How low can you go?

[James Hart]

Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping himself.
http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv

--
James...
http://www.jameshart.co.uk/

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
James Hart > wrote:
>Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping himself.
>http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv

Rather famously (at least locally) a Polish pilot took a Spitfire under
the left-hand girder span of Barmouth Bridge in 1943 or so. The size of
the gap is visible in:

http://www.ipcvision.com/page01/page14/bridg-01.htm

He may have done it at low water, but you never know.

There's also the rather spectacular pass made by the world's first jet
airliner - the Vickers Nene Viking - on its debut, where it's reputed to
have mad a fast pass down the runway at the Farnborough show at an
altitude of something like 10'. There's a very good photograph of this
exploit which turned up in Aeroplane MOnthly a while back, but there
doesn't seem to be a locatable electronic copy (still (c), I guess).

Can't comment about the video as it appears to be in some wierd
proprietary format (something windows, probably..)

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

[Martin D]

"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> James Hart > wrote:
> >Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping
himself.
> >http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv
>
> Rather famously (at least locally) a Polish pilot took a Spitfire under
> the left-hand girder span of Barmouth Bridge in 1943 or so. The size of
> the gap is visible in:
>
> http://www.ipcvision.com/page01/page14/bridg-01.htm
>
> He may have done it at low water, but you never know.
>
> There's also the rather spectacular pass made by the world's first jet
> airliner - the Vickers Nene Viking - on its debut, where it's reputed to
> have mad a fast pass down the runway at the Farnborough show at an
> altitude of something like 10'. There's a very good photograph of this
> exploit which turned up in Aeroplane MOnthly a while back, but there
> doesn't seem to be a locatable electronic copy (still (c), I guess).
>
> Can't comment about the video as it appears to be in some wierd
> proprietary format (something windows, probably..)
>
> --
> Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
> http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
> Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
> money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

This reminded me of a story I heard as a lad in the late 1950s/early 1960s
involving a Hawker Hunter flying between the upper and lower spans of Tower
Bridge in London. I have always thought the story must be apocryphal, but
having seen the Spitfire clip, now I'm not so sure....

Martin D

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
Martin D > wrote:
>
>> http://www.ipcvision.com/page01/page14/bridg-01.htm
>>
>This reminded me of a story I heard as a lad in the late 1950s/early 1960s
>involving a Hawker Hunter flying between the upper and lower spans of Tower
>Bridge in London. I have always thought the story must be apocryphal, but
>having seen the Spitfire clip, now I'm not so sure....


It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest - there were some deeply silly
things done in those days (a friend of my father's - a guy I met in his
older, more sensible days - got posted out to the far east after flying a
Sea Gladiator *underneath* the balcony of the admiral's house in IIRC
Durban - the house *was* on a cliff and I think the "underneath" was the
admiral looking down on the top wing, but still..).

One of the regular training exercises for 617 squadron (the dambusters) in
tha last big mistake was flying under the Menai Bridges: The road bridge,
being single span I can see, the Britannia is two-span, and that would
seem awful tight for a Lancaster - which I suppose was the point.

There are also sundry tales of Lightnings being taken under the Forth
Bridges at unlikely speeds - I suspect these are not good things to ask
about!

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

[Don Harstad]

"Martin D" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> This reminded me of a story I heard as a lad in the late 1950s/early 1960s
> involving a Hawker Hunter flying between the upper and lower spans of
Tower
> Bridge in London. I have always thought the story must be apocryphal, but
> having seen the Spitfire clip, now I'm not so sure....
>
> Martin D
>
I heard that, too. I seem to remember the pilot being court-marshaled or
something. IIRC again, it had something to do with the disbandment of some
squadrons, or closing of bases, or.... At any rate, it was related as a
gesture on the part of a senior pilot.

Don H.

