Re: 150's and 172's about the only planes flying!!

[Mike Isaksen]

"nrp" > wrote...
>
> Itinerant traffic at KSSQ has gone to about zero, even with the
> excellent VFR WX this spring.

There's a perfect storm working against us prop pounding GA guys:
1. The age of the average flyer/owner is transitioning from the peak earning
years into the fixed income period. A scary phase to own a 30+ year old
money hole.
2. Avgas costs are up at around $4/gal, that's almost a 100% increase in 10
years. Makes forward looking projections very difficult.
3. Administrative, operational and insurance hurdles have risen to a point
where they seem to dominate every hanger/coffee discussion. This involves
everything from changing the 4ft high airport fence to one 8ft barb wire
topped with coded security gates. Airport authorites increasing insurance
minimums for aircraft in hanger and tiedowns. And limiting access rules for
personal cars and family tours.

I may see more of this as I'm in a suburban enviornment, but this is where
the people (read that as future pilots) are, and I see nothing inviting them
in.

AOPA has finally ramped up the Project Pilot program to focus on getting new
blood into our ranks, but their goals need to be much bigger. I'm talking
100,000 new pilots in the next ten years big. I really want to say 100k in
five years should be our growth goal, but 100k in ten years will at least
keep us alive.

One of the real bright spots the last two years has been the Sport
Plane/Pilot arena. Two years ago at SNF I saw ULs with bicycle parts, but
now I'm trying on real airplanes and some of them I can actually fit into.
They have reduced the kite/glider feel (increased wing loading??), and are
starting to demo them at less than WOT settings. My last ride the guy even
pulled out a homemade power table, and at 65% that plane felt pretty smooth.
All at 4 to 5 gallons/hr for the same speed as a c172/pa28 (minus the two
extra seats and baggage).

I hope the LSA/SP bring in a new breed of hobby flyers who can stay in for
the long haul. This is not intended to put down the Airline Capt wannabees,
but I do not think that "new student pilot model" has served Rec GA well.
The guys who go career aviation don't tend to do much small GA flying, and
I've seen too many bitter outcomes from the student to private to CFI (time
building) pyramid scheme.

Just my thoughts,... YMMV.

[Margy Natalie]

Another BIG problem with GA is we aren't getting enough kids involved.
The Young Eagles program is great, but it's not enough. Kids can't hang
over the airport fence anymore, model airplanes have just about died, RC
is expensive for a 12 year old. It used to be kids wanted to grow up
and learn how to fly and airplane, now they want to grow up to be a game
programmer. That's a problem! If you look at the kid's birthday party
supply places there are NO airplane things, and you can't buy an
airplane shaped balloon. That says a lot.

WARNING SHAMELESS PLUG FOLLOWS

So if you want to bring the kids out go to

http://www.nasm.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=602

It will be a great day for the kids! Kids = ages 1-101

Before you ask, all the fly-in spots have been filled for this event and
there is already a waiting list.

Margy

Mike Isaksen wrote:
> "nrp" > wrote...
>
>>Itinerant traffic at KSSQ has gone to about zero, even with the
>>excellent VFR WX this spring.
>
>
> There's a perfect storm working against us prop pounding GA guys:
> 1. The age of the average flyer/owner is transitioning from the peak earning
> years into the fixed income period. A scary phase to own a 30+ year old
> money hole.
> 2. Avgas costs are up at around $4/gal, that's almost a 100% increase in 10
> years. Makes forward looking projections very difficult.
> 3. Administrative, operational and insurance hurdles have risen to a point
> where they seem to dominate every hanger/coffee discussion. This involves
> everything from changing the 4ft high airport fence to one 8ft barb wire
> topped with coded security gates. Airport authorites increasing insurance
> minimums for aircraft in hanger and tiedowns. And limiting access rules for
> personal cars and family tours.
>
> I may see more of this as I'm in a suburban enviornment, but this is where
> the people (read that as future pilots) are, and I see nothing inviting them
> in.
>
> AOPA has finally ramped up the Project Pilot program to focus on getting new
> blood into our ranks, but their goals need to be much bigger. I'm talking
> 100,000 new pilots in the next ten years big. I really want to say 100k in
> five years should be our growth goal, but 100k in ten years will at least
> keep us alive.
>
> One of the real bright spots the last two years has been the Sport
> Plane/Pilot arena. Two years ago at SNF I saw ULs with bicycle parts, but
> now I'm trying on real airplanes and some of them I can actually fit into.
> They have reduced the kite/glider feel (increased wing loading??), and are
> starting to demo them at less than WOT settings. My last ride the guy even
> pulled out a homemade power table, and at 65% that plane felt pretty smooth.
> All at 4 to 5 gallons/hr for the same speed as a c172/pa28 (minus the two
> extra seats and baggage).
>
> I hope the LSA/SP bring in a new breed of hobby flyers who can stay in for
> the long haul. This is not intended to put down the Airline Capt wannabees,
> but I do not think that "new student pilot model" has served Rec GA well.
> The guys who go career aviation don't tend to do much small GA flying, and
> I've seen too many bitter outcomes from the student to private to CFI (time
> building) pyramid scheme.
>
> Just my thoughts,... YMMV.
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Another BIG problem with GA is we aren't getting enough kids involved.
> The Young Eagles program is great, but it's not enough. Kids can't hang
> over the airport fence anymore, model airplanes have just about died, RC
> is expensive for a 12 year old. It used to be kids wanted to grow up
> and learn how to fly and airplane, now they want to grow up to be a game
> programmer. That's a problem! If you look at the kid's birthday party
> supply places there are NO airplane things, and you can't buy an
> airplane shaped balloon. That says a lot.

