usually there are more people wanting to go, than there are positions to
>fill, or that is my experience over the last ten years.
>
>Helomech
>
>


That's just the way I remember it. Think maybe they should stick the Air
Force back into the Army so we can have the Army Air Corps again? (grin)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Pete]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>
> Sorry, Art, but you're talking about a time and process that has been
> long gone. There's lots of procedure to get a transfer and it hasn't
> been approved at the local commander level since WW II.
>
> Even if one could simply get a hand-carried, personal choice
> assignment approved by a local commander to switch to a deploying
> unit, it would take considerable time and money to get the individual
> operationally qualified to perform effectively with the organization.
> Time that a unit doesn't have when they are enroute to battle.
>
> I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
> get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
> happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
> active duty.

Ramstein, Aug 1990

2 Aug - Saddam sends his troops over the border.
7 Aug - Several USAF units deploy. Langley, Bitburg, etc.
Several others follow. Soesterberg, Torrejon, Shaw, etc.

Nothing from Ramstein and the 86th.

17 Jan 1991 - shooting starts. Still nothing from Ramstein. Our pilots were
*fuming*. As were all of us.
28 Feb 1991 - shooting stops (more or less)

Every fighter base in Europe sent aircraft, except Ramstein.

6 Apr - Task Force Provide Comfort. Ok...NOW you guys can go.

And, as you say, no way to 'volunteer' for reassignment.

Pete

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Yeff
>Date: 7/7/03 3:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 07 Jul 2003 22:09:18 GMT, ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Whatever happened to the old Army Air Corps that I knew and loved? Back
>then
>> if you ere l;looking ior a fight, you were damned well sure to get one. And
>> if you didn't get a fight, then you didn't look hard enough. (sheesh)
>
>I was also in a critically manned career field. Volunteering to do
>something else (anything else) to go over was also out of the question.
>
>-Jeff B.
>yeff at erols dot com
>

I didn't want to do anything else. Just what I was trained to do.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Phineas Pinkham]

"> "Ed Rasimus" <wrote in message

> > (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >
> Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to
> the
> > >ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign
> it". He
> > >will immediately.

> > I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
> > get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
> > happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
> > active duty.
> >
> >
> > Ed Rasimus

It NEVER happened that way and why doesn't everyone stop pussyfooting
around?
He is past it and resorts to invective if anyone disagrees.

My active duty began in 1942 and lasted for 25 frightening years.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>Date: 7/7/03 4:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"> "Ed Rasimus" <wrote in message
>
>> > (ArtKramr) wrote:
>> >
>> Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to
>> the
>> > >ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign
>> it". He
>> > >will immediately.
>
>> > I sympathize with your point of view that if someone really wants to
>> > get into the battle they can take the initiative, but it doesn't
>> > happen the way you describe and hasn't since 1964 when I entered
>> > active duty.
>> >
>> >
>> > Ed Rasimus
>
>It NEVER happened that way and why doesn't everyone stop pussyfooting
>around?
>He is past it and resorts to invective if anyone disagrees.
>

It happened to my pilot. And just what invective are you talking about?, The
invective seems to be all yours, not mine
..
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

Ed Rasimus > wrote in message >...
> "Kilroy" > wrote:
>
> >
> >> "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
> >> > > Didn't take long to lower the level of discourse.
> >> >
> >> > Are eee esss pee eee cee tee--just a little bit....
> >
> >It is a two way street, buddy.
> >He needs a Valium.
> >
> Let's start out by acknowledging that WW II was a long time ago and
> fortunately for most of us we haven't again seen a conflict of that
> magnitude. That result may be partly attributable to the sacrifices
> made by that generation. It's difficult to comprehend the involvement
> of all aspects of society and the impact on folks who were involved.
>
> We can be grateful that Art participates in the group, that he shares
> his memories of his experiences and that he freely expresses his
> opinions. I don't agree with everything he says and will confess that
> occasionally I express that disagreement.
>
> But, I do it with an explanation of my position and a respect for his.
> Respect is definitely a two-way street and demonstrating respect isn't
> just for the other guy, it reflects favorably on the respecter.
>
> This ****ing contests regarding whose is bigger don't do much but
> waste bandwidth. And, in short order we have a collection of anonymous
> twits sharing their ignorance. Frankly that doesn't appeal to me.

Ed, most of the "anonymous twits" are none too anonymous, and I have
yet to read of where any of Art's recent detractors have expressed
anything but the utmost respect for *all* of those who served during
WWII, or for that matter at any other time. The only disrespect I have
readily observed is that on the part of Art himself, who continues to
denigrate the service of not only the millions of his fellow service
members from WWII who performed their duties, no matter how seemingly
trivial, with honor equal to (or exceeding) his own, but also that of
the countless other allied forces who were fighting long before we
even entered the war, not to mention his numerous attacks on those who
served during other periods. That Art has already taken your more
equitable comments as some kind of personal endorsement on your part
of his comments in these regards is evident from his response to this
same message; I'd hope that was not your intent.