[LesB]

Should mention the report in my last post was from a website. Some
time ago now and I can't recall the url.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regards
LesB

[Keith Willshaw]

"Martin D" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> This reminded me of a story I heard as a lad in the late 1950s/early 1960s
> involving a Hawker Hunter flying between the upper and lower spans of
Tower
> Bridge in London. I have always thought the story must be apocryphal, but
> having seen the Spitfire clip, now I'm not so sure....
>

Its quite true, the pilot was Flt Lt Alan Pollock and he made the flight on
5th April 1968 as a protest against the run down of the RAF, it was
covered in Flypast some years ago.

Keith

[James Hart]

Don Harstad wrote:
> "Martin D" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>
>>
>> This reminded me of a story I heard as a lad in the late 1950s/early
>> 1960s involving a Hawker Hunter flying between the upper and lower
>> spans of Tower Bridge in London. I have always thought the story
>> must be apocryphal, but having seen the Spitfire clip, now I'm not
>> so sure....
>>
>> Martin D
>>
> I heard that, too. I seem to remember the pilot being court-
> marshaled or something. IIRC again, it had something to do with the
> disbandment of some squadrons, or closing of bases, or.... At any
> rate, it was related as a gesture on the part of a senior pilot.

http://www.see.ipms.btinternet.co.uk/funnies/funnies3.htm
Another story along the same lines.

--
James...
http://www.jameshart.co.uk/

[S. Sampson]

"Walt BJ" > wrote
>
> I witnessed a KC135 make a 'low pass' at Homestead AFB around 1965. We
> were on 5 minute alert and sitting outside enjoying decent weather and
> idly watching the tanker come in lower and lower. It got down to about
> 10 feet between the runway and the engine pods when the IP realized -
> oops - no gear! One of us had already run to the radio but he wouldn't
> have got the word to the crew quick enough. SAC dodged a bullet that
> day.

It's pretty noisy in a 707/135 with the nose gear down, so I can't understand
missing that step in the check-list and not having maximum feedback that things
are really screwed-up and getting silently worse :-)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How low can you go?
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 7/28/03 7:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Walt BJ" > wrote
>>
>> I witnessed a KC135 make a 'low pass' at Homestead AFB around 1965. We
>> were on 5 minute alert and sitting outside enjoying decent weather and
>> idly watching the tanker come in lower and lower. It got down to about
>> 10 feet between the runway and the engine pods when the IP realized -
>> oops - no gear! One of us had already run to the radio but he wouldn't
>> have got the word to the crew quick enough. SAC dodged a bullet that
>> day.
>
>It's pretty noisy in a 707/135 with the nose gear down, so I can't understand
>missing that step in the check-list and not having maximum feedback that
>things
>are really screwed-up and getting silently worse :-)
>
>

We had a guy in the 344th flying out of Florennes Belgium in 1944 who used tot
get a kick out out of giving everyone nervous fits on take off. What he would
do was wait until he barely was airborne, he would then hold it inches off the
runway and yank up the gear. To onlookers it looked as though he was still
on the ground when he pulled up the gear giving everyone fits. The CO
(Col.Vance) chewed him out every time he did it. But he just kept doing it,
Pretty soon we would all show up when he was on the mission just to watch him
pull his little trick,. Well one day his luck ran out,.. He yanked up the gear
just a moment too soon and mushed right down into the runway, bending the
props and throwing up clouds of sparks. And this was a fully loaded Marauder
with 4,000 lbs of bombs and the gas tanks topped off. Well he didn't explode
and nobody was badly injured. But the never did it again because he was gone
right after this happened.. We never saw him again.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dav1936531]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>
>
>But the never did it again because he was gone right after this happened..
We never saw him again.
>Arthur Kramer

Right. The powers that be had to move him somewhere else so the rest of his
crew wouldn't get the chance to slit his throat in his sleeping bag.
Dave

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How low can you go?
>From: (Dav1936531)
>Date: 7/28/03 9:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>
>>
>>But the never did it again because he was gone right after this happened..
>We never saw him again.
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Right. The powers that be had to move him somewhere else so the rest of his
>crew wouldn't get the chance to slit his throat in his sleeping bag.
>Dave


He was scaring the hell out of them, and the rest of us, for over a year. Good
riddance.But it could have been a lot worse.



Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve R.]

