Hess's Me 110

[M. J. Powell]

I am reading a new book on Hess. The author makes a few startling
claims.

1. "The fuselage of the Deputy-Fuehrer's Me-110 was half a metre longer
than that of a normal production machine, and along its top a thin
copper tube ran from the cockpit to an added -on half-metre section
midway to the tail. Within this tube ran a steel cable connected to a
handle near the pilot's seat........pulling this handle would release an
inflatable rubber dinghy complete with survival facilities..."

Does anyone believe this? The Me-110 was a 3 seater, and would have had
a crew dinghy as standard?

2. Two Hurricanes were scrambled from Aldergrove (Northern Ireland) to
intercept and found him as he reached the Firth of Clyde. (Hess
overshot). Time, a few minutes after 10:45pm. Hess flew at low level.
Low enough to create 'a nerve-wracking roar

Is it likely that the two Hurricanes would have found a low level
intruder in the dark at 10:45pm 10th May '41 at 55 deg North?

3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used for
navigation purposes.

Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the country
would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is this
likely?

4. 'Hess easily out-ran the three Spitfires which had been sent up over
the east coast to intercept him' [my paraphrase]

Me-110 out-running a Spitfire?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Keith Willshaw]

"M. J. Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> I am reading a new book on Hess. The author makes a few startling
> claims.
>
> 1. "The fuselage of the Deputy-Fuehrer's Me-110 was half a metre longer
> than that of a normal production machine, and along its top a thin
> copper tube ran from the cockpit to an added -on half-metre section
> midway to the tail. Within this tube ran a steel cable connected to a
> handle near the pilot's seat........pulling this handle would release an
> inflatable rubber dinghy complete with survival facilities..."
>
> Does anyone believe this? The Me-110 was a 3 seater, and would have had
> a crew dinghy as standard?
>

The Me-110 was a two seater but we do know that the aircraft Hess used was
a modified ME-110 E-1 fighter bomber aircraft, rather than the Me-110C
series
familiar from the BOB. My references state it was a development of the Bf
110D-3
convoy escort with special overwater provision and extra fuel. So yep it
seems
believable

> 2. Two Hurricanes were scrambled from Aldergrove (Northern Ireland) to
> intercept and found him as he reached the Firth of Clyde. (Hess
> overshot). Time, a few minutes after 10:45pm. Hess flew at low level.
> Low enough to create 'a nerve-wracking roar
>
> Is it likely that the two Hurricanes would have found a low level
> intruder in the dark at 10:45pm 10th May '41 at 55 deg North?
>

Sunset in Glasgow on May 10 is around 9.15PM BST however I believe
during the war they were on double summertime so 10.45 wouldnt be
long after sunset.

I have heard this story it before and its usually attributed to Czech
writer
Jiri Rajlich who stateed 2 pilots of 245 Czech squadron told him the
story after the war.

I'd say its of doubtful provenance but not impossible.

> 3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used for
> navigation purposes.
>
> Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the country
> would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is this
> likely?
>

It happened, Knickebein was indeed based on the Lorenz system and
was used for navigation

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/tactics/knickebein/knickebein.html

> 4. 'Hess easily out-ran the three Spitfires which had been sent up over
> the east coast to intercept him' [my paraphrase]
>
> Me-110 out-running a Spitfire?

Its possible if he had been cruising at high altitude and pushed the nose
down and
crossed the coast in a shallow dive.

Keith

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Keith Willshaw
> writes
>
>"M. J. Powell" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I am reading a new book on Hess. The author makes a few startling
>> claims.
>>
>> 1. "The fuselage of the Deputy-Fuehrer's Me-110 was half a metre longer
>> than that of a normal production machine, and along its top a thin
>> copper tube ran from the cockpit to an added -on half-metre section
>> midway to the tail. Within this tube ran a steel cable connected to a
>> handle near the pilot's seat........pulling this handle would release an
>> inflatable rubber dinghy complete with survival facilities..."
>>
>> Does anyone believe this? The Me-110 was a 3 seater, and would have had
>> a crew dinghy as standard?
>>
>
>The Me-110 was a two seater but we do know that the aircraft Hess used was
>a modified ME-110 E-1 fighter bomber aircraft, rather than the Me-110C
>series
>familiar from the BOB. My references state it was a development of the Bf
>110D-3
>convoy escort with special overwater provision and extra fuel. So yep it
>seems
>believable