Brooks

>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038

[Billy Beck]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>I draw the line when someone who was never in the military, has no
>combat expxerence, no hours on the air tells me what war was :"really like".

Can I see a citation for that, Art?

Who's doing that?


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[buf3]

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message >...
> >There has been some talk of men who wanted combat but due to "timing" or
> >"luck"
> >they missed out. Well if you are in a unit that won't get into the fight,
> >just
> >try this. Go to your CO and say," Sir, I hear the 344th is moving out to the
> >ETO. I want to go with them. Here is my transfer request. Please sign it".
> >He
> >will immediately. After he signs it walk it through and you will go into
> >battle
> >with the 344th. Or of course you can just keep a low profille , keep your
> >mouth
> >shut, do nothing, then for the rest of your life you can always say " I
> >wanted
> >combat but timing and luck kept me out" and see if you can live with that.
>
>
> Art, you really need to step out of the 1940's and into the 1960's (at least).
> Every guy I know that has missed out on operations has done everything in their
> power to get into the fight. Combat operations today is not World War Two,
> 1943. Not every B-52 crew was deployed for operations in Iraq, in fact some
> were deployed to keep an eye on North Korea (no combat ensued there so their
> service is not noteworthy or honorable by your standard). Not ever F-16CG unit
> was deployed and the list goes on. Its all timing, luck and some skill to get
> deployed for real world ops now a days. If it only took a request, you couldn't
> meet a B-52 crewmember today with out combat time.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

Back in the middle to late 60s there was a document you cold sign and
have enclosed in your personnel records that indicated that you were a
volunteer for a Viet Nam assignment. Several of my B-52 pilot friends
cross trained and made it to Nam in Helicopters, Fighters and as FACs,
etc. Three of them were killed in Helicopters. When I was promoted my
wife wanted to move into field grade housing, but I refused because I
thought I would be re-assigned shortly. Two years later I was still
there. I later found out that each SAC wing could freeze two IPs as
essential personnel not subject to re-assignment. I was frozen and
didn't know it, but later when we started flying ARC LITE missions
everyone got into the fray.

Gene Myers

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: ">Billy Beck <>
>Date: 7/8/03 8:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>I draw the line when someone who was never in the military, has no
>>combat expxerence, no hours on the air tells me what war was :"really
>like".
>
> Can I see a citation for that, Art?
>
> Who's doing that?
>
>
>Billy


If you don't know you haven't been paying attention. And your attempt to have
me name the obvious names is nothing more than a weak attempt on your part to
rekindle the same flame wars again. You have failed again
..
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> If you don't know you haven't been paying attention. And your attempt to
have
> me name the obvious names is nothing more than a weak attempt on your part
to
> rekindle the same flame wars again. You have failed again
>

I have been paying attention. Nobody's been doing that, there are no
obvious names. It's all in your head.

[David Lentz]

BUFDRVR wrote:

<snip>

> Art, you really need to step out of the 1940's and into the 1960's (at least).
> Every guy I know that has missed out on operations has done everything in their
> power to get into the fight. Combat operations today is not World War Two,
> 1943. Not every B-52 crew was deployed for operations in Iraq, in fact some
> were deployed to keep an eye on North Korea (no combat ensued there so their
> service is not noteworthy or honorable by your standard). Not ever F-16CG unit
> was deployed and the list goes on. Its all timing, luck and some skill to get
> deployed for real world ops now a days. If it only took a request, you couldn't
> meet a B-52 crewmember today with out combat time.

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

The important thing is not who served in combat. What is
important the willingness to serve in combat. As long as there
is conflict, we will need people willing to fight.

David

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: David Lentz

>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure. But
some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety of
the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Pete]

> wrote in message
...
> On 8 Jul 2003 10:42:21 -0700, (buf3) wrote:
>
> >Back in the middle to late 60s there was a document you cold sign and
> >have enclosed in your personnel records that indicated that you were a
> >volunteer for a Viet Nam assignment.
>
> For enlisted it was the basic dream sheet in 1966 and 1968 when I
> filled them out. Orders would show volunteer or not.

The dream sheet still exists. At least it did in '97, when I got out. But it
only kicks in when you are eligible for an assignment.

If you're in the states, after the prescribed minimum time on station. Which
may be 2 or 3 years, whatever the current thought processes are.
Overseas, about 6-7 months before your current tour is up. 1, 2, 3, 4 years,
whatever you agreed to when you went over there.

Trying to get a running overseas assignment curtailed takes an act of god.

