Re: Fast jets in Scotland

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> I was driving down the A9 from Inverness to Edinburgh today and got a
really
> good look at a Tornado GR as it passed at low level over the road. Later I
> saw what looked like F-15's (2, maybe 3 - they were quite far off but the
> plan form is quite distinctive)
>
> There was quite a bit (50%) of cloud at the level they were flying at, and
> obviously a lot of mountains about. Made me think of the fairly recent
case
> where the US tried to fit up a Scottish ATC jockey for their F-15's
> unfortunate interaction with a mountain. Amazing this doesn't happen more
> often really.
>
> John
>

The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him

Keith

[Anonymous]

John Mullen wrote in message ...
>I was driving down the A9 from Inverness to Edinburgh today and got a really
>good look at a Tornado GR as it passed at low level over the road. Later I
>saw what looked like F-15's (2, maybe 3 - they were quite far off but the
>plan form is quite distinctive)
>
>There was quite a bit (50%) of cloud at the level they were flying at, and
>obviously a lot of mountains about. Made me think of the fairly recent case
>where the US tried to fit up a Scottish ATC jockey for their F-15's
>unfortunate interaction with a mountain. Amazing this doesn't happen more
>often really.

I'm up in Thurso, right up in the far North East.

The RAF jets from Lossiemouth, Leuchars, and Fort William seem to be giving
us a constant daily airshow.

A Tornado buzzed the building in which I work yesterday (an IT call centre)
and it made all the glass window panes in the roof rattle like crazy.

They fly round here almost daily, although it is almost always Tornados.

I did see a pair of F-16s (unmistakable) flying over the river past my high
school about 6 years ago (while I was still a pupil there).

The skies are surprisingly busy round here, considering that the nearest
RAF bases are each over 80 miles away.

Cheers
Graeme

[John Mullen]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I was driving down the A9 from Inverness to Edinburgh today and got a
> really
> > good look at a Tornado GR as it passed at low level over the road. Later
I
> > saw what looked like F-15's (2, maybe 3 - they were quite far off but
the
> > plan form is quite distinctive)
> >
> > There was quite a bit (50%) of cloud at the level they were flying at,
and
> > obviously a lot of mountains about. Made me think of the fairly recent
> case
> > where the US tried to fit up a Scottish ATC jockey for their F-15's
> > unfortunate interaction with a mountain. Amazing this doesn't happen
more
> > often really.
> >
> > John
> >
>
> The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him

I had inferred there was an element of political pressure from our allies
and masters - or else why would the RAF have brought such a stupid and
pointless case? Either I'm being too paranoid, or you're being naive

John

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him
>
> I had inferred there was an element of political pressure from our allies
> and masters - or else why would the RAF have brought such a stupid and
> pointless case? Either I'm being too paranoid, or you're being naive
>
> John
>
>

SO your accusation is in fact based only on your
own assumptions and prejudices.

Nuff said.

Keith

[John Mullen]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him
> >
> > I had inferred there was an element of political pressure from our
allies
> > and masters - or else why would the RAF have brought such a stupid and
> > pointless case? Either I'm being too paranoid, or you're being naive
> >
> > John
> >
> >
>
> SO your accusation is in fact based only on your
> own assumptions and prejudices.

.... and a certain knowledge of how the world works.

> Nuff said.

Why do *you* think the RAF brought a case they could never win?

John

[Ralph Savelsberg]

John Mullen wrote:


>>>>The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him
>>>>
>>>I had inferred there was an element of political pressure from our
>>>
> allies
>
>>>and masters - or else why would the RAF have brought such a stupid and
>>>pointless case? Either I'm being too paranoid, or you're being naive
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>SO your accusation is in fact based only on your
>>own assumptions and prejudices.
>>
>
> ... and a certain knowledge of how the world works.
>
>
>>Nuff said.
>>
>
> Why do *you* think the RAF brought a case they could never win?
>
> John
>
>
>

Might I suggest that both of you read an article about this very subject
in this month's Air Forces Monthly?
John Mullen doesn't seem to be the only one who has inferred that the US
pushed the RAF into blaiming the ATC officer.
The writer of abovementioned article (who served as a defense witness
regarding ATC procedures during the courtmartial)
also writes having this impression.

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg

[John Mullen]

"Ralph Savelsberg" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> John Mullen wrote:
>
>
> >>>>The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him
> >>>>
> >>>I had inferred there was an element of political pressure from our
> >>>
> > allies
> >
> >>>and masters - or else why would the RAF have brought such a stupid and
> >>>pointless case? Either I'm being too paranoid, or you're being naive
> >>>
> >>>John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>SO your accusation is in fact based only on your
> >>own assumptions and prejudices.
> >>
> >
> > ... and a certain knowledge of how the world works.
> >
> >
> >>Nuff said.
> >>
> >
> > Why do *you* think the RAF brought a case they could never win?
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
>
> Might I suggest that both of you read an article about this very subject
> in this month's Air Forces Monthly?
> John Mullen doesn't seem to be the only one who has inferred that the US
> pushed the RAF into blaiming the ATC officer.
> The writer of abovementioned article (who served as a defense witness
> regarding ATC procedures during the courtmartial)
> also writes having this impression.

Thanks a million Ralph - you just reminded me my subscription to AFM has
expired, which accounts for the fact the latest issue hasn't arrived! Just
renewed it, and off to the shop to buy the current issue and read the
article you mention...

John

[John Mullen]

"Anonymous" > wrote in message
...
>
> John Mullen wrote in message ...
> >I was driving down the A9 from Inverness to Edinburgh today and got a
really
> >good look at a Tornado GR as it passed at low level over the road. Later
I
> >saw what looked like F-15's (2, maybe 3 - they were quite far off but the
> >plan form is quite distinctive)
> >
> >There was quite a bit (50%) of cloud at the level they were flying at,
and
> >obviously a lot of mountains about. Made me think of the fairly recent
case
> >where the US tried to fit up a Scottish ATC jockey for their F-15's
> >unfortunate interaction with a mountain. Amazing this doesn't happen more
> >often really.
>
> I'm up in Thurso, right up in the far North East.
>
> The RAF jets from Lossiemouth, Leuchars, and Fort William seem to be
giving
> us a constant daily airshow.
>
> A Tornado buzzed the building in which I work yesterday (an IT call
centre)
> and it made all the glass window panes in the roof rattle like crazy.
>
> They fly round here almost daily, although it is almost always Tornados.
>
> I did see a pair of F-16s (unmistakable) flying over the river past my
high
> school about 6 years ago (while I was still a pupil there).
>
> The skies are surprisingly busy round here, considering that the nearest
> RAF bases are each over 80 miles away.
>

I know many local people find the noise disturbing, but on my visits I
really enjoy seeing what amounts as you say to a free airshow!

Couple of years ago I saw what looked like two Tornadoes practicing
dog-fighting off Skye! That was amazing...

John

[Richard Brooks]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> "Anonymous" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > John Mullen wrote in message ...
> > >I was driving down the A9 from Inverness to Edinburgh today and got a
> really
> > >good look at a Tornado GR as it passed at low level over the road.
Later
> I
> > >saw what looked like F-15's (2, maybe 3 - they were quite far off but
the
> > >plan form is quite distinctive)
> > >
> > >There was quite a bit (50%) of cloud at the level they were flying at,
> and
> > >obviously a lot of mountains about. Made me think of the fairly recent
> case
> > >where the US tried to fit up a Scottish ATC jockey for their F-15's
> > >unfortunate interaction with a mountain. Amazing this doesn't happen
more
> > >often really.
> >
> > I'm up in Thurso, right up in the far North East.
> >
> > The RAF jets from Lossiemouth, Leuchars, and Fort William seem to be
> giving
> > us a constant daily airshow.
> >
> > A Tornado buzzed the building in which I work yesterday (an IT call
> centre)
> > and it made all the glass window panes in the roof rattle like crazy.
> >
> > They fly round here almost daily, although it is almost always Tornados.
> >
> > I did see a pair of F-16s (unmistakable) flying over the river past my
> high
> > school about 6 years ago (while I was still a pupil there).
> >
> > The skies are surprisingly busy round here, considering that the nearest
> > RAF bases are each over 80 miles away.
> >
>
> I know many local people find the noise disturbing, but on my visits I
> really enjoy seeing what amounts as you say to a free airshow!
>
> Couple of years ago I saw what looked like two Tornadoes practicing
> dog-fighting off Skye! That was amazing...
>
> John

I got the same when visiting my Brother-in-Law (could be around three
decades ago) at Peterborough when he was serving with the RAF as drill
instructor at Wittering and I saw Harriers and (IIRC) Hunters whizzing
around all over the skies. He basically told me, "you saw nothing and it
never happened" when I quizzed him on this practice.


Richard.

[Ralph Savelsberg]

John Mullen wrote:

> "Ralph Savelsberg" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>John Mullen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>The US didnt try to fit anyone up, the RAF courtmartialled him
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>I had inferred there was an element of political pressure from our
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>allies
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and masters - or else why would the RAF have brought such a stupid and
>>>>>pointless case? Either I'm being too paranoid, or you're being naive
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>SO your accusation is in fact based only on your
>>>>own assumptions and prejudices.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>... and a certain knowledge of how the world works.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Nuff said.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Why do *you* think the RAF brought a case they could never win?
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Might I suggest that both of you read an article about this very subject
>>in this month's Air Forces Monthly?
>>John Mullen doesn't seem to be the only one who has inferred that the US
>>pushed the RAF into blaiming the ATC officer.
>>The writer of abovementioned article (who served as a defense witness
>>regarding ATC procedures during the courtmartial)
>>also writes having this impression.
>>
>
> Thanks a million Ralph - you just reminded me my subscription to AFM has
> expired, which accounts for the fact the latest issue hasn't arrived! Just
> renewed it, and off to the shop to buy the current issue and read the
> article you mention...
>
> John
>
>

A little addendum to my previous message. The writer of the article is
Steve Davies, who himself wasn't involved with the case. I was confused
by a picture in it which showed one of the defence witnesses, which lead
me to assume he was the guy who wrote it. I had had only skimmed the
article until yesterday. Sorry for the mix-up.

Anyway, Davies specifically raises a number of questions including:
Was there pressure from the USA to convene a court martial?

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg


>

[Nick Pedley]

"Graeme Carrott" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Anonymous
> > writes
> >
> >The skies are surprisingly busy round here, considering that the nearest
> >RAF bases are each over 80 miles away.
> >
> Not surprising at all, since you're inside LOTA Alpha, one of the RAF's
> main low-level training areas, and just outside LFA 14(T). Also, live
> bombing still takes place at Garvie Island just off Cape Wrath, which
> isn't many minutes flying time west of you.
>
> Incidentally, the A9 in the Pass of Drumochter is allegedly named 'Star
> Wars Valley' by RAF pilots - as is a much narrower valley between
> Selkirk and Moffat in the Borders - the latter being one of my favourite
> places to see really low-level training taking place.
>
> There are loads of places in Britain to see aircraft coming down into
> the weeds to play.... I make a point of visiting them on a regular basis
> to see a free airshow every so often! :)
>
Was walking on the North York Moors last week and saw Tornado fighters
flying low several times. Best was seeing three (3) Jaguars in a line fly
over a ridge and then turn down the valley right in front of me as I sat on
the other side of the valley (Bilsdale, above Urra on the B1257).
Day after that I witnessed a loaded F-15 closely followed by an F-16 as I
walked near Osmotherley. Brilliant stuff!
On Monday on the way home I stopped near Cottesmore and saw the noisy
buggers... ahem!...Harriers flying around.

Nick

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Nick Pedley
> writes
>
>"Graeme Carrott" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, Anonymous
>> > writes
>> >
>> >The skies are surprisingly busy round here, considering that the nearest
>> >RAF bases are each over 80 miles away.
>> >
>> Not surprising at all, since you're inside LOTA Alpha, one of the RAF's
>> main low-level training areas, and just outside LFA 14(T). Also, live
>> bombing still takes place at Garvie Island just off Cape Wrath, which
>> isn't many minutes flying time west of you.
>>
>> Incidentally, the A9 in the Pass of Drumochter is allegedly named 'Star
>> Wars Valley' by RAF pilots - as is a much narrower valley between
>> Selkirk and Moffat in the Borders - the latter being one of my favourite
>> places to see really low-level training taking place.
>>
>> There are loads of places in Britain to see aircraft coming down into
>> the weeds to play.... I make a point of visiting them on a regular basis
>> to see a free airshow every so often! :)
>>
>Was walking on the North York Moors last week and saw Tornado fighters
>flying low several times. Best was seeing three (3) Jaguars in a line fly
>over a ridge and then turn down the valley right in front of me as I sat on
>the other side of the valley (Bilsdale, above Urra on the B1257).
>Day after that I witnessed a loaded F-15 closely followed by an F-16 as I
>walked near Osmotherley. Brilliant stuff!
>On Monday on the way home I stopped near Cottesmore and saw the noisy
>buggers... ahem!...Harriers flying around.

Try the A49 north of Ludlow for 6 Hercules in series 400ft over your
head...

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Nick Pedley]

"M. J. Powell" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Nick Pedley
> > writes
> >
> >"Graeme Carrott" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >, Anonymous
> >> > writes
> >> >
> >> >The skies are surprisingly busy round here, considering that the
nearest
> >> >RAF bases are each over 80 miles away.
> >> >
> >> Not surprising at all, since you're inside LOTA Alpha, one of the RAF's
> >> main low-level training areas, and just outside LFA 14(T). Also, live
> >> bombing still takes place at Garvie Island just off Cape Wrath, which
> >> isn't many minutes flying time west of you.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, the A9 in the Pass of Drumochter is allegedly named 'Star
> >> Wars Valley' by RAF pilots - as is a much narrower valley between
> >> Selkirk and Moffat in the Borders - the latter being one of my
favourite
> >> places to see really low-level training taking place.
> >>
> >> There are loads of places in Britain to see aircraft coming down into
> >> the weeds to play.... I make a point of visiting them on a regular
basis
> >> to see a free airshow every so often! :)
> >>
> >Was walking on the North York Moors last week and saw Tornado fighters
> >flying low several times. Best was seeing three (3) Jaguars in a line fly
> >over a ridge and then turn down the valley right in front of me as I sat
on
> >the other side of the valley (Bilsdale, above Urra on the B1257).
> >Day after that I witnessed a loaded F-15 closely followed by an F-16 as I
> >walked near Osmotherley. Brilliant stuff!
> >On Monday on the way home I stopped near Cottesmore and saw the noisy
> >buggers... ahem!...Harriers flying around.
>
> Try the A49 north of Ludlow for 6 Hercules in series 400ft over your
> head...
>
> Mike

I work at Epping hospital, just two miles from North Weald. Saw a Hunter do
a low flyby today, couple of weeks ago it was the Catalina with a US-style
flag on the tail doing circuits. Everyday something different goes overhead.

Nick

[Alan Dicey]

I can still remember, in the early seventies, coming over a pass into
Teesdale (I think), only to find a Vulcan flying up the valley /below/ me.
It was almost surreal to look down on that great camouflaged tin
triangle, looking like some unlikely ocean ray swimming across the
landscape. I simply had to stop and watch it till it was out of sight.

[John Halliwell]

In article >, Alan Dicey
> writes
>I can still remember, in the early seventies, coming over a pass into
>Teesdale (I think), only to find a Vulcan flying up the valley /below/ me.
> It was almost surreal to look down on that great camouflaged tin
>triangle, looking like some unlikely ocean ray swimming across the
>landscape. I simply had to stop and watch it till it was out of sight.

I heard a wonderful story, no idea how authentic but here goes:

One RAF Harrier squadron had a lot pilots who were also very keen
bikers, when not flying fast and low, they liked to ride the country
lanes close to base very fast. The local police heard about bikers
riding fast and started to set up speed traps. One day they pulled over
the CO for speeding. One Sunday morning a few weeks later, a policeman
was manning one of these speed traps, all of a sudden the quiet was
broken by a Harrier doing 450 knots at 40 feet directly over his head.
The speed gun was making a strange sound, flashed an error condition and
was later found to be un-repairable. The police chief constable wrote to
the squadron CO, explaining the incident and requesting payment for the
broken speed gun. The CO wrote back, saying the aircraft's threat
receiver had identified it as hostile and jammed it, the damage was
unfortunate but they wouldn't be paying for it. He finished the letter
by suggesting that to avoid further similar incidents, the police should
inform him when/where speed traps were going to be setup.

--
John

[Mary Shafer]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:00:33 +0100, John Halliwell
> wrote:

> In article >, Alan Dicey
> > writes
> >I can still remember, in the early seventies, coming over a pass into
> >Teesdale (I think), only to find a Vulcan flying up the valley /below/ me.
> > It was almost surreal to look down on that great camouflaged tin
> >triangle, looking like some unlikely ocean ray swimming across the
> >landscape. I simply had to stop and watch it till it was out of sight.
>
> I heard a wonderful story, no idea how authentic but here goes:
>
> One RAF Harrier squadron had a lot pilots who were also very keen
> bikers, when not flying fast and low, they liked to ride the country
> lanes close to base very fast. The local police heard about bikers
> riding fast and started to set up speed traps. One day they pulled over
> the CO for speeding. One Sunday morning a few weeks later, a policeman
> was manning one of these speed traps, all of a sudden the quiet was
> broken by a Harrier doing 450 knots at 40 feet directly over his head.
> The speed gun was making a strange sound, flashed an error condition and
> was later found to be un-repairable. The police chief constable wrote to
> the squadron CO, explaining the incident and requesting payment for the
> broken speed gun. The CO wrote back, saying the aircraft's threat
> receiver had identified it as hostile and jammed it, the damage was
> unfortunate but they wouldn't be paying for it. He finished the letter
> by suggesting that to avoid further similar incidents, the police should
> inform him when/where speed traps were going to be setup.

I love this story. So British (a compliment, not a snipe).

There's a similar story, which I think I read in Straight and Level,
about a couple of policemen out on the moors (or something) laying a
radar speed trap for motorists. A Harrier whipped by overhead (shades
of the Falklands penguins) and the policemen, for kicks, acquired it
with their radar. The Harrier pilot unleashed some kind of
countermeasure, breaking the radar, and the local police complained to
the RAF, only to be told that they were very lucky that the pilot had
not pickled off the SEADS ordnance (HARM?) that had pinpointed them
and was begging, figuratively, to be set free.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."
Anonymous US fighter pilot

[Patrick Bean]

In article >,
Mary Shafer > wrote:
> police complained to
> the RAF, only to be told that they were very lucky that the pilot had
> not pickled off the SEADS ordnance (HARM?) that had pinpointed them
> and was begging, figuratively, to be set free.

ALARM I would think, but yes, that would really have done some damage to
police equipment. :-)

--
____ ___ ____ ____ ___ ____
| _ \|_ _/ ___| / ___| / _ \/ ___| /| Patrick Bean, My site is at
| |_) || |\___ \| | | | | \___ \ / | www.btinternet.com/~pdbean/
| _ < | | ___) | |___ | |_| |___) | /__|__ Using Risc OS4 on a Windows free
|_| \_\___|____/ \____| \___/|____/ | System. See www.riscos.org/

[Matt Clonfero]

In article >, Mary Shafer
> wrote:

>I love this story. So British (a compliment, not a snipe).
>
>There's a similar story, which I think I read in Straight and Level,
>about a couple of policemen out on the moors (or something) laying a
>radar speed trap for motorists. A Harrier whipped by overhead (shades
>of the Falklands penguins) and the policemen, for kicks, acquired it
>with their radar. The Harrier pilot unleashed some kind of
>countermeasure, breaking the radar, and the local police complained to
>the RAF, only to be told that they were very lucky that the pilot had
>not pickled off the SEADS ordnance (HARM?) that had pinpointed them
>and was begging, figuratively, to be set free.

I think that one is an urban legend. In a similar vein, though:

The local constabulary near one of the Harrier stations had received
reports of cars driving fast at night without headlights - well, more so
that the local population of 18 year old boys could sustain. So they set
out to catch the villains. And they did - harrier pilots with their new
helmet-mounted NVG, out to see how well it worked before they had to fly
with it.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
--
To err is human
To forgive is not
Air Force Policy

[Nick Pedley]

"Matt Clonfero" ]> wrote in message
...
> In article >, Mary Shafer
> > wrote:
>
> >I love this story. So British (a compliment, not a snipe).
> >
SNIP
>
> I think that one is an urban legend. In a similar vein, though:
>
> The local constabulary near one of the Harrier stations had received
> reports of cars driving fast at night without headlights - well, more so
> that the local population of 18 year old boys could sustain. So they set
> out to catch the villains. And they did - harrier pilots with their new
> helmet-mounted NVG, out to see how well it worked before they had to fly
> with it.
>
On that note, here's a story I heard while in the USA 5 years ago.

After a new highway was built somewhere near a border, Police patrols got
into the habit of visiting a local cafe for a takeaway snack and taking
their breaks parked on an unlit stretch of the old highway. One night the
cops were surprised by the sound of a car screaming past at high speed but
couldn't see anything go past in the pitchblack moonless night. This
happened a few times over the next few months leading to ghost stories of
the 'Haunted Highway'...

When it was found by chance one night that this 'ghost car' registered on a
speed camera at 140mph it was decided that it might not be a phantom. A few
weeks later, one high speed helicopter chase and a roadblock later revealed
it was a blacked-out sports car (with taped out reflectors, lights, matt
paint etc) driven by a pair of young drug smugglers wearing NVG's!

Nick