Dogfights in Vietnam

[Mike]

Did United States air and naval air forces actually engage in that
many Dogfights with North Vietamese aircraft during the Vietnam war ?

Where did these planes take off from ? Bases in China ?

[Guy Alcala]

Mike wrote:

> Did United States air and naval air forces actually engage in that
> many Dogfights with North Vietamese aircraft during the Vietnam war ?

Several hundred. Just in the Dec. 1971 - January 1973 period, Red Baron
lists 127 combat incidents.

> Where did these planes take off from ? Bases in China ?

Bases in the DRVN, although there may have been some combat missions
launched from Chinese bases. U.S. sources claim that Chinese bases were
used as dispersion fields and emergency recovery fields.

Guy

[Steve Langner]

Recommend you find Lou Drendel's " . . . and Kill MIGs," which gives
accounts of a number of dogfights by American fighter pilots, Air Force,
Navy, and Marine Corps. Included is a list of all air-to-air shootdowns
officially credited.

"Mike" > wrote in message
m...

> Did United States air and naval air forces actually engage in that
> many Dogfights with North Vietamese aircraft during the Vietnam war ?
>

[Ed Rasimus]

"Steve Langner" > wrote:

>Recommend you find Lou Drendel's " . . . and Kill MIGs," which gives
>accounts of a number of dogfights by American fighter pilots, Air Force,
>Navy, and Marine Corps. Included is a list of all air-to-air shootdowns
>officially credited.
>
>"Mike" > wrote in message
m...
>
>> Did United States air and naval air forces actually engage in that
>> many Dogfights with North Vietamese aircraft during the Vietnam war ?
>>

And might also refer to Marshall Michel's "Clashes" as well as Wayne
Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" which offers some good statistical
summaries. From the other side there's also Toperczer, but as a US
participant I find his analysis a bit lop-sided.

North Vietnamese aircraft operated almost exclusively from NVN
airfields at Kep, Phuc Yen, Hoa Lac, Cat Bi and during some years at
Yen Bai as well as very sporadically as far south as Vinh.

As Guy pointed out, they occasionally moved aircraft N. to China, but
didn't launch operational sorties from N. of the border.

What raised this question in the first place? There's more than enough
published history and statistical data to answer it easily.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[Guy Alcala]

Mark wrote:

> Your post brings up a question I've had....
>
> Are the "Red Baron" reports in the public domain somewhere?? Always
> wondered if anyone has done a FOIA for them. If not, would be nice to see
> them available as they are almost of 'historical' vintage now (Not to say
> that the aviators involved are of 'vintage' quite yet!!!!)
>

I believe the whole thing has been declassified. I talked to the officer
responsible for declassifying them, back in 1994; as I recall, he said there
was a single word in the whole thing that had been holding up
declassification, and I've been trying to guess what that word was ever
since. I've got a copy of Red Baron III which is the weapons summary for the
whole war, and also includes the event listing for the 1971-73 period (but not
the detailed account of each A-A event itself), which was declassified at
least by 22 July 1992 judging by the date stamp. The AFHRSC at Maxwell has
them, which is where a friend xeroxed Red Baron III for me back in 1994. It's
been a while since I checked their website, but it used to be that you had to
physically go there to make copies, or else they would sell you microfilmed
copies (at least that's how it worked for the declassified Project CHECO
reports).

Guy

[John S. Shinal]

Guy Alcala wrote:

>I believe the whole thing has been declassified. I talked to the officer
>responsible for declassifying them, back in 1994; as I recall, he said there
>was a single word in the whole thing that had been holding up
>declassification, and I've been trying to guess what that word was ever
>since.

How about "Soviet" ? If used to describe an enemy pilot...