Out of 8 different bases, only once did I not get one of my 1st 3 choices.

Pete

[Pete]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
think
> that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
of
> the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
> entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
But
> some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
> knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety
of
> the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.

In today's tactics of random S-S missiles, grenades, ambushes of rear
echelon troops, dormitory bombings, suicide bombers in Zodiac boats, erzatz
pregnant women filled with explosives, embassy bombings, RPG's launched from
civilian cars....there is no more "surety of safety" for anyone in the
military.

Pete

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Pete"
>Date: 7/8/03 7:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
>think
>> that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
>of
>> the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>> entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>But
>> some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
>> knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety
>of
>> the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.
>
>In today's tactics of random S-S missiles, grenades, ambushes of rear
>echelon troops, dormitory bombings, suicide bombers in Zodiac boats, erzatz
>pregnant women filled with explosives, embassy bombings, RPG's launched from
>civilian cars....there is no more "surety of safety" for anyone in the
>military.
>
>Pete


But the odds are much better for some than others.And the idea that in the
military all are equal is nonsense.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike18XX]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: David Lentz
>
>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>
>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX
>Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>>
>>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
>>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
>>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>
>
>Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious

I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor Company,
Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after 20
years service.

Lecturer New School for Social Research New York

Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
column View From Kramer

Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
Library of Congress card # 57-10341

President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
Associates, 10 years


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX
>Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>>From: David Lentz
>>
>>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>>
>>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
>>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
>>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>
>
>Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious.
>

There's more. To bring oyu up to date since reitrement I have been a sturdent
at UNLV for the past 7 years. Right now I'll be entering my second year of
Constitutional Law. My area of concentration includes the cases of Chief
Justice Taney (Dredd Scott) also Madison vs Marberry and judicial review and
the Commerce Clause. Oh yes, I am also an exhibiting photographer with fine
art exhibits at The George Eastman House and various unversities. Gotta run
along now I am shooting skeet at NELLIS AFB early in the am and have to hit
the sack.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>And the idea that in the
>military all are equal is nonsense.
>

Depends what you consider "equal". I've got nearly 50 combat sorties, I would
have exactly zero if not for two crew chiefs who pre-flighted and launched me
on those 50 sorties.

Out of those 50 sorties, my jet probably required some kind of speacialist work
prior to the flight on at least 30 of them. That means without the hydraulics,
electrics, GaC, Fuels, Comm Nav guys/gals, I would only have 20 combat sorties.

Furthermore, on every one of my sorties I carried (ok, actually the EW carries)
cryptographic material so that I can communicate with both C2 agencies and
ground units. Without the enlisted folks that download, prepare and maintain
that material, I would have had exactly zero effective combat sorties.

I guess what I'm trying to say Art is that I whole heartedly disagree, the idea
that in the military all are equal (as far as contribution to the mission of
putting bombs on target) is not nonsense, but the essence of the military.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/9/03 4:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>And the idea that in the
>>military all are equal is nonsense.
>>
>
>Depends what you consider "equal". I've got nearly 50 combat sorties, I would
>have exactly zero if not for two crew chiefs who pre-flighted and launched me
>on those 50 sorties.
>
>Out of those 50 sorties, my jet probably required some kind of speacialist
>work
>prior to the flight on at least 30 of them. That means without the
>hydraulics,
>electrics, GaC, Fuels, Comm Nav guys/gals, I would only have 20 combat
>sorties.
>
>Furthermore, on every one of my sorties I carried (ok, actually the EW
>carries)
>cryptographic material so that I can communicate with both C2 agencies and
>ground units. Without the enlisted folks that download, prepare and maintain
>that material, I would have had exactly zero effective combat sorties.
>
>I guess what I'm trying to say Art is that I whole heartedly disagree, the
>idea
>that in the military all are equal (as far as contribution to the mission of
>putting bombs on target) is not nonsense, but the essence of the military.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
those with high essental skills. I never rnentioned mechanics, Nor did I
mention bombsight technicians I compared those with low skills or no skills
easily replaced against those with essential skills I thought I made that
clear. Sorry if I didn't..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Michael]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> Seems to be something wrong when you want to fight and they won't let you.

Do you think we would have won WWII if everyone who wanted to fight,
got to? You can't send everyone who wants to be there, to the front.

> Wars were more fun back then.

More fun huh? That's messed up.