I ran into this problem a few years ago, while looking for gifts for
my young nephews and nieces. OF COURSE Uncle Jay *had* to give
airplane toys -- yet I had to look long and hard to find them.
Imagine, and entire toy store with just one or two airplanes! It was
depressing.

As for R/C being expensive, I'm happy to report that the trend has
gone quite dramatically the other way in recent years. When I first
got into R/C flight, back in the 1980s, you needed at least $300 to
get started -- AND you had to build your own plane. Now, with the
advent of advanced battery-powered airplanes, you can get into a pre-
built plane for far less -- often under $100. Our local R/C club is
BOOMING.

But you're right about computers. They have sapped the life out of
our kids, by allowing them to experience the world without ever
leaving their chairs. I suppose you might look at this as a good
thing, from an evolutionary standpoint, but I find it terribly sad.

The next ten years will decide the fate of GA. You and Ron do what
you can, and Mary and I will continue to be the "Pied Pipers" of GA in
Iowa. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do. Getting pilots to
do anything -- even if it's to save their own fate -- is like herding
cats...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter R.]

On 5/3/2007 10:03:56 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:

> Before you ask, all the fly-in spots have been filled for this event and
> there is already a waiting list.

Margy, I am certainly do not mean to attack the messenger here, but does
anyone besides me find this ironic?


--
Peter

[Margy Natalie]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 5/3/2007 10:03:56 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:
>
>
>>Before you ask, all the fly-in spots have been filled for this event and
>>there is already a waiting list.
>
>
> Margy, I am certainly do not mean to attack the messenger here, but does
> anyone besides me find this ironic?
>
>
Why ironic? We can only bring in 50 airplanes and our communications
guy put a sign up sheet at OSH last year. I can tell you the average
age of the pilots is NOT 25. Anyone within fair striking distance
should tell their friends and neighbors! Of course friends and
neighbors of pilots get to do things like sit in airplanes, but I can
tell you there are LOTS of people who have NEVER had the opportunity to
get anywhere near anything other than an airliner. If each one of us
(Pilots) inspired one kid a year for the next 10 years to go out when he
or she was 25 and get a ticket, we would have done really well. And if
we each got 2 kids, imagine, 2 kids a year, well we might have a movement...

Margy

[Peter R.]

On 5/3/2007 11:28:36 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:

> Why ironic? We can only bring in 50 airplanes and our communications
> guy put a sign up sheet at OSH last year.

Hmm, upon rereading maybe I don't understand the definition of "fly-in
spots." Does this mean that if I wanted to fly to the event that I could not
do so or does this mean something else?

I had interpreted "fly-in spots" to mean number of airplanes allowed to fly
to the airport for the event and if so, it seemed unfortunate that such a
wonderful event would be limited by that. Driving to the event would be out
of the question for me.

--
Peter

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> The next ten years will decide the fate of GA. You and Ron do what
> you can, and Mary and I will continue to be the "Pied Pipers" of GA in
> Iowa. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do. Getting pilots to
> do anything -- even if it's to save their own fate -- is like herding
> cats...

One BIG thing that pilots need to do, is to invite people along with them,
when they go flying.

I don't have a "certificate" YET, and I always tell everyone I know that is
a pilot, that I would JUMP at the chance to go flying with them, especially
when they are going out by themselves.

I don't get near the invitations that I would like. So, if everyone would
be more open to invite a prospective pilot along, DO IT !!! It might be
what someone needs to get off of the fence, and go for it.
--
Jim in NC

[LWG]

I think you missed one of the biggest components of the perfect storm. The
act that helped resurrect GA limits the liability of manufacturers depending
upon the age of the aircraft. So enterprising plaintiff lawyers will have
to find someone else to sue besides manufacturers. That means mechanics,
since someone with deep pockets has to be responsible for all GA accidents.
So many shops will not work on older aircraft, since if something happens,
they will be the only defendants in the suit, and their carrier will be the
only one on the risk. So not only are the airframes aging, the mechanics
are aging, and the mechanics and shops have a strong financial disincentive
to work on older aircraft. Plus, everything else you said...

"Mike Isaksen" > wrote in message
news:Lmg_h.8534$f17.4923@trndny05...
>
> "nrp" > wrote...
>>
>> Itinerant traffic at KSSQ has gone to about zero, even with the
>> excellent VFR WX this spring.
>
> There's a perfect storm working against us prop pounding GA guys:
> 1. The age of the average flyer/owner is transitioning from the peak
> earning years into the fixed income period. A scary phase to own a 30+
> year old money hole.
> 2. Avgas costs are up at around $4/gal, that's almost a 100% increase in
> 10 years. Makes forward looking projections very difficult.
> 3. Administrative, operational and insurance hurdles have risen to a point
> where they seem to dominate every hanger/coffee discussion. This involves
> everything from changing the 4ft high airport fence to one 8ft barb wire
> topped with coded security gates. Airport authorites increasing insurance
> minimums for aircraft in hanger and tiedowns. And limiting access rules
> for personal cars and family tours.
>

[Margy Natalie]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 5/3/2007 11:28:36 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:
>
>
>>Why ironic? We can only bring in 50 airplanes and our communications
>>guy put a sign up sheet at OSH last year.
>
>
> Hmm, upon rereading maybe I don't understand the definition of "fly-in
> spots." Does this mean that if I wanted to fly to the event that I could not
> do so or does this mean something else?
>
> I had interpreted "fly-in spots" to mean number of airplanes allowed to fly
> to the airport for the event and if so, it seemed unfortunate that such a
> wonderful event would be limited by that. Driving to the event would be out
> of the question for me.
>
Yeah, it's a "by invitation" fly-in as we can't handle too many
aircraft. Jay Honeck flew in the year before last. There's always next
year to fly in. I know some aircraft are parking at the FBO and then
getting ground transport down.

