Who plays golf at Nellis?

[ArtKramr]

There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis call the
shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the CO..And
nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You figure it
out.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis call the
> shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the CO..And
> nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You figure it
> out.

I think you need to talk to the CO. If he's the base commander, then he knows
all about the Flag briefing and the golf course slides with the flight path that crews
WILL fly to avoid the golfers who report every infraction.

No Flag gets underway without that briefing. I've been to about 4 of them (green
and red).

[Jughead]

"S. Sampson" > wrote in
:

> I think you need to talk to the CO. If he's the base commander, then
> he knows all about the Flag briefing and the golf course slides with
> the flight path that crews WILL fly to avoid the golfers who report
> every infraction.
>
> No Flag gets underway without that briefing. I've been to about 4 of
> them (green and red).

Then why not just move the golf course? The base is there primarily for the
purpose of flying airplanes. The golf course is there for MWR purposes.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
>From: Jughead
>Date: 7/20/03 5:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"S. Sampson" > wrote in
:
>
>> I think you need to talk to the CO. If he's the base commander, then
>> he knows all about the Flag briefing and the golf course slides with
>> the flight path that crews WILL fly to avoid the golfers who report
>> every infraction.
>>
>> No Flag gets underway without that briefing. I've been to about 4 of
>> them (green and red).
>
>Then why not just move the golf course? The base is there primarily for the
>purpose of flying airplanes. The golf course is there for MWR purposes.

Move the golf course?. I got a better idea. If the golfers don't like the
flying they can go play golf elsewhere. This is a military airfield, not a
country club.I am at Nellis three days a week shooting skeet at the gun club.
And no one makes any allowances for us. Nor do we ask for any The flying goes
on no matter what, and anybody who doesn't like it can go elsewhere. And good
riddance.



Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"Jughead" > wrote
> "S. Sampson" > wrote
>
> > I think you need to talk to the CO. If he's the base commander, then
> > he knows all about the Flag briefing and the golf course slides with
> > the flight path that crews WILL fly to avoid the golfers who report
> > every infraction.
> >
> > No Flag gets underway without that briefing. I've been to about 4 of
> > them (green and red).
>
> Then why not just move the golf course? The base is there primarily for the
> purpose of flying airplanes. The golf course is there for MWR purposes.

It's not the base golf course. I think there is 3 of them downrange from the
southern departure. I might have the names wrong, but I believe they are
Desert Rose, Desert Pines, and Stallion Mountain...

I've been to all three, and there's not even any dark complexion white boys
in there. If you even look tribal or Mex, you might as well turn around at
the 7-11...

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
>From: Jughead
>Date: 7/20/03 11:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Xns93BEEE1C74D0FInsaneZane

>Wasn't Nellis far from any inhabited or even developed areas at one time?
>I guess that's even more reason to tell those spoiled and swank golfers
>to **** off and stop complaining about the jets.

I think they should close every golf course on every military base and use the
money for greater family allowances for enlisted men. It's not right to have
men defending our country living on food stamps.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dan]

Services/MWR are no longer funded by military budget. This occured sometime
in the late 80's while my father was in. All services are now
non-appropriated funds and must be self sufficient. I'm not sure if this is
each independent facility or just that the base services program has to be
profitable. That's why I'm not paying more for a meal at the Enlisted club
than I would for a number one from Burger King.

SSgt V
RAF Lakenheath, UK


"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
> >From: Jughead
> >Date: 7/20/03 11:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <Xns93BEEE1C74D0FInsaneZane
>
> >Wasn't Nellis far from any inhabited or even developed areas at one time?
> >I guess that's even more reason to tell those spoiled and swank golfers
> >to **** off and stop complaining about the jets.
>
> I think they should close every golf course on every military base and
use the
> money for greater family allowances for enlisted men. It's not right to
have
> men defending our country living on food stamps.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> I think they should close every golf course on every military base and use the
> money for greater family allowances for enlisted men.

Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)

[buf3]

"S. Sampson" > wrote in message >...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > I think they should close every golf course on every military base and use the
> > money for greater family allowances for enlisted men.
>
> Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)

Back in the mid 70s I had to respond to a complaint by a retired USAF
golfer who claimed that a B-52 had flown over him below 500 feet near
Carswell AFB, TX. The GCA tapes showed the BUFF at 1,500 feet.

Gene Myers

[[email protected]]

(buf3) wrote:

>"S. Sampson" > wrote in message >...
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >
>> > I think they should close every golf course on every military base and use the
>> > money for greater family allowances for enlisted men.
>>
>> Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)
>
>Back in the mid 70s I had to respond to a complaint by a retired USAF
>golfer who claimed that a B-52 had flown over him below 500 feet near
>Carswell AFB, TX. The GCA tapes showed the BUFF at 1,500 feet.
>
>Gene Myers

Jeez...he musta been a tall sumbitch... :)
--

-Gord.

[BUFDRVR]

>There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis call
>the
>shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the
>CO..And
>nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You figure it
>out.

You really need to lose that over grown chip on your shoulder. The golf
courses in this discussion are *off base* courses.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/22/03 4:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis call
>>the
>>shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the
>>CO..And
>>nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You figure it
>>out.
>
>You really need to lose that over grown chip on your shoulder. The golf
>courses in this discussion are *off base* courses.
>
>
>BUFDRVR

No chip on my shoulder. I am ex-military. I support the actions of the
military whether I am on base or off base. And I don't rate golf more important
under any circumstances than military operations. It is a matter of basic
loyalty to the service. Got it now?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[John S. Shinal]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Move the golf course?. I got a better idea. If the golfers don't like the
>flying they can go play golf elsewhere. This is a military airfield, not a
>country club.I am at Nellis three days a week shooting skeet at the gun club.
>And no one makes any allowances for us.

Of course not, you guys on the skeet stations are AA
simulators.

;-D



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[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 7/22/03 4:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis
> >>call
> >>the
> >>shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the
> >>CO..And
> >>nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You
> >>figure it
> >>out.
> >
> >You really need to lose that over grown chip on your shoulder. The golf
> >courses in this discussion are *off base* courses.
> >
> >
> >BUFDRVR
>
> No chip on my shoulder. I am ex-military. I support the actions of the
> military whether I am on base or off base. And I don't rate golf more
> important
> under any circumstances than military operations. It is a matter of basic
> loyalty to the service. Got it now?

At least in today's military, Golf is important. We need it to fill in
between Foxtrot and Hotel.

[Ed Rasimus]

"S. Sampson" > wrote:

>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> I think they should close every golf course on every military base and use the
>> money for greater family allowances for enlisted men.
>
>Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)
>
Shack!

At least that's true for first term enlisted. Mid and senior NCO's are
certainly reasonably compensated today. It's not a career to get rich,
but most folks don't enter the military for that reason.

There was a time when you couldn't be married without commander
approval below the rank of E-4. That makes sense. Why would you need
food stamps if you're provided clothing, live in the barracks/dorm,
and have a meal card??


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[B2431]

Ed, suggesting enlisteds of any rank shouldn't get married without making a
similar statement about officers shows a bit of a bias. There was a time when
most officers thought of enlisteds as lesser beings (witness the periodic
letters to the Navy, Army and Air Force times where officers would write in
suggesting exactly that) and therefore should be treated differently. An
example of this was the "random" urinalysis for drug screening in the mid 70s
where the only people tested were enlisted.

My thoughts are no one should get married, let alone have children, unless they
are financially capable. This applies to officers and enlisteds as well as any
other segement of society.

The solution to the problem is to pay servicemen adequately and not deny people
their rights based soley on rank.

I would agree a large portion of first term enlisteds need some growing up to
do before marriage, but that applies also to WO 1and 2 as well as O-1,2 and 3.