~Michael

[Brian Colwell]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
> >From: Mike18XX
> >Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >
> >>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
> >>>From: David Lentz
> >>
> >>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
> >>
> >>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
think
> >>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the
corporal of
> >>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
> >>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
> >
> >
> >Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious.
> >
>
> There's more. To bring oyu up to date since reitrement I have been a
sturdent
> at UNLV for the past 7 years. Right now I'll be entering my second year of
> Constitutional Law. My area of concentration includes the cases of Chief
> Justice Taney (Dredd Scott) also Madison vs Marberry and judicial review
and
> the Commerce Clause. Oh yes, I am also an exhibiting photographer with
fine
> art exhibits at The George Eastman House and various unversities. Gotta
run
> along now I am shooting skeet at NELLIS AFB early in the am and have to
hit
> the sack.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
Apart from that, what do you do?...:-))

Regards, BMC

[David Lentz]

ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
> >From: David Lentz
>
> >"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>
> I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
> that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
> the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
> entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure. But
> some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
> knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety of
> the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I was thinking more of combat crew members. One BUFF crews get
sent to the UK to fly missions over Iraq. The other gets sent to
Guam to keep the North Koreans at bay. Need we distinguish
between their two levels of service? I say no.

David

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: David Lentz
>Date: 7/9/03 11:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>> >From: David Lentz
>>
>> >"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>>
>> I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
>> that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
>of
>> the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>> entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>But
>> some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
>> knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety
>of
>> the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>I was thinking more of combat crew members. One BUFF crews get
>sent to the UK to fly missions over Iraq. The other gets sent to
>Guam to keep the North Koreans at bay. Need we distinguish
>between their two levels of service? I say no.
>
>David


My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I didn't
eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous posts
by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as anyone.
Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to fly
lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chris Mark]

>From: artkramr

>Oh I forgot. I was the first editor of Sports Cars Ilustrated (now Car and
>Driver) and was involved with Grand Prix racing, I knew Sterling Moss, Juan
>Fangio and Mike Hawthorne before he wrapped himself around a tree. My one
>regret is that I never met Tazio Nuvalari..

By any chance did you know
Robert Daley? He was the European editor of the NY Times and got interested in
GP racing in the 1950s. He was a photog, selling race photos freelance to a
number of publications, and did a number of stories for the Times on GP racing,
illustrating them with his own photos. He wrote two good books on auto racing
in the '50s and '60s that you may remember, "Cars at Speed" and "The Cruel
Sport."


Chris Mark

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: (Chris Mark)
>Date: 7/9/03 1:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: artkramr
>
>>I never kew him but I may have a copy of Cars at Speed buried somewhere in
>>the
>>garage.Is that the exact title?
>
>I'm pretty sure that is the exact title. It came out around 1960 as I
>recall.
>Quite a page turner.
>
>
>Chris Mark
>


I sort of remember it having a yellow cover. I poked around looking for it and
sure enough I saw the yellow cover but it turned out to be Sports Cars in
Action by John R. Bond. I guess I don't have a copy of Sports Cars at Speed
after all. (BTW, whe I first wentot work on Ford, my first assignment was to
wirte Thunderbird advertising. That put me in contact with Lee Iaccocca. He is
a very impressive guy, Very, very smart. Best metal bender ever.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Sunny]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I
didn't
> eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
> specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous
posts
> by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as
anyone.
> Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to
fly
> lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Or indeed, lets get the pilot to serve in the mess during non flying
weather.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Sunny"
>Date: 7/9/03 3:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
><snip>
>> My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I
>didn't
>> eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
>> specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous
>posts
>> by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as
>anyone.
>> Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to
>fly
>> lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..
>
>Or indeed, lets get the pilot to serve in the mess during non flying
>weather.


As a bombardier I applaud your suggestion.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX
>Date: 7/9/03 11:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>>From: Mike18XX
>>>Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>>>>
>>>>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
>think
>>>>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
>of
>>>>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>>>>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious
>>
>>I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.
>>
>>Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
>>York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor
>Company,
>>Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after
>20
>>years service.
>>
>>Lecturer New School for Social Research New York
>>
>>Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
>>column View From Kramer
>>
>>Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
>>Library of Congress card # 57-10341
>>
>>President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
>>Associates, 10 years
>
>
> So how is it, that with all this individualist aspiration to
>greatness, you succumb to the illusion that "service" is a higher
>virtue, and waste your end days chiding the merits of men unlucky (!)
>enough to find themselves in the pointy end of a big war?
>
> "Service" is a *collectivist* ideal, Art.
>
>--
>
>Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
>
>"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
> -- Ambrose Bierce
>
>
>
>
>
>


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX
>Date: 7/9/03 11:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>>From: Mike18XX
>>>Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>>>>
>>>>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
>think
>>>>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
>of
>>>>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>>>>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious
>>
>>I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.
>>
>>Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
>>York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor
>Company,
>>Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after
>20
>>years service.
>>
>>Lecturer New School for Social Research New York
>>
>>Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
>>column View From Kramer
>>
>>Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
>>Library of Congress card # 57-10341
>>
>>President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
>>Associates, 10 years
>
>
> So how is it, that with all this individualist aspiration to
>greatness, you succumb to the illusion that "service" is a higher
>virtue, and waste your end days chiding the merits of men unlucky (!)
>enough to find themselves in the pointy end of a big war?


