OT Quote found on Web

[Pat Carpenter]

>Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world.
>
>— Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden

http://www.skygod.com/quotes/

[Lynn Coffelt]

"Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
...
> >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world.
> >
> >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>
> http://www.skygod.com/quotes/

Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
Old Chief Lynn

[Lynn Coffelt]

"Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
...
> >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world.
> >
> >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>
> http://www.skygod.com/quotes/

Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
Old Chief Lynn

[tscottme]

Pat Carpenter > wrote in message
...
> >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world.
> >
> >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>
> http://www.skygod.com/quotes/


Reminds me of all the Liberal Arts majors that "tisk, tisk" when some
complex engineering goes wrong.

--
Scott
--------
Saudi Arabia is the enemy, let's stop pretending otherwise.

[Lynn Coffelt]

<snip> "And you asked the same question twice, several hours
> apart.....it's hell when you start to lose track of your own stuff, isn't
it.
> It's your ticket into the CRS Club, if you're not already a member."<snip>
George Z.

OK, I admit to losing track of a lot of my own stuff, but this iteration is
a little different. Something helped me here! I had been in bed, asleep,
with the computer "off" for two hours at the time of the second posting!
AND, while I clearly see both of the posts on r.a.m. this morning, my
"Outhouse Express" "sent items" file only shows the first one. Virus?
Hacker? hyperactive news server? I noticed a couple of duplicate postings
(and one triple) on a.b.p.a. this morning too. All the duplicates I've
noticed (including mine) were sent at 1:37am this morning.

Does one need a ticket to join the CRS club? <grin>

Old Chief Lynn

[Gooneybird]

"Lynn Coffelt" > wrote in message
news:jayRa.72902$OZ2.13436@rwcrnsc54...
>
> <snip> "And you asked the same question twice, several hours
> > apart.....it's hell when you start to lose track of your own stuff, isn't
> it.
> > It's your ticket into the CRS Club, if you're not already a member."<snip>
> George Z.
>
> OK, I admit to losing track of a lot of my own stuff, but this iteration is
> a little different. Something helped me here! I had been in bed, asleep,
> with the computer "off" for two hours at the time of the second posting!
> AND, while I clearly see both of the posts on r.a.m. this morning, my
> "Outhouse Express" "sent items" file only shows the first one. Virus?
> Hacker? hyperactive news server? I noticed a couple of duplicate postings
> (and one triple) on a.b.p.a. this morning too. All the duplicates I've
> noticed (including mine) were sent at 1:37am this morning.

Maybe it was caused by the 1:37 computer hiccup virus.
>
> Does one need a ticket to join the CRS club? <grin>

Nah....there's always room for one more charter member! (^-^)))

George Z.

[Gooneybird]

Dudley, as the years pass, I've become more and more Presbyterian in my outlook
on life and death. There very well may be a Good Book somewhere up there with
everybody's name inscribed, along with an arrival date and a departure date, and
it doesn't matter what the person does or doesn't do, when the departure date
arrives, he's outta' here.

I've flown with guys who could've flown the pants off me, and twice on Sundays,
who are no longer with us, as well as far less competent twits than I who are
still around apparently tempting fate with every twitch and never quite meeting
up with it. I'm sure you know zillions of people, especially in the latter
group, who always make you wonder how they get by. I know I do.

All of which is not to say that doing your best doesn't matter. And, re-reading
your comments, I don't think that my slant, while perhaps capricious, are in
conflict with your views on the subject.

George Z.

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> "Gooneybird" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> One of my pet commentaries more or less
>> along the same lines is "If you don't want to screw up on your job, don't get
>> out of bed in the morning."
>>
>> George Z.
>
> Sounds good, but might not always be the case. There are jobs in this world,
> (I had one of them for many years, and I might add, I'm still here to write
> about it :-) that absolutely demanded perfection each and every instant the
> job was being done in real time; it was a job where there was absolutely no
> margin for the slightest error; where any error at all would have caused
> instant death.
> No biggie really, but nonetheless, there are jobs like that out there, and
> people who have done these jobs on a protracted basis through time and
> survived.
> Cliché's are nice. Reality however, will either kill you or you'll survive,
> depending on your ability to maintain what is needed on an ongoing basis and
> how you deal with it in real time......EVERY TIME!!!! :-)
> I would add, that there's a price that must be paid over time if one is
> engaged in such work. I've found the price to be cumulative. The trick is
> knowing when the price has reached the point where just one more exposure to
> the job will cross the safety line. If you quit at or before that point, you
> survive. If not, you're history!
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/CFI
> Retired