Please try to show a little more respect for the people who could be trusted to
service your ejection seat but not to have a family.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

>>
>>Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)
>>
>Shack!
>
>At least that's true for first term enlisted. Mid and senior NCO's are
>certainly reasonably compensated today. It's not a career to get rich,
>but most folks don't enter the military for that reason.
>
>There was a time when you couldn't be married without commander
>approval below the rank of E-4. That makes sense. Why would you need
>food stamps if you're provided clothing, live in the barracks/dorm,
>and have a meal card??
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038
>
>
>
>
>
>

[S. Sampson]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> "S. Sampson" > wrote:
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>
> >> I think they should close every golf course on every military base and use the
> >> money for greater family allowances for enlisted men.
> >
> >Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)
> >
> Shack!
>
> At least that's true for first term enlisted. Mid and senior NCO's are
> certainly reasonably compensated today. It's not a career to get rich,
> but most folks don't enter the military for that reason.
>
> There was a time when you couldn't be married without commander
> approval below the rank of E-4. That makes sense. Why would you need
> food stamps if you're provided clothing, live in the barracks/dorm,
> and have a meal card??

Careful now, you're going to **** off the tax and spend special rights lobby...

[Thomas Schoene]

"B2431" > wrote in message

> Ed, suggesting enlisteds of any rank shouldn't get married without
> making a similar statement about officers shows a bit of a bias.

The equivalent sentiment once existed for officers as well, summed up as
follows:

"Lieutenants should not marry, Captains may marry, Majors should
marry, Colonels must marry."

This specific version I believe referred to the British Army, but the
sentiment was not unheard in the US either.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[BUFDRVR]

>No chip on my shoulder. I am ex-military. I support the actions of the
>military whether I am on base or off base.

Very good, however, departure and arrival restrictions there prove you are in
the vast minority.

>And I don't rate golf more important
>under any circumstances than military operations.

Well, enough people in that area rate golf higher and have gotten enough clout
behind them to force the base to implement serious "noise abatement
procedures". You're better off flying out of range airspace during a FLAG
exercise then busting the altitude restrictions and generating a noise
complaint over the golf courses.

>Got it now?

I always have gotten it, but do you? It appears not.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 7/23/03 7:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>There is no comparison of enlisted folks to officers, even today. I
>>probably wouldn't trust anyone below (E-6) to make a decision on
>>their own, where it involved multi-millions, or 40 peoples lives.
>
>How about 5? I trusted my life and that of my crew to anywhere between 2 and
>10
>E-3 through E-5's nearly every sortie, and after getting to know these young
>men (and a few women) I never had a worry in the world. In fact, I literally
>never worried about the condition of my jet, *ever*!
>
>
>BUFDRVR


I still think they are way underpaid. No reason to have military on food
stamps.It is demeaning and insulting. I thought Bush would fix it, but he
hasn't at all. Shame on him. Where is his sense of concern for our military?
How about taking some of that tax cut and giving it to our enlisted troops?.
They will spend it right away and help the economy more than giving it to the
rich. Rudyard Kipling was right. (sheesh)


..
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> How about taking some of that tax cut and giving it to our enlisted troops?.

The best way to solve this problem, is to make all military pay exempt
from taxes. It makes no sense to tax taxes.

[Jughead]

(BUFDRVR) wrote in
:

>>There is no comparison of enlisted folks to officers, even today. I
>>probably wouldn't trust anyone below (E-6) to make a decision on
>>their own, where it involved multi-millions, or 40 peoples lives.
>
> How about 5? I trusted my life and that of my crew to anywhere between
> 2 and 10 E-3 through E-5's nearly every sortie, and after getting to
> know these young men (and a few women) I never had a worry in the
> world. In fact, I literally never worried about the condition of my
> jet, *ever*!

As a wrench turning E-5 myself, I would like to say I appreciate your kind
words, BUF. I'll say there are definitely some 3-5 types who I feel can be
given a lot of trust to. I've also seen 6-8 types - and even some O's - who
I wouldn't trust much further than I can throw them when it comes to my own
safety. Point is, I think each individual should be treated individually -
not necessarily by what kind of rank they have.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Who plays golf at Nellis?
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/23/03 7:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> How about taking some of that tax cut and giving it to our enlisted
>troops?.
>
>The best way to solve this problem, is to make all military pay exempt
>from taxes. It makes no sense to tax taxes.
>
>
>

Agreed. How about that plus pay raises?. After all what is a soldiers life
worth? In Flanders field the poppies blow, between the crosses row on row.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Agreed. How about that plus pay raises?. After all what is a soldiers life
> worth? In Flanders field the poppies blow, between the crosses row on row.

