Re: More B-26 Nonsense from Art Kramer

[funkraum]

> (Peter Stickney) wrote:

[...]
>> In fact of course he was an unrepentant Nazi as he acknowledged
>> when he wrote his memoirs in 1951.
>
>Not to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
>whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
>and set them up in other spots in the world.
[...]

Where did you read this ?

[Peter Stickney]

In article <3f1b84fb.105235480@localhost>,
(funkraum) writes:
>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
> [...]
>>> In fact of course he was an unrepentant Nazi as he acknowledged
>>> when he wrote his memoirs in 1951.
>>
>>Not to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
>>whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
>>and set them up in other spots in the world.
> [...]
>
> Where did you read this ?

As far as Rudel and Odessa? The first mention I saw was in 1990, as
part of an Appreciation of likely candidates for organized crime
syndicates in Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell. Rudel's old
NDP crew (Postwar Nazis in Germany) were pretty prominent.
Most recently, where you could find it,
in Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the
Hindu-Aryan Myth, and Neo-Nazism. New York: New York University
Press. 1998, reviewed in The American Historical Review, Vol 104, No.3

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Tom Cervo]

One of his pilots is interviewed in the Smithsonian monograph about the
restored Fw-190.
He seemed to be a medal hunter and wasn't quite trusted by his pilots for that
reason. When he skipped off to Spain after the war--rather than stay in
Germany and help with the rebuilding--that was the last straw.

[The Enlightenment]

"Tom Cervo" > wrote in message
...
> One of his pilots is interviewed in the Smithsonian monograph about the
> restored Fw-190.
> He seemed to be a medal hunter and wasn't quite trusted by his pilots for
that
> reason. When he skipped off to Spain after the war--rather than stay in
> Germany and help with the rebuilding--that was the last straw.

Still, a guy that could take of with two stumps still bleeding from a recent
amputation due to combat injuries to destroy more tanks is interesting and
determined to say the least.

[funkraum]

> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
(funkraum) writes:
>>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:

>> [...]
>>>> In fact of course he was an unrepentant Nazi as he acknowledged
>>>> when he wrote his memoirs in 1951.
>>>
>>>Not to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
>>>whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
>>>and set them up in other spots in the world.
>> [...]
>>
>> Where did you read this ?
>
>As far as Rudel and Odessa? The first mention I saw was in 1990, as
>part of an Appreciation of likely candidates for organized crime
>syndicates in Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell.


> Rudel's old
>NDP crew (Postwar Nazis in Germany) were pretty prominent.
>

My God the Nazis really were supermen ! Still robbing banks and
squeezing protection out of nightclubs when well past retirement age.

'appreciation' , 'likely' , 'candidates' - This is a bit vague, no ?

Further, since there are hundreds and possibly thousands of minor
Neo-Nazi 'organisations' (all with obligatory red white black squiggle
symbol variant), all of whom draw their membership from young
disaffected males, who happen to be the same set of persons involved
in dis/organised crime, it seems something of a tautology to suggest
such.

Such a vague document is unlikely to have stumbled across anything
more than the usual second-hand rumours surrounding 'Odessa'.


>Most recently, where you could find it,
>in Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the
>Hindu-Aryan Myth, and Neo-Nazism. New York: New York University
>Press. 1998, reviewed in The American Historical Review, Vol 104, No.3
>

'Rudel a key figure in Odessa organisation' - But where did Nicholas
Goodrick-Clarke read it ? Presumably there is a reference to his
world-scoop interview with an Odessa mole ? Either that or he has
nothing better than Frederick Forsyth.

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
funkraum > writes:
>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
(funkraum) writes:
>>>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
>>> [...]
>>>>> In fact of course he was an unrepentant Nazi as he acknowledged
>>>>> when he wrote his memoirs in 1951.
>>>>
>>>>Not to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
>>>>whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
>>>>and set them up in other spots in the world.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Where did you read this ?
>>
>>As far as Rudel and Odessa? The first mention I saw was in 1990, as
>>part of an Appreciation of likely candidates for organized crime
>>syndicates in Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell.
>
>
>> Rudel's old
>>NDP crew (Postwar Nazis in Germany) were pretty prominent.
>>
>
> My God the Nazis really were supermen ! Still robbing banks and
> squeezing protection out of nightclubs when well past retirement age.

Most of that was in the 1940s & 50s. They were in their 20s and 30s
then. The Prime Hoodlum Years - they're still fit enough to be
menacing, and have emough experience to be Real Menacing.

And, as they get older, they get teams of Junior Thugs to do the
Fetching and Carrying. We're talking Organized Crime, not Rocket
Science.


> 'appreciation' , 'likely' , 'candidates' - This is a bit vague, no ?

No.
An Appreciation, in Official Report Language, is a reaoned assessment
of a paticular situation, and what could come out of that situation.
There were other candidates as well, of course. The various State
Security Agencies (KGB, STAASI, GB, u.s.w.) were, and are, also up
there as well. Odessa had the advantages of organization and
experience at operatng underground to draw on.

> Further, since there are hundreds and possibly thousands of minor
> Neo-Nazi 'organisations' (all with obligatory red white black squiggle
> symbol variant), all of whom draw their membership from young
> disaffected males, who happen to be the same set of persons involved
> in dis/organised crime, it seems something of a tautology to suggest
> such.

Again, the lagic used for the Figure of Merit was that of
Organization, Experience, and Contacts. Other than that, Cheap Dumb
Muscle is Cheap Dumb Muscle.

> Such a vague document is unlikely to have stumbled across anything
> more than the usual second-hand rumours surrounding 'Odessa'.

Then tell me what the context of the document was, who wrote it, and
who it was reviewed by, if yo know so much about it.

>>Most recently, where you could find it,
>>in Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the
>>Hindu-Aryan Myth, and Neo-Nazism. New York: New York University
>>Press. 1998, reviewed in The American Historical Review, Vol 104, No.3
>>
>
> 'Rudel a key figure in Odessa organisation' - But where did Nicholas
> Goodrick-Clarke read it ? Presumably there is a reference to his
> world-scoop interview with an Odessa mole ? Either that or he has
> nothing better than Frederick Forsyth.

Actually, he got it first hand from Devi herself.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[funkraum]

> (Peter Stickney) wrote:

>>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
(funkraum) writes:
>>>>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
[...]
>>>Most recently, where you could find it,
>>>in Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the
>>>Hindu-Aryan Myth, and Neo-Nazism. New York: New York University
>>>Press. 1998, reviewed in The American Historical Review, Vol 104, No.3
>>>
>>
>> 'Rudel a key figure in Odessa organisation' - But where did Nicholas
>> Goodrick-Clarke read it ? Presumably there is a reference to his
>> world-scoop interview with an Odessa mole ? Either that or he has
>> nothing better than Frederick Forsyth.
>
>Actually, he got it first hand from Devi herself.
>

'Rudel a key figure in Odessa organisation'

OK so where does Devi get it from ? Presumably there is a reference to
-her- world-scoop interview with an ODESSA mole ? un-earthed
letter-headed 'ODESSA' documents ? Captured shipment of 'ODESSA'
monogrammed chinaware ?

Come on Peter. I don't have to point out to a man of your erudition
the difference between a primary source and a (old) yarn spun in a
bar-room.

[Tarver Engineering]

"funkraum" > wrote in message
...
> > (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
> >>> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
> (funkraum) writes:

<snip>

> Come on Peter. I don't have to point out to a man of your erudition
> the difference between a primary source and a (old) yarn spun in a
> bar-room.

I believe Peter has bought into the Miller sub-idiot detector and as such
should be considered a "negative knowledge" source. After all, do we want
Peter dumbing down the newsgroups?