Next step(s) in purchase?

[Douglas Paterson]

Hello, R.A.O.!

I'm returning to the well, hoping to continue a trend. If you recall (or
care to research) the messages I've posted over the last year or so, you'll
find I've been getting some great advice and stimulating discussion on
selecting an airplane (my first). After considering all inputs and my own
desires & mission, I've decided to go for... the TB-20 Socata "Trinidad."

So, for the last several months, I've been electronically kicking tires of
the various examples I've seen online. I've been exercising the patience
everyone here agreed I'd need (about the only thing in wide agreement!), but
now I've seen one that I'm ready to take the next step(s) on (read:
actually spend money on travel, pre-buy, etc.). I hardly know where to
begin, so I'm hoping to continue on the goodwill of the group. (Besides, I
hear Jay is throwing a hell of a party at OSH, so I'd better hurry up & pay
the cover charge! :) )

Here are the things I "think" I need to do, in what I "think" is appropriate
chronological order. Process stops at any step that results in a no-go.
Comments, changes, additions, deletions--all are welcome, please!!

In progress:
1) Gather as much info about make/model as I can & refine desired
traits--ongoing
2) Find one for sale meeting desires & contact seller, get further info,
etc.--ongoing
3) Initiate financing--started today (HEL seems best, but any contrary
opinions here?)
------------------
Next:
4) Contact AOPA buyer services--"soon"; not sure what they can/can't do for
me
5) Get specific insurance quotes--"soon"; I have a general idea from
earlier quote, I just need to update them
------------------
To follow: (here's where I'm really lost)
6) Arrange for pre-buy--ASAP, but at least a week or so (?) before
traveling
7) Travel--when ready on both ends
7a) Inspect logs
7b) Pre-buy inspection
7c) Test flight--who pays for this? any specific maneuvers, etc., to
run through?
7d) Negotiate price--I have NO idea how to do this, any hints
appreciated!
8) Arrange for escrow--ASAP; can/should I do this ahead of #7??
9) Get 5 hours time-in-type dual (insurance rqmt, and not a bad idea in my
book anyway)--considering options here, hoping I can find someplace to do
this ahead of time
10) Fund escrow, close escrow, fly home! :)

As I say, this is my impression right now--I'm sure there's any number of
improvements that can be made. Bring 'em on!

Additional questions:
#6: Anyone w/ advice on whom to approach for the pre-buy? Airplane is in
New England region (Hartford, CT).
#9: Any advice/suggestions on where I can do this? I live in Colorado
Springs; I'm willing to travel if I must, but closer is better (read:
cheaper). Perhaps somewhere near Hartford would work well, since I may be
traveling there anyway. Note, this point really isn't tied to this specific
airplane, since it will carry to whatever plane I finally go with (unless I
change my target).

Thanks for any help!
--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Vaughn Simon]

"Douglas Paterson" > wrote in message
...

9) Get 5 hours time-in-type dual (insurance rqmt, and not a bad idea in my
book anyway)--considering options here, hoping I can find someplace to do
this ahead of time
10) Fund escrow, close escrow, fly home! :)

Rather than bothering to get the five hours in advance, just take a local CFI
with you for the trip. Yes, it costs money, but you get dual use out of the
cross-country hours, a second set of eyes for your pre-buy walkaround and
paperwork check, and backup on that unfamiliar cross country flight in an
unfamiliar aircraft.

Vaughn

[Montblack]

("Douglas Paterson" wrote)
(Besides, I hear Jay is throwing a hell of a party at OSH, so I'd better
hurry up & pay the cover charge! :) )


From reliable sources: Jay throws a hell of a Pre-OSH party at a certain Inn
(@ IOW).

.....of which I have yet to see one left-over brat, BTW!

In the N40 (@ OSH) Jay has been relegated to walking around with a beer in
his hand - greeting guests. We'd call him "The Greeter," but that one is
used by Wally-World.

So, Jay's N40 title is: "Host"
(Job description: beer - some sitting - much schmoozing - watch
departures - beer - fud - beer - schmooze - sit - watch departures -
schmooze - pictures - beer - sit - fud - beer - schmooze - snooze)

Jim Burns and Montblack have promoted themselves to "Assistant Hosts" for
this years N40 Party.


Montblack
"So it's ...beer, fud, sit, fud, beer...?"
"No, no, no! You forgot schmooze. Again, from the top."

"This is harder than it looks. Let's see, ...beer, fud, sit, schmooze...?"
"Better. Again."

[dave]

Doug,
Good for you!

I would double check the insurance cost and the insurance company's
checkout requirements before going further. My insurance company
increased both between my initial informal quote and when I finally
bought my bonanza. Just unlucky timing.

When I sold my citabria I simply flew the plane to an airport convenient
to both me and the seller and had a friend pick me up there. The buyer
paid with a certified check. It was only a couple of hundred miles
away so it was an easy trip. When I bought my bonanza I paid the
seller's costs to fly the plane out to me and for his return ticket back
to Utah. You may want to explore those options. I did try to find a
local CFI to fly out with me to pick up the airplane but I couldn't find
one with enough Bo time that was available for a few days. Your
insurance company may want to know that your instructor has time in the
TB20. Talk to your insurance company about that. If something bad
happens and the insurance company determines that the CFI wasn't
qualified it could get ugly. I also tried to get a Bo check out prior
to getting the airplane but it's tough to find places that rent high
performance airplanes.

You really need an independent third party to look at the airplane,
particularly since it's complex and relatively uncommon. Before I
bought the Bo I hired an experienced mechanic recommended by the
american bonanza society to fly out and inspect the airplane. He helped
me immensely but even he missed a few items. Maybe the folks at the
Socota.org website can recommend someone that is a TB20 expert.

Make sure that the price you're paying is realistic. If it's too cheap
there's probably a bad reason for it - not always but be wary.

Get the AOPA title search done early - they can turn it around in a day
if the records are available. Unfortunately, for many different
reasons, the records may not be available. This happened to me on one
airplane I was considering so don't wait until the last minute.

I think I wrote about this when you first posted about buying - try to
find an airplane with the avionics you want already installed. The
return on avionics installations is peanuts. I was told that when I
first started shopping for a complex airplane and I found that it is true.

Lastly - don't be afraid to spend money upfront on title searches,
inspections, etc. In the long run, it's the best money you'll spend on
the airplane.

Dave
M35

Douglas Paterson wrote:
> Hello, R.A.O.!
>
> I'm returning to the well, hoping to continue a trend. If you recall (or
> care to research) the messages I've posted over the last year or so, you'll
> find I've been getting some great advice and stimulating discussion on
> selecting an airplane (my first). After considering all inputs and my own
> desires & mission, I've decided to go for... the TB-20 Socata "Trinidad."
>
> So, for the last several months, I've been electronically kicking tires of
> the various examples I've seen online. I've been exercising the patience
> everyone here agreed I'd need (about the only thing in wide agreement!), but
> now I've seen one that I'm ready to take the next step(s) on (read:
> actually spend money on travel, pre-buy, etc.). I hardly know where to
> begin, so I'm hoping to continue on the goodwill of the group. (Besides, I
> hear Jay is throwing a hell of a party at OSH, so I'd better hurry up & pay
> the cover charge! :) )
>
> Here are the things I "think" I need to do, in what I "think" is appropriate
> chronological order. Process stops at any step that results in a no-go.
> Comments, changes, additions, deletions--all are welcome, please!!
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I've decided to go for... the TB-20 Socata "Trinidad."

Which we all expect to see at the HOPS N40 Party in OSH!

:-)

> 2) Find one for sale meeting desires & contact seller, get further info,
> etc.--ongoing

You've picked a rare bird, so your choices are going to be limited.
Luckily, the market is in the dumpster, so whatever is available
should be cheap!

> 3) Initiate financing--started today (HEL seems best, but any contrary
> opinions here?)

Contact (I'm not kidding) First National Bank of Oskaloosa, in little
Oskaloosa, Iowa. This bank is run by pilots, and they specialize in
aircraft financing. Ask for Mary Anderson. Tell her I sent ya her
way. Contact info is here:
https://www.fnbmidwest.com/
(Click on aircraft financing...)

I've had two loans from them, and never set foot in the bank. You do
not have to live anywhere near Iowa to take advantage of their
hospitality.

> 7d) Negotiate price--I have NO idea how to do this, any hints
> appreciated!

The market is dead. Use VRef tp determine approximate value, but take
it with a grain of salt. If the asking price is at VRef levels, I'd
offer 20% under any advertised price, to start. A lot of guys have
been trying to sell their planes for many months, and may be ready to
accept ANY offer.

> 9) Get 5 hours time-in-type dual (insurance rqmt, and not a bad idea in my
> book anyway)--considering options here, hoping I can find someplace to do
> this ahead of time

Not necessary, and very difficult given the type of aircraft you're
seeking.

> 10) Fund escrow, close escrow, fly home! :)

Now THAT is the fun part!

> #6: Anyone w/ advice on whom to approach for the pre-buy? Airplane is in
> New England region (Hartford, CT).

This will tell the tale. If the seller isn't flexible on where the
pre-buy is done, run, do not walk from the table.

I know a lot of guys don't want strange mechanics ripping into their
plane, so let the seller help you select the shop. Get him to
recommend three shops nearby, under the presumption that he can't
bribe EVERYONE to lie about his plane. Pick one, and BE THERE WHEN IT
HAPPENS, if at all possible.

A remote, un-witnessed pre-buy inspection is just asking for trouble,
IMHO.

> #9: Any advice/suggestions on where I can do this? I live in Colorado
> Springs; I'm willing to travel if I must, but closer is better (read:
> cheaper). Perhaps somewhere near Hartford would work well, since I may be
> traveling there anyway. Note, this point really isn't tied to this specific
> airplane, since it will carry to whatever plane I finally go with (unless I
> change my target).

If you were buying a Skylane, you would have no troubles. Finding a
Socata is going to make it necessary for you to fly -- perhaps quickly
-- anywhere in the country. (Data point: We fly everywhere, a lot,
and I don't recall ever SEEING one anywhere, outside of Oshkosh.)

Good luck! Keep us posted.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Stewart]

Douglas Paterson wrote:
> Hello, R.A.O.!
>
> I'm returning to the well, hoping to continue a trend. If you recall (or
> care to research) the messages I've posted over the last year or so, you'll
> find I've been getting some great advice and stimulating discussion on
> selecting an airplane (my first). After considering all inputs and my own
> desires & mission, I've decided to go for... the TB-20 Socata "Trinidad."
>
> So, for the last several months, I've been electronically kicking tires of
> the various examples I've seen online. I've been exercising the patience
> everyone here agreed I'd need (about the only thing in wide agreement!), but
> now I've seen one that I'm ready to take the next step(s) on (read:
> actually spend money on travel, pre-buy, etc.). I hardly know where to
> begin, so I'm hoping to continue on the goodwill of the group. (Besides, I
> hear Jay is throwing a hell of a party at OSH, so I'd better hurry up & pay
> the cover charge! :) )
>
> Here are the things I "think" I need to do, in what I "think" is appropriate
> chronological order. Process stops at any step that results in a no-go.
> Comments, changes, additions, deletions--all are welcome, please!!

I didn't see any mention of where you're
gonna keep your new plane. In some places,
there's no hangers and no tie-downs available
and it might pay to start shopping early.

[Douglas Paterson]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
>
> Rather than bothering to get the five hours in advance, just take a local
> CFI with you for the trip. Yes, it costs money, but you get dual use out
> of the cross-country hours, a second set of eyes for your pre-buy
> walkaround and paperwork check, and backup on that unfamiliar cross
> country flight in an unfamiliar aircraft.
>


I'd considered that--and, it's still a fall-back option--but part of my
written-in-smoke plan is to build a mini-vacation around the trip home,
which would at best make it VERY expensive, but more likely wouldn't work
for someone else's schedule (let alone inclination to put up with not only
me, but my friends & family!).

On the pre-buy walkaround, paperwork, etc.: super point. Adding that to my
calculations....

--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Douglas Paterson]

"dave" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I would double check the insurance cost and the insurance company's
> checkout requirements before going further. My insurance company
> increased both between my initial informal quote and when I finally bought
> my bonanza. Just unlucky timing.
>

Excellent point. I'm sure I'm in for any number of financial "surprises"
like that, but forewarned is forearmed as they say. I will do so!