Sure, why not! After all, we're only 6 trillion in debt.

I would hold 1000 nukes (WMD), and de-commission the rest, and convert
the money into combat pay.

[B2431]

>
>There is no comparison of enlisted folks to officers, even today. I
>probably wouldn't trust anyone below (E-6) to make a decision on
>their own, where it involved multi-millions, or 40 peoples lives. I know
>there are exceptions, but speaking generally, I think lower enlisted grades
>should have Squadron level endorsement on marriage benefits being paid.
>
>
Have you ever been in the military? What makes an O-1, 2 or 3 anymore qualified
to make such judgements than an E-4 or E-5? The college? There are officers
with no college and there are enlisteds with PhDs. Check out the regs. An E-4
is capable of doing his job with a minimal ammount of supervision. An E-5 can
be a 7 level. In other words he can sign off on safety of flight items.

Set your predjudices aside a recognize that officers are no better men than
enlisteds. The guys that fix the aircraft are E-1 - E6. Most of the wrench
benders are E-2 through E-5 and they make decisions every single day. The
multimillion dollar systems from aircraft to ICBMS are maintained extremely
well by the people you have insulted.

The other branches are similar in that regard.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Pete]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis
call
> >the
> >shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the
> >CO..And
> >nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You figure
it
> >out.
>
> You really need to lose that over grown chip on your shoulder. The golf
> courses in this discussion are *off base* courses.
>
>
> BUFDRVR

Any of you guys hear about the goose/golf course flap at Langley a few years
ago? (mid-90's)

There was a proposal to capture and kill a bunch of geese on base. The
original story was a safety of flight issue. No more bird strikes. PETA &
SPCA got all huffy about it, etc. Long local discussions.

Well...the local paper ( www.dailypress.com ) somehow got hold of a long
email chain, and published it in a Sunday edition.

Pretty clearly showed that the problem was not birdstrike reduction, but
instead all the goose poop on the golf course. ACC was hosting an upcoming
conference, and they wanted the golf course looking nice.

Pete

[Thomas Schoene]

"S. Sampson" > wrote in message


> I would hold 1000 nukes (WMD), and de-commission the rest, and convert
> the money into combat pay.

What money? I suspect you'd find that it actually costs money to
decommission the weapons, so the initial result of is actually an increased
cost to reduce the number of weapons.

As it is, the nuke inventory may decline to around 1700-2200 weapons under
the Moscow Treaty. That's the number allowed to be active. More may be kept
inactive, which may well be cheaper than actually dismantling them in the
near term.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[B2431]

>Consider the Class A Felony convictions of enlisted folks versus officer
>folks.
>
>> The
>> multimillion dollar systems from aircraft to ICBMS are maintained extremely
>> well by the people you have insulted.
>
>I think your reading my inputs here as an insult is telling.

Making broad statements as you would not trust anyone below E-6, GED and class
A felonies shows you are just plain predjudiced. Yes it takes a maintenance
officer to "ramrod" each flight, but that maintenance officer has to be able to
trust ALL the maintainers.

Why did I take offense? I find all bigotry offensive.

As for the class A felony thing you should know that the base commander's
office puts out a quarterly courtmartial/Article 15 list. Having seen that list
a few times I decided to make a rather unscientific study and found the per
capita courtmatial/Article 15 rate to be about the same.

Have you ever noticed the police blotters in base papers give enlisted ranks
but officers are listed as "an Air Force member" or some such? Granted the
police blotter never lists all offences, but you get the idea.

