PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?

[Brian]

Did I hear correctly on the news that PFC Lynch was awarded a Bronze Star
along with a POW Medal and Purple Heart? I can understand the last two but a
freakin Bronze Star? What act of heroism did she perform? Don't get me
wrong, I'm not saying she did anything wrong but isn't the Army getting a
little generous with the Bronze Star?

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> Did I hear correctly on the news that PFC Lynch was awarded a Bronze Star
> along with a POW Medal and Purple Heart? I can understand the last two but
a
> freakin Bronze Star? What act of heroism did she perform? Don't get me
> wrong, I'm not saying she did anything wrong but isn't the Army getting a
> little generous with the Bronze Star?
>
>

I hope that all the guys that went in there to get her got one too. Maybe
they just gave the medal to everyone involved with the situation, including
the victim?

I hope that the Iraqi lawyer who reported her gets some kind of medal too.

[Lynn Coffelt]

I didn't get one either, Brian! After reviewing the criteria, I must say She
earned hers. How were you slighted? (like me <grin>)

Old Chief Lynn

[Cub Driver]

The U.S. Army (and navy and air force) has always been generous with
its medals. The higher your rank, the more expensive the metal on your
medal. Crikey, Claire Chennault was decorated for flying with a safety
pilot, and his fans were annoyed that it wasn't the Medal of Honor!

Lyndon Johnson was decorated for flying a mission that went nowhere
near the enemy.

To be sure, PFC Joe Lynch wouldn't have gotten a Bronze Star in like
circumstances, but Jessie is a special case. For one thing, she's cute
as a button in that picture of her with the American flag behind her.
I don't think we would have gotten nearly so worked up about PFC Joe
Lynch.

What's to bet that the good ladies at NOW (the same who would spit on
a uniform if it had a man inside it) will be complaining that it's
sexism she didn't get a Silver Star?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Cub Driver]

>I hope that the Iraqi lawyer who reported her gets some kind of medal too.

He did better: he got a flight to the U.S.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Gooneybird]

Cub Driver wrote:
>> I hope that the Iraqi lawyer who reported her gets some kind of medal too.
>
> He did better: he got a flight to the U.S.

And the magic green card, right? He deserved them....he hung it all out to dry
and took some huge risks for himself and his family.

George Z.

>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
> Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[TekTeam26]

Yes, Jessica Lynch got a Bronze Star. If you listened carefully, you would have
found out that she also got the "V" device for valor attached to that Bronze
Star. You don't get that for being captured after your truck is wrecked. You
get that for fighting the enemy with your weapon!!! It won't be much longer
before the BS story of Jessica receiving her injuries in a motor vehicle
accident will be exposed as the coverup that it is. Jessica was actually
captured standing up along with Lori Ann Piestewa after fiercely fighting the
Iraqi's with their individual personal weapons. What happened afterwards to
those two women is what the Army is so afraid of the world finding out about...

Jerry Hall

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: (TekTeam26)
>Date: 7/22/03 3:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Yes, Jessica Lynch got a Bronze Star. If you listened carefully, you would
>have
>found out that she also got the "V" device for valor attached to that Bronze
>Star. You don't get that for being captured after your truck is wrecked. You
>get that for fighting the enemy with your weapon!!! It won't be much longer
>before the BS story of Jessica receiving her injuries in a motor vehicle
>accident will be exposed as the coverup that it is. Jessica was actually
>captured standing up along with Lori Ann Piestewa after fiercely fighting the
>Iraqi's with their individual personal weapons. What happened afterwards to
>those two women is what the Army is so afraid of the world finding out
>about...
>
>Jerry Hall
>

I assume you had to do a lot more than Jessica did to get your Bronzre Star.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

(TekTeam26) wrote:

>Yes, Jessica Lynch got a Bronze Star. If you listened carefully, you would have
>found out that she also got the "V" device for valor attached to that Bronze
>Star. You don't get that for being captured after your truck is wrecked. You
>get that for fighting the enemy with your weapon!!! It won't be much longer
>before the BS story of Jessica receiving her injuries in a motor vehicle
>accident will be exposed as the coverup that it is. Jessica was actually
>captured standing up along with Lori Ann Piestewa after fiercely fighting the
>Iraqi's with their individual personal weapons. What happened afterwards to
>those two women is what the Army is so afraid of the world finding out about...
>
>Jerry Hall

Sure Jerry, and you know this how?...
--

-Gord.

[John Chene]

The other 507th POWs received bronze stars, except for one that
received a silver star, all received POW medals and 2 who were injured
received purple hearts. They were awarded during a ceremony at Ft.
Bliss in June. You should be able to find news accounts online easily.
The silver star recipient shot some enemy troops before he was
captured. The broze star recipients did not break under interrogation.
At least one of them misled his captors about radio frequencies
written on the inside of his helmet being prices for pumps and other
parts.

[Kevin Brooks]

(TekTeam26) wrote in message >...
> Yes, Jessica Lynch got a Bronze Star. If you listened carefully, you would have
> found out that she also got the "V" device for valor attached to that Bronze
> Star. You don't get that for being captured after your truck is wrecked. You
> get that for fighting the enemy with your weapon!!! It won't be much longer
> before the BS story of Jessica receiving her injuries in a motor vehicle
> accident will be exposed as the coverup that it is. Jessica was actually
> captured standing up along with Lori Ann Piestewa after fiercely fighting the
> Iraqi's with their individual personal weapons. What happened afterwards to
> those two women is what the Army is so afraid of the world finding out about...
>
> Jerry Hall

Not according to the official DoD news release:

"On July 21 the Army awarded Lynch the Bronze Star..." (no mention of
V), and "The Bronze Star is given for meritorious service in combat".
See DefenseLink if you find any problem with that. So where did you
get the "V" bit from...?

Brooks

[Leslie Swartz]

Your **** is so out of wack it isn't even funny.

We don't even know where to begin; however, your delusional description of
the events (and avoidance of a description of the shameful lack of
preparation leading up to them) might be a start.

We don't even know yet whether/how much she was tortured and/or whether/how
much she talked.

Steve


"TekTeam26" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, Jessica Lynch got a Bronze Star. If you listened carefully, you would
have
> found out that she also got the "V" device for valor attached to that
Bronze
> Star. You don't get that for being captured after your truck is wrecked.
You
> get that for fighting the enemy with your weapon!!! It won't be much
longer
> before the BS story of Jessica receiving her injuries in a motor vehicle
> accident will be exposed as the coverup that it is. Jessica was actually
> captured standing up along with Lori Ann Piestewa after fiercely fighting
the
> Iraqi's with their individual personal weapons. What happened afterwards
to
> those two women is what the Army is so afraid of the world finding out
about...
>
> Jerry Hall

[M Power]

Jessica Lynch did *nothing* to deserve her Bronze Star. She was
injured in a auto accident, and never fired a single round. She
deserves a Purple Heart and POW medal of course, but not a Bronze
Star, especially with a Combat "V". I have a Combat "V", and I had to
do a lot more than wreck my vehicle to get it. No, PFC Lynch didn't
do anything deserving of the BS at all. This is simple politics at
it's worst.

(TekTeam26) wrote in message >...
> Yes, Jessica Lynch got a Bronze Star. If you listened carefully, you would have
> found out that she also got the "V" device for valor attached to that Bronze
> Star. You don't get that for being captured after your truck is wrecked. You
> get that for fighting the enemy with your weapon!!! It won't be much longer
> before the BS story of Jessica receiving her injuries in a motor vehicle
> accident will be exposed as the coverup that it is. Jessica was actually
> captured standing up along with Lori Ann Piestewa after fiercely fighting the
> Iraqi's with their individual personal weapons. What happened afterwards to
> those two women is what the Army is so afraid of the world finding out about...
>
> Jerry Hall

[B2431]

>
>Jessica Lynch did *nothing* to deserve her Bronze Star. She was
>injured in a auto accident, and never fired a single round. She
>deserves a Purple Heart and POW medal of course, but not a Bronze
>Star, especially with a Combat "V". I have a Combat "V", and I had to
>do a lot more than wreck my vehicle to get it. No, PFC Lynch didn't
>do anything deserving of the BS at all. This is simple politics at
>it's worst.
>

And just how many combat medics would you want to take combat awards away from
simply because they never fired a shot?

I will say, however, the media pay too much attention to her just as they did
with Scott Grady.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[M Power]

You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
She wasn't parachuting into a hostile zone and saving a downed pilot.
That's a horrible comparison. Soldiers should not get Bronze Stars
for wrecking their vehicles. There needs to be more to it than that.
She was a POW and she was injured in war, therefore the POW Medal and
Purple Heart are deserved, but not the BS. Why is that so hard to
understand?


(B2431) wrote in message >...
> >
> >Jessica Lynch did *nothing* to deserve her Bronze Star. She was
> >injured in a auto accident, and never fired a single round. She
> >deserves a Purple Heart and POW medal of course, but not a Bronze
> >Star, especially with a Combat "V". I have a Combat "V", and I had to
> >do a lot more than wreck my vehicle to get it. No, PFC Lynch didn't
> >do anything deserving of the BS at all. This is simple politics at
> >it's worst.
> >
>
> And just how many combat medics would you want to take combat awards away from
> simply because they never fired a shot?
>
> I will say, however, the media pay too much attention to her just as they did
> with Scott Grady.
>
> Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Keith Willshaw]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
> You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.

So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
in a boating accident ?

Keith

[Chad Irby]

(M Power) wrote:

> You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.

Yeah. The Humvee ran into an RPG.

> She wasn't parachuting into a hostile zone and saving a downed pilot.

If she was, she'd be up for a Silver Star or better...

> That's a horrible comparison. Soldiers should not get Bronze Stars
> for wrecking their vehicles.

However, they should (and do) get them for being in a vehicle that gets
shot out from under them with an RPG and holding up well when captured
and tortured. There's also the question of how she did in the original
combat, which we haven't heard a full story on.

You might note that a Bronze Star is only one spot above the Purple
Heart in order of precedence...

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[M Power]

Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.


"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
> > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
>
> So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> in a boating accident ?
>
> Keith

[Kevin Brooks]

(M Power) wrote in message >...
> You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.

She wasn't driving, and the accident occured during an ambush (hardly
your run-of-the-mill fender bender).

> She wasn't parachuting into a hostile zone and saving a downed pilot.

Those kind of activities usually garner more than a BS.

> That's a horrible comparison. Soldiers should not get Bronze Stars
> for wrecking their vehicles.

She didn't.

>There needs to be more to it than that.

There was.

> She was a POW and she was injured in war, therefore the POW Medal and
> Purple Heart are deserved, but not the BS. Why is that so hard to
> understand?

Because you are not making sense? She got the BS without a V (at least
that is the way it reads in the DoD press release); hundreds, if not
thousands, of other folks will also get the BS w/o V for even more
mundane activities. The BS without V is merely an award for
meritorious service not involving personal heroism during a period of
combat operations. It is really that simple.

Brooks

>
>
> (B2431) wrote in message >...
> > >
> > >Jessica Lynch did *nothing* to deserve her Bronze Star. She was
> > >injured in a auto accident, and never fired a single round. She
> > >deserves a Purple Heart and POW medal of course, but not a Bronze
> > >Star, especially with a Combat "V". I have a Combat "V", and I had to
> > >do a lot more than wreck my vehicle to get it. No, PFC Lynch didn't
> > >do anything deserving of the BS at all. This is simple politics at
> > >it's worst.
> > >
> >
> > And just how many combat medics would you want to take combat awards away from
> > simply because they never fired a shot?
> >
> > I will say, however, the media pay too much attention to her just as they did
> > with Scott Grady.
> >
> > Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Keith Willshaw]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...

> > "M Power" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> >
> > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> > in a boating accident ?
> >
> > Keith

> Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
>
>

Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.

Keth

[Matt Wiser]

"Brian" > wrote:
>Did I hear correctly on the news that PFC Lynch
>was awarded a Bronze Star
>along with a POW Medal and Purple Heart? I can
>understand the last two but a
>freakin Bronze Star? What act of heroism did
>she perform? Don't get me
>wrong, I'm not saying she did anything wrong
>but isn't the Army getting a
>little generous with the Bronze Star?
>
>
>
Almost everyone who survived the ambush got a Bronze Star-two other survivors
(incl. one of her fellow POWs) got Silver Stars. Apparently she DID fire
her M-16, but whether or not she killed any of her attackers is still in
dispute. The SEAL team I would imagine would be up for either a NUC or PUC.
Mohammed the Iraqi who tipped off the Marines to her location will probably
get the greatest reward of all: US Citizenship for himself and his family.
Congress might give him a Congressional Gold Medal, though.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 7/24/03 2:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
>
>> > "M Power" > wrote in message
>> > om...
>> > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
>> >
>> > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
>> > in a boating accident ?
>> >
>> > Keith
>
>> Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
>>
>>
>
>Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
>
>Keth
>
>
>

That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[M Power]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
> >Date: 7/24/03 2:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> >> > "M Power" > wrote in message
> >> > om...
> >> > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> >> >
> >> > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> >> > in a boating accident ?
> >> >
> >> > Keith
>
> >> Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
> >
> >Keth
> >
> >
> >
>
> That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)

It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.


>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: (M Power)
>Date: 7/24/03 12:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> >Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
>> >Date: 7/24/03 2:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"M Power" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> >
>> >> > "M Power" > wrote in message
>> >> > om...
>> >> > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
>> >> >
>> >> > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
>> >> > in a boating accident ?
>> >> >
>> >> > Keith
>>
>> >> Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
>> >
>> >Keth
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)
>
>It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
>has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
>her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
>wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.
>
>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Yeah they say she had a real fun time as a PW and a patient in an Iraqi Why did
they have to rush in and rescue her when she was having such a great time as a
captive? But since you went through the same experience you would know all
about that. Right?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Keith Willshaw]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
> (ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...

> >
> > That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)
>
> It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
> has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
> her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
> wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.
>

The auto accident was of course a result of a truck being hit
by an RPG, damm few drivers manage to retain control in
such circumstances, similarly few boaters manage to swim ashore
after their vessel is bombed.

The analogy is accurate.

Keith

[Chad Irby]

(M Power) wrote:

> It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
> has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
> her was an auto accident.

The Humvee she was riding in was hit by an RPG.

How in the *hell* do you call that an "accident?"

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[M Power]

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
>
> She wasn't driving, and the accident occured during an ambush (hardly
> your run-of-the-mill fender bender).

Who cares who was driving? She was in an accident, just as I said.

>
> > She wasn't parachuting into a hostile zone and saving a downed pilot.
>
> Those kind of activities usually garner more than a BS.

No,they typically do not. Once in a great while they garner a SS, but
only if they kill a few bad-guys first.

>
> > That's a horrible comparison. Soldiers should not get Bronze Stars
> > for wrecking their vehicles.
>
> She didn't.

Yes, she did. She got a Purple heart for being injured. She got a
POW medal for being a POW. She didn't do anything else except survive
an auto accident and get a case of amnesia. Therefore, she must be
getting her BS for the latter events. Or, she might be getting it
simply because it's bad politics as I said before, but that *couldn't"
be the reason. They would never hand out an award for reasons as bad
as that <sigh of sarcasm>.

>
> >There needs to be more to it than that.
>
> There was.

No, there was not.

>
> > She was a POW and she was injured in war, therefore the POW Medal and
> > Purple Heart are deserved, but not the BS. Why is that so hard to
> > understand?
>
> Because you are not making sense? She got the BS without a V (at least
> that is the way it reads in the DoD press release); hundreds, if not
> thousands, of other folks will also get the BS w/o V for even more
> mundane activities. The BS without V is merely an award for
> meritorious service not involving personal heroism during a period of
> combat operations. It is really that simple.


You are the one that is not making sense. In the Bosnia/Kosovo
campaign, only 204 Army BS were handed out. Out of those, only 25
enlisted Army soldiers recieved one. The lowest rank being an E-8.
They only recieved these for holding extremely high levels of
responsibility, or for saving someone's life. Jessica Lynch did none
of these thngs. She got a BS for purely political reasons. She
doesn't deserve to wear it, and the BS has been watered down even more
by her receiving it. Yep, as you've said, it really is that simple.


> Brooks
>
> >
> >
> > (B2431) wrote in message >...
> > > >
> > > >Jessica Lynch did *nothing* to deserve her Bronze Star. She was
> > > >injured in a auto accident, and never fired a single round. She
> > > >deserves a Purple Heart and POW medal of course, but not a Bronze
> > > >Star, especially with a Combat "V". I have a Combat "V", and I had to
> > > >do a lot more than wreck my vehicle to get it. No, PFC Lynch didn't
> > > >do anything deserving of the BS at all. This is simple politics at
> > > >it's worst.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And just how many combat medics would you want to take combat awards away from
> > > simply because they never fired a shot?
> > >
> > > I will say, however, the media pay too much attention to her just as they did
> > > with Scott Grady.
> > >
> > > Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Who cares who was driving? She was in an accident, just as I said.
>

An accident? You mean the Iraqis didn't intend to attack the convoy?

[Cub Driver]

>She was a POW and she was injured in war, therefore the POW Medal and
>Purple Heart are deserved, but not the BS. Why is that so hard to
>understand?

Several posts have shown how the Bronze Star and even medals for valor
are handed out indiscriminately.

Lyndon Johnson got the Silver Star for this mission:

"For gallantry in action in the vicinity of Port Moresby and Salamaua,
New Guinea on June 9, 1942. While on a mission of obtaining
information in the Southwest Pacific area, Lieutenant Commander
Johnson, in order to obtain personal knowledge of combat conditions,
volunteered as an observer on a hazardous aerial combat mission over
hostile positions in New Guinea. As our planes neared the target area
they were intercepted by eight hostile fighters. When, at this time,
the plane in which Lieutenant Commander Johnson was an observer,
developed mechanical trouble and was forced to turn back alone,
presenting a favorable target to the enemy fighters, he evidenced
marked coolness in spite of the hazards involved. His gallant action
enabled him to obtain and return with valuable information."

I have seen it creditably argued that Johnson's plane was nowhere near
the "hostile fighters". He was a tourist on that flight, not a spy for
the U.S. Navy! Crikey. Pretty Jessie deserves her Bronze far more than
LBJ deserved his Silver.

Why is that so hard to understand? Or do you find it easier to justify
bull**** medals for politicians, or officers, or men?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 7/24/03 1:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>hen, at this time,
>the plane in which Lieutenant Commander Johnson was an observer,
>developed mechanical trouble and was forced to turn back alone,
>presenting a favorable target to the enemy fighters, he evidenced
>marked coolness in spite of the

Ya mean all you gotta do is get hit by fighters and you get a SIlver Star???
Where the hell is mine?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(M Power) wrote:

> Who cares who was driving? She was in an accident, just as I said.

Once again: a Humvee getting hit by an RPG is not, by any sane
definition, an "accident." Unless you think some Iraqi soldier
"accidentally" fired the RPG and "accidentally" hit the vehicle...

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>
>Yeah they say she had a real fun time as a PW and a patient in an Iraqi Why did
>they have to rush in and rescue her when she was having such a great time as a
>captive? But since you went through the same experience you would know all
>about that. Right?
>
>Arthur Kramer

Art, when will you be posting the story about your capture and
detention on your website?...I'm looking fwd to your impressions
of this scary event...
--

-Gord.

[Chris Mark]

>From: artkramr@a

>Ya mean all you gotta do is get hit by fighters and you get a SIlver Star???
>Where the hell is mine?

As luck would have it, the B-26 LBJ was on aborted before reaching the target
and being engaged by Zeros. So the citation for the SS is misleading. It's not
the only such citation that is not entirely accurate.
Johnson had joined Lt. Col. Francis Stevens and Col. Samuel Anderson, both on
George C. Marshall's staff and sent by him to review the situation in New
Guinea. The B-26 Stevens was on was shot down and all aboard killed. Anderson
made it back and reported to MacArthur personally, accompanied by Johnson.
MacA awarded both men Silver Stars and awarded Stevens the DSC posthumously.
Objectively, I suppose none of the men deserved medals. Apparently none of the
B-26 crew members received medals for the mission.
Interestingly, in Harold Ickes diary, he writes of this episode that MacArthur
offered Johnson the medal but that Johnson declined. Only some time later did
Johnson receive the citation and medal in the mail. Of course, throughout his
career Johnson never missed an opportunity to wear the Silver Star pin in his
lapel.


Chris Mark

[M Power]

Your inability to correctly spell your own first name is noted as
well. Secondly, whether or not Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed in a
boating accident or not has nothing to do with PFC Lynch. Therefore,
no substantive response is needed.

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > > "M Power" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> > >
> > > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> > > in a boating accident ?
> > >
> > > Keith
>
> > Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
> >
> >
>
> Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
>
> Keth

[M Power]

Your inability to correctly spell your own first name is noted as
well. Secondly, whether or not Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed in a
boating accident or not has nothing to do with PFC Lynch. Therefore,
no substantive response is needed.

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > > "M Power" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> > >
> > > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> > > in a boating accident ?
> > >
> > > Keith
>
> > Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
> >
> >
>
> Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
>
> Keth

[M Power]

Your inability to correctly spell your own first name is noted as
well. Secondly, whether or not Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed in a
boating accident or not has nothing to do with PFC Lynch. Therefore,
no substantive response is needed.


"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > > "M Power" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> > >
> > > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> > > in a boating accident ?
> > >
> > > Keith
>
> > Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
> >
> >
>
> Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
>
> Keth

[M Power]

Your inability to correctly spell your own first name is noted as
well. Secondly, whether or not Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed in a
boating accident or not has nothing to do with PFC Lynch. Therefore,
no substantive response is needed.


"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > > "M Power" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> > >
> > > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> > > in a boating accident ?
> > >
> > > Keith
>
> > Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
> >
> >
>
> Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
>
> Keth

[Kevin Brooks]

(M Power) wrote in message >...
> (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> >
> > She wasn't driving, and the accident occured during an ambush (hardly
> > your run-of-the-mill fender bender).
>
> Who cares who was driving? She was in an accident, just as I said.

Then you are wrong. It happened during an active ambush, with their
vehicle smack dab in the KZ. You call that an *accident*? If so, what
do you call the shooting of all of those "sniper" victims we endured
last year in the DC/NVa area, "accidental weapons discharges"?

>
> >
> > > She wasn't parachuting into a hostile zone and saving a downed pilot.
> >
> > Those kind of activities usually garner more than a BS.
>
> No,they typically do not. Once in a great while they garner a SS, but
> only if they kill a few bad-guys first.

Name an incident where a PJ jumped into a hostile DZ, rescued a pilot,
and got only a BS. Methinks you can't do so....

>
> >
> > > That's a horrible comparison. Soldiers should not get Bronze Stars
> > > for wrecking their vehicles.
> >
> > She didn't.
>
> Yes, she did.

She did not wreck their vehicle, now did she?

She got a Purple heart for being injured. She got a
> POW medal for being a POW. She didn't do anything else except survive
> an auto accident and get a case of amnesia. Therefore, she must be
> getting her BS for the latter events. Or, she might be getting it
> simply because it's bad politics as I said before, but that *couldn't"
> be the reason. They would never hand out an award for reasons as bad
> as that <sigh of sarcasm>.

Read up on the criteria for the BS *without* V device, and then peruse
the history in terms of the number of BS's awarded during recent
conflicts...after you have done that, come back and tell us how her
conduct under the circumstances she found herself in did not measure
up to the lofty standards that all of those staff pogues, etc.,
exhibited in getting *their* BS's without V's.

>
> >
> > >There needs to be more to it than that.
> >
> > There was.
>
> No, there was not.

I am sure you are ready to tell us how you can so definitely state
that? Been captured after surviving an ambush lately?

>
> >
> > > She was a POW and she was injured in war, therefore the POW Medal and
> > > Purple Heart are deserved, but not the BS. Why is that so hard to
> > > understand?
> >
> > Because you are not making sense? She got the BS without a V (at least
> > that is the way it reads in the DoD press release); hundreds, if not
> > thousands, of other folks will also get the BS w/o V for even more
> > mundane activities. The BS without V is merely an award for
> > meritorious service not involving personal heroism during a period of
> > combat operations. It is really that simple.
>
>
> You are the one that is not making sense. In the Bosnia/Kosovo
> campaign, only 204 Army BS were handed out. Out of those, only 25
> enlisted Army soldiers recieved one. The lowest rank being an E-8.

Whoopie. So, are you now saying she did not deserve it because she was
not of a high enough grade? And what were those BS's awarded for?
Meritorious service, right? Usually with no involvement in ambushes,
injury, becoming a POW, acquiting oneself honorably under those
conditions, etc.?

> They only recieved these for holding extremely high levels of
> responsibility,

Bull poopie. The entire staff of my former BN (minus one single
individual) got the BS during ODS. I don't claim they did not deserve
that award (without V's), but the fact of the matter is that this was
a *theater level* engineer unit staff that spent the entire war in
Saudi Arabia. Folks in that unit as low as E-7 also received it, and
not one of them either faced an ambush or served a a PW.

> or for saving someone's life. Jessica Lynch did none
> of these thngs.

The latter would normally garner a "V", which she did not get. As to
meritorious service, your definition may vary with mileage, but the
fact of the matter is that a bunch of them have been awarded for more
mundane activities, and will be for the current operation--you can bet
on it.

> She got a BS for purely political reasons.

How do you *know* that?

She
> doesn't deserve to wear it,

Pardon me if I don't accept your whining as definitive proof of that.

and the BS has been watered down even more
> by her receiving it. Yep, as you've said, it really is that simple.

Then why can't you seem to *get* it? 'Nuff said. been fun, and the
plain fact is that tomorrow when we awaken Jessica will still have her
BS, and there is not a thing you can do about it (which given your
poor understanding of what the award really conotates is probably a
good thing....)

Brooks

>
>
> > Brooks
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > (B2431) wrote in message >...
> > > > >
> > > > >Jessica Lynch did *nothing* to deserve her Bronze Star. She was
> > > > >injured in a auto accident, and never fired a single round. She
> > > > >deserves a Purple Heart and POW medal of course, but not a Bronze
> > > > >Star, especially with a Combat "V". I have a Combat "V", and I had to
> > > > >do a lot more than wreck my vehicle to get it. No, PFC Lynch didn't
> > > > >do anything deserving of the BS at all. This is simple politics at
> > > > >it's worst.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > And just how many combat medics would you want to take combat awards away from
> > > > simply because they never fired a shot?
> > > >
> > > > I will say, however, the media pay too much attention to her just as they did
> > > > with Scott Grady.
> > > >
> > > > Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Keith Willshaw]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
> Your inability to correctly spell your own first name is noted as
> well. Secondly, whether or not Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed in a
> boating accident or not has nothing to do with PFC Lynch. Therefore,
> no substantive response is needed.
>
>

A spelling (actually typing) flame - how original

So tell me oh mighty intelligence if the IRA opened fire
on traffic on a road you were driving down, killing the driver
in front and causing you to hurt yourself in the ensuing melee
would you describe the cause of your injuries as

1) A terrorist attack ?

2) A routine traffic accident ?


Keith

[Richard Lamb]

Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (ArtKramr) wrote in message
> >...
>
> > >
> > > That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)
> >
> > It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
> > has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
> > her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
> > wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.
> >
>
> The auto accident was of course a result of a truck being hit
> by an RPG, damm few drivers manage to retain control in
> such circumstances, similarly few boaters manage to swim ashore
> after their vessel is bombed.
>
> The analogy is accurate.
>
> Keith

And the medal is entirely appropriate.

So who has a beef with it?

And why?

Richard

[Cub Driver]

>As luck would have it, the B-26 LBJ was on aborted before reaching the target
>and being engaged by Zeros. So the citation for the SS is misleading. It's not
>the only such citation that is not entirely accurate.

Thanks for confirming that. I remembered it as the case but didn't
have anything here to back it up.

And remember that Johnson got the Silver, not the Bronze.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[M Power]

Look, what she went through obviously was not a good thing, I'm not
denying that. The POW Medal and Purple Heart are well deserved for
her experiences. The Purple Heart is for the injuries sustained
during the crash, and the POW medal is obviously for having to endure
being a POW. I imagine being a POW is never a fun experience, but
Lynch had it about as good as one can have it in that regard. She was
a POW in a hospital where Iraqi doctors were taking care of her. She
wasn't beaten, raped, shot or stabbed, and she was under *decent*
medical care according to our own medical personnel. Without a doubt,
her experience was a *far* better one compared to what some of the
other POW's had to go through, and most of them didn't get a BS. A
rescue would have been attempted for any of the POW's, had they had
intel on where they were at. Just because she was rescued doesn't
mean her POW situation was the worst one of all. It only means they
knew where she was. What, do you think the people that make those
decisions said "let's rescue Lynch because she's so bad off, but we'll
let the other POW's sit there and rot"? No, they rescued her because
they knew where the hell she was! Add to the fact that she's a young
girl that's somewhat pretty, and all of the sudden she's an American
hero. What a joke. Unlike most of you in this group (not all, but
most), I'm not talking out of my ass. I was in Afghanistan, and
recieved a Medal with a Combat "V" for Heroism. What I had to get it
was more harrowing than sitting in a hospital witing to be rescued.
Had I been a POW, I would have expected a POW medal. Had I been
injured, I would have expected a Purple Heart. But in order for me to
get a BS, I would have had to have done something else *other* than
those two things to deserve it. There isn't one person in this forum
that can tell me she did anything else *other* than get injured in an
auto accident that was caused by an RPG (Purple Heart covers this),
and then spend time as a POW (POW medal covers this) that is
completely seperate from those two specific intances. Anything heroic
*other* than those two things may constitute a BS, but there isn't
anything else that she did. You are supposed to get one medal for
each specific thing you do. You do *not* get two or three medals for
the same thing, as she did. What she did was already covered by the
PH and the POW. The fact that they threw a BS in the mix is nothing
but politics based on her being america's current sweetheart. Being
active duty military, everyone that I have ever spoken to (we have had
numerous discussion about this at work)understands this, and therefore
strongly disagrees with her recieving a BS. If she had done
something to deserve it, we would be more than happy to see her get
it, but that isn't the case. The only people that seem to agree with
her receiving the BS are civilians or retired military that have
*never* been in combat and do not understand how these things are
supposed to work. Also, my thoughts on this would be exactly tyhr
same if she were a male. I have seen (in the same conflict I was in),
senior officers recieve high medals for literally doing nothing but
being present in country. The were never part of any raids, they
never fired any shots, they didn't participate in any cave-hunts, they
didn't rescue anyone from a minefield.. They did nothing. Yet they
recieved medals that would cause someone that saw said medal, to
assume they had done somethng heroic. It's unfortunate that this
happens, but it does. PFC Lynch is yet another example of crappy
politics at work. Regardless of your *opinions* on this matter, the
*fact* is that PFC Lynch was awarded a medal she did not deserve.

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
> >From: (M Power)
> >Date: 7/24/03 12:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> (ArtKramr) wrote in message
> >...
> >> >Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
> >> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
> >> >Date: 7/24/03 2:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"M Power" > wrote in message
> >> om...
> >> >
> >> >> > "M Power" > wrote in message
> >> >> > om...
> >> >> > > You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So you presumably think Lord Louis Mountbatten was killed
> >> >> > in a boating accident ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Keith
>
> >> >> Please put down the crack-pipe and speak sensibly. Thank you.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Your inability to post a substantive response is noted.
> >> >
> >> >Keth
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)
> >
> >It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
> >has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
> >her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
> >wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> >> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>
> Yeah they say she had a real fun time as a PW and a patient in an Iraqi Why did
> they have to rush in and rescue her when she was having such a great time as a
> captive? But since you went through the same experience you would know all
> about that. Right?
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[M Power]

Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.
Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
medals have covered everthing already.


"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (ArtKramr) wrote in message
> >...
>
> > >
> > > That analogy was over his head.I thought it was pretty clever. (grin)
> >
> > It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
> > has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
> > her was an auto accident. She wasn't shot, she wasn't stabbed, she
> > wasn't beaten. Bad analogy and a bad argument.
> >
>
> The auto accident was of course a result of a truck being hit
> by an RPG, damm few drivers manage to retain control in
> such circumstances, similarly few boaters manage to swim ashore
> after their vessel is bombed.
>
> The analogy is accurate.
>
> Keith

[M Power]

She wasn't injured by an RPG directly (i.e., by frag or blast). She
was injured by the HMMWV crashing. Purposeful, accidental, RPG
frag/blast or crashing in a HMMWV...it does *not* matter....she was
injured in combat and was *appropriately* awarded a Purple Heart for
her injuries. Then she was *appropriately* awarded the POW medal for
being a Prisoner of War. The Bronze Star is *not* justified by any of
her actions (or lack thereof).


Chad Irby > wrote in message >...
> (M Power) wrote:
>
> > It wasn't clever, nor was it over my head. An IRA bombing on a boat
> > has nothing to do with PFC Lynch since the only thing that happened to
> > her was an auto accident.
>
> The Humvee she was riding in was hit by an RPG.
>
> How in the *hell* do you call that an "accident?"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 7/25/03 2:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 24 Jul 2003 20:42:42 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>the plane in which Lieutenant Commander Johnson was an observer,
>>>developed mechanical trouble and was forced to turn back alone,
>>>presenting a favorable target to the enemy fighters, he evidenced
>>>marked coolness in spite of the
>>
>>Ya mean all you gotta do is get hit by fighters and you get a SIlver Star???
>>Where the hell is mine?
>
>Well, Art, did you evidence marked coolness? That would be the key,
>surely.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

Ah Dan you have out your finger on it again. I wasn't all that cool. I guess
that is why I never got a Silver Star every time a fighter showed up.I shoulda
been cooler. I woulda had a hell of a lot of Silver Stars. (sheesh)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Keith Willshaw]

"M Power" > wrote in message
m...
> Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
> Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.

Of course it does, being injured in combat

> Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
> she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
> would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
> Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
> medals have covered everthing already.
>

Thats an assumption on your part, as far as I know the exact
grounds for the award of that medal havent been made public
nor has an accurate record of what she did.

The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can
be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or
herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service"
under any of three circumstances:

"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing
foreign force."
While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not
a belligerent party

As others have pointed out LBJ got a silver star just for being
in a plane that was shot at, he wasnt flying it and he wasnt hit.
In Kosovo Bronze Stars were awarded to people who never
entered a combat zone including an Air Force lieutenant colonel
who was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at
Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.

Also after the Kosovo operation the Navy awarded 69 Bronze Stars,
mostly to sailors aboard warships in the Adriatic and Ionian Seas.
At least four went to desk personnel in Naples, Italy.

In contrast Jessica Fletcher "While engaged in military operations
involving conflict with an opposing foreign force." received injuries that
will likely leave her in pain for the rest of her life, if a bronze star
helps her along the way I see no problem with that.

Keith

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 7/25/03 7:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"M Power" > wrote in message
m...
>> Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
>> Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.
>
>Of course it does, being injured in combat
>
>> Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
>> she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
>> would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
>> Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
>> medals have covered everthing already.
>>
>
>Thats an assumption on your part, as far as I know the exact
>grounds for the award of that medal havent been made public
>nor has an accurate record of what she did.
>
>The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can
> be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or
>herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service"
>under any of three circumstances:
>
>"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
>"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing
>foreign force."
>While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not
>a belligerent party
>
>As others have pointed out LBJ got a silver star just for being
>in a plane that was shot at, he wasnt flying it and he wasnt hit.
>In Kosovo Bronze Stars were awarded to people who never
>entered a combat zone including an Air Force lieutenant colonel
>who was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at
>Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.
>
>Also after the Kosovo operation the Navy awarded 69 Bronze Stars,
>mostly to sailors aboard warships in the Adriatic and Ionian Seas.
>At least four went to desk personnel in Naples, Italy.
>
>In contrast Jessica Fletcher "While engaged in military operations
> involving conflict with an opposing foreign force." received injuries that
>will likely leave her in pain for the rest of her life, if a bronze star
>helps her along the way I see no problem with that.
>
>Keith
>
>

Absolutely correct. I would say that the only ones qualified to critisize her
BS are those who themselves have " engaged in military operations iinvolved in
coinflict with an opposing enemy force" The others should just shut up.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

(M Power) wrote in message >...
> (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > > (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > > > (M Power) wrote in message >...
>
> > > You are the one that is not making sense. In the Bosnia/Kosovo
> > > campaign, only 204 Army BS were handed out. Out of those, only 25
> > > enlisted Army soldiers recieved one. The lowest rank being an E-8.
> >
> > Whoopie. So, are you now saying she did not deserve it because she was
> > not of a high enough grade? And what were those BS's awarded for?
> > Meritorious service, right? Usually with no involvement in ambushes,
> > injury, becoming a POW, acquiting oneself honorably under those
> > conditions, etc.?
>
> Negative! A person of ANY grade should recieve a BS is they deserve
> it. My point was that the only lower grade personnel that recieved it
> did a hell of lot more than PFC Lynch did to get theirs. It's an
> embarrassment to them, as well the medal, to give her one for her
> *actions* when others have had to be in far more dangerous situations
> than she wss in to recieve theirs.

LOL! How many BS winners, without "V"s, as her award was, have "had to
be in far more dangerous situations" than a freakin' *ambush* to get
those awards?! For gosh sakes--she got the same award they routinely
handed out to the vast *majority* of mid-level and higher officers
during ODS who never saw a shot fired in anger, and you want to break
her balls (or lack thereof)? Get real.

And I note the quick backpeddle you have performed regarding your
earlier claim that folks have been parachuting into DZ's and rescuing
pilots and getting less than the BS w/o V device....not exactly a big
surprise. Snipping your incorrect statements does not make them go
away...

>
> >
> > > They only recieved these for holding extremely high levels of
> > > responsibility,
> >
> > Bull poopie. The entire staff of my former BN (minus one single
> > individual) got the BS during ODS. I don't claim they did not deserve
> > that award (without V's), but the fact of the matter is that this was
> > a *theater level* engineer unit staff that spent the entire war in
> > Saudi Arabia. Folks in that unit as low as E-7 also received it, and
> > not one of them either faced an ambush or served a a PW.
>
> All you have done is shown more prrof of how watered down the medal
> has become. Giving one to PFC Lynch has added to this effect
> immensely.

Crap. You still seem to have a real problem understanding that the BS
w/o V is, and has been for decades, a rather common award for
meritorious service during a period of conflict; it appears that what
normally rates an ARCOM during peacetime service gets the old BS if
you happen to find yourself in-theater. Lynch's award, without the V,
has only added to this "effect" in the minds of those who apparently
base their own selfworth on the ribbons and awards they have garnered,
and who can't seem to be able to read the requirements set forth in
the regs for its award.

>
> >
> > > or for saving someone's life. Jessica Lynch did none
> > > of these thngs.
> >
> > The latter would normally garner a "V", which she did not get. As to
> > meritorious service, your definition may vary with mileage, but the
> > fact of the matter is that a bunch of them have been awarded for more
> > mundane activities, and will be for the current operation--you can bet
> > on it.
> >
> > > She got a BS for purely political reasons.
> >
> > How do you *know* that?
>
> Because it's obvious.

The sun obviously rises and sets every day--does that make it
"obvious" that the sun is rotating around the earth instead of vice
versa?

She's become america's sweetheart. She's all
> over the news, she was given a new car, she has a free ride to
> college, and she'll probably have a book deal and make tons of money.
> Do you live under a rock?

You sound terribly jealous and more than a bit petty over what she has
received. Remember that she did not ASK for any of this, from getting
wounded to receiving the BS. She did her duty, and by all accounts it
was performed honorably under conditions that most of us will never
encounter--that's good enough for me.

>
> >
> > She
> > > doesn't deserve to wear it,
> >
> > Pardon me if I don't accept your whining as definitive proof of that.
>
> The only whining here is from you. You're like a "no-nothing" sheep
> that blindly follows the herd.

Funny, coming from a guy who can't seem to grasp that the BS w/o V is
not a decoration awarded for valor.

Because everyone else thinks she's a
> hero, you think she's one as well. It's pretty funny, actually;-)

Nope, I don't think she is a hero; but then again, I don't think
anybody who has the BS w/o V is a "hero", not based upon that item
alone. Even the guys I persnally have known who had the V did not
think of themselves as "heroic"--are you getting this award mixed up
with the SS, DSC, and MOH, or for that matter the Soldier's Medal?

> >
> > and the BS has been watered down even more
> > > by her receiving it. Yep, as you've said, it really is that simple.
> >
> > Then why can't you seem to *get* it? 'Nuff said. been fun, and the
> > plain fact is that tomorrow when we awaken Jessica will still have her
> > BS, and there is not a thing you can do about it (which given your
> > poor understanding of what the award really conotates is probably a
> > good thing....)
>
> Have you ever been in combat?

Oh, boy! What are you, a graduate of the Art Kramer School of Those
Combat Qualified to Belittle the Efforts of Others?

Have you ever recieved a Combat "V" for
> heroism?

Nope. Had some friends who did. Also served with some who did more
than they did and got zilch.

Well I *have*.

Ah....! Your reasoning now becomes clear! You have a BS w/V, and, not
realizing that the BS w/o V is routinely awarded for rather mundane
activities, feel that awarding Jessica the BS w/o V belittles your own
station in life. Don't worry; those who understand the awards system
will continue to recognize that the V denotes some degree of valor
involved in winning the award (but not necessarilly that you are a
self-designated "hero").

So my "understanding" far exceeds yours,

No, your paranoia regarding your own selfworth and the effect of Lynch
getting the BS upon it exceeds mine.

you
> can be sure. As far as her having the award, this is true. But her
> time in the military will be an uncomfortable one since anyone that
> has been in combat (and some that have not) will never respect her for
> recieving it, and I'm sure that feeling will be perfectly clear to
> here every day she spends in active duty.

Uhmmm...you must have missed out on all those CIB's awarded during
recent conflicts to folks who never heard a shot fired in anger? If
you think her fellow soldiers are going to hold her receiving a BS
that she didn't ask for (there is a reason they are awarded via
"orders") against her, then you must have served with a different
breed of soldier from the ones I have been fortunate enough to have
served with.

Her best bet is to get out
> whle she can, and take advantage of her new found fame, because she's
> going to be nothing but a long running joke as long as she stays in.
> By the way Brooks, the only reason I've attacked you in this email is
> in direct response to your attacking me first. I would have been
> perfectly fine discussing this politely as I have with other posters
> on this forum. But since you've chosen to come across as a rude
> "know-nothing" in your reply, I'm happy to treat you as such. Take
> care.

I am amused when one who has such a fragile self-image that they have
to resort to trashing the efforts of others then tries to take the "I
am noble" route...I am afraid you are a bit late. You have gained
nothing by trying to belittle Lynch's efforts, you have presented
incorrect statements, and I hope you are going to be able to get over
this apparently terrible blow to your self-esteem. PFC Lynch has done
nothing to you, so why don't you just let it go?

Brooks

<snip>

[M Power]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
> >Date: 7/25/03 7:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"M Power" > wrote in message
> m...
> >> Keith - it doesn't matter *how* her vehicle was wrecked, she got a
> >> Purple Heart for her injuries sustained from a vehicular accident.
> >
> >Of course it does, being injured in combat
> >
> >> Even if she wasn't in a vehicle and a RPG had landed near her and she
> >> she was injured from frag or blast directly from the explosion, she
> >> would and should recieve the same medal...a Purple Heart. The Bronze
> >> Star is not deserved for anything she has done, as the other two
> >> medals have covered everthing already.
> >>
> >
> >Thats an assumption on your part, as far as I know the exact
> >grounds for the award of that medal havent been made public
> >nor has an accurate record of what she did.
> >
> >The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can
> > be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or
> >herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service"
> >under any of three circumstances:
> >
> >"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
> >"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing
> >foreign force."
> >While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not
> >a belligerent party
> >
> >As others have pointed out LBJ got a silver star just for being
> >in a plane that was shot at, he wasnt flying it and he wasnt hit.
> >In Kosovo Bronze Stars were awarded to people who never
> >entered a combat zone including an Air Force lieutenant colonel
> >who was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at
> >Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.
> >
> >Also after the Kosovo operation the Navy awarded 69 Bronze Stars,
> >mostly to sailors aboard warships in the Adriatic and Ionian Seas.
> >At least four went to desk personnel in Naples, Italy.
> >
> >In contrast Jessica Fletcher "While engaged in military operations
> > involving conflict with an opposing foreign force." received injuries that
> >will likely leave her in pain for the rest of her life, if a bronze star
> >helps her along the way I see no problem with that.
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >
>
> Absolutely correct. I would say that the only ones qualified to critisize her
> BS are those who themselves have " engaged in military operations iinvolved in
> coinflict with an opposing enemy force" The others should just shut up.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well then I guess I'm the only here qualified to criticize her BS.
You all need to just shut up;-)

[Brian]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
> It's unfortunate that this
> happens, but it does. PFC Lynch is yet another example of crappy
> politics at work. Regardless of your *opinions* on this matter, the
> *fact* is that PFC Lynch was awarded a medal she did not deserve.

Which was my original point. I'm not trying to excoriate Lynch, it's just
depressing to see medals like Bronze Stars handed out for soldiers just
doing their jobs. I felt the same way about the 3 dolts who got captured
during the Kosovo conflict. Lynch certainly did not ask for the attention or
the medal. In fact, I'm sure she'd have rather just been sent back to the US
quietly. The Army is too busy touting her as some hero and basically
exploiting her for PR reasons.

[M Power]

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > > (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > > > (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > > > > (M Power) wrote in message >...
>
> > > > You are the one that is not making sense. In the Bosnia/Kosovo
> > > > campaign, only 204 Army BS were handed out. Out of those, only 25
> > > > enlisted Army soldiers recieved one. The lowest rank being an E-8.
> > >
> > > Whoopie. So, are you now saying she did not deserve it because she was
> > > not of a high enough grade? And what were those BS's awarded for?
> > > Meritorious service, right? Usually with no involvement in ambushes,
> > > injury, becoming a POW, acquiting oneself honorably under those
> > > conditions, etc.?
> >
> > Negative! A person of ANY grade should recieve a BS is they deserve
> > it. My point was that the only lower grade personnel that recieved it
> > did a hell of lot more than PFC Lynch did to get theirs. It's an
> > embarrassment to them, as well the medal, to give her one for her
> > *actions* when others have had to be in far more dangerous situations
> > than she wss in to recieve theirs.
>
> LOL! How many BS winners, without "V"s, as her award was, have "had to
> be in far more dangerous situations" than a freakin' *ambush* to get
> those awards?! For gosh sakes--she got the same award they routinely
> handed out to the vast *majority* of mid-level and higher officers
> during ODS who never saw a shot fired in anger, and you want to break
> her balls (or lack thereof)? Get real.
>
> And I note the quick backpeddle you have performed regarding your
> earlier claim that folks have been parachuting into DZ's and rescuing
> pilots and getting less than the BS w/o V device....not exactly a big
> surprise. Snipping your incorrect statements does not make them go
> away...


No backpeddling here. I misread his original post and thought when he
said "medic", he meant PJ. That's why I used the analogy. But,
yes..you're correct in your assumption that I don't know "off the top
of my head" what medals PJ's earned for saving downed pilots. But the
fact is neither do you, so trying to use it to help your argument
makes you look desperate.

> > >
> > > > They only recieved these for holding extremely high levels of
> > > > responsibility,
> > >
> > > Bull poopie. The entire staff of my former BN (minus one single
> > > individual) got the BS during ODS. I don't claim they did not deserve
> > > that award (without V's), but the fact of the matter is that this was
> > > a *theater level* engineer unit staff that spent the entire war in
> > > Saudi Arabia. Folks in that unit as low as E-7 also received it, and
> > > not one of them either faced an ambush or served a a PW.
> >
> > All you have done is shown more proof of how watered down the medal
> > has become. Giving one to PFC Lynch has added to this effect
> > immensely.
>
> Crap. You still seem to have a real problem understanding that the BS
> w/o V is, and has been for decades, a rather common award for
> meritorious service during a period of conflict; it appears that what
> normally rates an ARCOM during peacetime service gets the old BS if
> you happen to find yourself in-theater. Lynch's award, without the V,
> has only added to this "effect" in the minds of those who apparently
> base their own selfworth on the ribbons and awards they have garnered,
> and who can't seem to be able to read the requirements set forth in
> the regs for its award.

I do NOT believe PFC Lynch deserves a BS with a "V" or without a "V".
You think she deserves one without. I have read the 1650 manual
enough times to have a full understanding of what constitutes
deserving a BS. I simply don't believe what she went through
justifies her recieveing one. You do. So we disagree. And here we
are.

>
> >
> > >
> > > > or for saving someone's life. Jessica Lynch did none
> > > > of these thngs.
> > >
> > > The latter would normally garner a "V", which she did not get. As to
> > > meritorious service, your definition may vary with mileage, but the
> > > fact of the matter is that a bunch of them have been awarded for more
> > > mundane activities, and will be for the current operation--you can bet
> > > on it.
> > >
> > > > She got a BS for purely political reasons.
> > >
> > > How do you *know* that?
> >
> > Because it's obvious.
>
> The sun obviously rises and sets every day--does that make it
> "obvious" that the sun is rotating around the earth instead of vice
> versa?
>
> She's become america's sweetheart. She's all
> > over the news, she was given a new car, she has a free ride to
> > college, and she'll probably have a book deal and make tons of money.
> > Do you live under a rock?
>
> You sound terribly jealous and more than a bit petty over what she has
> received. Remember that she did not ASK for any of this, from getting
> wounded to receiving the BS. She did her duty, and by all accounts it
> was performed honorably under conditions that most of us will never
> encounter--that's good enough for me.


I'm not jealous at all. But I really don't like the fact that someone
so un-deserving of all this is getting so much. There are hundreds of
veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq that went through more than she
did, and got squat. A young Marine had his leg blown off from a
landmine right in front of me. He got stitched up, awarded a Purple
Heart and sent home. He's recieved nothing that comes close to what
PFC Lynch has recieved. It's unfair, and it ****es me off. If that
makes me jealous, or rude, or whatever you want to call it...so be it.
But with all of the actual heros we have in this country (other war
vets, firefighters from 911, etc...), it truly bothers me that someone
who isn't a hero at all gets treated like one. I won't apologize or
feel bad for feeling this way.


> >
> > >
> > > She
> > > > doesn't deserve to wear it,
> > >
> > > Pardon me if I don't accept your whining as definitive proof of that.
> >
> > The only whining here is from you. You're like a "no-nothing" sheep
> > that blindly follows the herd.
>
> Funny, coming from a guy who can't seem to grasp that the BS w/o V is
> not a decoration awarded for valor.
>
> Because everyone else thinks she's a
> > hero, you think she's one as well. It's pretty funny, actually;-)
>
> Nope, I don't think she is a hero; but then again, I don't think
> anybody who has the BS w/o V is a "hero", not based upon that item
> alone. Even the guys I persnally have known who had the V did not
> think of themselves as "heroic"--are you getting this award mixed up
> with the SS, DSC, and MOH, or for that matter the Soldier's Medal?
>
> > >
> > > and the BS has been watered down even more
> > > > by her receiving it. Yep, as you've said, it really is that simple.
> > >
> > > Then why can't you seem to *get* it? 'Nuff said. been fun, and the
> > > plain fact is that tomorrow when we awaken Jessica will still have her
> > > BS, and there is not a thing you can do about it (which given your
> > > poor understanding of what the award really conotates is probably a
> > > good thing....)
> >
> > Have you ever been in combat?
>
> Oh, boy! What are you, a graduate of the Art Kramer School of Those
> Combat Qualified to Belittle the Efforts of Others?
>
> Have you ever recieved a Combat "V" for
> > heroism?
>
> Nope. Had some friends who did. Also served with some who did more
> than they did and got zilch.
>
> Well I *have*.
>
> Ah....! Your reasoning now becomes clear! You have a BS w/V, and, not
> realizing that the BS w/o V is routinely awarded for rather mundane
> activities, feel that awarding Jessica the BS w/o V belittles your own
> station in life. Don't worry; those who understand the awards system
> will continue to recognize that the V denotes some degree of valor
> involved in winning the award (but not necessarilly that you are a
> self-designated "hero").

I can only laugh at this. You don't know me so I imagine it's easy
for you to be so presumptious. If you knew me at all you would
understand how ridiculous this sounds. PFC lynch could have recieved
a MOH and it wouldn't do a thing to belittle me or reduce my
self-esteem. If she deserved it, I'd be thrilled to see her get it.
I'm fine in that regard, but thank you very much for your concern:-)
I'm no hero, and never said I was.

>
> So my "understanding" far exceeds yours,
>
> No, your paranoia regarding your own selfworth and the effect of Lynch
> getting the BS upon it exceeds mine.
>
> you
> > can be sure. As far as her having the award, this is true. But her
> > time in the military will be an uncomfortable one since anyone that
> > has been in combat (and some that have not) will never respect her for
> > recieving it, and I'm sure that feeling will be perfectly clear to
> > here every day she spends in active duty.
>
> Uhmmm...you must have missed out on all those CIB's awarded during
> recent conflicts to folks who never heard a shot fired in anger? If
> you think her fellow soldiers are going to hold her receiving a BS
> that she didn't ask for (there is a reason they are awarded via
> "orders") against her, then you must have served with a different
> breed of soldier from the ones I have been fortunate enough to have
> served with.

The CIB is nothing compared to a BS, so I have no problem with
soldiers recieving it if they are in a combat zone. It's the same as
a Combat Action Ribbon. If they're in harms way, they should recieve
something for it. And if you're trying to tell me that soldiers are
going to be nothing but supportive of her, you're high. In a perfect
world, they would be. But it's not a perfect world.

>
> Her best bet is to get out
> > whle she can, and take advantage of her new found fame, because she's
> > going to be nothing but a long running joke as long as she stays in.
> > By the way Brooks, the only reason I've attacked you in this email is
> > in direct response to your attacking me first. I would have been
> > perfectly fine discussing this politely as I have with other posters
> > on this forum. But since you've chosen to come across as a rude
> > "know-nothing" in your reply, I'm happy to treat you as such. Take
> > care.
>
> I am amused when one who has such a fragile self-image that they have
> to resort to trashing the efforts of others then tries to take the "I
> am noble" route...I am afraid you are a bit late. You have gained
> nothing by trying to belittle Lynch's efforts, you have presented
> incorrect statements, and I hope you are going to be able to get over
> this apparently terrible blow to your self-esteem. PFC Lynch has done
> nothing to you, so why don't you just let it go?


That's the problem with you. I'm not trashing her "efforts". I'm
simply saying that what "efforts" she did accomplish, are not
deserving of the BS. This isn't about me, this isn't about a dreamt
up "blow to my self-esteem", this isn't about jealousy, it's about a
soldier getting a medal she didn't deserve. And about how people like
yourself are so swayed by a somewhat pretty girl that it doesn't
matter whether she deserves it or not. You'll support her regardless.
You're like the cop that won't give a speeding ticket to a pretty
girl because she smiles at you and winks her eye. What an
embarrassment it is that you were ever a soldier.

>
> Brooks
>
> <snip>

[S. Sampson]

"M Power" > wrote
>
> I'm not jealous at all. But I really don't like the fact that someone
> so un-deserving of all this is getting so much.

It's just a piece of cloth. Get a grip boy.

> There are hundreds of
> veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq that went through more than she
> did, and got squat.

They got combat pay, they earned their citizenship, what else is there?

> A young Marine had his leg blown off from a
> landmine right in front of me. He got stitched up, awarded a Purple
> Heart and sent home. He's recieved nothing that comes close to what
> PFC Lynch has recieved.

Violin sounds. You are breaking my heart.

> It's unfair, and it ****es me off.

People driving solo in a car-pool lane does the same for me.

> If that
> makes me jealous, or rude, or whatever you want to call it...so be it.

You are 8-Up my friend. Get your **** back in the sack.

> But with all of the actual heros we have in this country (other war
> vets, firefighters from 911, etc...), it truly bothers me that someone
> who isn't a hero at all gets treated like one. I won't apologize or
> feel bad for feeling this way.

She's a hero because we say she is, and your vote doesn't count.

I feel good she got a piece of cloth, but I feel even better that she
didn't get zapped. That's the truth. I feel that way about all people
who don't get zapped in the ultimate game we call armed conflict.

[Brian]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> This is quite true. It's also sad that the average person will be
> more impressed with her getting the medal and all the obvious PR
> bull**** than to be impressed with the Army if it had followed
> the proper procedures WRT medals and given her only those she had
> earned then scooting her home quietly. This is what SHOULD have
> impressed the most people.
>
> Perhaps it's really true when they say "Bull**** baffles Brains".

What would have impressed me more would have been the Army requiring combat
training to all troops ala USMC style. You didn't hear of Marine supply
convoys getting snuffed. The Lynch PR spin IMHO is to deflect attention away
from the fact that the unit was completely combat ineffective, couldn't
navigate, couldn't communicate, and had no combat escort. They were given a
map and told "See ya in Baghdad!" The Army has forgotten the idea that
everyone is a Soldier first.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/25/03 7:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"M Power" > wrote
>>
>> I'm not jealous at all. But I really don't like the fact that someone
>> so un-deserving of all this is getting so much.
>
>It's just a piece of cloth. Get a grip boy.
>
>> There are hundreds of
>> veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq that went through more than she
>> did, and got squat.
>
>They got combat pay, they earned their citizenship, what else is there?
>
>> A young Marine had his leg blown off from a
>> landmine right in front of me. He got stitched up, awarded a Purple
>> Heart and sent home. He's recieved nothing that comes close to what
>> PFC Lynch has recieved.

That is not her fault.
>

>
>
>
>> But with all of the actual heros we have in this country (other war
>> vets, firefighters from 911, etc...), it truly bothers me that someone
>> who isn't a hero at all gets treated like one.

Not a hero at all? Anyone who wears a purple heart is in a sense a hero.Are you
now trashing the Purple Heart?

>
>I feel good she got a piece of cloth, but I feel even better that she
>didn't get zapped. That's the truth. I feel that way about all people
>who don't get zapped in the ultimate game we call armed conflict.

Too few are unfamiliar wih that game.



Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Richard Lamb]

some weeny wrote

> >Well then I guess I'm the only here qualified to criticize her BS.
> >You all need to just shut up;-)
>
> No there are quite a few on this NG who faced the enemy. But very few have
> anything to say against her BS.
>
> .
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

We agree on that one, Art.

What a bunch of back stabbing wannabees.

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: Richard Lamb
>Date: 7/25/03 8:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>some weeny wrote
>
>> >Well then I guess I'm the only here qualified to criticize her BS.
>> >You all need to just shut up;-)
>>
>> No there are quite a few on this NG who faced the enemy. But very few
>have
>> anything to say against her BS.
>>
>> .
>> Arthur Kramer
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>We agree on that one, Art.
>
>What a bunch of back stabbing wannabees.


Couldn't have said it better myself. (sigh)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

(M Power) wrote in message >...
> (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > > (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > > > (M Power) wrote in message >...
> > > > > (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > > > > > (M Power) wrote in message >...
>
> > > > > You are the one that is not making sense. In the Bosnia/Kosovo
> > > > > campaign, only 204 Army BS were handed out. Out of those, only 25
> > > > > enlisted Army soldiers recieved one. The lowest rank being an E-8.
> > > >
> > > > Whoopie. So, are you now saying she did not deserve it because she was
> > > > not of a high enough grade? And what were those BS's awarded for?
> > > > Meritorious service, right? Usually with no involvement in ambushes,
> > > > injury, becoming a POW, acquiting oneself honorably under those
> > > > conditions, etc.?
> > >
> > > Negative! A person of ANY grade should recieve a BS is they deserve
> > > it. My point was that the only lower grade personnel that recieved it
> > > did a hell of lot more than PFC Lynch did to get theirs. It's an
> > > embarrassment to them, as well the medal, to give her one for her
> > > *actions* when others have had to be in far more dangerous situations
> > > than she wss in to recieve theirs.
> >
> > LOL! How many BS winners, without "V"s, as her award was, have "had to
> > be in far more dangerous situations" than a freakin' *ambush* to get
> > those awards?! For gosh sakes--she got the same award they routinely
> > handed out to the vast *majority* of mid-level and higher officers
> > during ODS who never saw a shot fired in anger, and you want to break
> > her balls (or lack thereof)? Get real.

What, you are not going to argue that all of those staff pogues
getting the BS did so for actions in close combat?! I am surprised...

> >
> > And I note the quick backpeddle you have performed regarding your
> > earlier claim that folks have been parachuting into DZ's and rescuing
> > pilots and getting less than the BS w/o V device....not exactly a big
> > surprise. Snipping your incorrect statements does not make them go
> > away...
>
>
> No backpeddling here. I misread his original post and thought when he
> said "medic", he meant PJ. That's why I used the analogy. But,
> yes..you're correct in your assumption that I don't know "off the top
> of my head" what medals PJ's earned for saving downed pilots. But the
> fact is neither do you, so trying to use it to help your argument
> makes you look desperate.

Au contraire. The last PJ I recall ("off the top of my head") who got
decorated (though I am sure some from Afghanistan and Iraqi have been
recognized by now) was the PJ in Mogadishu who got the Silver Star--a
bit more than your "they get nothin'", huh? Do a google and you should
be able to find his name; there were a couple of articles written
about it at the time.

>
> > > >
> > > > > They only recieved these for holding extremely high levels of
> > > > > responsibility,
> > > >
> > > > Bull poopie. The entire staff of my former BN (minus one single
> > > > individual) got the BS during ODS. I don't claim they did not deserve
> > > > that award (without V's), but the fact of the matter is that this was
> > > > a *theater level* engineer unit staff that spent the entire war in
> > > > Saudi Arabia. Folks in that unit as low as E-7 also received it, and
> > > > not one of them either faced an ambush or served a a PW.
> > >
> > > All you have done is shown more proof of how watered down the medal
> > > has become. Giving one to PFC Lynch has added to this effect
> > > immensely.
> >
> > Crap. You still seem to have a real problem understanding that the BS
> > w/o V is, and has been for decades, a rather common award for
> > meritorious service during a period of conflict; it appears that what
> > normally rates an ARCOM during peacetime service gets the old BS if
> > you happen to find yourself in-theater. Lynch's award, without the V,
> > has only added to this "effect" in the minds of those who apparently
> > base their own selfworth on the ribbons and awards they have garnered,
> > and who can't seem to be able to read the requirements set forth in
> > the regs for its award.
>
> I do NOT believe PFC Lynch deserves a BS with a "V" or without a "V".

Too bad your opinion does not count in the DA Form 638 (IIRC) process
that resulted in her award, huh?

> You think she deserves one without. I have read the 1650 manual
> enough times to have a full understanding of what constitutes
> deserving a BS. I simply don't believe what she went through
> justifies her recieveing one. You do. So we disagree. And here we
> are.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > or for saving someone's life. Jessica Lynch did none
> > > > > of these thngs.
> > > >
> > > > The latter would normally garner a "V", which she did not get. As to
> > > > meritorious service, your definition may vary with mileage, but the
> > > > fact of the matter is that a bunch of them have been awarded for more
> > > > mundane activities, and will be for the current operation--you can bet
> > > > on it.
> > > >
> > > > > She got a BS for purely political reasons.
> > > >
> > > > How do you *know* that?
> > >
> > > Because it's obvious.
> >
> > The sun obviously rises and sets every day--does that make it
> > "obvious" that the sun is rotating around the earth instead of vice
> > versa?
> >
> > She's become america's sweetheart. She's all
> > > over the news, she was given a new car, she has a free ride to
> > > college, and she'll probably have a book deal and make tons of money.
> > > Do you live under a rock?
> >
> > You sound terribly jealous and more than a bit petty over what she has
> > received. Remember that she did not ASK for any of this, from getting
> > wounded to receiving the BS. She did her duty, and by all accounts it
> > was performed honorably under conditions that most of us will never
> > encounter--that's good enough for me.
>
>
> I'm not jealous at all. But I really don't like the fact that someone
> so un-deserving of all this is getting so much.

In your own self-serving opinion.

There are hundreds of
> veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq that went through more than she
> did, and got squat. A young Marine had his leg blown off from a
> landmine right in front of me. He got stitched up, awarded a Purple
> Heart and sent home. He's recieved nothing that comes close to what
> PFC Lynch has recieved.

So the fact that one person, or many persons, from different
units/services were *not* recognized, however grievous that oversight
might be, justifies slogging the reputation and service of someone
like Lynch who was fortunate enough to be recognized? That does not
sound very logical to me. How many folks are slogging *your* actions
that resulted in your BS because they may have done *more* and gone
unrecognized? Should you therefore turn in your own award?


>It's unfair, and it ****es me off.

Too bad. If it makes you feel any better, a lot of awards that you
probably have NOT been aware of have also been given out, like that to
the tank BN commander from the 3rd ID who led his troops in a close
fight with Iraqi armor (he got the SS). Sure the media is on Lynch
like stink on poopie--but that does not mean SHE asked for it, nor
does it mean this is the only BS that has been awarded. Or are you
also mad at CNN because they have not done a major story on *every*
awardee?

If that
> makes me jealous, or rude, or whatever you want to call it...so be it.

Yep.

> But with all of the actual heros we have in this country (other war
> vets, firefighters from 911, etc...), it truly bothers me that someone
> who isn't a hero at all gets treated like one. I won't apologize or
> feel bad for feeling this way.

Too bad--all of that pent up anger can be bad for you, especially when
it is so badly misdirected. But hey, you are the guy who thinks being
in the KZ of an enmy ambush is no different from being in a fender
bender on I-95, right? Methinks few are agreeing with you on *any* of
this.

>
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > She
> > > > > doesn't deserve to wear it,
> > > >
> > > > Pardon me if I don't accept your whining as definitive proof of that.
> > >
> > > The only whining here is from you. You're like a "no-nothing" sheep
> > > that blindly follows the herd.
> >
> > Funny, coming from a guy who can't seem to grasp that the BS w/o V is
> > not a decoration awarded for valor.
> >
> > Because everyone else thinks she's a
> > > hero, you think she's one as well. It's pretty funny, actually;-)
> >
> > Nope, I don't think she is a hero; but then again, I don't think
> > anybody who has the BS w/o V is a "hero", not based upon that item
> > alone. Even the guys I persnally have known who had the V did not
> > think of themselves as "heroic"--are you getting this award mixed up
> > with the SS, DSC, and MOH, or for that matter the Soldier's Medal?

Well, are you?!

> >
> > > >
> > > > and the BS has been watered down even more
> > > > > by her receiving it. Yep, as you've said, it really is that simple.
> > > >
> > > > Then why can't you seem to *get* it? 'Nuff said. been fun, and the
> > > > plain fact is that tomorrow when we awaken Jessica will still have her
> > > > BS, and there is not a thing you can do about it (which given your
> > > > poor understanding of what the award really conotates is probably a
> > > > good thing....)
> > >
> > > Have you ever been in combat?
> >
> > Oh, boy! What are you, a graduate of the Art Kramer School of Those
> > Combat Qualified to Belittle the Efforts of Others?
> >
> > Have you ever recieved a Combat "V" for
> > > heroism?
> >
> > Nope. Had some friends who did. Also served with some who did more
> > than they did and got zilch.
> >
> > Well I *have*.
> >
> > Ah....! Your reasoning now becomes clear! You have a BS w/V, and, not
> > realizing that the BS w/o V is routinely awarded for rather mundane
> > activities, feel that awarding Jessica the BS w/o V belittles your own
> > station in life. Don't worry; those who understand the awards system
> > will continue to recognize that the V denotes some degree of valor
> > involved in winning the award (but not necessarilly that you are a
> > self-designated "hero").
>
> I can only laugh at this. You don't know me so I imagine it's easy
> for you to be so presumptious.

Not presumptuous. You are the fellow who has repeatedly identified the
BS as being (properly) indicative of "heroism", right?

If you knew me at all you would
> understand how ridiculous this sounds. PFC lynch could have recieved
> a MOH and it wouldn't do a thing to belittle me or reduce my
> self-esteem. If she deserved it, I'd be thrilled to see her get it.
> I'm fine in that regard, but thank you very much for your concern:-)
> I'm no hero, and never said I was.

Yeah, in a roundabout way you did. You said: "It's an embarrassment to
them, as well the medal, to give her one for her *actions* when others
have had to be in far more dangerous situations than she wss in to
recieve theirs." Which is of course patently false--the NCO's who I
knew who got the BS during ODS never got within 100 miles of the FLOT.
You also said: "...someone
who isn't a hero at all gets treated like one..." in reference to her
BS (which was not after all awarded for "heroism"). Now just what the
heck is the implication of that other than to say that if she *was* a
hero she'd deserve that BS? You see how with such comments you are
building a nice "frame of reference" for your own award, so to speak?

>
> >
> > So my "understanding" far exceeds yours,
> >
> > No, your paranoia regarding your own selfworth and the effect of Lynch
> > getting the BS upon it exceeds mine.
> >
> > you
> > > can be sure. As far as her having the award, this is true. But her
> > > time in the military will be an uncomfortable one since anyone that
> > > has been in combat (and some that have not) will never respect her for
> > > recieving it, and I'm sure that feeling will be perfectly clear to
> > > here every day she spends in active duty.
> >
> > Uhmmm...you must have missed out on all those CIB's awarded during
> > recent conflicts to folks who never heard a shot fired in anger? If
> > you think her fellow soldiers are going to hold her receiving a BS
> > that she didn't ask for (there is a reason they are awarded via
> > "orders") against her, then you must have served with a different
> > breed of soldier from the ones I have been fortunate enough to have
> > served with.
>
> The CIB is nothing compared to a BS, so I have no problem with
> soldiers recieving it if they are in a combat zone. It's the same as
> a Combat Action Ribbon. If they're in harms way, they should recieve
> something for it. And if you're trying to tell me that soldiers are
> going to be nothing but supportive of her, you're high. In a perfect
> world, they would be. But it's not a perfect world.

Most are not as petty as you seem to be.

>
> >
> > Her best bet is to get out
> > > whle she can, and take advantage of her new found fame, because she's
> > > going to be nothing but a long running joke as long as she stays in.
> > > By the way Brooks, the only reason I've attacked you in this email is
> > > in direct response to your attacking me first. I would have been
> > > perfectly fine discussing this politely as I have with other posters
> > > on this forum. But since you've chosen to come across as a rude
> > > "know-nothing" in your reply, I'm happy to treat you as such. Take
> > > care.
> >
> > I am amused when one who has such a fragile self-image that they have
> > to resort to trashing the efforts of others then tries to take the "I
> > am noble" route...I am afraid you are a bit late. You have gained
> > nothing by trying to belittle Lynch's efforts, you have presented
> > incorrect statements, and I hope you are going to be able to get over
> > this apparently terrible blow to your self-esteem. PFC Lynch has done
> > nothing to you, so why don't you just let it go?
>
>
> That's the problem with you. I'm not trashing her "efforts".

LOL! Like hell you haven't. Her being ambushed became a "traffic
accident" in your parlance (making it worse, you even tried to back up
that little verbal faux pas, to the point of going after Lord
Mountbatten?!?). That is pretty much a trash job in my book. How'd you
like it if a WWII vet told you your combat experience was nothing but
a training event?

I'm
> simply saying that what "efforts" she did accomplish, are not
> deserving of the BS. This isn't about me, this isn't about a dreamt
> up "blow to my self-esteem", this isn't about jealousy, it's about a
> soldier getting a medal she didn't deserve. And about how people like
> yourself are so swayed by a somewhat pretty girl that it doesn't
> matter whether she deserves it or not. You'll support her regardless.

What utter bull****. I happen to think that any and all of the folks
who went through that ambush, were captured, and acted in the best
traditions of the US Army while under captivity may very well equally
deserve the BS, at least as much as a staff pogue sitting in Kuwait
City for the duration does. But in the end I could really care less
WHO the grand media annoints--their recognition does not require me to
afford her any greater respect than I have for the other troops, but
unlike you it also does not force me to engage in trashing her
reputation due to misguided jealousy or animosity.


> You're like the cop that won't give a speeding ticket to a pretty
> girl because she smiles at you and winks her eye. What an
> embarrassment it is that you were ever a soldier.

From what I have so far seen of your self-centered views, you'll
excuse me if your opinion does not cause me to lose any sleep tonight.
And when I awaken, Lynch will still have her BS, the sun will rise,
the birds will sing, and all will be right in the world...except for
that whining sound coming from your direction.

Brooks

>
> >
> > Brooks
> >
> > <snip>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 7/26/03 3:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>Come on! Were you guys ever in the army? You're asking for purity with
>respect to medals that exists nowhere else. Jessie deserves her Bronze
>as much as the average GI ever deserved a medal. You're talking like a
>bunch of flight simmers debating whether they could whup Erich
>Hartmann's ass, when they've never even taken a plane off the ground.
>
>Good on you, Jessie! You're cute as a button and I hope you didn't
>hurt too much those days when you didn't know whether you were going
>to live or die. Welcome home, kid, and wear that medal proudly all the
>days of your life. I'm proud that you wore the uniform, sweetheart,
>and I'm glad I never had to go through what you did.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

Oustanding post. The wannabees sure are getting tiresome.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[TekTeam26]

>You're comparing apples to oranges. She got into a auto accident.

You are assuming that the Army wants the world to know the truth about how
Jessica really got all of those injuries, aren't you? Already, Jessica's sister
has asked to be released from her enlistment contract. Do you think that she
knows something about what happened to Jessica that the rest of you don't know?
How many potential female recruits would walk away from the recruiting office
once they learned what really happened to Jessica...saying to themselves that
they did NOT want to be the next Jessica Lynch? Think about it, Jessica has not
been treated in the military hospitals as a motor vehicle accident victim. She
has been treated just like a rape and torture victim. In case you didn't read
the latest issue of Newsweek, it has now been reported that Jessica was
captured standing upright...hardly possible with two broken legs from a truck
wreck.... The truth will come out....and many will not like it....

Jerry Hall

[[email protected]]

> I'm proud that you wore the uniform, sweetheart,
>>and I'm glad I never had to go through what you did.
>>
>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
>Oustanding post. The wannabees sure are getting tiresome.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Whaaatever...just seems that you guys are looking at short term
gain at the expense of long term. If you want to degrade the
'value' of your medals then why should I care?...fill yer
boots...
--

-Gord.

[M Power]

Since I have more important things to do than argue every day, unlike
yourself, I'm putting an end to this exchange. So reply to your
heart's content, because I'm done. The facts are as follows:

-PFC Lynch did nothing to deserve a BS. I know this, and so does
every other military person that I've spoken with. You however, do
not.

-You support PFC Lynch because you find her attractive.

-You don't presently understand, and never will, what a "hero" really
is.

-You're an idiot.

Take care!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Since I have more important things to do than argue every day, unlike
> yourself, I'm putting an end to this exchange. So reply to your
> heart's content, because I'm done. The facts are as follows:
>
> -PFC Lynch did nothing to deserve a BS. I know this, and so does
> every other military person that I've spoken with. You however, do
> not.
>
> -You support PFC Lynch because you find her attractive.
>
> -You don't presently understand, and never will, what a "hero" really
> is.
>
> -You're an idiot.
>

Those all appear to be opinions to me, not facts.

As far as you and every military person you've spoken to knowing that PFC
Lynch did nothing to deserve a BS, how is it that you can know that? To my
knowledge no full account of the action she was involved in has been
released.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Gord Beaman" ) wrote in message >...
> "Brian" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> It's unfortunate that this
> >> happens, but it does. PFC Lynch is yet another example of crappy
> >> politics at work. Regardless of your *opinions* on this matter, the
> >> *fact* is that PFC Lynch was awarded a medal she did not deserve.
> >
> >Which was my original point. I'm not trying to excoriate Lynch, it's just
> >depressing to see medals like Bronze Stars handed out for soldiers just
> >doing their jobs. I felt the same way about the 3 dolts who got captured
> >during the Kosovo conflict. Lynch certainly did not ask for the attention or
> >the medal. In fact, I'm sure she'd have rather just been sent back to the US
> >quietly. The Army is too busy touting her as some hero and basically
> >exploiting her for PR reasons.
> >
> >
> This is quite true.

No, it is not, Gord. You are buying into the argument of a guy who has
classified the ambush as a "traffic accident", tried to blame Lynch
for her own predicament, and failed to acknowledge that Lynch has not
been the only 507th Maint Co troop who received the BS (a Sgt.
Campbell got one, along with a Sgt Rose, who also garnered the "V"; by
my not necessarily complete count, at least two other soldiers from
the 507th who were captured received BS's and one, a Pvt Miller,
received the Silver Star--not bad for a "traffic accident"). Mr Power
has the concept of the Bronze Star all screwed up--but the fact is
that without the "V", as in this case, it is an award for "meritorious
*service*" (hence the verbage in the US Army description of the award
criteria, "Awards may be made to recognize single acts of merit or
meritorious service"), has been, and is, given to folks who've never
seen a shot fired in anger and served in staff and support roles far
behind the lines. Nor is this a new twist to the award--the record
holder, a MG named Pendleton, received *nine* BS's during his career,
and only *one* of those had a "V" device attached.

From the 8 June 2000 Stars and Stripes:

"A recent review by the Stars and Stripes of the way the Bronze Star
was awarded to U.S. personnel involved in the airstrikes on Yugoslavia
found that the Air Force awarded 185 of the medals, the vast majority
going to officers and top commanders. Only 25 enlisted Air Force
troops got the nod. Of all the medals awarded, only one in 10 actually
was in the combat zone. In the Navy, most of the 69 Bronze Stars
awarded went to officers out in the fleet where Yugoslavia's navy made
the Adriatic and Ionian seas part of the combat zone; although at
least four were awarded to staff officers in Naples, Italy, for work
far from harm's way. The Army, which had 5,000 troops positioned in
Albania, also part of the combat zone, awarded no Bronze Stars."

And you think Lynch demonstrated less exemplary service than *they*
did? How about the other soldiers who received awards of the BS in the
507th--are you going to yank their ribbons away as well? On what
grounds?


It's also sad that the average person will be
> more impressed with her getting the medal and all the obvious PR
> bull**** than to be impressed with the Army if it had followed
> the proper procedures WRT medals and given her only those she had
> earned then scooting her home quietly. This is what SHOULD have
> impressed the most people.

Why all of this animosity for a *service* award that is routinely
given to staff pogues, including non-officers (though not quite as
routinely), and has also been awarded to many of her fellow unit
members without engendering all of this hoopla? The problem I have
seen in these threads is that most folks (surprisingly for a military
related newsgroup) can't seem to grasp just how commonplace the BS as
a service award really is, and that her award in no way implies
"heroism" on her part.

>
> Perhaps it's really true when they say "Bull**** baffles Brains".

Only so far as the bullship baffling those brains that can't seem to
grasp what the BS w/o V device really is.

>
> Or "We get the kind of government that we deserve". Gee.

Huh?

Brooks

[B2431]

>
>> I'm proud that you wore the uniform, sweetheart,
>>>and I'm glad I never had to go through what you did.
>>>
>>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>>
>>Oustanding post. The wannabees sure are getting tiresome.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Whaaatever...just seems that you guys are looking at short term
>gain at the expense of long term. If you want to degrade the
>'value' of your medals then why should I care?...fill yer
>boots...
>--
>
>-Gord.
>

I agree with all three of you. Those who were never there will never understand
that a combat atta boy medal for service without valour is needed.

Gord is also correct in that we do hand out way too many decorations on the
whole. I won't address specific other than to say look at the achievment and
commendation medals as they are shovelled out now versus 20 years ago.

There is one ribbon issued that defies logic. Whether you go through basic,
OSC, OTS, ROTC, the li'l 2 week orientation for medical/legal officers etc you
get a cute li'l bitty ribbon that says you are authorized to wear the uniform.

I find it mildy amusing that a U.S.A.F. serviceman,non flying, enlisted or
officer, is likely to have more confetti on his chest after 4 years man who
served in the infantry in combat during WW2 in the U.S.
Army.

On another subject if the U.S. Army had been at Rorke's Drift instead of the
Brits the commander would have got the MOH, the officers and a few enlisted
would have got the silver star and some of the rest would have got the bronze
star. IIRC there were 11 VCs awarded. Most of those went to the enlisteds.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Brian]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> I find it mildy amusing that a U.S.A.F. serviceman,non flying, enlisted or
> officer, is likely to have more confetti on his chest after 4 years man
who
> served in the infantry in combat during WW2 in the U.S.
> Army.

The only way to really figure crap out any more is to look at the ribbons as
a whole. I've seen quite a few Navy types with lot's of Navy Commendation
Medals, etc. and no sea service ribbon. With the Army it's a little more
difficult but look for campaign ribbons (ie. NATO medal (Bosnia), SW Asia,
Armed Forces Expeditionary). It won't let you know if they've done combat,
but at least you know they've had to endure some amount of hardship.

[Mary Shafer]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:22:53 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:

> I think there's a real issue about degrading the bronze star but I
> dont think the award to Jessica Fletcher is it.

Lynch, not Fletcher. You're thinking of "Murder, She Wrote", I think.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."
Anonymous US fighter pilot

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
Mary Shafer > wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:22:53 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>
> > I think there's a real issue about degrading the bronze star but I
> > dont think the award to Jessica Fletcher is it.
>
> Lynch, not Fletcher. You're thinking of "Murder, She Wrote", I think.

You know - Jessica Fletcher. The greatest serial killer in history.
Not only did she kill someone once a week, she kept convincing people
that somebody else did it.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Kevin Brooks]

(M Power) wrote in message >...
> Since I have more important things to do than argue every day, unlike
> yourself, I'm putting an end to this exchange. So reply to your
> heart's content, because I'm done. The facts are as follows:
>
> -PFC Lynch did nothing to deserve a BS. I know this, and so does
> every other military person that I've spoken with. You however, do
> not.

One wonders how you "know" this in spite of the fact that no official
record of her actions, or captivity, have been released to the
public...shoot from the hip much?

>
> -You support PFC Lynch because you find her attractive.

LOL! Nope. I mean yes, she is I guess attractive, but they don't give
out the BS for looks.

>
> -You don't presently understand, and never will, what a "hero" really
> is.

I do know it is not defined by having received a BS w/o V, but
apparently that is gonna be news to you...

>
> -You're an idiot.

My wife sometimes shares that view.

>
> Take care!

Recommend you look into the "increasing your self-esteem" books
available in your local bookstore--they might be of help to you, at
least to the point where you won't feel it necessary to try to tear
down PFC Lynch in a misguided attempt to bolster your own...

Brooks

[IBM]

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in
m:

> "Gord Beaman" ) wrote in message
> >...
>> "Brian" > wrote:

[snip]

The US tendency to award medals at the drop of a hat
is baffling to those of us with roots in the Common-
wealth armed services.
Men of my fathers generation who were on active service
and in harms way 1939-1945 came home with a few campaign
medals or a mention in dispatches ( for not getting shot
up after losing ones way as it happened ). Mind you looking at
some ancient photos of staff in a place Gord might be
familiar with shows a large number of DFCs among the post
war inmates of the Annapolis Valley's contribution to
world peace.
A great uncle was gassed at Ypres and was involved in
( one or perhaps two ) suicidal cavalry charges. He also
got shot at least once. For that he got one medal ( an MM )
plus the campaign gongs for 1915-1919 period which is approx
one more medal than his brother ( who was dragged off to a
prosthetics workshop rather than being sent to the trenches )
got.

IBM

__________________________________________________ ____________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Keith Willshaw]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:22:53 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>
> > I think there's a real issue about degrading the bronze star but I
> > dont think the award to Jessica Fletcher is it.
>
> Lynch, not Fletcher. You're thinking of "Murder, She Wrote", I think.
>
>
Actually I was thinking of lynch mob, which seems to be the mentality
of some of the more extreme posters here.

Keith

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: PFC Lynch gets a Bronze Star?
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 7/27/03 4:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:22:53 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > I think there's a real issue about degrading the bronze star but I
>> > dont think the award to Jessica Fletcher is it.
>>
>> Lynch, not Fletcher. You're thinking of "Murder, She Wrote", I think.
>>
>>
>Actually I was thinking of lynch mob, which seems to be the mentality
>of some of the more extreme posters here.
>
>Keith
>
>


Jealousy is a terrible thing to witness.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

> (ArtKramr) wrote:

[snip]

>Jealousy is a terrible thing to witness.

Narcissism is a terrible thing to witness too, Kramer.

>Arthur Kramer
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art Kramer: believes that others envy him, needs
admiration and lacks empathy for others...

-Mike Marron

[Kevin Brooks]

IBM > wrote in message >...
> (Kevin Brooks) wrote in
> m:
>
> > "Gord Beaman" ) wrote in message
> > >...
> >> "Brian" > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> The US tendency to award medals at the drop of a hat
> is baffling to those of us with roots in the Common-
> wealth armed services.
> Men of my fathers generation who were on active service
> and in harms way 1939-1945 came home with a few campaign
> medals or a mention in dispatches ( for not getting shot
> up after losing ones way as it happened ). Mind you looking at
> some ancient photos of staff in a place Gord might be
> familiar with shows a large number of DFCs among the post
> war inmates of the Annapolis Valley's contribution to
> world peace.
> A great uncle was gassed at Ypres and was involved in
> ( one or perhaps two ) suicidal cavalry charges. He also
> got shot at least once. For that he got one medal ( an MM )
> plus the campaign gongs for 1915-1919 period which is approx
> one more medal than his brother ( who was dragged off to a
> prosthetics workshop rather than being sent to the trenches )
> got.
>
> IBM

The US military's tendency to give out medals has become a bit
extreme. But your examples are a bit off the mark, IMO, since at the
time of WWI and even into WWII the awrds were much more controlled. As
late as WWII the average troop could expect to receive only the
campaign/theater awards for which he qualified and maybe a Good
Conduct medal, IIRC. Bronze Stars carried more meaning in WWII than
they routinely do now. Korea saw some erosion in this control, and
Vietnam opened the floodgates (I served with an NCO who as a unit mail
clerk made the obligitory number of helo flights and managed to get
the Air Medal--an award for which my father had to fly IIRC five or
ten real combat missions in the western Pacific to get). I have no
idea how many AM's my brother got in Vietnam--as a medevac pilot, he
pulled plenty of combat sorties (IIRC he had some 300 hours of
"combat" time by the time he left), and I remember he had clusters out
the wazoo on his ribbon. Post-Vietnam the problem has gotten worse, in
many but not all cases (there were definite abuses during the Grenada
fiasco, and the current procedure for awarding the CIB is ludicrous).
I served on active duty (peacetime) back in the 80's with a battalion
that as a practice never made awards to officers except on their
departure; hence I left them as a first lieutenant with my ubiquitous
"Roy G. Biv", or "Rainbow" ribbon (the Army Service Ribbon, given to
all who can maintain a more-or-less normal body temperature throughout
their initial training period) and an ARCOM that they mailed to me
after I left--I would not consider two ribbons excessive, nor would I
have called it miserly. We had no gripes with that policy. My next
unit presented awards much more freely, as did the parent HQ's; within
five or six years I had three AAM's and around five ARCOM's, along
with additional service/training awards--none of which really meant
much at all.

Brooks

[Tom Cervo]

>> I find it mildy amusing that a U.S.A.F. serviceman,non flying, enlisted or
>> officer, is likely to have more confetti on his chest after 4 years man
>who
>> served in the infantry in combat during WW2 in the U.S.

Barrett Tillman reported that Marion Carl, at the end of his career, thought
the system had been so debased that he would only wear medal ribbons for actual
awards for heroism, and wartime campaign ribbons. Official portraits of him
from 1970 show him as a Major General with four rows of ribbons, starting with
a Navy Cross with a Star in lieu of a second award.

[The CO]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...

> On another subject if the U.S. Army had been at Rorke's Drift instead
of the
> Brits the commander would have got the MOH, the officers and a few
enlisted
> would have got the silver star and some of the rest would have got the
bronze
> star. IIRC there were 11 VCs awarded. Most of those went to the
enlisteds.

Well, there were only 2 officers there, and both got the VC, deservedly
I feel..
Interestingly, the next highest in rank (Colour Sergeant Bourne) did
not.

The CO

[Michael Petukhov]

"Brian" > wrote in message >...
> Did I hear correctly on the news that PFC Lynch was awarded a Bronze Star
> along with a POW Medal and Purple Heart? I can understand the last two but a
> freakin Bronze Star? What act of heroism did she perform? Don't get me
> wrong, I'm not saying she did anything wrong but isn't the Army getting a
> little generous with the Bronze Star?

http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=13353&lang=en

What Really Happened to Jessica Lynch?

As Private Jessica Lynch arrives in West Virgina Democracy Now! takes
a look at the media coverage of her capture and "rescue" in Iraq. We
speak with Washington Post ombudsman Michael Getler and listen to an
earlier interview with London Times reporter Richard Lloyd Parry.

Private Jessica Lynch is home. She arrived to her rural West Virginia
community yesterday amid bristling flags, yellow ribbons and TV news
trucks.

She suffers from multiple broken bones and other injuries and is able
to walk with the aid of a walker but still has trouble standing.

On Monday, she was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart and Prisoner
of War medals.

Jessica Lynch first gained national headlines when she was captured in
the first week of the Iraq invasion. On March 23rd, her Army
maintenance unit was ambushed near the Iraqi city of Nasiriyah.

11 U.S. soldiers were killed and five others captured in the attack.
Lynch was taken to hospital by Iraqi soldiers and held for 9 days
before being rescued.

The press initially reported that Lynch fought fiercely during the
attack, getting stabbed and shot several times as she fended off her
assailants. News articles described her emptying her M-16 into Iraqi
soldiers, killing several of them before finally being caught.

Initial reports of her subsequent rescue 9 days later were also
dramatic. They described Army Rangers and Navy Seals storming the
Nassiriyah hospital just after midnight. The press reported they came
under fire but managed to find Lynch and whisk her away by helicopter.
A video of the rescue captured by the military's night-vision camera
was released to the public.

Since then, enterprising reporters have shown that the reality of both
her capture and rescue were very different.

New reports concluded that Lynch was injured when her Humvee crashed
into another vehicle in the convoy after being hit by a
rocket-propelled grenade.

Reports also found that the convoy blundered into the ambush after
getting lost and many of the unit's weapons malfunctioned during the
battle.

Of her rescue, Iraqi doctors at the hospital said later that the U.S.
has faced no resistance and the operation had been over-dramatized.

The Washington Post was the first to report the heroic version of
Lynch's capture. The paper came under sharp criticism from its own
ombudsman, Michael Getler, for its handling of the story. He was the
first U.S. journalist to question the original reported version of
events on April 20th. The Post later published a 5,000 word expose on
Lynch's capture completely debunking their original version of the
story.

Days earlier the London Times' Richard Lloyd Parry had exposed the
true story of Lynch's rescue. This was followed by a report from the
BBC's John Kampfner which was widely read.

Jessica Lynch, reading a statement after arriving in Elizabeth, West
Virginia yesterday.
Richard Lloyd Parry, foreign correspondent for the London Times
interviewed on Democracy Now! on April 28th, 2003 regarding his
article in the London Times: "So Who Really Did Save Private Jessica?"
Michael Getler, Washington Post ombudsman.

TRANSCRIPT

AMY GOODMAN: You are listening to Democracy Now! as we turn now to our
second story -- Private Jessica Lynch has come home.