> When I sold my citabria I simply flew the plane to an airport convenient
> to both me and the seller and had a friend pick me up there. The buyer
> paid with a certified check. It was only a couple of hundred miles away
> so it was an easy trip. When I bought my bonanza I paid the seller's
> costs to fly the plane out to me and for his return ticket back to Utah.
> You may want to explore those options. I did try to find a local CFI to
> fly out with me to pick up the airplane but I couldn't find one with
> enough Bo time that was available for a few days. Your insurance company
> may want to know that your instructor has time in the TB20. Talk to your
> insurance company about that. If something bad happens and the insurance
> company determines that the CFI wasn't qualified it could get ugly. I
> also tried to get a Bo check out prior to getting the airplane but it's
> tough to find places that rent high performance airplanes.

Copy all. All are valid considerations--but, at the end of the day, I've
got to say I'm really looking forward to flying MY :) airplane back to MY
location. You know??

I'll add the CFI rqmts question to the insurance discussion, thanks. Via
the Socata group, I've found several locations that rent Trinidads (with,
presumably, CFIs available for checkout purposes)--rather than spend the
money to get someone to join me on the trip or to fly MY :) plane to me, I'd
sooner pay to fly myself to one of these locations and get the hours. One
of them is in White Plains, NY, which is close to both my prospect and my
family.... We'll see.
>
> [other good info snipped]

Thanks, Dave--precisely the sort of info I'm looking for!

--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Douglas Paterson]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> I've decided to go for... the TB-20 Socata "Trinidad."
>
> Which we all expect to see at the HOPS N40 Party in OSH!
>

Love to! Even if I'm a bona fide owner by then, it may be tough this
year--I'm already committed to Sturgis, and the close timing makes it
tricky, both work and $$-wise.

>
> You've picked a rare bird, so your choices are going to be limited.
> Luckily, the market is in the dumpster, so whatever is available
> should be cheap!

Relative term, of course--but, I've seen asking prices dropping over the
year or so I've been looking, even on specific airplanes that aren't moving.
Speaking from a prospective buyer's position--I sure hope you're right! :)

>
>> 3) Initiate financing--started today (HEL seems best, but any contrary
>> opinions here?)
>
> Contact (I'm not kidding) First National Bank of Oskaloosa, in little
> Oskaloosa, Iowa. This bank is run by pilots, and they specialize in
> aircraft financing. Ask for Mary Anderson. Tell her I sent ya her
> way. Contact info is here:
> https://www.fnbmidwest.com/
> (Click on aircraft financing...)
>

Will do--thanks for the tip!

> [other good stuff snipped]

Thanks, Jay. Lot's of good info, exactly what I need.

--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Douglas Paterson]

"Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> I didn't see any mention of where you're
> gonna keep your new plane. In some places,
> there's no hangers and no tie-downs available
> and it might pay to start shopping early.

Tie-downs are no problem. Hangars are tight, but can be had. I'm waiting
to pull the trigger on a lease until I'm at least traveling to see a plane.
I almost signed one a year ago, and am glad I didn't (leaving nearly $3,500
in my pocket). If the bird has to sit outside for a couple of months (the
max turnover I've seen around here), I'll live.

Thanks for the thought!

--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[dave]

Douglas Paterson wrote:
> Copy all. All are valid considerations--but, at the end of the day, I've
> got to say I'm really looking forward to flying MY :) airplane back to MY
> location. You know??


Doug,
Not only do I know, I had already figured out the route from Utah back
to Philly about 100 times. It really bugged me that I couldn't do it
but getting a qualified instructor, good weather and a few days off from
just wasn't happening for me. Enjoy the ride.

Dave
M35

[Grumman 46U]

On Tue, 22 May 2007 22:41:42 -0600, "Douglas Paterson"
> wrote:

>Hello, R.A.O.!
>
>I'm returning to the well, hoping to continue a trend. If you recall (or
>care to research) the messages I've posted over the last year or so, you'll
>find I've been getting some great advice and stimulating discussion on
>selecting an airplane (my first). After considering all inputs and my own
>desires & mission, I've decided to go for... the TB-20 Socata "Trinidad."
>
<snip>


From the standpoint of one who went through your process, culminating
in a purchase in February, it appears to me that you pretty well have
your ducks in a row. I also bought a rarer bird, a Grumman Cheetah,
making the search quite similar to yours.

As I indicated in an earlier posting about that purchase, the ability
to remain as clinical as possible is your biggest asset. The more you
research, the more you know, and knowledge is power. By the time you
get to negotiations, you should know most Trinidads on the market and
how the one you're looking at compares.

The pre-buy seems to me to be the key to your deal. I second the idea
of getting the owner to suggest three nearby candidates, then
selecting the one you want. We used to use this process in arbitration
matters, and it usually works well.

The idea of taking a CFI with you to fly home is a good one. I did
that and am very grateful I did. Not only did I have the benefit of a
Grumman expert's knowledge, but my insurance reflected that
experience. I also did my BFR in the airplane a couple days after
purchase, and that was a great experience.

Just a few ideas. Best of luck on your search. Please buy soon so
you can start adding your AMUs to the pot; it will make us all feel
better.


Michael

[Douglas Paterson]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Contact (I'm not kidding) First National Bank of Oskaloosa, in little
> Oskaloosa, Iowa. This bank is run by pilots, and they specialize in
> aircraft financing. Ask for Mary Anderson. Tell her I sent ya her
> way. Contact info is here:
> https://www.fnbmidwest.com/
> (Click on aircraft financing...)
>
> I've had two loans from them, and never set foot in the bank. You do
> not have to live anywhere near Iowa to take advantage of their
> hospitality.
>


Jay:

I talked to Mary today. Super nice, super knowledgeable, as you said. I
was very impressed with the quote they gave me--more than 1% lower than any
other personal loan I've found. At the end of the day, though, it can't
compete with a HEL, due to the tax advantages (this is personal use for
me--best I'll be able to do is very occasional business travel, the lion's
share of expenses will NOT be tax deductible for me; tacking the finance
charges to my house and thereby making them deductible is the one exception
I've spotted on that).

To anyone looking for an aircraft loan: I highly second Jay's
recommendation. I haven't actually entered into commerce with them, but
they were very pleasant to talk to, they definitely "speak airplane," and
they seem to have the best rates going.

Thanks again for the pointer!
--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Jay Honeck]

> I talked to Mary today. Super nice, super knowledgeable, as you said. I
> was very impressed with the quote they gave me--more than 1% lower than any
> other personal loan I've found.

Ain't she sweet? She (and all the guys at First National Midwest, in
Oskaloosa) are *all* about airplanes. They even rent a booth in one
of the big exhibit hangars at OSH every year (and you'll see Mary
there for 8 hours every day, sweating along with the rest of us) --
THAT is how committed they are to doing aircraft loans.

> At the end of the day, though, it can't
> compete with a HEL

Yeah, that's usually the best deal possible, if you're not buying the
plane for your business.

> Thanks again for the pointer!

No problem! Let us know how things go...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Douglas Paterson]

"Douglas Paterson" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I'll add the CFI rqmts question to the insurance discussion, thanks. Via
> the Socata group, I've found several locations that rent Trinidads (with,
> presumably, CFIs available for checkout purposes

....and it gets better! Turns out there's a club/flight school up in Denver
(BJC)--less than 75 miles from here--that just got a TB-20. They take daily
and/or monthly memberships, so I can "join" without "buying in," and take my
instruction locally.

Serendipitous! :)

--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:

> Jim Burns and Montblack have promoted themselves to "Assistant Hosts" for
> this years N40 Party.

....and Jack is left out in the cold to fend for himself, eh? Sheesh,
one too many cracks about MontBlack and I'm yesterday's news :-)

No Mike's Lemonade for you!

Or...do I just need to self promote myself to "Assistant Host #3"?

Jay - Chief host and grand Poobah
Jim - Chief "Pointer" (points to Jay, points to beer, points to food,
etc. when asked appropriate questions)
Paul - Chief fud/beer errand boy
Jack - Chief taste tester for any and all Mike's Lemonade. Can also
substitute for Jim in the pointing department. Can also assist in
beer/fud runs.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Douglas Paterson wrote:
Congrats on being ready to pull the ownership trigger. Been there/done
that and just getting ready to plunk down cash on an airplane takes a
lot of time and effort.