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[David Lednicer]

http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usloss.html
http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usvictor.html

[Mark]

You can see references on web about such "rumors" (See this Dec 02 post
below) But just as many denials as well.....

http://pub115.ezboard.com/fpoliticsofthepeoplefrm8.showNextMessage?topicID=1
35.topic

But I think your down the right track. If the report was held up it was
probably for 'political' reasons vice a military issue!!!! Just take a look
at recent Iraq action and the loss of the F-15E. Still being
investigated??? Press hasn't been on top of this one very much. Me thinks
this one is wrapped up in some political issues as well. Otherwise, what is
so "sensitive" about a combat loss or loss due to aircraft malfunction/pilot
error. Happens all the time.


vr

Mark


"John S. Shinal" > wrote in message
...
> Guy Alcala wrote:
>
> >I believe the whole thing has been declassified. I talked to the officer
> >responsible for declassifying them, back in 1994; as I recall, he said
there
> >was a single word in the whole thing that had been holding up
> >declassification, and I've been trying to guess what that word was ever
> >since.
>
> How about "Soviet" ? If used to describe an enemy pilot...
>
>
>
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News==----
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Newsgroups
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[Guy Alcala]

"John S. Shinal" wrote:

> Guy Alcala wrote:
>
> >I believe the whole thing has been declassified. I talked to the officer
> >responsible for declassifying them, back in 1994; as I recall, he said there
> >was a single word in the whole thing that had been holding up
> >declassification, and I've been trying to guess what that word was ever
> >since.
>
> How about "Soviet" ? If used to describe an enemy pilot...

Could be, although I lean more towards "China." We know now that one Soviet pilot
trainer and his pupil in a two-seat MiG-21 got caught in the middle of an air raid,
were unable to land before running out of fuel and either crash-landed or had to punch
out (I forget which, and am too lazy to look it up). There were also supposedly North
Korean pilots flying MiGs in combat, and maybe some Soviet or WarPact pilots as well.
As to China, we scored some kills against Chinese MiGs (and had some losses) while
over Chinese territory, and AFAIK those kills have still not been officially
recognized, although they are widely known.

Guy

[BOB URZ]

Mark wrote:

> You can see references on web about such "rumors" (See this Dec 02 post
> below) But just as many denials as well.....
>
> http://pub115.ezboard.com/fpoliticsofthepeoplefrm8.showNextMessage?topicID=1
> 35.topic
>
> But I think your down the right track. If the report was held up it was
> probably for 'political' reasons vice a military issue!!!! Just take a look
> at recent Iraq action and the loss of the F-15E. Still being
> investigated??? Press hasn't been on top of this one very much. Me thinks
> this one is wrapped up in some political issues as well. Otherwise, what is
> so "sensitive" about a combat loss or loss due to aircraft malfunction/pilot
> error. Happens all the time.
>

So, what is the Un official story on the F15 shoot down?

BOB


>
> vr
>
> Mark
>



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[Billy Beck]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>"Steve Langner" > wrote:
>
>>Recommend you find Lou Drendel's " . . . and Kill MIGs," which gives
>>accounts of a number of dogfights by American fighter pilots, Air Force,
>>Navy, and Marine Corps. Included is a list of all air-to-air shootdowns
>>officially credited.
>>
>>"Mike" > wrote...
>>
>>> Did United States air and naval air forces actually engage in that
>>> many Dogfights with North Vietamese aircraft during the Vietnam war ?

>And might also refer to Marshall Michel's "Clashes" as well as Wayne
>Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" which offers some good statistical
>summaries. From the other side there's also Toperczer, but as a US
>participant I find his analysis a bit lop-sided.

In his account of Rolling Thunder (1994, Air Research
Publications), John T. Smith offers a chronological listing of A/A
claims by US fighter crews during the campaign. He says it was
compiled from material by Tillman, Francillion, and Drendle.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[John S. Shinal]

Guy Alcala wrote:

>Could be, although I lean more towards "China." We know now that one Soviet pilot
>trainer and his pupil in a two-seat MiG-21 got caught in the middle of an air raid,

I recall reading that Curt Dose's kill (over Kep ? He tagged
the guy just off the runway) caused the NV radio networks to go
berserk, I always wondered if that was the sort of thing that would
cause it.



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