[Dudley Henriques]

"Gooneybird" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley, as the years pass, I've become more and more Presbyterian in my
outlook
> on life and death. There very well may be a Good Book somewhere up there
with
> everybody's name inscribed, along with an arrival date and a departure
date, and
> it doesn't matter what the person does or doesn't do, when the departure
date
> arrives, he's outta' here.
>
> I've flown with guys who could've flown the pants off me, and twice on
Sundays,
> who are no longer with us, as well as far less competent twits than I who
are
> still around apparently tempting fate with every twitch and never quite
meeting
> up with it. I'm sure you know zillions of people, especially in the
latter
> group, who always make you wonder how they get by. I know I do.
>
> All of which is not to say that doing your best doesn't matter. And,
re-reading
> your comments, I don't think that my slant, while perhaps capricious, are
in
> conflict with your views on the subject.

Hi Goony,

No, not in conflict; more a difference in outlook I think. In my business, I
couldn't afford the luxury of accepting the fact that at any moment, my
"luck" might run out. Nor could I afford the "fate will decide" philosophy
either. None of us that I knew then and know now think this way. Our type of
flying was in many ways different than anything you can imagine, if you fly
airplanes for pleasure and enjoyment. It's a whole different world, and even
I have trouble explaining it to people who have not been directly involved
with it.
Basically, to survive longer than a few days, one literally has to become
the antithesis of what you are saying. If you go into the low altitude acro
business with a "fate will decide" attitude, believe me, you will be dead in
short order.
The name of the game is to defy what you are describing as "fate" by
constantly striving to perform above the level where "fate" is a factor.
Fate is for people who believe in fate. It goes far deeper than a simple,
"God will decide" In our business, fate is often simply a word to describe a
mistake made that shouldn't have been made. You don't make mistakes like
this very long in low altitude acro and live.
It's all true about the things you said pertaining to bad pilots outliving
good ones. Happens all the time......just not very often in the low altitude
acro business :-))
Most of us doing this work believe in God. We also believe that God gave us
the brains, desire, and intelligence to, for the most part control our own
"fate" by using the tools he gave us wisely. We honestly believe that if we
do this, God allows the odds to be cut in our favor.
"Fate" is a fairly intangible thing you know. Let's just say that in the
acro business, "fate" hangs very much in the favor of the pilot who has
honed his performance to a razor edge and is willing to pay the price in
work, toil, and sweat, to keep that edge razor sharp.
Yes, pilots like this do die once in a while, and no one ever REALLY reaches
that perfect mark of excellence. I know in my career I personally have made
several mistakes that could have killed me but for some reason didn't. Fate
perhaps? :-)
For those of us who still get together and discuss these things once in
awhile, (mostly after a few cold ones I might add :-))) I've found that the
ultimate mark of respect we both give and receive among ourselves in private
can be directly equated to the amount of times each of us has "met the
Tiger" and lived to do it again. If you were to summarize how we who have
done this feel about it now, I would have to say that there might be a few
who believe that Fate had a hand in it all. Mostly though, I think the
majority of us believe that whatever fate is, and however fate can be
defined, it's possible to nullify the onset of fate through superior
performance. For those of us who believe in a supreme being, that also means
that God smiles on pilots who are razor sharp and stay that way, and doesn't
take kindly to those who don't.........fate perhaps?????? :-)
All the best
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired

[Mary Shafer]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:10:03 GMT, "Lynn Coffelt"
> wrote:

>
> "Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
> live in the real world.
> > >
> > >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
> >
> > http://www.skygod.com/quotes/
>
> Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?

I sure did. I meant it, too. I still do.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."
Anonymous US fighter pilot

[George Shirley]

Mary Shafer wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:10:03 GMT, "Lynn Coffelt"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>>Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
>>
>>live in the real world.
>>
>>>>- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>>>
>>>http://www.skygod.com/quotes/
>>
>>Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
>
>
> I sure did. I meant it, too. I still do.
>
> Mary
>
Me too Mary. I've been a safety professional for more than 30 years and
still believe that way.