TAPE:

JESSICA LYNCH: Hi, thank you for being here. It's great to be home. I
would like to say thank you to everyone who hoped and prayed for my
safe return. For a long time I had no idea so many people knew I'd
been missing. But I read thousands of letters, many of them from
children, who offered messages of hope and faith. I would like to
thank the people in this community, especially those who gave
donations to the Lynch fund and who volunteered their time and skills
to work on my family's house. Please allow me to thank the doctors,
nurses and staff members of Walter Reed Army Medical Center for the
excellent care they gave me. I would like to thank the staff of
Landstuhl Medical Center in Germany for their care and support. I
would like to thank the Fisher Foundation, Governor Bob Wise and
United States Senator Jay Rockefeller for the roles they played in
helping my family to be with me in Germany and Washington. I'm also
grateful to several Iraqi citizens who helped save my life while I was
in their hospital. And then a unit of our Special Forces soldiers that
saved my life. I want to thank Sgt. Ruben Contreras. Ruben, you never
let me give up. When I wanted to quit p-t (physical therapy), you kept
me going. And you're my inspiration and I love you. I'm proud to be a
soldier in the Army. I'm proud to have served with the 507th. I'm
happy that some of the soldiers I served with made it home alive and
it hurts that some of my company didn't. Most of all, I miss Lori
Piestewa. She was my best friend. She fought beside me and it was an
honor to have served with her. Lori will always remain in my heart. I
read thousands of stories that said when I was captured, I said, "I'm
an American soldier too." Those stories were right. Those were my
words. I am an American soldier too. Thank you for this welcome and
it's great to be home.

AMY GOODMAN: And that was Private Jessica Lynch returning to her rural
West Virginia community yesterday amid rippling flags, yellow ribbons,
TV news trucks. She suffers from multiple broken bones and other
injuries, is able to walk with the aid of a walker but still has
trouble standing. On Monday, she was awarded the Bronze Star, the
Purple Heart, and the Prisoner of War medals. Jessica Lynch first
gained national headlines when she was captured in the first week of
the Iraq invasion. On March 23rd, her Army maintenance unit was
ambushed near the Iraqi city of Nasiriyah. 11 U.S. soldiers were
killed and five others captured in the attack. Lynch was taken to
hospital by Iraqi soldiers and held separately for 9 days from other
patients as she was being taken care of by Iraqi doctors. The press
initially reported that Lynch fought fiercely during the attack,
getting stabbed and shot several times as she fended off her
assailants. News articles described her emptying her M-16 into Iraqi
soldiers, killing several of them before finally getting caught. The
initial reports of her subsequent rescue 9 days later were also
dramatic. They described Army Rangers and Navy Seals storming the
Nasiriyah hospital just after midnight. The press reported they came
under fire but managed to find Lynch and whisk her away by helicopter.
The military provided video of the rescue with it's night-vision
camera and released it to the public. Since then, enterprising
reporters have shown, the reality of both Jessica's capture and
rescue, were very different. New reports concluded that Jessica Lynch
was injured when her Humvee crashed into another vehicle in the
convoy. Reports also found that the convoy blundered into the ambush
after getting lost and many of the unit's weapons malfunctioned during
the battle. Of her rescue, Iraqi doctors at the hospital said later
that the U.S. had faced no resistance when they came in.

Lynch herself was not quoted by the television at the time, did not
comment on what had taken place as she was recovering. Although her
father did say, after the Pentagon said she had suffered from amnesia
and could not comment on the attack, her father said she did not
suffer from amnesia.

The Washington Post was the first to report the heroic version of
Lynch's capture. The paper came under sharp criticism from its own
Ombudsman Michael Getler for its handling of the story. He will join
us by telephone, the first US journalist to question the reported
version of events on April 20. The Post later published a 5,000 word
expose on Lynch's capture completely debunking their original version
of the story. We're going go to break. When we come back, we're going
to play the first piece that Democracy Now! ran before the B.B.C. and
Washington Post expose. It was with London Times reporter Richard
Lloyd Perry who found a very different story when he investigated the
so-called rescue of Jessica Lynch from the hospital. That's after this
break.

AMY GOODMAN: You are listening to Democracy Now!," The War and Peace
Report. Coming up, Lynne Stewart will join us in just a few minutes. A
judge has dropped terror charges against her. We'll also talk to
congress member Bernie Sanders about the U.S.A. Patriot Act, about a
bill that's been introduced that would take librarians out of the
cross hairs of the bill. But right now we're going to return to that
first report Democracy Now! did with London Times reporter Richard
Lloyd Perry after he visited the hospital in Nasiriyah where Jessica
Lynch was being treated.

TAPE:

RICHARD LLOYD PERRY: When I was in Nasiriyah, this was a week or so
ago, I stayed in the General Hospital, principally that's the safest
place in town, protected both by Iraqis as well as by a small number
of American marines. And while I was staying there, I got to talking
to one of the hospital doctors and asked about Jessica Lynch because
this, of course, was the hospital from which she had been plucked by
U.S. special forces in those very dramatic pictures that were shown
while the war was still going on.
And this doctor and others of his colleagues told a very interesting
story. They, too, had heard the official American version which was
put out in Qatar. And they described the exciting infrared pictures of
special forces going in, walking through the corridor of the hospital,
and carrying this injured woman out. But to them, it was a very -- it
was all rather amusing. They were rather sardonic about it because
they said that among other things, there was no resistance at the
hospital. The Iraqi soldiers and commanders who have been there, had
fled several hours before -- really the day before, so these special
forces didn't have to fight their way in at all. They walked in. And
they also said that although they and civilian doctors had been
struggling really rather hard for a week or so, to save Jessica
Lynch's life and to give her the best treatment that they could, that
they were treated really very badly by these soldiers who came in. A
number of the doctors as well as two patients, including one paralyzed
patient, were handcuffed, shackled to beds, had their hands tied. One
of the senior hospital administrators was actually taken away in the
U.S. special forces helicopters with Jessica Lynch and held for three
days in the prisoner of war pen in the sun. And they felt this was
really very poor treatment for the honest job they had tried to do in
saving her life. At the very least, they were getting little credit
for the job they'd done.

AMY GOODMAN: How did the story we came to know in the United States --
how was it constructed?

RICHARD LLOYD PERRY: Well I saw -- I think like most people on one of
the live briefings from Doha -- I can't remember which particular
general it was doing the briefing, but it clearly -- it came at a
stage in the war when they were a bit short of good news to put out.
And I remember at the time that clearly a lot of thought and
preparation had gone into this -- this presentation. You know the
story was told from the point of view of the rescuing forces. There
was very little mention made of any -- any of the Iraqis in the
hospital or both on the Iraqi side. And it was portrayed as a -- a
very dangerous mission carried out to save this, you know, this young
rather attractive young woman. And it was clearly a P.R. coup at the
time. But it wasn't like that. As far as I can remember, no one at the
time really questioned the Pentagon account that had been put out. And
because there was fighting still going on, it was difficult at that
point to get to the other side. But it struck me as interesting and
significant that these doctors had their own story to tell.

AMY GOODMAN: Richard Lloyd Perry of the London times. He -- he
reported that in the paper on April 16.- We had him on, on April 28.
Just before that, Michael Getler raised a question about his own
newspaper's reporting in The Washington Post. And he joins us on the
line right now. Welcome to Democracy Now!. Michael Getler.

MICHAEL GETLER: Thank you for having me.

AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you with us. You're the ombudsman of
The Washington Post. Can you talk about the evolution of this story
and how your newspaper and so much of the rest of the press in the
world got this story wrong?

MICHAEL GETLER: Well, I will. I'll be glad to. But I should make one
point on your previous segment --actually The Washington Post, its
initial story was at the heart of when she was first captured, the
heart of this dispute. But on April 15, I think prior to the report
you just aired, it was also Washington Post correspondent Keith
Richberg who got to the hospital in Iraq where Private Lynch was being
held, and reported based on doctors, on the record comments, that she
had not been shot, she hadn't been stabbed, that she was injured in
the humvee accident and that she had been well cared for. So The Post
actually had that story first as well. But the problem was that it was
back on page A-15 or A-17, I don't remember exactly where. It was way
back in the paper and it was based on Iraqi sources and of course, it
didn't get the attention that it otherwise might have gotten. But The
Post did -- the foreign correspondents actually did begin to pick away
at this story before I believe anybody else did.

The original story in The Post appeared on April 3. And it was very
dramatic. It had a headline She was fighting to the death, and it
talked about, as you said earlier that she was part of the ambush, she
continued firing at the Iraqis even after she had sustained multiple
gunshot wounds and watched several other soldiers die. That she
actually killed several Iraqis and that she was stabbed as they closed
in to her position. Which was obviously a very, very dramatic story at
the time when there was really no good news coming out of the -- out
of the war front. The original story did have cautions in it, but it
was further down, it made clear that this -- that this information was
coming from sort of battlefield intelligence and monitored
communications and from Iraqi sources in Nasiriyah whose -- they said
whose reliability has yet to be assessed. So, and the Pentagon never
actually confirmed it. They didn't deny it, but they didn't confirm
it.

My initial reaction to the story was that it should have been written
more cautiously because they were these caveats further down in it.
And that the story should not have been presented in what really did
look like a propagandistic-type of account. But in any event, the
reporters clearly were -- were – these are experienced reporters and I
never had any doubt that they were told what they were told. It's a
question initially of whether or not they should have been more
cautious and careful in how it was presented. But the -- very soon
after that first report appeared, there was the -- there was the
report from Germany from the Landstuhl Hospital where Lynch had been
taken, by the commander of the army hospital there, this Colonel David
Rubenstein and he said the medical evidence did not say any of her
wounds were caused by gunshots or stabbing. That also, which I thought
was important, was seriously underplayed by the paper. It was included
inside another story way in the back of the paper. But it was also on
television and readers -- readers of The Post got very angry after
that, where they felt that that original story had been very
misleading and it was propagandized and it looked like an agenda was
being pursued there. And that's when the controversy really took off.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Michael Getler, ombudsman at The
Washington Post. Also very important to point out when this story came
out at the time of this so-called quagmire when the Bush
administration was getting a lot of heat for getting, what looked like
bogged down in Iraq. It was the myth that came out at that time. Also,
now CBS news is apologizing for offering Private Jessica Lynch quite a
deal if they could do the CBS movie on her. They would -- they wanted
to do a CBS news exclusive and they offered her a made for TV movie,
an MTV special that might include a special concert in her hometown.
Now they are saying they may have overstepped when they raised the
possibility of the movie deal and other entertainment-related
incentives. Your response to that?

MICHAEL GETLER: Well, you know, my focus has always been on the
journalism and all the columns I've written about this, I've tried to
make clear that this has nothing to do with Private Lynch who was a
courageous young soldier and who has been through a terrible ordeal no
matter what happened. My concerns have been with the journalism
surrounding the story. And that's where I think there were some flaws.
And The Post. did move to do a very, very lengthy investigative piece
2 1/2 months later that sought to correct the record before the army
investigation came out. I was also somewhat critical of that, because
it actually put the real correction – saying that she wasn't shot, she
wasn't stabbed—actually it was on the jump page on the continuation
inside. And it still didn't quote anybody on that point, even though
there had been a Defense Department official quoted in The New York
Times saying exactly the same thing about four days earlier. And also,
the fault I found, it suggested that The Post was not alone in its
phrasing. It talks about initial news reports including those in The
Washington Post and actually The Post was the exclusive – had the
exclusive on that first story about the details of her capture. So I
really -- I don't want to comment on other news organizations and what
they did or may have done or are planning to do. I think in general,
the press was quite slow to try and go back on this story which seemed
fishy, almost from the start, as soon as Colonel Rubenstein made his
comment.

AMY GOODMAN: Michael Getler, thank you for being with us, ombudsman of
The Washington Post.

To purchase an audio or video copy of this entire program, call 1
(800) 881-2359.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/23/1558215

Source: Michael Getler/Richard Lloyd Parry/Amy Goodman Demcracy Now!

[Keith Willshaw]

"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om...
> "Brian" > wrote in message
>...
> > Did I hear correctly on the news that PFC Lynch was awarded a Bronze
Star
> > along with a POW Medal and Purple Heart? I can understand the last two
but a
> > freakin Bronze Star? What act of heroism did she perform? Don't get me
> > wrong, I'm not saying she did anything wrong but isn't the Army getting
a
> > little generous with the Bronze Star?
>
> http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=13353&lang=en
>
> What Really Happened to Jessica Lynch?

This is all OLD OLD stuff Michael, its been done to death over the
last few weeks.

Keith

[sirius]

> > > > Did I hear correctly on the news that PFC Lynch was awarded a
Bronze
> > Star
> > > > along with a POW Medal and Purple Heart? I can understand the
last two
> > but a
> > > > freakin Bronze Star? What act of heroism did she perform? Don't
get me
> > > > wrong, I'm not saying she did anything wrong but isn't the Army
getting
> > a
> > > > little generous with the Bronze Star?


Remember the four U.S. Army guys who got lost in Kosovo in 1999 and were
captured and held for a while during the NATO bombing campaign? They
each got six (6) medals.

For getting lost.

Jeff