recording of birth certificate and passport numbers

[Jose]

My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:15 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
>birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
>knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
>I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
>to recording.
>
>Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

49 CFR 1552.3 paragraphs H and I. You have to get TSA approval for
training if you're a foregin citizen, but documentation of US
citizenship is required to be shown. They have to keep records of the
proof of citizenship for 5 years. AOPAs page summarizing this says
they could make a log entry instead, but knowing how the TSA works I'd
bet they removed that provision and want to see actual photocopies of
the document if they go looking for some reason.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 10, 1:46 pm, Jose > wrote:
> My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
> birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
> knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
> I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
> to recording.
>
> Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Its true. This is a TSA rule. I have to see your passport or B-
certificate and then either keep a copy or endorse your log that I've
seen it. If you are not a U.S. citizen I need to get TSA pre-approval
for you.

-Robert, CFII & TSA registered provider of foreign flight training

[Blueskies]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message oups.com...
> On Jun 10, 1:46 pm, Jose > wrote:
>> My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
>> birth certificate ---and--- passport before he can fly with me. To my
>> knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
>> I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
>> to recording.
>>
>> Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?
>
> Its true. This is a TSA rule. I have to see your passport ---or--- B-
> certificate and then either keep a copy or endorse your log that I've
> seen it. If you are not a U.S. citizen I need to get TSA pre-approval
> for you.
>
> -Robert, CFII & TSA registered provider of foreign flight training
>

Key word is -or-, not -and-....

[john smith[_2_]]

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On Jun 10, 1:46 pm, Jose > wrote:
> > My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
> > birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
> > knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
> > I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
> > to recording.
> >
> > Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?
>
> Its true. This is a TSA rule. I have to see your passport or B-
> certificate and then either keep a copy or endorse your log that I've
> seen it. If you are not a U.S. citizen I need to get TSA pre-approval
> for you.
>
> -Robert, CFII & TSA registered provider of foreign flight training

A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?
Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:51 -0400, john smith >
wrote:
>
>A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?

- OR - not - and -.

The flight school is required to keep a photo copy. I had to cough up
a passport to get my TSA logbook endorsement two years ago. The
endorsement includes my passport number.

>Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
>This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.

You have a point.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Jun 10, 4:46 pm, Jose > wrote:
> My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
> birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
> knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
> I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
> to recording.
>
> Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?
>
> Jose
> --

The regs are vague. It uses language such as f'light school,
employees, supervisors etc.. as if all flight instruction only takes
place at large establishments. These regs were written by people who
have never seen a small airplane up close. Even part 61, which is
written by aviation experts, has a lot of holes, so it is not
reasonable to expect the TSA regs to make any kind of aviation sense.

To answer your question, yes it does say you have to keep a copy of
the passport or other document used to prove citizenship. It doesn't
say the copy has to be a photocopy. It could be a simple entry in the
instructor's records. But even if an over-zealous CFI wants to take a
photocopy, how many pages is he supposed to copy? Does he have to copy
all 24 pages, or just the first page?

I would love to see one of these cases turn into a legal battle. Would
the loose definitions used in the TSA regs stand up in court?

[Blueskies]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message ups.com...
>
> I would love to see one of these cases turn into a legal battle. Would
> the loose definitions used in the TSA regs stand up in court?
>
>

Of course, if bush gets his justice dept the way he wants it...

[James]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:15 GMT, Jose >
> wrote:
>
>
>>My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
>>birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
>>knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
>>I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
>>to recording.
>>
>>Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?
At my flying club they keep photocopies of the appropriate passport
page. I am from Australia orginally, and speak 'Australian' English,
which ****es off ATC occasionally! My flying instructor was quite happy
to find out that I am a dual national, and hence they did not need to
submit stuff to the FAA.

James.


>
>
> 49 CFR 1552.3 paragraphs H and I. You have to get TSA approval for
> training if you're a foregin citizen, but documentation of US
> citizenship is required to be shown. They have to keep records of the
> proof of citizenship for 5 years. AOPAs page summarizing this says
> they could make a log entry instead, but knowing how the TSA works I'd
> bet they removed that provision and want to see actual photocopies of
> the document if they go looking for some reason.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 10, 4:07 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:51 -0400, john smith >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?
>
> - OR - not - and -.
>
> The flight school is required to keep a photo copy. I had to cough up
> a passport to get my TSA logbook endorsement two years ago. The
> endorsement includes my passport number.
>
> >Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
> >This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.
>
> You have a point.