George

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:10:03 GMT, "Lynn Coffelt"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> > "Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
> > live in the real world.
> > > >
> > > >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
> > >
> > > http://www.skygod.com/quotes/
> >
> > Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
>
> I sure did. I meant it, too. I still do.
>
> Mary

And you're right too!
In the high performance airplane business anyway, all you get is a chance to
do it right the first time.If the airplane gives you a second chance, you're
damn lucky!!!. There are no guarantees. The people who work in this scenario
know the risks completely. They have accepted those risks and done
everything possible to minimize those risks through training, knowledge, and
ability. People who don't know this environment are the ones who do all the
crying and bitching when things go wrong. Those of us who know better do
what everybody in the active community does when the Tiger bites Although we
feel a loss deeply, and believe me, we do feel losses deeply; much more than
anyone outside the arena can ever imagine. We gut this out, then we pick
apart each and every facet of what happened; learn from it; and make
whatever adjustments are necessary to insure that what happened won't happen
to us. Then we assess the damage and get on with the program. There's WORK
to be done, and what we have learned will allow a tragedy to become
something more than a tragedy; a legacy that makes the overall program safer
for those who follow.
It's a cruel world up there, and progress doesn't come with a cheap price
tag sometimes.
I'm reminded of a forward I wrote many years ago for a tech manual I did on
ACM. The forward was true...and about says it all.

" I once had a friend. Jim was one horrific flying son-of-a-bitch. He was
the best natural born fighter pilot I've ever known. In his entire career,
he only made one mistake.
Jim's dead."

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: OT Quote found on Web (ping Mary)
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 7/17/03 6:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>
>"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:10:03 GMT, "Lynn Coffelt"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
>> > live in the real world.
>> > > >
>> > > >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>> > >
>> > > http://www.skygod.com/quotes/
>> >
>> > Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
>>
>> I sure did. I meant it, too. I still do.
>>
>> Mary
>
> And you're right too!
>In the high performance airplane business anyway, all you get is a chance to
>do it right the first time.If the airplane gives you a second chance, you're
>damn lucky!!!. There are no guarantees. The people who work in this scenario
>know the risks completely. They have accepted those risks and done
>everything possible to minimize those risks through training, knowledge, and
>ability. People who don't know this environment are the ones who do all the
>crying and bitching when things go wrong. Those of us who know better do
>what everybody in the active community does when the Tiger bites Although we
>feel a loss deeply, and believe me, we do feel losses deeply; much more than
>anyone outside the arena can ever imagine. We gut this out, then we pick
>apart each and every facet of what happened; learn from it; and make
>whatever adjustments are necessary to insure that what happened won't happen
>to us. Then we assess the damage and get on with the program. There's WORK
>to be done, and what we have learned will allow a tragedy to become
>something more than a tragedy; a legacy that makes the overall program safer
>for those who follow.
>It's a cruel world up there, and progress doesn't come with a cheap price
>tag sometimes.
>I'm reminded of a forward I wrote many years ago for a tech manual I did on
>ACM. The forward was true...and about says it all.
>
>" I once had a friend. Jim was one horrific flying son-of-a-bitch. He was
>the best natural born fighter pilot I've ever known. In his entire career,
>he only made one mistake.
>Jim's dead."
>
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/CFI
>Retired
>

May we never forget our absent friends.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

John > wrote:

>>
>> Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
>> Old Chief Lynn
>
> Yep she did, I've got some posts of hers from years & years ago
>with the tagline on it. (in my SR-71 & Skunk-works folder)
>shes got a couple of other good ones too!

Well yes she did, I can't say that it impresses me a lot, just as
her assertion that there's no such thing as pilot error does
either.


-Gord.

"You are completely focused on RPM as the
single factor producing rotational velocity"
-Guess who?