Tell me about the pointy end of a big war. I always wondered what that would be
like.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike18XX]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: Mike18XX
>>Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>
>>>>"They also serve, who only stand and wait."
>>>
>>>I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
>>>that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
>>>the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
>>>entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
>>
>>
>>Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious
>
>I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.
>
>Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
>York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor Company,
>Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after 20
>years service.
>
>Lecturer New School for Social Research New York
>
>Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
>column View From Kramer
>
>Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
>Library of Congress card # 57-10341
>
>President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
>Associates, 10 years


So how is it, that with all this individualist aspiration to
greatness, you succumb to the illusion that "service" is a higher
virtue, and waste your end days chiding the merits of men unlucky (!)
enough to find themselves in the pointy end of a big war?

"Service" is a *collectivist* ideal, Art.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[Mike18XX]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
>those with high essental skills. I never rnentioned mechanics, Nor did I
>mention bombsight technicians I compared those with low skills or no skills
>easily replaced against those with essential skills


Compared to, say, those involved in the actual design and manufactureof
the airplanes you flew (or any other piece of equipment you ever
touched), bombardier is an relatively unskilled occupation.

IOW, your chest is puffed up in excess of pride warranted.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
>those with high essental skills.

Where do weapon designers fit?

They don't get shot at (unless the enemy targets them or their place of
work), but they do provide the tools for pilots to use in turning
important targets into smoking craters.

No weapons - and no support to those you have, when they find problems
in combat - and the bombers might as well drop spitballs.

But then back when I was learning to be a soldier, the armourer who gave
me my rifle, magazines and ammunition was a Very Important Guy. He
wouldn't get shot at, while we would... but we depended on his skill to
ensure that our weapons would fire when we needed them.

'High essential skill' ends up meaning 'the mission is hosed if that
person fails', and that's a wide net.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I didn't
>eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
>specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous posts
>by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as anyone.
>Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to fly
>lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Say rather, run an airbase with no messhall orderlies.

Fighting men need food and mail... how easily could you have done
without messhall orderlies and where would you have replaced them from?
How easily could aircrew have fed themselves and maintained their own
aircraft, and what would have happened to the sortie rate if the only
men on base were those who flew?


On one exercise, we were lucky enough to get a Catering Corps NCO
attached to our unit. We ate better in that week than any other time. We
wasted less time cooking and washing up than any other exercise (because
said NCO organised matters superbly). We freed up a lot of time for
proper military training, where we would otherwise have been cooking
one-man ration packs for ourselves.

Was that NCO a combat hero? No. Did he contribute to combat efficiency?
Hell, yes! Was he replaceable? No, except by someone who knew as much as
him about cooking quickly and superbly for groups (which none of us
could).

'The lowest' may not contribute 'as much'... but they still contribute,
and without them operations fail or slow to a crawl. If they weren't
needed, why are they there? If they _are_ needed, why denigrate them?



--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>Date: 7/10/03 1:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>The lowest' may not contribute 'as much'... but they still contribute,
>and without them operations fail or slow to a crawl. If they weren't
>needed, why are they there? If they _are_ needed, why denigrate them?

I never denigrated them. That was your word. But I also refuse to raise them
to the level and importance of an in your face combat soldier with life and
death as a daily experience. Would you?If you would then it is you who are
denigrating the combat soldier. Try telling the veteran of the101st Airborne
who went through D-Day to the Bulge to the Elbe that he is better than a cook
who spent the war in Paris cooking and every night in Place Pigalle..In fact
that cook is a piece of crap compared to any one of my gunners. Don't tell me
they are equal.







Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Sunny]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
<snip>
> I never denigrated them. That was your word. But I also refuse to raise
them
> to the level and importance of an in your face combat soldier with life
and
> death as a daily experience.
<snip>
In fact that cook is a "piece of crap" compared to any one of my gunners.
Don't tell me they are equal.

Arthur, your statements above (in the same paragraph) seem to contradict
each other?

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>>Where do weapon designers fit?
>>
>>They don't get shot at (unless the enemy targets them or their place of
>>work), but they do provide the tools for pilots to use in turning
>>important targets into smoking craters.
>>
>>No weapons - and no support to those you have, when they find problems
>>in combat - and the bombers might as well drop spitballs.
>>
>>But then back when I was learning to be a soldier, the armourer who gave
>>me my rifle, magazines and ammunition was a Very Important Guy. He
>>wouldn't get shot at, while we would... but we depended on his skill to
>>ensure that our weapons would fire when we needed them.
>>
>>'High essential skill' ends up meaning 'the mission is hosed if that
>>person fails', and that's a wide net.
>>
>
>
>Let us never forget the guy, a true hero, who makes shoe laces. If a shoelace
>breaks you are hosed. Let's have a shoelace memorial.And a new medal. The DSC
>The Distinguished Shoelace Cross. Let's hear it for shoelaces men.
>And anyone who disagrees is a traitor !