So it wasn't specially modified for Hess. Except for the extensions to
the tuning controls for the Lorenz receiver which were added for Hess.
And it had drop tanks.
>
>> 2. Two Hurricanes were scrambled from Aldergrove (Northern Ireland) to
>> intercept and found him as he reached the Firth of Clyde. (Hess
>> overshot). Time, a few minutes after 10:45pm. Hess flew at low level.
>> Low enough to create 'a nerve-wracking roar
>>
>> Is it likely that the two Hurricanes would have found a low level
>> intruder in the dark at 10:45pm 10th May '41 at 55 deg North?
>>
>
>Sunset in Glasgow on May 10 is around 9.15PM BST however I believe
>during the war they were on double summertime so 10.45 wouldnt be
>long after sunset.

>
>I have heard this story it before and its usually attributed to Czech
>writer
>Jiri Rajlich who stateed 2 pilots of 245 Czech squadron told him the
>story after the war.

The book states that the pilots were Vaclav 'Felix' Bauman and Leopold
Strom, who returned home after the war.
>
>I'd say its of doubtful provenance but not impossible.
>
>> 3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used for
>> navigation purposes.
>>
>> Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the country
>> would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is this
>> likely?
>>
>
>It happened, Knickebein was indeed based on the Lorenz system and
>was used for navigation

Yes, but for general navigation over Germany?
>
>http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/tactics/knickebein/knicke
>bein.html
>
>> 4. 'Hess easily out-ran the three Spitfires which had been sent up over
>> the east coast to intercept him' [my paraphrase]
>>
>> Me-110 out-running a Spitfire?
>
>Its possible if he had been cruising at high altitude and pushed the nose
>down and
>crossed the coast in a shallow dive.

He was hanging around over the North Sea 'at fifty to one hundred feet,
waiting for dusk' He hung around from 20:52 until 21:52 before he
started in over the coast. I wonder why he didn't time his departure
from Augsberg better.

He was doing about 360 mph according to timings made by ROC posts, but
they didn't see him, only hear him, so not very accurate.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Phillip Treweek]

In article >, "M. J. Powell"
> wrote:

> I am reading a new book on Hess. The author makes a few startling
> claims.
>
> 1. "The fuselage of the Deputy-Fuehrer's Me-110 was half a metre longer
> than that of a normal production machine, and along its top a thin
> copper tube ran from the cockpit to an added -on half-metre section
> midway to the tail. Within this tube ran a steel cable connected to a
> handle near the pilot's seat........pulling this handle would release an
> inflatable rubber dinghy complete with survival facilities..."
>
> Does anyone believe this? The Me-110 was a 3 seater, and would have had
> a crew dinghy as standard?

As I recall, the back end of the fuselage is in the Imperial war Museum at
Lambeth - so it should be possible to check.

Phil.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip Treweek
Department of Computer Science ph ++64 7 838 4410
The University of Waikato fax ++64 7 838 4155
Private Bag 3105
Hamilton, New Zealand

'Kiwi Aircraft Images':
http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/aviation.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Keith Willshaw]

"M. J. Powell" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Keith Willshaw
> > writes
> >

> >The Me-110 was a two seater but we do know that the aircraft Hess used
was
> >a modified ME-110 E-1 fighter bomber aircraft, rather than the Me-110C
> >series
> >familiar from the BOB. My references state it was a development of the Bf
> >110D-3
> >convoy escort with special overwater provision and extra fuel. So yep it
> >seems
> >believable
>
> So it wasn't specially modified for Hess. Except for the extensions to
> the tuning controls for the Lorenz receiver which were added for Hess.
> And it had drop tanks.