That one of the reasons I choose to not keep copies of this paperwork
and instead just make the endorsement that I've seen it. The whole
thing makes little sense. Some FBOs are not accepting B-certificates
as well and require passports (ref: allATP)

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 00:39:41 GMT, "Blueskies"
> wrote in
>:

>
>Of course, if bush gets his justice dept the way he wants it...

It starts at the top.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

James wrote:
> I am from Australia orginally, and speak 'Australian' English,
> which ****es off ATC occasionally!

You must have a few twitchy ATC folks.

I'd bet ATC would welcome Aussie English any day, based on what I
normally hear on the radio around Boston and NY. <G>

[John Godwin]

B A R R Y > wrote in news:h5abi.14037$RX.6072
@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net:

> James wrote:
> You must have a few twitchy ATC folks.
>
> I'd bet ATC would welcome Aussie English any day, based on what I
> normally hear on the radio around Boston and NY. <G>

Reminds me of the time I was being handled by Norcal Approach for
SFO. An Aeroflot Pilot called in with the most impeccable English
and with very clear enunciation but you could tell he was Russian;
Americans just don't speak that clearly. <g>

--

[ktbr]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

>
> The regs are vague. It uses language such as f'light school,
> employees, supervisors etc.. as if all flight instruction only takes
> place at large establishments. These regs were written by people who
> have never seen a small airplane up close. Even part 61, which is
> written by aviation experts, has a lot of holes, so it is not
> reasonable to expect the TSA regs to make any kind of aviation sense.

These are the same people that want to write additional
immigration legislation and expect you people to love it.

I submit that what we have in this country is a severe case
of TWR.... Taxation Without Representation. It is probable
that the time has come to put most of these old farts into
retirement and let someone else have a chance.

[Mark T. Dame]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:51 -0400, john smith >
> wrote:
>> A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?
>
> - OR - not - and -.

Passport -OR-
Birth Certificate -AND- photo ID (presumably a drivers license or other
state ID; your amusement park season pass doesn't qualify).


>> Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
>> This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.
>
> You have a point.

I don't think it says you can't black out the stuff that would open you
up to liability (SSN, birthday, address...). That way if anyone breaks
into your files, the copies are worthless.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## CP-ASEL, AGI
## <insert tail number here>
## KHAO, KISZ
"Sometimes it happens."
-- Forrest Gump

[Cubdriver]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:15 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>To my
>knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
>I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
>to recording.

Hey, if your instructor won't fly with you without the information,
that's his privilege! If you don't like it, you have the privilege of
finding another instructor.

Ain't democracy a great invention?

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Jun 11, 1:18 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Jun 10, 4:07 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:51 -0400, john smith >
> > wrote:
>
> > >A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?
>
> > - OR - not - and -.
>
> > The flight school is required to keep a photo copy. I had to cough up
> > a passport to get my TSA logbook endorsement two years ago. The
> > endorsement includes my passport number.
>
> > >Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
> > >This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.
>
> > You have a point.
>
> That one of the reasons I choose to not keep copies of this paperwork
> and instead just make the endorsement that I've seen it. The whole
> thing makes little sense. Some FBOs are not accepting B-certificates
> as well and require passports (ref: allATP)
>


The regs don't say that you need a birth certificate AND a passport.
These FBOs are making up their own rules above and beyond the TSA
requirements, and in my opinion, they are worse than the TSA people.

Just out of curiosity, can anyone demand to see your passport in order
to offer services? I thought only government reps or law enforcement
can demand to see them (even that I am not sure unless you are
crossing the border). It's like having to give your social security
number to at the laundromat.

[Cubdriver]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:51:51 -0000, John Godwin
> wrote:

>Reminds me of the time I was being handled by Norcal Approach for
>SFO. An Aeroflot Pilot called in with the most impeccable English
>and with very clear enunciation but you could tell he was Russian;
>Americans just don't speak that clearly. <g>

My granddaughters live on a boat in the South Atlantic. They came up
for a visit a few weeks ago, and their mother took them to the
pediatrician for a checkup. The doctor asked the older girl (six) if
she spoke any languages other than English, and she replied, "Yes.
American."

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com