Margy

[Margy Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
>
>>The next ten years will decide the fate of GA. You and Ron do what
>>you can, and Mary and I will continue to be the "Pied Pipers" of GA in
>>Iowa. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do. Getting pilots to
>>do anything -- even if it's to save their own fate -- is like herding
>>cats...
>
>
> One BIG thing that pilots need to do, is to invite people along with them,
> when they go flying.
>
> I don't have a "certificate" YET, and I always tell everyone I know that is
> a pilot, that I would JUMP at the chance to go flying with them, especially
> when they are going out by themselves.
>
> I don't get near the invitations that I would like. So, if everyone would
> be more open to invite a prospective pilot along, DO IT !!! It might be
> what someone needs to get off of the fence, and go for it.
Sadly, I know lots of pilots who won't invite folks to go flying for the
fear of liability issues.

Margy

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Margy Natalie" < wrote

> Sadly, I know lots of pilots who won't invite folks to go flying for the
> fear of liability issues.

Yes, I know that does happen, and I agree, that is sad. Very sad.

Myself, I will not allow my life to be ruled by geeks, bean counters, and
lawyers at insurance companies.

In my case, these are relatively close friends, so I don't think that is the
cause.
--
Jim in NC

[Jose]

> I know some aircraft are parking at the FBO and then getting ground transport down.

How is this different? You fly into the airport, you park, you go to
the event. Do you have special parking, which is full?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> > I know some aircraft are parking at the FBO and then getting ground transport down.
>
> How is this different? You fly into the airport, you park, you go to
> the event. Do you have special parking, which is full?

I think Margy is talking about appearing IN the event, not just
attending as a visitor.

Also, parking at the Dulles FBO and going to Udvar-Hazy is almost like
landing at Neil Armstrong Airport and going to the Air Force Museum.
The two are not all that close together.

In fact, it took us longer to taxi to the museum (when we appeared at
the first "Be a Pilot" day) than it did to FLY to Dulles from
Fredericksburg! The place is huge.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> I think Margy is talking about appearing IN the event, not just
> attending as a visitor.

Ok, that makes much more sense.

> In fact, it took us longer to taxi to the museum (when we appeared at
> the first "Be a Pilot" day) than it did to FLY to Dulles from
> Fredericksburg!

Dulles is no joke. I spent an hour taxiing there once. They were
changing runways, and I was unlucky.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Margy Natalie]

Jose wrote:
>> I know some aircraft are parking at the FBO and then getting ground
>> transport down.
>
>
> How is this different? You fly into the airport, you park, you go to
> the event. Do you have special parking, which is full?
>
> Jose
Yeah, I sucker, I mean I get about 50 pilots to volunteer to work the
day. They stand next to their airplane all day while visitor come up
and ask questions and stare at their planes. We put all the visitors
through a ramp briefing before they go out onto the ramp. Depending on
the pilot (and plane) it's a great opportunity for kids to sit in a REAL
airplane. For the visiting pilot it really is a full day's work. The
museum ramp is about 4 miles away from the FBOs and only open a few days
a year to aircraft. There are two VERY LARGE gates between the museum
and the airport and opening them requires quite a bit of coordination
between a number of lettered agencies.

Margy

[Margy Natalie]

Jose wrote:
>> I think Margy is talking about appearing IN the event, not just
>> attending as a visitor.
>
>
> Ok, that makes much more sense.
>
>> In fact, it took us longer to taxi to the museum (when we appeared at
>> the first "Be a Pilot" day) than it did to FLY to Dulles from
>> Fredericksburg!
>
>
> Dulles is no joke. I spent an hour taxiing there once. They were
> changing runways, and I was unlucky.
>
> Jose
Well, Landmark provides overnight parking for participants who want to
come in early and the taxi from there is at least 5 miles. They are on
the NW corner of the airport and we are about a mile and half south of
the runways and halfway between, but our gate access is on the SE corner
of the airport. So it's a long way, but a very nice taxi for at least a
mile through the woods after you exit the first gate from the main
airport.

Margy

[Peter R.]

On 5/4/2007 9:20:00 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:

> Yeah, I sucker, I mean I get about 50 pilots to volunteer to work the
> day. They stand next to their airplane all day while visitor come up
> and ask questions and stare at their planes.

Ahh, I am sorry. I mistook your "fly-in spots" to mean any fly-in visitor to
the event, not those who volunteer their time and aircraft. Very neat idea,
there.

Do you only solicit volunteers at Oshkosh?

--
Peter

[Margy Natalie]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 5/4/2007 9:20:00 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah, I sucker, I mean I get about 50 pilots to volunteer to work the
>>day. They stand next to their airplane all day while visitor come up
>>and ask questions and stare at their planes.
>
>
> Ahh, I am sorry. I mistook your "fly-in spots" to mean any fly-in visitor to
> the event, not those who volunteer their time and aircraft. Very neat idea,
> there.
>
> Do you only solicit volunteers at Oshkosh?
>
No, the Oshkosh thing wasn't my idea :-). This is only the 3rd year for
the event.

The first year I invited only people I knew really well who I was
absolutly sure wouldn't screw up in the ADIZ and class B. My agreement
with the airport was for 30 aircraft and it worked out fairly well,
although there was some overheating on departures (long taxi, delays in
getting off). We had 2 Harriers from the Marines (Pax River). 1 glider
trucked in.

Year two - I invited everyone from year one back and added a number of
aircraft that were suggested by the GA curator including some antiques
(read no transponders). The FAA was GREAT in working out flights of two
to get the non-transponder equiped aircraft in. The event went to 50
aircraft (workload for me more than doubled and this event is something
I put together in addition to my real job!). We had an F 18 from the
Navy (Pax River). We also added a hot air balloon, more gliders and
hang gliders (if it's trucked in it "doesn't count" in my 50 aircraft
agreement with the airport. Tower said "if your pilots ask for
intersection departures it might get things moving a bit better". So
pilots asked for intersections and if it would help move things along
them got them. Still we had some overheating issues (it's still a LONG
taxi no matter what).

Year three - I've lost my mind and gone to 50 AIRPLANES and up to 10
helicopters. My dance card is full with a waiting list. This is the
first year I've had more aircraft apply than I've had spots as I always
controlled the invite list more closely. I HATE telling people they
can't come. Of course the first two years I had last minute drop outs
and I'd have to hustle, this year it will be a quick email to the next
on the list. I have some really cool hot air balloons coming from NJ

http://www.skychariot.com/

I'm still looking for more gliders, hang gliders, anything than can come
in by truck.

I've got some really cool things that are still not rock solid. I'll
tell you about them when the ink is dry on the paperwork.

AND THAT'S JUST THE OUTSIDE STUFF!!

I always focus on the fly-in part of the day because I organize it. On
the inside of the museum is a full fledged family day organized by one
of the best - Gloria. She manages to get all sorts of individuals and
groups in for the day to provide educational activities and all sorts of
other cool stuff. Kids (of all ages) will have fun all day.

Jen- Our discovery station person manages to hustle up a ton of teenage
volunteers for the day to work lots of discovery stations (we make it
hard on her by timing this perfectly with our high school graduation
weekend!).

So even if the fly-in part gets rained out (I didn't say that did I?)
there will still be lots to do.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE

On Sunday there is a huge car show accross the road at Sully Plantation,
hence the new marketing plan "Wings and Wheels Weekend".

So, if you happen to be in Northern Virginia that weekend (June 16) it's
a fun thing to do!

Margy

[Peter R.]

On 5/4/2007 10:07:23 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:

> So, if you happen to be in Northern Virginia that weekend (June 16) it's
> a fun thing to do!

An incredible event, it certainly seems. Congratulations on what appears to
be a lot of hard work paying off year after year.

I know my young boys would certainly enjoy attending and I need to give this
one some thought as to how to work it in.

--
Peter

[Margy Natalie]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 5/4/2007 10:07:23 AM, Margy Natalie wrote:
>
>
>>So, if you happen to be in Northern Virginia that weekend (June 16) it's
>>a fun thing to do!
>
>
> An incredible event, it certainly seems. Congratulations on what appears to
> be a lot of hard work paying off year after year.
>
> I know my young boys would certainly enjoy attending and I need to give this
> one some thought as to how to work it in.
>
Thanks, It's growing every year and it is really fun and you're right, a
lot of really hard work, but worth it.

Also debuting this year for "Become a Pilot" (if we can get it done in
time) a C-150 inside the museum that, when staffed, kids will be able to
sit in and learn how to use the control surfaces. Of course right now
it's sitting in the barn, filthy and with no wings on. Guess what I'm
doing on Wednesday!

Margy

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Margy Natalie" > wrote

> Also debuting this year for "Become a Pilot" (if we can get it done in
> time) a C-150 inside the museum that, when staffed, kids will be able to
> sit in and learn how to use the control surfaces. Of course right now
> it's sitting in the barn, filthy and with no wings on. Guess what I'm
> doing on Wednesday!

Your old 150?
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Natalie]

Margy Natalie wrote:

> Well, Landmark provides overnight parking for participants who want to
> come in early and the taxi from there is at least 5 miles. They are on
> the NW corner of the airport and we are about a mile and half south of
> the runways and halfway between, but our gate access is on the SE corner
> of the airport. So it's a long way, but a very nice taxi for at least a
> mile through the woods after you exit the first gate from the main airport.
>
For the big airport squeamish (since the taxi route takes you through
just about everything on the airport) and to make the ATC issues easier
we did a taxi for many of us as a "flight" (either me or Michelle in
the lead). This works pretty well except for last year where I kept
telling them (Navion in the lead, five airplanes back to the biplane),
every controller kept asking "is that four planes", no it's five,
everything back to the biplane...(the reason I put the biplane in
the rear, I figured it was pretty distinctive for Dulles).

I used to be based at Dulles (and Margy actually learned to fly
there), but it's much busier now both for the airlines and all the
bizjet traffic that was effectively kicked out of National.

[Ron Natalie]

Margy Natalie wrote:

>
> Also debuting this year for "Become a Pilot" (if we can get it done in
> time) a C-150 inside the museum that, when staffed, kids will be able to
> sit in and learn how to use the control surfaces. Of course right now
> it's sitting in the barn, filthy and with no wings on. Guess what I'm
> doing on Wednesday!
>
Hey Margy, I bet Meridian could get that thing shiny in no time all :-)

By the way, Margy didn't mention it, but one of the stipulations of
being "on exhibit" is that you gotta stand around and talk about
your aircraft (which is not a problem for most aircraft owners).
Many of us have let kids sit in, work the controls, and get their
pictures taken in our aircraft.

One thing I observed and Jay and others who were there can also say,
unlike some disaster public fly-ins (the Dulles Special Olympics
Plane Pull event for instance), the public is REALY REALY well
behaved at these. First, I think that they are already in a
"museum" mind set, but the real key is that before they go out
on the ramp, they have to sit through a safety lecture about
not touching airplanes, dangers of propellers and the like.

Of course, a big hit (and oddly with the museum director as
much as with the kids) is our mascot, a four foot teddy
bear named Piper who rides in with me. The first year
he wore my Navion shooting down the Bonanza t-shirt (the
overall director of the Air and Space museum is a Bonanza
owner who declined the offer to bring his airplane to the
event). Last year he wore a shirt that says "Bears Fly"
shirt (mimicking the Woman Fly shirt I wear).

[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
> "Margy Natalie" > wrote
>
>> Also debuting this year for "Become a Pilot" (if we can get it done in
>> time) a C-150 inside the museum that, when staffed, kids will be able to
>> sit in and learn how to use the control surfaces. Of course right now
>> it's sitting in the barn, filthy and with no wings on. Guess what I'm
>> doing on Wednesday!
>
> Your old 150?

No, it was one that was donated to the museum by one of the curators but
was otherwise historically undistinctive. It was never on display and
has been bumped from the collection by Bill Kernsher's plane (which is
on the floor right now).

Margy has been fighting to get a 150 (either on display and/or at the
flyin) ever since the FRZ bust by one. She wants people to see
what a big threat they really are :-)

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote

> I used to be based at Dulles (and Margy actually learned to fly
> there), but it's much busier now both for the airlines and all the
> bizjet traffic that was effectively kicked out of National.

Do you think they will ever open National back up to the smaller guy again?
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote

> Margy has been fighting to get a 150 (either on display and/or at the
> flyin) ever since the FRZ bust by one. She wants people to see
> what a big threat they really are :-)

Good point.

Now if you could get ALL of the senate and house down there to check one
out.
--
Jim in NC

[Mxsmanic]

Mike Isaksen writes:

> I hope the LSA/SP bring in a new breed of hobby flyers who can stay in for
> the long haul.

It would make more sense to lower the barriers to PPL.

> This is not intended to put down the Airline Capt wannabees,
> but I do not think that "new student pilot model" has served Rec GA well.
> The guys who go career aviation don't tend to do much small GA flying, and
> I've seen too many bitter outcomes from the student to private to CFI (time
> building) pyramid scheme.

Flight instruction should be an end in itself, not just a stepping stone to
something else.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> But you're right about computers. They have sapped the life out of
> our kids, by allowing them to experience the world without ever
> leaving their chairs. I suppose you might look at this as a good
> thing, from an evolutionary standpoint, but I find it terribly sad.

Computers are the effect, not the cause. Kids resort to computers because
just about anything with the slightest element of risk is now forbidden to
them. Everything that requires movement or strenuous exercise or being away
from constant supervision for more than a few minutes or involves any type of
insurance or liability (which covers practically everything) is no longer an
option. They live with their parents in a state of fear of everything, and
about the only thing that carries very little risk is playing with a computer.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Morgans writes:

> One BIG thing that pilots need to do, is to invite people along with them,
> when they go flying.

In our fearful and litigation-oriented society, that's a great way for a pilot
to go bankrupt and never fly again, should even the slightest thing go wrong
during a flight (just having a passenger get airsick would be enough).

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Morgans writes:

> Myself, I will not allow my life to be ruled by geeks, bean counters, and
> lawyers at insurance companies.

You may not have a choice, if someone decides to bankrupt you with a lawsuit.

> In my case, these are relatively close friends, so I don't think that is the
> cause.

The most bitter proceedings in the legal world are those of probate and
divorce, and yet all the parties involved are family.

--
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[Jay Honeck]

> By the way, Margy didn't mention it, but one of the stipulations of
> being "on exhibit" is that you gotta stand around and talk about
> your aircraft (which is not a problem for most aircraft owners).

That was a wonderful experience for us. Mary and I put together a map
of the US, showing all of our far-flung cross-country flights, and
propped it up against the nosewheel pant. The four of us then just
stood there (like museum exhibits!) and greeted folks as they streamed
past.

Some of the comments and attitudes were priceless! More than one
person stared at us with that distant, disinterested look that one
gets after seeing too many museum exhibits. They would then stop,
look puzzled for a moment at Atlas, and then back at us. Then they
would see the map, showing Iowa as our home...

You could really see the gears turning, as they digested the fact that
we had flown into Dulles International in a vehicle no bigger than
their minivan. More than one person blurted out "You and your family
flew here from Iowa in *that*?"

It was a fantastic opportunity to show the general public that general
aviation is more than just flight for life helicopters and businessmen
jetting off to Aspen. I think we may have ignited a few imaginations
that day in folks who simply had never been exposed to GA.

> One thing I observed and Jay and others who were there can also say,
> unlike some disaster public fly-ins (the Dulles Special Olympics
> Plane Pull event for instance), the public is REALY REALY well
> behaved at these.

Yep, it's a great crowd. Almost too timid, really -- but that's
better than the alternative.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>
>>But you're right about computers. They have sapped the life out of
>>our kids, by allowing them to experience the world without ever
>>leaving their chairs. I suppose you might look at this as a good
>>thing, from an evolutionary standpoint, but I find it terribly sad.
>
>
> Computers are the effect, not the cause. Kids resort to computers because
> just about anything with the slightest element of risk is now forbidden to
> them. Everything that requires movement or strenuous exercise or being away
> from constant supervision for more than a few minutes or involves any type of
> insurance or liability (which covers practically everything) is no longer an
> option. They live with their parents in a state of fear of everything, and
> about the only thing that carries very little risk is playing with a computer.
>
Damned but I hate to agree. Athough I think much of the computer craze
is now a cause. They are very attractive and everyone has one and they
are right there. Couple that with "don't go out until I get home from
work", "No friends over until I get home from work", etc. and you have
the perfect set up for computer kids. A friend who is a professor of
mechanical engineering summed it up quite well, she said, "computers
have been a leveler, it used to be girls couldn't DO anything, now no
one can DO anything". Refering of course to those basic skills our kids
no longer have (cutting, sawing, soldering, attaching, etc.).

I always had a model club at school and lots of people thought I was
nuts letting kids (7th and 8th graders) near exacto knives, etc. I
didn't have on injury (but I did lay the law down pretty thick).

Margy

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote
>
>> I used to be based at Dulles (and Margy actually learned to fly
>> there), but it's much busier now both for the airlines and all the
>> bizjet traffic that was effectively kicked out of National.
>
> Do you think they will ever open National back up to the smaller guy again?

I personally doubt it. Government rarely cedes control that it has
taken. Although it does happen occasionally. I was amazed when PA
repealed its helmet law a few years ago*. I still can't believe that
happened, but it does show that if enough people lobby long enough they
can occasionally make a difference. Maybe the same cam be true with
National. I'm just glad I made one flight in prior to 9/11. I had to
fly in at night as I couldn't get an IFR reservation until after 7 PM in
the winter, but it was a neat flight. I got to hold over the city for a
few minutes waiting for a break in the airline conga line. I could see
several of the monuments and buildings and it was very cool.

* Just for the record, I'm a big believer in wearing a helmet while
motorcycling and bicycling and never ride without one, but I'm not a fan
of helmet laws for adults. I think adults should make that decision for
themselves. I am in favor of insurance companies charging higher
premiums for people who ride without a helmet, or smoke, etc., but I
much prefer to let the market deal with such things rather than
government. If someone is willing to pay the cost of taking a higher
level of risk, I say more power to them.

Matt

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Morgans writes:
>
>> Myself, I will not allow my life to be ruled by geeks, bean counters,
>> and lawyers at insurance companies.
>
> You may not have a choice, if someone decides to bankrupt you with a
> lawsuit.

You're a fjukktard

bertie

[Margy Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
> "Margy Natalie" > wrote
>
>
>>Also debuting this year for "Become a Pilot" (if we can get it done in
>>time) a C-150 inside the museum that, when staffed, kids will be able to
>>sit in and learn how to use the control surfaces. Of course right now
>>it's sitting in the barn, filthy and with no wings on. Guess what I'm
>>doing on Wednesday!
>
>
> Your old 150?
No, it was in the collection, it belonged to a former curator. The
museum was fortunate enough to get Bill Kerschner's 150 and there can't
be two of the same in the collection so the other one was transfered to
education. It's going to be very nice to actually have a plane that
kids can touch. It's going to take lots of soap and polish. It's a
very average 150 that's been in storage for 20 years or so.

Margy

[Mxsmanic]

Margy Natalie writes:

> Damned but I hate to agree. Athough I think much of the computer craze
> is now a cause. They are very attractive and everyone has one and they
> are right there.

I'm sure people said the same thing about telephones and electricity in their
early days.

It should also be kept in mind that, like telephones and electricity,
computers are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Working on a
computer could mean just about anything, since anything that involves
information can be put on a computer. So a kid could be looking for porn, or
doing research for school, or reading about sports, or learning calculus.
Just because he does it with a computer doesn't make it good or bad, any more
than having electricity in the house is good or bad.

> Couple that with "don't go out until I get home from
> work", "No friends over until I get home from work", etc. and you have
> the perfect set up for computer kids.

True.

> A friend who is a professor of
> mechanical engineering summed it up quite well, she said, "computers
> have been a leveler, it used to be girls couldn't DO anything, now no
> one can DO anything". Refering of course to those basic skills our kids
> no longer have (cutting, sawing, soldering, attaching, etc.).

There is less and less need for those skills, since most items today are
manufactured by semi-automated production lines. The average person will
never need to saw or solder anything, so the skill is not useful, and he won't
miss it if he doesn't have it.

> I always had a model club at school and lots of people thought I was
> nuts letting kids (7th and 8th graders) near exacto knives, etc. I
> didn't have on injury (but I did lay the law down pretty thick).

If there had been an injury you would have been bankrupted by a lawsuit. You
were very brave.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Margy Natalie writes:
>
>> Damned but I hate to agree. Athough I think much of the computer
>> craze is now a cause. They are very attractive and everyone has one
>> and they are right there.
>
> I'm sure people said the same thing about telephones and electricity
> in their early days.
>
> It should also be kept in mind that, like telephones and electricity,
> computers are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Working on
> a computer could mean just about anything, since anything that
> involves information can be put on a computer. So a kid could be
> looking for porn, or doing research for school, or reading about
> sports, or learning calculus. Just because he does it with a computer
> doesn't make it good or bad, any more than having electricity in the
> house is good or bad.
>
>> Couple that with "don't go out until I get home from
>> work", "No friends over until I get home from work", etc. and you
>> have the perfect set up for computer kids.
>
> True.
>
>> A friend who is a professor of
>> mechanical engineering summed it up quite well, she said, "computers
>> have been a leveler, it used to be girls couldn't DO anything, now no
>> one can DO anything". Refering of course to those basic skills our
>> kids no longer have (cutting, sawing, soldering, attaching, etc.).
>
> There is less and less need for those skills, since most items today
> are manufactured by semi-automated production lines. The average
> person will never need to saw or solder anything, so the skill is not
> useful, and he won't miss it if he doesn't have it.
>
>> I always had a model club at school and lots of people thought I was
>> nuts letting kids (7th and 8th graders) near exacto knives, etc. I
>> didn't have on injury (but I did lay the law down pretty thick).
>
> If there had been an injury you would have been bankrupted by a
> lawsuit. You were very brave.
>

You're an idiotl.


Bertie

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 03 May 2007 10:03:58 -0400, Margy Natalie >
wrote:

>Another BIG problem with GA is we aren't getting enough kids involved.
>The Young Eagles program is great, but it's not enough. Kids can't hang
>over the airport fence anymore, model airplanes have just about died, RC


They do here and we even are installing a picnic area where the public
an sit and watch. I've taken a good many "fence hangers" for rides.

>is expensive for a 12 year old. It used to be kids wanted to grow up
>and learn how to fly and airplane, now they want to grow up to be a game
>programmer. That's a problem! If you look at the kid's birthday party
>supply places there are NO airplane things, and you can't buy an
>airplane shaped balloon. That says a lot.
>
>WARNING SHAMELESS PLUG FOLLOWS
>
>So if you want to bring the kids out go to
>
>http://www.nasm.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=602
>
>It will be a great day for the kids! Kids = ages 1-101
>
>Before you ask, all the fly-in spots have been filled for this event and
>there is already a waiting list.
>
>Margy

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> But you're right about computers. They have sapped the life out of
>> our kids, by allowing them to experience the world without ever
>> leaving their chairs. I suppose you might look at this as a good
>> thing, from an evolutionary standpoint, but I find it terribly sad.
>
> Computers are the effect, not the cause. Kids resort to computers
> because just about anything with the slightest element of risk is now
> forbidden to them.

You're an idiot.

Bertie

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> Computers are the effect, not the cause. Kids resort to computers because
> just about anything with the slightest element of risk is now forbidden to
> them. Everything that requires movement or strenuous exercise or being
> away
> from constant supervision for more than a few minutes or involves any type
> of
> insurance or liability (which covers practically everything) is no longer
> an
> option. They live with their parents in a state of fear of everything,
> and
> about the only thing that carries very little risk is playing with a
> computer.
>


Oh yeah, roller skates, bicycles, pogo sticks, 4 wheelers, skate boards, BB
guns, fireworks, baseball, football, RC airplanes, swimming pools, lawn
mowers, sling shots, go-carts, coaster cars, mini bikes, unicycles, play
grounds, tree swings, pocket knives, pet rodents, water skiing, horse back
riding, calf roping, and many others - have been outlawed for participants
less than 21 years old in the United States now for gosh, how many years MX,
I don't even recall.

Actually children that lock themselves in a room with a computer, and use it
for nothing more constructive than running flight simulator, and pretending
to be something their not on the Usenet, are actually few and far between.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-05-03, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> But you're right about computers. They have sapped the life out of
> our kids, by allowing them to experience the world without ever
> leaving their chairs.

You can always say $NEWTHING has sapped the life out of/displaced
$OLDTHING from our kids lives. Same thing was said about TV. Same thing
was said about books.

Computers greatly enhanced my life, not sapped it. I wrote my first
computer program age 8, on a Sinclair ZX-81. Computers allowed me to not
experience the world, but make new worlds (albeit very simple ones). It
opened a huge world of creative opportunity for me that otherwise
wouldn't have existed - since when writing a program, all you need is
time (and kids have a lot of it) and not money (which kids don't have).

There's nothing as much fun as seeing your friends play in a virtual
world _you_ invented.

I think it's pretty curmudgeonly to say computers "sap the lives from
our kids", they do nothing of the sort - in many cases, they greatly
enhance the learning and knowledge of our children. Few things stick
better than self-directed learning. There may be lots of hanging out in
IRC and on IM or playing games, but I see children of my friends
learning in ways that prior generations simply couldn't, and by and
large they are smarter for it.

Back to aviation - aviation is never going to be something with mass
appeal: it's a very unnatural thing for ground dwelling beings to do,
and most people find that flying as an experience spans from something
mildly uncomfortable to terrifying. Few people actually enjoy being in
the air. Face it: those of us who do are somewhat weird (in the nicest
possible way). Especially when you consider what we are prepared to
spend on ancient aircraft, costing three times as much as a Mercedes
Benz and not even having AC, let alone being quiet enough inside to
conduct a conversation without a pair of David Clamps. The economics
works against us: those of us free enough (i.e. young and not married)
typically can't afford it, those who are earning enough either have
kids, an unsupportive (of flying) spouse, or more frequently both, and
the older people who's children have left still have the unsupportive
spouse who wants to spend the money on the house, not a plane.

So you have to hook them young, before they get a spouse, so hopefully
one of their spousal qualifiers is "must be supportive of flying". Then
the rugged individualism of the pilot personality works against us: set
up a scholarship so that young people can learn to fly? No! Never! That
includes the dirty word "subsidy!"

The latter, however, is just what we may need. Our tiny glider club
(with only about a dozen regular members) has taught several teenagers
to fly who otherwise would never have been able to afford it thanks to a
scholarship fund run by the BGA. Perhaps there's therefore some hope
that soaring at least can keep interest in general aviation going
because it can hook interested people young. It's not enough to give
kids a flight in a Young Eagles type thing. While this is good, if we
want to keep a supply of new, young pilots - you have to give them a
reason to keep coming back to the airport.

Hopefully the Sport Pilot thing in the US may help, too, in making a
supply of somewhat affordable aircraft (even if the new sport aircraft
now won't be affordable until they are 20 years old). My own aircraft
turns 62 years old this November, the aircraft that I used to own turns
61 years old this year too. To many people in normal jobs who are less
than 35 years old, ancient aircraft are the only affordable ones -
this is not sustainable. We also need a supply of newer affordable
aircraft, and by affordable I mean must not cost significantly more
to buy than a midsized car. We need something new (or at least new-ish)
which is as much fun to fly as my elderly Auster, but without costing
more than a high end Mercedes Benz. While there's nothing wrong with our
old plane, the truth is the number of aircraft whose purchase price is
in that price bracket is falling all the time.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> I personally doubt it. Government rarely cedes control that it has
> taken. Although it does happen occasionally. I was amazed when PA
> repealed its helmet law a few years ago*. I still can't believe that
> happened, but it does show that if enough people lobby long enough
> they can occasionally make a difference. Maybe the same cam be true
> with National. I'm just glad I made one flight in prior to 9/11. I
> had to fly in at night as I couldn't get an IFR reservation until
> after 7 PM in the winter, but it was a neat flight. I got to hold
> over the city for a few minutes waiting for a break in the airline
> conga line. I could see several of the monuments and buildings and
> it was very cool.
> * Just for the record, I'm a big believer in wearing a helmet while
> motorcycling and bicycling and never ride without one, but I'm not a
> fan of helmet laws for adults. I think adults should make that
> decision for themselves. I am in favor of insurance companies
> charging higher premiums for people who ride without a helmet, or
> smoke, etc., but I much prefer to let the market deal with such
> things rather than government. If someone is willing to pay the cost
> of taking a higher level of risk, I say more power to them.
>
> Matt

Arkansas got rid of the adult helmet law a few years back and in the very
same session of the legislature passed a much more stringent seat belt law.
The thing that was interesting was that they didn't really talk about
personal freedom with the helmet law. They just talked about tourism. Seems
Arkansas had lost a number of biker events because we had a helmet law.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Morgans writes:
>
>> One BIG thing that pilots need to do, is to invite people along with
>> them, when they go flying.
>
> In our fearful and litigation-oriented society, that's a great way
> for a pilot to go bankrupt and never fly again, should even the
> slightest thing go wrong during a flight (just having a passenger get
> airsick would be enough).

Interesting statement. Do you have a single example of a GA pilot ever being
sued because a passenger got air sick?

[Maxwell]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
>
> Arkansas got rid of the adult helmet law a few years back and in the very
> same session of the legislature passed a much more stringent seat belt
> law. The thing that was interesting was that they didn't really talk about
> personal freedom with the helmet law. They just talked about tourism.
> Seems Arkansas had lost a number of biker events because we had a helmet
> law.

It might also be because some groups have successfully argued that helmets
have been the cause of death in a number of motorcycle accidents, and there
is much less evidence to support the same claim against seat belts.

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Interesting statement. Do you have a single example of a GA pilot ever being
> sued because a passenger got air sick?

Not offhand. But far more trivial events have triggered successful lawsuits.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> Oh yeah, roller skates, bicycles, pogo sticks, 4 wheelers, skate boards, BB
> guns, fireworks, baseball, football, RC airplanes, swimming pools, lawn
> mowers, sling shots, go-carts, coaster cars, mini bikes, unicycles, play
> grounds, tree swings, pocket knives, pet rodents, water skiing, horse back
> riding, calf roping, and many others - have been outlawed for participants
> less than 21 years old in the United States now for gosh, how many years MX,
> I don't even recall.

They don't have to be outlawed to be forbidden.

--
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[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

>>In our fearful and litigation-oriented society, that's a great way for a
>>pilot
>>to go bankrupt and never fly again, should even the slightest thing go
>>wrong
>>during a flight (just having a passenger get airsick would be enough).

> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> Interesting statement. Do you have a single example of a GA pilot ever
>> being
>> sued because a passenger got air sick?
>
> Not offhand. But far more trivial events have triggered successful
> lawsuits.
>

The correct answer is no, so your motivation is clearly a troll.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> Interesting statement. Do you have a single example of a GA pilot
>> ever being sued because a passenger got air sick?
>
> Not offhand. But far more trivial events have triggered successful
> lawsuits.

Name three. Or a simple "No" to the previous question.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Oh yeah, roller skates, bicycles, pogo sticks, 4 wheelers, skate boards,
>> BB
>> guns, fireworks, baseball, football, RC airplanes, swimming pools, lawn
>> mowers, sling shots, go-carts, coaster cars, mini bikes, unicycles, play
>> grounds, tree swings, pocket knives, pet rodents, water skiing, horse
>> back
>> riding, calf roping, and many others - have been outlawed for
>> participants
>> less than 21 years old in the United States now for gosh, how many years
>> MX,
>> I don't even recall.
>
> They don't have to be outlawed to be forbidden.
>


So what are you saying, your parrents forbid you to play with anything but a
computer?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Oh yeah, roller skates, bicycles, pogo sticks, 4 wheelers, skate
>> boards, BB guns, fireworks, baseball, football, RC airplanes,
>> swimming pools, lawn mowers, sling shots, go-carts, coaster cars,
>> mini bikes, unicycles, play grounds, tree swings, pocket knives, pet
>> rodents, water skiing, horse back riding, calf roping, and many
>> others - have been outlawed for participants less than 21 years old
>> in the United States now for gosh, how many years MX, I don't even
>> recall.
>
> They don't have to be outlawed to be forbidden.
>

Wow, you're like a Mt St Helen's of stupidity.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> Interesting statement. Do you have a single example of a GA pilot
>> ever being sued because a passenger got air sick?
>
> Not offhand. But far more trivial events have triggered successful
> lawsuits.
>

Sez mssr trivial himself.


Bertie