Yes it was specially modified for Hess , it had extra internal tankage
for one thing and it was an early model Bf-110E as the type had not
gone into squadron service.

> >
> >> 2. Two Hurricanes were scrambled from Aldergrove (Northern Ireland) to
> >> intercept and found him as he reached the Firth of Clyde. (Hess
> >> overshot). Time, a few minutes after 10:45pm. Hess flew at low level.
> >> Low enough to create 'a nerve-wracking roar
> >>
> >> Is it likely that the two Hurricanes would have found a low level
> >> intruder in the dark at 10:45pm 10th May '41 at 55 deg North?
> >>
> >
> >Sunset in Glasgow on May 10 is around 9.15PM BST however I believe
> >during the war they were on double summertime so 10.45 wouldnt be
> >long after sunset.
>
> >
> >I have heard this story it before and its usually attributed to Czech
> >writer
> >Jiri Rajlich who stateed 2 pilots of 245 Czech squadron told him the
> >story after the war.
>
> The book states that the pilots were Vaclav 'Felix' Bauman and Leopold
> Strom, who returned home after the war.

Thats what I heard too

> >
> >I'd say its of doubtful provenance but not impossible.
> >
> >> 3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used for
> >> navigation purposes.
> >>
> >> Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the
country
> >> would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is
this
> >> likely?
> >>
> >
> >It happened, Knickebein was indeed based on the Lorenz system and
> >was used for navigation
>
> Yes, but for general navigation over Germany?

Yes


> >
> >http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/tactics/knickebein/knicke
> >bein.html
> >
> >> 4. 'Hess easily out-ran the three Spitfires which had been sent up over
> >> the east coast to intercept him' [my paraphrase]
> >>
> >> Me-110 out-running a Spitfire?
> >
> >Its possible if he had been cruising at high altitude and pushed the
nose
> >down and
> >crossed the coast in a shallow dive.
>
> He was hanging around over the North Sea 'at fifty to one hundred feet,
> waiting for dusk' He hung around from 20:52 until 21:52 before he
> started in over the coast. I wonder why he didn't time his departure
> from Augsberg better.
>

Cite please, I have seen no evidence to substantiate his 'hanging around'
and give the vagaries of head winds etc over that distance he couldnt have
been expected to do much better.

He'd have had to fly the whole way at best economical speed to make
it at all and I really doubt he had the fuel to hang around for an hour
or that the RAF would have let him do so in peace.

> He was doing about 360 mph according to timings made by ROC posts, but
> they didn't see him, only hear him, so not very accurate.
>

He was however being tracked by radar and a Defiant night fighter
was being vectored on to his position when he bailed out.

Keith

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Keith Willshaw
> writes
>> >
>> >> 3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used for
>> >> navigation purposes.
>> >>
>> >> Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the
>country
>> >> would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is
>this
>> >> likely?
>> >>
>> >
>> >It happened, Knickebein was indeed based on the Lorenz system and
>> >was used for navigation
>>
>> Yes, but for general navigation over Germany?
>
>Yes

Do you have cite for this, please? Not in any of my references.
>> >
>> >http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/tactics/knickebein/knicke
>> >bein.html

Interesting.
>> >
>> He was hanging around over the North Sea 'at fifty to one hundred feet,
>> waiting for dusk' He hung around from 20:52 until 21:52 before he
>> started in over the coast. I wonder why he didn't time his departure
>> from Augsberg better.
>>
>
>Cite please, I have seen no evidence to substantiate his 'hanging around'
>and give the vagaries of head winds etc over that distance he couldnt have
>been expected to do much better.

Map of his track in 'The Hitler/Hess Deception' by Martin Allen, p225.
I've also seen the same map somewhere else. IIRC taken from Hess's own
account somewhere.

He was an experienced pilot. Timings of raids, theirs and ours, were
done to better than 10 minutes frequently.

Augsberg 17:45
Cologne 18:45
Off Texel 19:28 then turn 90 deg right.
NE Groningen 19:58 then turn 90 deg left
190 miles off Berwick 20:52 then 90 deg left.
Then 100 miles back and forth until 21:52
Crosses coast abt 20 miles south of Berwick at 22:12
Near Kilmarnock 22:50
>
>He'd have had to fly the whole way at best economical speed to make
>it at all and I really doubt he had the fuel to hang around for an hour
>or that the RAF would have let him do so in peace.
>
>> He was doing about 360 mph according to timings made by ROC posts, but
>> they didn't see him, only hear him, so not very accurate.
>>
>
>He was however being tracked by radar and a Defiant night fighter
>was being vectored on to his position when he bailed out.

Only CHL would see him at 100 - 200 ft. I don't know whether there was
one near there. And CHL had no height-finding facility IIRC. And inland
amidst the hills?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Dave Eadsforth
> writes
>In article >, Keith Willshaw <keithNoSp
> writes
>>
>>"M. J. Powell" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>SNIP
>>
>>The Me-110 was a two seater but we do know that the aircraft Hess used was
>>a modified ME-110 E-1 fighter bomber aircraft, rather than the Me-110C
>>series
>>familiar from the BOB. My references state it was a development of the Bf
>>110D-3
>>convoy escort with special overwater provision and extra fuel. So yep it
>>seems
>>believable
>>
>Indeed, three-seater night fighter version only arrived in 1943, from
>memory.
>
>>> 2. Two Hurricanes were scrambled from Aldergrove (Northern Ireland) to
>>> intercept and found him as he reached the Firth of Clyde. (Hess
>>> overshot). Time, a few minutes after 10:45pm. Hess flew at low level.
>>> Low enough to create 'a nerve-wracking roar
>>>
>>> Is it likely that the two Hurricanes would have found a low level
>>> intruder in the dark at 10:45pm 10th May '41 at 55 deg North?
>>>
>>
>>Sunset in Glasgow on May 10 is around 9.15PM BST however I believe
>>during the war they were on double summertime so 10.45 wouldnt be
>>long after sunset.
>>
>Also, May 10th was almost full moon (99 percent of disc illuminated)
>with transit at just after midnight, so unless cloud cover was heavy
>there would have been a fair amount of light kicking around - perhaps
>enough for sharp-eyed young fighter pilots?

Yes, I suppose so. He said that as he neared the coast [east] he had
been able to make out 'the glassy sea...in the light of the rising
moon'.
But then he turned back over land. The only information of height would
have been the ROC reports.
>
>>I have heard this story it before and its usually attributed to Czech
>>writer
>>Jiri Rajlich who stateed 2 pilots of 245 Czech squadron told him the
>>story after the war.
>>
>>I'd say its of doubtful provenance but not impossible.
>>[i]
>>> 3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used for
>>> navigation purposes.
>>>
>>> Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the country
>>> would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is this
>>> likely?
>>>
>>
>>It happened, Knickebein was indeed based on the Lorenz system and
>>was used for navigation
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/tactics/knickebein/knick
>>ebein.htm
>>l
>>
>>> 4. 'Hess easily out-ran the three Spitfires which had been sent up over
>>> the east coast to intercept him' [my paraphrase]
>>>
>>> Me-110 out-running a Spitfire?
>>
>>Its possible if he had been cruising at high altitude and pushed the nose
>>down and
>>crossed the coast in a shallow dive.
>>
>
>Indeed, and if they were Spit IIs then they would not have been a lot
>faster than a 110 at low level. Me110 could do 294 mph at sea level and
>the Spit II would only have been a few mph faster at that altitude. So
>if the Spits had had to chase it on any kind of curve they would have
>had a hard time catching it.

Right.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Keith Willshaw]

"M. J. Powell" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Keith Willshaw
> > writes
> >> >
> >> >> 3. Germany was criss-crossed by Knickerbein beams which were used
for
> >> >> navigation purposes.
> >> >>
> >> >> Knickerbein used a souped-up Lorenz receiver. To criss-cross the
> >country
> >> >> would confuse the normal use of the Lorenz blind-landing system. Is
> >this
> >> >> likely?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >It happened, Knickebein was indeed based on the Lorenz system and
> >> >was used for navigation
> >>
> >> Yes, but for general navigation over Germany?
> >
> >Yes
>
> Do you have cite for this, please? Not in any of my references.

One example

from
A SHORT HISTORY OF "GEE" AIR NAVIGATION
Copyright :Henry R. Black, 2001

<Quote>
The Germans had devised before the war a beam system named Knickebein, and
later X-Gerät which were navigational and bombing aids in finding and
bombing targets. Once located, British scientists easily jammed them. The
Germans having this system, thought it unnecessary to train their bomber
crews in navigation.
</Quote>

> >> >
> >>
>http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/tactics/knickebein/knicke
> >> >bein.html
>
> Interesting.
> >> >
> >> He was hanging around over the North Sea 'at fifty to one hundred feet,
> >> waiting for dusk' He hung around from 20:52 until 21:52 before he
> >> started in over the coast. I wonder why he didn't time his departure
> >> from Augsberg better.
> >>
> >
> >Cite please, I have seen no evidence to substantiate his 'hanging around'
> >and give the vagaries of head winds etc over that distance he couldnt
have
> >been expected to do much better.
>
> Map of his track in 'The Hitler/Hess Deception' by Martin Allen, p225.
> I've also seen the same map somewhere else. IIRC taken from Hess's own
> account somewhere.
>

This is a classic of the conspiracy theory genre, even the Guardian
reviewer wasnt impressed by the evidence IRC

> He was an experienced pilot. Timings of raids, theirs and ours, were
> done to better than 10 minutes frequently.
>

Their raids were launched from bases in Norway and Northern
France, as for ours time on target estimates heavily depended
on wind estimates at elevation and were frequently very wrong.

In some cases there were losses when aircraft ran out of fuel
due to unexpectedly strong headwinds.

> Augsberg 17:45
> Cologne 18:45

Augsburg to Cologne is approx 320 miles, I seriously
doubt he covered this in an hour, IRC he took off at
16:45 not 1745 which gfits nicely with a cruising speed of
around 160 mph


> Off Texel 19:28 then turn 90 deg right.

OK he's running parallel to the Friesians

> NE Groningen 19:58 then turn 90 deg left
> 190 miles off Berwick 20:52 then 90 deg left.
> Then 100 miles back and forth until 21:52

OK so the claim is he's out of radar range 200 miles
out to sea

> Crosses coast abt 20 miles south of Berwick at 22:12
> Near Kilmarnock 22:50
> >
> >He'd have had to fly the whole way at best economical speed to make
> >it at all and I really doubt he had the fuel to hang around for an hour
> >or that the RAF would have let him do so in peace.
> >
> >> He was doing about 360 mph according to timings made by ROC posts, but
> >> they didn't see him, only hear him, so not very accurate.
> >>
> >
> >He was however being tracked by radar and a Defiant night fighter
> >was being vectored on to his position when he bailed out.
>
> Only CHL would see him at 100 - 200 ft. I don't know whether there was
> one near there. And CHL had no height-finding facility IIRC. And inland
> amidst the hills?
>

You cant have it both ways

either the Czechs tried to intercept him because he was
detected or he was undetected because he was at 50 ft
Thats the trouble with conspiracy theories, they tend to
contradict each other.

Which version are you proposing ?

The RAF version is that they detected him , sent to Spitfires
from Drem, the records of 602 squadron show that they did
attempt an intercept but couldnt find the aircraft. They then
vectored a Defiant nightfighter but He bailed out before
it could intercept him

Hess himself stated that having crossed the coast he descended
through cloud until he could see the a recognisable feature,
Holy Island and then flew SSW until reaching the line of the
Cheviot Hills which he then followed until losing sight of the
ground he got lost again and overshot his target circling over the
Clyde estuary before retracing his steps.

An experienced pilot he may have been but over Scotland he
was clearly navigating by following ground features and
equally clearly the RAF were aware of his presence.

Keith

[DunxC]

Shouldn't it be, 'Bf 110'?

Duncan