Okay - now _you_ go into battle with no bootlaces.

Is the guy who makes sure you have serviceable laces (and a spare pair
too, depending on your CO) a frontline war hero? No. But try fighting
the war without him.

He could stay home, get a civilian job and strike for
double-time-for-overtime, he could play the black market... instead, he
volunteers to serve, and gets told that he's needed to keep the
combatants in bootlaces. Should he say "it's the frontline or nothing"?

_Somebody_ has to make the damn laces. He doesn't deserve a medal unless
he does something dramatic, but he _does_ deserve quiet thanks from all
those fighting men who were able to tie their boots securely to their
feet. (Trying to run in unlaced boots is no fun at all. Try it and find
out.)


How many missions get launched when nobody can find a usable bootlace?

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>>Date: 7/10/03 1:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id:
>
>>The lowest' may not contribute 'as much'... but they still contribute,
>>and without them operations fail or slow to a crawl. If they weren't
>>needed, why are they there? If they _are_ needed, why denigrate them?
>
>I never denigrated them. That was your word.

No, yours.

>But I also refuse to raise them
>to the level and importance of an in your face combat soldier with life and
>death as a daily experience.

War doesn't respect boundaries, Art, and anyone who believes "rear areas
are safe" is asking for trouble. Entire branches of service seem to have
leapt up around the notion of wreaking havoc on "safe" sectors.

>Would you?If you would then it is you who are
>denigrating the combat soldier. Try telling the veteran of the101st Airborne
>who went through D-Day to the Bulge to the Elbe that he is better than a cook
>who spent the war in Paris cooking and every night in Place Pigalle.

When did you serve in the 101st, Art?

A cook in a cushy billet, fine. How about a mechanic in a battlefield
recovery squadron? He doesn't _fight_ the enemy... he just rescues
knocked-out tanks and fixes them ASAP so they can get back into battle.
Trouble is, the enemy think that recovery troops are _excellent_
targets...

>.In fact
>that cook is a piece of crap compared to any one of my gunners. Don't tell me
>they are equal.

How well did your gunners shoot without ammunition, Art? And who loaded
the belts and services the guns?

For that matter, how well do your gunners shoot when they haven't eaten
for a day or two? Seems someone needs to keep the crews fed, and a lack
of food might hurt effectiveness. Where did that food come from? Did you
call your cooks cowards to their faces for serving food instead of
flying missions? Or were you just glad to get fed?


Sure, there are REMFs in every war. But there are a hell of a lot of
servicemen who only ever get noticed if they _don't_ do their jobs, and
being able to fight a war depends on those guys doing their jobs well.
If they succeed, nobody notices.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>Date: 7/10/03 4:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>War doesn't respect boundaries, Art, and anyone who believes "rear areas
>are safe" is asking for trouble. Entire branches of service seem to have
>leapt up around the notion of wreaking havoc on "safe" sectors.

I have been in the rear and I have been at the tip of the spear. And the rear
is safer.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
> >Date: 7/10/03 4:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id:
>
> >War doesn't respect boundaries, Art, and anyone who believes "rear areas
> >are safe" is asking for trouble. Entire branches of service seem to have
> >leapt up around the notion of wreaking havoc on "safe" sectors.
>
> I have been in the rear and I have been at the tip of the spear. And the rear
> is safer.

A lot of families in PA would disagree with you, having suffered the
loss of their loved ones back in that "safer" rear area during ODS.
But hey, they were "merely" water purification pukes, right? And you
never needed any clean drinking water in the theater of operations,
now did you?

Brooks

>
> Arthur Kramer

[Grantland]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: Mike18XX
>
>>Art? Bombardiers were every bit as replaceable as cooks, chaplains,
>>truckers, and office orderlies who licked stamps all day, so quite
>>pretending you weren't. Peer
>
>You seem to have no idea of what the air war was all about Allow me to
>clarify it all for you. Do you know why we built B-17's, B-24's, B--26's,
>B-25's and A-20's? Do you know why we trained pilots navigators and gunners?
>Do you know why we built bombs and Norden bombsights? We did all that for just
>one reason and one reason alone. It was to put a bombardier over a target for
>at least 30 seconds, hopefully more. The pilots were there to drive him there,
>the gunners were to protect him, the fighters were to escort him, But
>delivering the bombardier to the target was what the air war was about in
>bombers. BTW, the washout rate in my bombardier class at Big Spring was 90 % I
>doubt if you could have qualified. You probably never had enough spherical
>trig. That is if you could pass the physical and mental tests to begin with
>which relatively few could.. No, you were better off as a mess orderly.
>
Yeah and now thank God the GPS-chip does it all. And all those dweeby
egoflated maths professors and Actuaries can **** OFF and SHUT THE
**** UP!!
lol
Byte me, Kramer.

Grantland

>Arthur Kramer
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Mike18XX]

In article >,
"Paul J. Adam" > wrote:

>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
>>those with high essental skills.
>
>Where do weapon designers fit?


No kidding.

Art? Bombardiers were every bit as replaceable as cooks, chaplains,
truckers, and office orderlies who licked stamps all day, so quite
pretending you weren't. Peering through a Norton is a videogame skill I
have no doubt that twenty million contemporary teenagers could qualify
for with minimal training, if that. *Dive*-bombing accurately? Now
*that* took some "high essential skill".

But the guys who made the blueprints? Lose one of them, and you have no
plane to fly, no Norton to peer into, and no bombs to drop.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX
>Date: 7/11/03 10:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Let us never forget the guy, a true hero, who makes shoe laces. If a
>shoelace
>>breaks you are hosed. Let's have a shoelace memorial.And a new medal. The
>DSC
>>The Distinguished Shoelace Cross. Let's hear it for shoelaces men.
>
>
>You're being sarcastic, of course, but there are some of us who feel
>that way about ALL medals:
>
>"No truly worthy man is comfortable accepting an award, let alone
>bragging about it. Who, other than he himself, would he view as fit to
>judge his abilities, in order to bestow the seal of approval? Awards are
>invariably given away by second-handers, as is candy to babies."
>
>--

Oh I don't know. I think an Air Medal for every 5 mission over Germany is kinda
well deserved. But I guess you wouldn't have any way of knowing about that.
This is especially true for those who never came back.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX

>Art? Bombardiers were every bit as replaceable as cooks, chaplains,
>truckers, and office orderlies who licked stamps all day, so quite
>pretending you weren't. Peer

You seem to have no idea of what the air war was all about Allow me to
clarify it all for you. Do you know why we built B-17's, B-24's, B--26's,
B-25's and A-20's? Do you know why we trained pilots navigators and gunners?
Do you know why we built bombs and Norden bombsights? We did all that for just
one reason and one reason alone. It was to put a bombardier over a target for
at least 30 seconds, hopefully more. The pilots were there to drive him there,
the gunners were to protect him, the fighters were to escort him, But
delivering the bombardier to the target was what the air war was about in
bombers. BTW, the washout rate in my bombardier class at Big Spring was 90 % I
doubt if you could have qualified. You probably never had enough spherical
trig. That is if you could pass the physical and mental tests to begin with
which relatively few could.. No, you were better off as a mess orderly.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: Mike18XX
>
>>Art? Bombardiers were every bit as replaceable as cooks, chaplains,
>>truckers, and office orderlies who licked stamps all day, so quite
>>pretending you weren't. Peer
>
>You seem to have no idea of what the air war was all about Allow me to
>clarify it all for you. Do you know why we built B-17's, B-24's, B--26's,
>B-25's and A-20's?

To drop bombs on important enemy targets.

Someone had to design those planes. Then they had to be produced in
useful numbers. Then they needed to be fed with bombs, fuel, spare parts
and crew.

>Do you know why we trained pilots navigators and gunners?

To drop bombs on the enemy.

Someone had to make the bombs.

>Do you know why we built bombs and Norden bombsights? We did all that for just
>one reason and one reason alone. It was to put a bombardier over a target for
>at least 30 seconds, hopefully more. The pilots were there to drive him there,
>the gunners were to protect him, the fighters were to escort him, But
>delivering the bombardier to the target was what the air war was about in
>bombers.

And that bombardier stood on many shoulders, and depended on a lot of
people, to put ordance on target.

>BTW, the washout rate in my bombardier class at Big Spring was 90 % I
>doubt if you could have qualified. You probably never had enough spherical
>trig.

I'd have passed the mathematics, but they'd have failed me for poor
eyesight. What does a short-sighted weapons engineer do in 1944?

>That is if you could pass the physical and mental tests to begin with
>which relatively few could.. No, you were better off as a mess orderly.

Careful, Art. It seems that you're saying that only a chosen few with
perfect sight, excellent maths and freedom from motion sickness were
actually useful in 1944.

I fit two of three... trouble is, I'm massively myopic. (With modern
contacts I hide it superbly, but in 1944 I wear glasses or I'm blind as
a bat).

The British Army accepted me as a soldier (I was fit to fight, and
problems with my short sight were mostly mine to deal with), but it
seems the USAAF would have rejected me.

Where do I stand for volunteering and being rejected?


--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

[Mike18XX]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>>From: Mike18XX
>
>>Art? Bombardiers were every bit as replaceable as cooks, chaplains,
>>truckers, and office orderlies who licked stamps all day, so quite
>>pretending you weren't. Peer
>
>You seem to have no idea of what the air war was all about Allow me to
>clarify it all for you. Do you know why we built B-17's, B-24's, B--26's,
>B-25's and A-20's? Do you know why we trained pilots navigators and gunners?
>Do you know why we built bombs and Norden bombsights? We did all that for just
>one reason and one reason alone. It was to put a bombardier over a target for
>at least 30 seconds, hopefully more. The pilots were there to drive him there,
>the gunners were to protect him, the fighters were to escort him, But
>delivering the bombardier to the target was what the air war was about in
>bombers. BTW, the washout rate in my bombardier class at Big Spring was 90 % I
>doubt if you could have qualified. You probably never had enough spherical
>trig. That is if you could pass the physical and mental tests to begin with
>which relatively few could.. No, you were better off as a mess orderly.


So what you're saying is that, after other guys built the airplane and
built the bombs and built the bombsite and made all the navigation
charts and, and, and.... ....you squinted into a contraption and did a
simple task that someone else had devised and had instructed hundreds of
other pimply-faced kids how to do.

And then you came home and bored the hell out of people for sixty
straight years while the whole country went straight downhill from the
days when a freebird could go outside and do whatever he wanted on and
with his own property so long as he harmed no one else.

No, Art; the "one reason and one reason alone" wasn't to hand Hitler his
balls, it was to *advance liberty* -- something we enjoy a lot less of
today, *here*, than the moment your plane took off, a fact to which you
are completely oblivious.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: If you are looking for a fight...
>From: Mike18XX
>Date: 7/11/03 4:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>
>>>You're being sarcastic, of course, but there are some of us who feel
>>>that way about ALL medals:
>>>
>>>"No truly worthy man is comfortable accepting an award, let alone
>>>bragging about it. Who, other than he himself, would he view as fit to
>>>judge his abilities, in order to bestow the seal of approval? Awards are
>>>invariably given away by second-handers, as is candy to babies."
>>>
>>Oh I don't know. I think an Air Medal for every 5 mission over Germany is
>kinda
>>well deserved.
>
>
>Why not 4? Why not 1? Arbitrary.
>
>
>>But I guess you wouldn't have any way of knowing about that.
>
>
>But I do, Art. There are more ways to stare Death in the face than you
>seem to be aware of, and your way isn't any more frightening than mine.
>
>
>>This is especially true for those who never came back.
>
>
>So spend your own money minting buckets of the things, and pour 'em on
>the cemetaries of Europe. I mean, if you believe in restless spirits and
>that sort of thing.
>
>--
>
>Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
>
>"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
> -- Ambrose Bierce
>


You sound as though you don't have any and are bitter about it and resent those
who do.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike18XX]

(ArtKramr) wrote:


>>You're being sarcastic, of course, but there are some of us who feel
>>that way about ALL medals:
>>
>>"No truly worthy man is comfortable accepting an award, let alone
>>bragging about it. Who, other than he himself, would he view as fit to
>>judge his abilities, in order to bestow the seal of approval? Awards are
>>invariably given away by second-handers, as is candy to babies."
>>
>Oh I don't know. I think an Air Medal for every 5 mission over Germany is kinda
>well deserved.


Why not 4? Why not 1? Arbitrary.


>But I guess you wouldn't have any way of knowing about that.


But I do, Art. There are more ways to stare Death in the face than you
seem to be aware of, and your way isn't any more frightening than mine.


>This is especially true for those who never came back.


So spend your own money minting buckets of the things, and pour 'em on
the cemetaries of Europe. I mean, if you believe in restless spirits and
that sort of thing.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> You seem to have no idea of what the air war was all about Allow me to
> clarify it all for you. Do you know why we built B-17's, B-24's, B--26's,
> B-25's and A-20's? Do you know why we trained pilots navigators and
> gunners? Do you know why we built bombs and Norden bombsights?
> We did all that for just one reason and one reason alone. It was to put a
> bombardier over a target for at least 30 seconds, hopefully more.
>

Wrong, the reason was to put bombs on target.


>
> The pilots were there to drive him there,
> the gunners were to protect him, the fighters were to escort him, But
> delivering the bombardier to the target was what the air war was about in
> bombers. BTW, the washout rate in my bombardier class at Big Spring was
> 90 % I doubt if you could have qualified. You probably never had enough
> spherical trig. That is if you could pass the physical and mental tests
to begin
> with which relatively few could.. No, you were better off as a mess
orderly.
>

If 90% of your class washed out it only means you had an exceptionally weak
class. The fact that you made it through the program shows it didn't
require high intelligence.