In the early 80s an enlisted member called the Eglin AFB base commander's
hotline asking why no officers were ever listed in the base paper as getting
Article 15s. He responded in the base paper that he did publish them in the
paper when they happened it had just been that no officers had received Article
15s in the recent past. He was a flat out liar. One of the 2 Article 15s given
to officers in the past quarter was a 1Lt friend of mine. Furthermore I had
seen the list for that quarter.

In short, you may not have heard of legal action taken against officers simply
because that information is covered up. I know of one captain who was allowed
to resign rather than face a courtmartial for DUI, resisting arrest, presenting
a false ID ( he had an enlisted man's) , conduct unbecoming etc("class A"
felonies). An enlisted man in a similar situation would have been raked across
the coals for exactly the same thing.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Brian]

"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
.. .
> "B2431" > wrote
> > The guys that fix the aircraft are E-1 - E6. Most of the wrench
> > benders are E-2 through E-5 and they make decisions every single day.
>
> Consider the Class A Felony convictions of enlisted folks versus officer
folks.

Just remember how much damage Officers have done to the military Vs.
enlisted. I don't recall any Enlisteds being at Tailhook or the chAir Force
Academy.

[Paul A. Suhler]

>>>
>>>Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)
>>>

Senior NCOs and junior enlisted are equally capable of messing up
their marriages. I still remember one of my E-2s in Korea coming
to me for advice because his wife and baby were due in a couple of
days (on an unaccompanied tour!), while he was in the middle of a
two-week VD restriction.

And I was in the orderly room when an E-6's wife called after curfew,
wanting to speak with him. Unfortunately, he was down range at his
yobo's place for the night. I told her that I didn't know where he
was (technically true) but that I'd have him call her.

Okay, so an E-6 isn't a senior NCO. We had an E-7 retire and a month
or so later came through to tell us about his new job as a courier and
how he was staying with his yobo. That's the last we saw of him, but
about a week later we got a letter from his wife in CONUS wanting to
know where he was and why she had to move out of on-post housing. That
was the first she knew about his retirement.

The officers were for the most part less messy. Or at least more
discreet.

Sigh.

[BUFDRVR]

>Point is, I think each individual should be treated individually -
>not necessarily by what kind of rank they have.
>

Absolutely true.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

<snip>

> There are officers
>with no college

<snip>

I agree with everything you stated except the above (at least in Todays
military) is not possible. Bachelors degree required as a minimum.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>Consider the Class A Felony convictions of enlisted folks versus officer
>folks.
>

I really don't know what the percentages are on either side, but remember; 1.)
There are 3 enlisted personel for every officer in the USAF 2.) Many of the
felonys comitted by enlisted troops are done because of immaturity, not rank.
When I was 18 between February and May I got drunk three nights a week, when
Spring rolled around maybe more, the only reason I wasn't like that from
September through December was because I played football. Now take an 18 year
old crew chief, if he conducts himself in a similar manner he's going to run
into a lot of trouble that could turn into legal action.

Bottom line, an 18 year old who enlists in the military takes on an infinite
amount more responsibility then your average 18 year old and if he/she can
handle it, he/she usually winds up being one of the most trust worthy persons
in the country.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

><snip>
>
>> There are officers
>>with no college
>
><snip>
>
>I agree with everything you stated except the above (at least in Todays
>military) is not possible. Bachelors degree required as a minimum.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

If memory serves the Navy didn't require a bachelors a few years ago. Maybe it
has changed.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Brian]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> ><snip>
> >
> >> There are officers
> >>with no college
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >I agree with everything you stated except the above (at least in Todays
> >military) is not possible. Bachelors degree required as a minimum.
> If memory serves the Navy didn't require a bachelors a few years ago.
Maybe it
> has changed.

Every service requires a Bachelors since at least 1988. There was a deal in
the Guard where you could get commissioned after your Junior year but you
had a maximum of 2 or 3 years to complete a Bachelors. Even then it's a
program that was hard to get.

[B2431]

>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >> There are officers
>> >>with no college
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
<snip>
>> If memory serves the Navy didn't require a bachelors a few years ago.
>Maybe it
>> has changed.
>
>Every service requires a Bachelors since at least 1988.
<snip>
OK, I stand corrected on that.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired