Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge

[ArtKramr]

If I met two soldiers, one had the Bronze Star but no CIB or battle stars, the
other had the Combat Infantry Badge but no Bronze Star, I would immediaetly
give the higher respect to the man with the CIB. Men who have been in battle
vvould always have higher place of honor than those who have never been in
battle.

If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle stars and
a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to the man
with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle stars and
> a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to the man
> with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..

Be careful there. I received 5 Air Medals for chasing Soviet Bear bombers
out of the Iceland MADIZ (100 missions). I don't feel much like a warrior :-)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/25/03 7:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle stars
>and
>> a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to the
>man
>> with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..
>
>Be careful there. I received 5 Air Medals for chasing Soviet Bear bombers
>out of the Iceland MADIZ (100 missions). I don't feel much like a warrior
>:-)
>
>
>

Wish I got my Air Medals the way you got yours. (sheesh)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>
> >> If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle stars
> >and
> >> a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to the
> >man
> >> with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..
> >
> >Be careful there. I received 5 Air Medals for chasing Soviet Bear bombers
> >out of the Iceland MADIZ (100 missions). I don't feel much like a warrior
> >:-)
>
> Wish I got my Air Medals the way you got yours. (sheesh)

Exactly!

If it's any consolation, the USAF got rid of the Air Medal for such purposes,
and came up with the Aerial Achievement Medal in about 1988 I believe,
which is what I got for 179 days service in Iraq #1.

I still have to pay for coffee...

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/25/03 8:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >>
>> >> If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle
>stars
>> >and
>> >> a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to
>the
>> >man
>> >> with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..
>> >
>> >Be careful there. I received 5 Air Medals for chasing Soviet Bear bombers
>> >out of the Iceland MADIZ (100 missions). I don't feel much like a warrior
>> >:-)
>>
>> Wish I got my Air Medals the way you got yours. (sheesh)
>
>Exactly!
>
>If it's any consolation, the USAF got rid of the Air Medal for such purposes,
>and came up with the Aerial Achievement Medal in about 1988 I believe,
>which is what I got for 179 days service in Iraq #1.
>
>I still have to pay for coffee...
>
>

I'll buy you one any time.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

If I may, I have a war story about what people are really fighting for:

There was a rule (don't know if it still exists) that said if you flew
through two meal periods, and were TDY, that you got full per-diem
for the day. There are generally four meals a day, in defined periods
of time (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and midnight chow). If you launch
before, or during one meal, and land after another, you track that
data on a "missed meal" form.

We never really missed a meal, as we had what were known as
IF-10's back then (In-Flight C rations), and later we had the "three
big lies"--"Meals", "Ready", and "To Eat".

If you really wanted to **** a crew off, it was to deny a missed meal
credit, which denied them full per-diem, which cost them a bunch of
bucks, that their wives already spent.

The Bronze Star, and CIB pale in comparison.

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> If I met two soldiers, one had the Bronze Star but no CIB or battle stars,
the
> other had the Combat Infantry Badge but no Bronze Star, I would
immediaetly
> give the higher respect to the man with the CIB. Men who have been in
battle
> vvould always have higher place of honor than those who have never been in
> battle.

Pretty shortsighted evaluation system. Qualifying for a CIB doesn't mean
you had to actually be in combat. You only have to be in the "combat zone",
which is defined by the powers that be.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/25/03 8:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>If I may, I have a war story about what people are really fighting for:
>
>There was a rule (don't know if it still exists) that said if you flew
>through two meal periods, and were TDY, that you got full per-diem
>for the day. There are generally four meals a day, in defined periods
>of time (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and midnight chow). If you launch
>before, or during one meal, and land after another, you track that
>data on a "missed meal" form.
>
>We never really missed a meal, as we had what were known as
>IF-10's back then (In-Flight C rations), and later we had the "three
>big lies"--"Meals", "Ready", and "To Eat".
>
>If you really wanted to **** a crew off, it was to deny a missed meal
>credit, which denied them full per-diem, which cost them a bunch of
>bucks, that their wives already spent.
>
>The Bronze Star, and CIB pale in comparison.
>
>

I was hoping that they would consider the ETO, TDY. No such luck (sheesh)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ragnar]

"S. Sampson" > wrote in message
. ..
> If I may, I have a war story about what people are really fighting for:
>
> There was a rule (don't know if it still exists) that said if you flew
> through two meal periods, and were TDY, that you got full per-diem
> for the day. There are generally four meals a day, in defined periods
> of time (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and midnight chow). If you launch
> before, or during one meal, and land after another, you track that
> data on a "missed meal" form.