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: OT Quote found on Web (ping Mary)
> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> >Date: 7/17/03 6:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: . net>
> >
> >
> >"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:10:03 GMT, "Lynn Coffelt"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > > >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls
to
> >> > live in the real world.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.skygod.com/quotes/
> >> >
> >> > Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?
> >>
> >> I sure did. I meant it, too. I still do.
> >>
> >> Mary
> >
> > And you're right too!
> >In the high performance airplane business anyway, all you get is a chance
to
> >do it right the first time.If the airplane gives you a second chance,
you're
> >damn lucky!!!. There are no guarantees. The people who work in this
scenario
> >know the risks completely. They have accepted those risks and done
> >everything possible to minimize those risks through training, knowledge,
and
> >ability. People who don't know this environment are the ones who do all
the
> >crying and bitching when things go wrong. Those of us who know better do
> >what everybody in the active community does when the Tiger bites Although
we
> >feel a loss deeply, and believe me, we do feel losses deeply; much more
than
> >anyone outside the arena can ever imagine. We gut this out, then we pick
> >apart each and every facet of what happened; learn from it; and make
> >whatever adjustments are necessary to insure that what happened won't
happen
> >to us. Then we assess the damage and get on with the program. There's
WORK
> >to be done, and what we have learned will allow a tragedy to become
> >something more than a tragedy; a legacy that makes the overall program
safer
> >for those who follow.
> >It's a cruel world up there, and progress doesn't come with a cheap price
> >tag sometimes.
> >I'm reminded of a forward I wrote many years ago for a tech manual I did
on
> >ACM. The forward was true...and about says it all.
> >
> >" I once had a friend. Jim was one horrific flying son-of-a-bitch. He was
> >the best natural born fighter pilot I've ever known. In his entire
career,
> >he only made one mistake.
> >Jim's dead."
> >
> >Dudley Henriques
> >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> >Commercial Pilot/CFI
> >Retired
> >
>
> May we never forget our absent friends.

Captain James R. Shotwell Jr.
AO 834311
142nd Fighter Squadron
Delaware Air National Guard
Killed March 19th 1955 1515EST
New Castle Air Force Base
Wilmington Delaware
North American F86A-7-NA
#49-1169N

Just one of the many who won't be forgotten.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired

[Cub Driver]

A friend of mine worked at Sanders Associates, a defense contractor in
navy and air force electronics, for many years. He said that the
mantra there, when a job was finished, was: "Good enough for
government work."

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Eric Chevalier]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:10:03 GMT,
"Lynn Coffelt" > wrote:

>"Pat Carpenter" > wrote in message
...
>> >Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
>live in the real world.
>> >
>> >- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>>
>> http://www.skygod.com/quotes/
>
>Oh, my gosh, did you really say or write that, Mary?

You should wander over to Google and take a look at the complete
message containing that quote:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=SHAFER.96Jan16140302%40ferhino.dfrf.na sa.gov&oe=UTF-8

It's one of the most articulate discussions about risk that I've come
across, and has broad applicability to many situations in life, way
beyond flight test!

Eric

--
Eric Chevalier
www.tulsagrammer.com

[[email protected]]

Eric Chevalier > wrote:

>It's one of the most articulate discussions about risk that I've come
>across, and has broad applicability to many situations in life, way
>beyond flight test!
>
>Eric

Yes it's pretty good...however you might try asking her about her
views on Pilot Error. You may have noticed that she studiously
ignores the subject even though I give her a little jab about it
occasionally...amazingly she thinks that there's no such
thing...something to the effect that any mistake that one makes
was an error in aircraft design which misled him into making that
error...WooHoo...
--

-Gord.

[Kerryn Offord]

" wrote:
>
> Eric Chevalier > wrote:
>
> >It's one of the most articulate discussions about risk that I've come
> >across, and has broad applicability to many situations in life, way
> >beyond flight test!
> >
> >Eric
>
> Yes it's pretty good...however you might try asking her about her
> views on Pilot Error. You may have noticed that she studiously
> ignores the subject even though I give her a little jab about it
> occasionally...amazingly she thinks that there's no such
> thing...something to the effect that any mistake that one makes
> was an error in aircraft design which misled him into making that
> error...WooHoo...
> --
>
> -Gord.

Saying the cause was "Pilot error" is a bit like blaming the goalie for
letting in a goal.... (thinking mainly soccer here)... what about the
other 10 men who are supposed to be out their, especially the 2-4 other
defenders....

[[email protected]]

Kerryn Offord > wrote:

>
>
" wrote:
>>
>> Eric Chevalier > wrote:
>>
>> >It's one of the most articulate discussions about risk that I've come
>> >across, and has broad applicability to many situations in life, way
>> >beyond flight test!
>> >
>> >Eric
>>
>> Yes it's pretty good...however you might try asking her about her
>> views on Pilot Error. You may have noticed that she studiously
>> ignores the subject even though I give her a little jab about it
>> occasionally...amazingly she thinks that there's no such
>> thing...something to the effect that any mistake that one makes
>> was an error in aircraft design which misled him into making that
>> error...WooHoo...
>> --
>>
>> -Gord.
>
>Saying the cause was "Pilot error" is a bit like blaming the goalie for
>letting in a goal.... (thinking mainly soccer here)... what about the
>other 10 men who are supposed to be out their, especially the 2-4 other
>defenders....

But isn't that the point?, those other defenders can stop most of
the 'possible goals' and that leaves the Goalie to seal off the
remainder. Now, if he makes no error then he 'will' seal off that
last one, but if, on the other hand, he makes an error then isn't
it fair to call it 'Goalie Error? (or the soccer equivalent).

Pilots aren't gods, (none of the hundreds that I've worked
closely with were anyway). Lots are great guys, some are turds,
just like the average human.

I suspect that some handsome devil might have convinced her
otherwise at some point. :)
--

-Gord.

[Kerryn Offord]

" wrote:
>
> Kerryn Offord > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> " wrote:
> >>
> >> Eric Chevalier > wrote:
> >>
> >> >It's one of the most articulate discussions about risk that I've come
> >> >across, and has broad applicability to many situations in life, way
> >> >beyond flight test!
> >> >
> >> >Eric
> >>
> >> Yes it's pretty good...however you might try asking her about her
> >> views on Pilot Error. You may have noticed that she studiously
> >> ignores the subject even though I give her a little jab about it
> >> occasionally...amazingly she thinks that there's no such
> >> thing...something to the effect that any mistake that one makes
> >> was an error in aircraft design which misled him into making that
> >> error...WooHoo...
> >> --
> >>
> >> -Gord.
> >
> >Saying the cause was "Pilot error" is a bit like blaming the goalie for
> >letting in a goal.... (thinking mainly soccer here)... what about the
> >other 10 men who are supposed to be out their, especially the 2-4 other
> >defenders....
>
> But isn't that the point?, those other defenders can stop most of
> the 'possible goals' and that leaves the Goalie to seal off the
> remainder. Now, if he makes no error then he 'will' seal off that
> last one, but if, on the other hand, he makes an error then isn't
> it fair to call it 'Goalie Error? (or the soccer equivalent).

But when the defenders leave the goalie totally exposed against two+
attackers... that's not goalie error, even diving the wrong way to
defend a penalty isn't goalie error...

What about the design effort that put the controls for the landing gear
and flaps side by side (at least in the A1 Skyraider and some earlier
bombers (B25?))... there were a few occasions of "pilot error" where the
pilot activated the wrong control...... that's why later aircraft had a
"wing" for flaps, and a "wheel" for landing gear...

And then there was the case of the Thai Airways pilot who tried to take
off on the wrong runway (during a storm)... where were all the checks to
make sure he was on the right runway (IIRC he ran into some earth moving
machines just prior to takeoff with heavy loss of life

Now goalie error.

Did you see the one when the goalie swung a boot at a throw in (from his
own side), missed it, and rushed back reaching the ball as it rolled
over the line (into the goal)...

[Tarver Engineering]

"Kerryn Offord" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> " wrote:
> >
> > Kerryn Offord > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > " wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Eric Chevalier > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >It's one of the most articulate discussions about risk that I've
come
> > >> >across, and has broad applicability to many situations in life, way
> > >> >beyond flight test!
> > >> >
> > >> >Eric
> > >>
> > >> Yes it's pretty good...however you might try asking her about her
> > >> views on Pilot Error. You may have noticed that she studiously
> > >> ignores the subject even though I give her a little jab about it
> > >> occasionally...amazingly she thinks that there's no such
> > >> thing...something to the effect that any mistake that one makes
> > >> was an error in aircraft design which misled him into making that
> > >> error...WooHoo...
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> -Gord.
> > >
> > >Saying the cause was "Pilot error" is a bit like blaming the goalie for
> > >letting in a goal.... (thinking mainly soccer here)... what about the
> > >other 10 men who are supposed to be out their, especially the 2-4 other
> > >defenders....
> >
> > But isn't that the point?, those other defenders can stop most of
> > the 'possible goals' and that leaves the Goalie to seal off the
> > remainder. Now, if he makes no error then he 'will' seal off that
> > last one, but if, on the other hand, he makes an error then isn't
> > it fair to call it 'Goalie Error? (or the soccer equivalent).
>
> But when the defenders leave the goalie totally exposed against two+
> attackers... that's not goalie error, even diving the wrong way to
> defend a penalty isn't goalie error...

It all depends on perspective, for a "hiuman factors" engineer, the designe
could always have been improved. On the other hand, I agree with Gord, than
no SR 71 engineer would ever write that.

John P. Tarver, MS/PE