> 7) Travel--when ready on both ends
> 7a) Inspect logs
> 7b) Pre-buy inspection
> 7c) Test flight--who pays for this? any specific maneuvers, etc., to
> run through?
I wouldn't hesitate to pay for it yourself. In the grand scheme of
things, it's a nit. Offer to pay...maybe the owner will say "Nah, it's
on me". Either way, cost of fuel for the ride is small. Do as many
flight maneuvers as you can, take it around the patch for a few
landings, work all the avionics possible, etc.

> 7d) Negotiate price--I have NO idea how to do this, any hints
> appreciated!

It's like buying a house. We made an offer contingent upon a successful
pre-buy. We worded it such that the owner would pay for any
airworthiness issues and we'd negotiate any other squawks. Since the
bird just came out of annual, all airworthiness issues had been
resolved. The squawk list was short and minor so we opted to deal with
them. It's tough to make an offer before seeing the plane. In our
case, it was pretty clean and I had a chance to talk to the shop that
did the annual. We offered approx. 10% less than asking price, seller
countered a tad higher and we accepted, conditional on the pre-buy. We
then sent the seller a deposit.


> 9) Get 5 hours time-in-type dual (insurance rqmt, and not a bad idea in my
> book anyway)--considering options here, hoping I can find someplace to do
> this ahead of time

Ahead of time is a good idea as well as the other suggestion about
taking a CFI with you. We had to when we bought the Arrow as two of us
did not have any complex time. The flight back counted towards the 10
hours dual instruction we each needed before being able to fly solo.

> #9: Any advice/suggestions on where I can do this? I live in Colorado
> Springs; I'm willing to travel if I must, but closer is better (read:
> cheaper). Perhaps somewhere near Hartford would work well, since I may be
> traveling there anyway. Note, this point really isn't tied to this specific
> airplane, since it will carry to whatever plane I finally go with (unless I
> change my target).

If you find a candidate plane somewhere, post here and maybe someone can
take a drive/flight to check it out for you. Jay H. did so for us on a
candidate that we opted not to buy...but it was great! Jay provided
*tons* of pictures as well as an independent assessment of the plane and
seller.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Douglas Paterson]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
>> 7) Travel--when ready on both ends
>> 7a) Inspect logs
>> 7b) Pre-buy inspection
>> 7c) Test flight--who pays for this? any specific maneuvers, etc.,
>> to run through?
>> 7d) Negotiate price--I have NO idea how to do this, any hints
>> appreciated!
>
> It's like buying a house. We made an offer contingent upon a successful
> pre-buy. We worded it such that the owner would pay for any airworthiness
> issues and we'd negotiate any other squawks. Since the bird just came out
> of annual, all airworthiness issues had been resolved. The squawk list
> was short and minor so we opted to deal with them. It's tough to make an
> offer before seeing the plane. In our case, it was pretty clean and I had
> a chance to talk to the shop that did the annual. We offered approx. 10%
> less than asking price, seller countered a tad higher and we accepted,
> conditional on the pre-buy. We then sent the seller a deposit.

Jack, thanks for the advice. Sounds like you're telling me I'm doing it out
of order: you had a purchase agreement (presumably including selling price)
*before* the pre-buy? I see some obvious advantages to that--if there's no
agreement, you don't spend any money on inspections, etc. (much like when
one buys a house). However, it seems to be impractical, unless I make a
sight-unseen offer. How to weigh those??

Perhaps split the difference? Have a purchase agreement (with a blank
selling price) ready to go when I look at the plane/logs, write in a price &
present it to the seller after I inspect but before the pre-buy? If we
can't come to an agreement, I'm still out travel costs, but I save the
pre-buy.... Or should I be considering making the offer sight-unseen,
perhaps with some sort of "subject to inspection" clause?? I have a good
feeling about the one I'm looking at, the seller seems a straight shooter,
I've talked to his mechanic (annual just done in Apr) and others familiar
with him/his plane....

I'm sure this is easier the second (& subsequent) time around--but I'm
working harder on this than I did to buy my first house!! :) Thanks for
the help/advice....
--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
>> Jim Burns and Montblack have promoted themselves to "Assistant Hosts" for
>> this years N40 Party.

> Or...do I just need to self promote myself to "Assistant Host #3"?

We're sorry, but those positions are currently full. You will have to make
up your own title.