Well, in my flying career, we had the system all worked out. If you were in
crew rest (12 hours of rest, including 8 hours of un-interrupted sleep),
pre-flight brief, actual flight, and post-flight brief, you could wangle
missed meals. There were a couple of times that my crew managed to get
missed meals for two days out of one mission. I flew 27 missions in Allied
Farce (24 combat support) and I walked away with just about $3500 from
missed meals. Greatest aircrew scam ever - beats out even the ever-popular
"crew integrity" for billeting scam.

[Leadfoot]

You know I never liked the slogan "Army of One". I always thought of
military service as a "Team Effort". In Art's case there was a whole lot of
guys who helped make sure Art was able to put "Bombs on target" Fuelers,
bomb loaders, mechanics, electricians radiomen, supply clerks, medics, cooks
and a whole lot of others I can't think of right now. I'm sure 99% would be
willing to put the lives on the line but unfortunately for them the military
decided they were needed in the "Rear with the Gear". As it is I'm sure a
couple of ME-262's could have come by Art's air strip and "made their Day"
with a couple of 500Lb'ers and they'd be just as dead as a MoH winner.

Being awarded a medal is often a case of being in the right place and doing
what you were trained to do. "Snuffy" Smith come to mind. Does the guy who
spends his whole military career preparing for war but never sees it deserve
less respect than someone who happened to be in the right place at the right
time?

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> If I met two soldiers, one had the Bronze Star but no CIB or battle stars,
the
> other had the Combat Infantry Badge but no Bronze Star, I would
immediaetly
> give the higher respect to the man with the CIB. Men who have been in
battle
> vvould always have higher place of honor than those who have never been in
> battle.
>
> If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle
stars and
> a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to
the man
> with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..
>
> Arthur Kramer
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Brian]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:CCtUa.18035$u51.3113@fed1read05...
> Being awarded a medal is often a case of being in the right place and
doing
> what you were trained to do. "Snuffy" Smith come to mind. Does the guy
who
> spends his whole military career preparing for war but never sees it
deserve
> less respect than someone who happened to be in the right place at the
right
> time?

Not to mention during Art's day, you were "volunteered"...Todays military is
100% volunteer.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>From: "Leadfoot"
>Date: 7/26/03 4:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>eing awarded a medal is often a case of being in the right place and doing
>what you were trained to do. "Snuffy" Smith come to mind. Does the guy who
>spends his whole military career preparing for war but never sees it deserve
>less respect than someone who happened to be in the right place at the right
>time?
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> If I met two soldiers, one had the Bronze Star but no CIB or battle stars,
>the
>> other had the Combat Infantry Badge but no Bronze Star, I would
>immediaetly
>> give the higher respect to the man with the CIB. Men who have been in
>battle
>> vvould always have higher place of honor than those who have never been in
>> battle.
>>

All you had to do was step forward and say " Take me. I'll go" and you would
have been with us. You didn't, therefore you weren't.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Keith Willshaw]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> news:CCtUa.18035$u51.3113@fed1read05...
> > Being awarded a medal is often a case of being in the right place and
> doing
> > what you were trained to do. "Snuffy" Smith come to mind. Does the guy
> who
> > spends his whole military career preparing for war but never sees it
> deserve
> > less respect than someone who happened to be in the right place at the
> right
> > time?
>
> Not to mention during Art's day, you were "volunteered"...Todays military
is
> 100% volunteer.
>

Aircrew were 100% volunteers in the USAAF and RAF , you could get drafted
into
the service but had to volunteer for flying duty.

Keith

[Brian]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
> >From: "Brian"
> >Date: 7/26/03 4:35 AM Pacific
>
> >Not to mention during Art's day, you were "volunteered"...Todays military
is
> >100% volunteer.
>
> No. We were not "volunteered". We volunteered. Get the difference?. I
assume
> you vounteered as well..

I should have stated aircrew were volunteers but most people got drafted.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>From: "Brian"
>Date: 7/26/03 5:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >ubject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>> >From: "Brian"
>> >Date: 7/26/03 4:35 AM Pacific
>>
>> >Not to mention during Art's day, you were "volunteered"...Todays military
>is
>> >100% volunteer.
>>
>> No. We were not "volunteered". We volunteered. Get the difference?. I
>assume
>> you vounteered as well..
>
>I should have stated aircrew were volunteers but most people got drafted.
>

Yes, you should have.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >, "S. Sampson"
> wrote:

> If I may, I have a war story about what people are really fighting for:
>
> There was a rule (don't know if it still exists) that said if you flew
> through two meal periods, and were TDY, that you got full per-diem
> for the day. There are generally four meals a day, in defined periods
> of time (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and midnight chow). If you launch
> before, or during one meal, and land after another, you track that
> data on a "missed meal" form.
>
> We never really missed a meal, as we had what were known as
> IF-10's back then (In-Flight C rations), and later we had the "three
> big lies"--"Meals", "Ready", and "To Eat".
>
> If you really wanted to **** a crew off, it was to deny a missed meal
> credit, which denied them full per-diem, which cost them a bunch of
> bucks, that their wives already spent.
>
> The Bronze Star, and CIB pale in comparison.
>
>

Spousal combat is not covered by the Geneva or Hague Conventions. As
was said about Tarawa, "Utmost savagery."

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
says...
> If I met two soldiers, one had the Bronze Star but no CIB or battle stars, the
> other had the Combat Infantry Badge but no Bronze Star, I would immediaetly
> give the higher respect to the man with the CIB. Men who have been in battle
> vvould always have higher place of honor than those who have never been in
> battle.
>
> If I met a high ranking officer with the Bronze Star but no battle stars and
> a sgt. with the Air Medal but no Bronze Star, the greater honor goes to the man
> with the Air Medal. Battle honors go above all other honors..
>

It's not so cut and dried. My last unit we had a SGT with bronze star
with a V.
He had been a helo mech in DS1 and nver did talk about the whys or
where fors..

But he refused to fly anymore, even just as a passenger...

By just giving the CIB all the credit you will be ognoring all those
tanker/cannon cockers and other sundry soldiers that may be in the
same combat but because of the Reg's are not awarded a CIB.



--
--
Remember, Friendly fire, Isn't :

[Walter Luffman]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 04:30:01 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
wrote:

>You know I never liked the slogan "Army of One". I always thought of
>military service as a "Team Effort".

Same here. When I hear "any Army of One", I think of Rambo-type
vigilantes. Warriors almost never fight solo; even pilots in
single-seat fighters generally have wingmen. Not to mention all the
non-warriors who provide necessary support back a the post/base/camp.

___
Walter Luffman Medina, TN USA
Amateur curmudgeon, equal-opportunity annoyer

[Walter Luffman]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:35:54 -0400, "Brian"
> wrote:

>Not to mention during Art's day, you were "volunteered"...Todays military is
>100% volunteer.

Yep. I enlisted in 1968; but if I hadn't been at some risk of being
drafted anyway, I most likely would not have enlisted.

___
Walter Luffman Medina, TN USA
Amateur curmudgeon, equal-opportunity annoyer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bronze Star v. Combat Infantry Badge
>From: Walter Luffman
>Date: 7/26/03 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:35:54 -0400, "Brian"
> wrote:
>
>>Not to mention during Art's day, you were "volunteered"...Todays military is
>>100% volunteer.
>
>Yep. I enlisted in 1968; but if I hadn't been at some risk of being
>drafted anyway, I most likely would not have enlisted.
>
>___
>Walter Luffman Medina, TN USA


My greatest fear was that the war would end before I got there. It didn't.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mary Shafer]

On 27 Jul 2003 03:02:31 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

> My greatest fear was that the war would end before I got there. It didn't.

That happened to a friend of mine. He stayed in the USAAF/USAF as a
bomber pilot, became a test pilot (B-57, XB-70), retired as a Colonel,
came to Dryden as a research test pilot (XB-70, NB-52B, 747 SCA,
YF-12), retired from Dryden, flew a little longer as a private test
pilot, and finally retired. Never dropped a bomb in anger while he
was in the military.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."
Anonymous US fighter pilot

[David P Benjamin]

Walter Luffman ) wrote:
: On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 04:30:01 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
: wrote:

: >You know I never liked the slogan "Army of One". I always thought of
: >military service as a "Team Effort".

: Same here. When I hear "any Army of One", I think of Rambo-type
: vigilantes. Warriors almost never fight solo; even pilots in
: single-seat fighters generally have wingmen. Not to mention all the
: non-warriors who provide necessary support back a the post/base/camp.

When I hear "Army of One", I think of "E Pluribus Unum."
Many people, one army. But maybe I'm just weird.


--
David Benjamin

[Walter Luffman]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:41:24 -0700, Mary Shafer
> wrote:

>On 27 Jul 2003 03:02:31 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>> My greatest fear was that the war would end before I got there. It didn't.
>
>That happened to a friend of mine. He stayed in the USAAF/USAF as a
>bomber pilot, became a test pilot (B-57, XB-70), retired as a Colonel,
>came to Dryden as a research test pilot (XB-70, NB-52B, 747 SCA,
>YF-12), retired from Dryden, flew a little longer as a private test
>pilot, and finally retired. Never dropped a bomb in anger while he
>was in the military.
>
>Mary

Sounds like a good way to do it. Ready to drop ordnance and the enemy
knew it ... so he never had to. In the meantime he got to have a lot
of fun!

We should all be so lucky. Unfortunately, Saddam and other tinpot
dictators are seldom as intelligent as the Soviet leadership was when
it comes to backing away from the brink. So now and then we have to
really do what we're trained to do.

___
Walter Luffman Medina, TN USA
Amateur curmudgeon, equal-opportunity annoyer