> Paul - Chief fud/beer errand boy

WTF?? ...."Errand Boy"


Montblack
I'll retrieve, I do not "fetch" :-)

[Blanche]

Montblack wrote:

> ("Jack Allison" wrote)
>
>>>Jim Burns and Montblack have promoted themselves to "Assistant Hosts" for
>>>this years N40 Party.
>
>>Or...do I just need to self promote myself to "Assistant Host #3"?
>
> We're sorry, but those positions are currently full. You will have to make
> up your own title.
>
>>Paul - Chief fud/beer errand boy
>
> WTF?? ...."Errand Boy"

> Montblack
> I'll retrieve, I do not "fetch" :-)

I have two titles I'm rather proud of. The first, is "Head Gopher & Flunkey"
When I had a trip to the ER many years ago (fell off my bike) they asked
where I was employed and what I did.

Years later, the hospital *still* has that down on my records.

The other title is "Entertainment Director, SIGBOOZE". In the computer
industry, a SIG is a Special Interest Group. For my professional
society, there are 40-odd SIGs. Back in the 80s we created SIGBOOZE.
And yes, I have a name tag and everything (even our logo, a martini
glass)

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:

> WTF?? ...."Errand Boy"
>
>
> Montblack
> I'll retrieve, I do not "fetch" :-)
>
>
Jack: "Jim, we're getting low on beer and fud"

Jim (pointing in the direction of Pic & Save): "Paul, fetch us some more
beer and fud. Oh, and don't forget the Mike's Lemonade, Jack just drank
the last one...again!"

Paul: "Woof"...gets in the airplane of minivans and drives off. Arrives
20 minutes later with more beer, fud, and Mike's Lemonade.
Jay: "It's great being the Grand Poobah...nothing to do but sit around
eating and drinking"

Hey, at least "Errand boy" was relative to fud/beer. :-)
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Douglas Paterson wrote:
> Jack, thanks for the advice. Sounds like you're telling me I'm doing it out
> of order: you had a purchase agreement (presumably including selling price)
> *before* the pre-buy? I see some obvious advantages to that--if there's no
> agreement, you don't spend any money on inspections, etc. (much like when
> one buys a house). However, it seems to be impractical, unless I make a
> sight-unseen offer. How to weigh those??

I wouldn't say you're doing it out of order Doug. The way I see it,
situations are going to be different depending on the seller. Add to
that your overall comfort level as a buyer in taking appropriate steps
in what you feel to be the right order and I'd say there are many ways
to skin the proverbial cat.

In our case, we talked to the owner (Dad living in NC), the daughter who
flew the plane (living in CO), and the shop that did the maintenance.
We also bought the package of info. from AOPA that contained all of the
337s, title search (may have been a separate item from AOPA for that,
can't remember). Based on all of the conversations we had and the
paperwork we could see, we felt pretty good about negotiating a selling
price contingent upon a satisfactory pre-buy. One partner was ready to
buy sight unseen. One other and myself wanted to eyeball the plane and
fly it so we headed to CO. We figured the most we'd be out was the trip
costs to CO plus whatever the shop was going to charge us for their
time.

Things moved fast for us. From the day I received an e-mail from
Trade-A-Plane with the add to the day we flew out of CO, it was a
whopping two weeks. We had many ducks lined up beforehand due to two
previous deals falling apart. Of course, it helped that two of us were
working on tracking down info. and talking to folks.

> Perhaps split the difference? Have a purchase agreement (with a blank
> selling price) ready to go when I look at the plane/logs, write in a price &
> present it to the seller after I inspect but before the pre-buy?

This sounds like a good compromise.

> I have a good
> feeling about the one I'm looking at, the seller seems a straight shooter,
> I've talked to his mechanic (annual just done in Apr) and others familiar
> with him/his plane....

All good things. You really can't get enough of this kind of stuff.
Still, it can all come apart in the end. Sort of like buying a house.
Hey, I've heard that before :-) Seriously though, one thing I learned
through our buying process was that if something started smelling funny,
it was well worth walking away and waiting for the next plane to come along.

> I'm sure this is easier the second (& subsequent) time around--but I'm
> working harder on this than I did to buy my first house!! :) Thanks for
> the help/advice....

I'll keep you posted on that score. Still on airplane #1 in life right
now. I have no intentions of changing that anytime soon.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)