I would be glad to accept that picture if you wanted to e-mail me a copy.
;o)


"Walt BJ" > wrote in message
om...
<snip>
I also have a great picture of an F4 in full mil power - lots of black
smoke - rising up(!) towards the range tower - the platform of which
is 35 feet above the ground. He must have passed about one wingspan
from the tower. Prima-facie court-martial evidence in today's Air
Force . . .
Walt BJ

[tscottme]

James Hart > wrote in message
...
> Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping
himself.
> http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv
>
> --
> James...

I'm one jaded and hard to impress S.O.B. when it comes to airshow
demonstrations. But that clip is phucking terrific.

Thanks!

--
Scott
--------
Saudi Arabia is the enemy, let's stop pretending otherwise.

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
Errol Cavit > wrote:
(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message >...
><snip>
>> It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest - there were some deeply silly
>> things done in those days (a friend of my father's - a guy I met in his
>> older, more sensible days - got posted out to the far east after flying a
>> Sea Gladiator *underneath* the balcony of the admiral's house in IIRC
>> Durban - the house *was* on a cliff and I think the "underneath" was the
>> admiral looking down on the top wing, but still..).
>>
>ISTR reading a similar story in a FAA pilot's memoirs. IIRC the
>carrier was heading to the Far East, and the pilot decided to give his
>girlfriend in Capetown(?) a farewell flypast - not realising who daddy
>was.

If the book was "Carrier Pilot" by Norman Hanson, that's the man.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, "Steve R."
> wrote:

> I would be glad to accept that picture if you wanted to e-mail me a copy.
> ;o)
>
>
> "Walt BJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> <snip>
> I also have a great picture of an F4 in full mil power - lots of black
> smoke - rising up(!) towards the range tower - the platform of which
> is 35 feet above the ground. He must have passed about one wingspan
> from the tower. Prima-facie court-martial evidence in today's Air
> Force . . .

I was on a backpacking trip in the high Sierras, doing a east to west
trans-sierra.
As we were hiking down the Kern River canyon, a 3000 foot canyon about 1/2
mile across, with roar and thunder, an F-4 went down the canyon below us.
We were about 1000 feet down, but the canyon is pretty narrow, so he was
just slightly below and pretty close to us.
I swear I was able to look right in the cockpit for a fraction of a second.
Ballsy move on his part.
For those not in SoCal, this is pretty close to the Lake (China Lake).

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, James Hart <ng-
> writes
>Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping himself.
>http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv
>
That was Alain de Cadenet, sometime racing driver and Spitfire owner, in
a documentary about the Spitfire. It (more likely a retake) was shown on
Discovery (Wings?) in the UK some time ago, but without the "**** me!"
soundtrack. Shot at Duxford, I think.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Chad Irby]

Back in the early 1980s, I was stationed at George AFB, in Victorville,
CA. When you head west from Victorville, you have to go down through
the Cajon Pass to get to Los Angeles.

I was just topping the hill, and some lunatic in an F-4 went over low
enough that I felt the wind gust. He followed the Interstate down the
pass. Which made him go under some high tension lines, while cranked
over about 60 degrees to the left, less than 50 feet off of the ground...


Of course, if you like low-level flying, A-10 drivers are competely
insane. I've seen them come back from training flights with dirt on the
wingtips, and occasionally one lands with parts of a tree trunk embedded
in the leading edge.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How low can you go?
>From: Chad Irby
>Date: 7/29/03 4:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <YKDVa.1073$On2.19883@twist

>Back in the early 1980s, I was stationed at George AFB, in Victorville,
>CA. When you head west fro

Wasn't that a WW II Bombardier school?


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: How low can you go?
> >From: Chad Irby
> >Date: 7/29/03 4:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <YKDVa.1073$On2.19883@twist
>
> >Back in the early 1980s, I was stationed at George AFB, in Victorville,
> >CA.
>
> Wasn't that a WW II Bombardier school?

Yup.

It's now the Southern California Logistics Airport.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Gordon]

>
>Of course, if you like low-level flying, A-10 drivers are competely
>insane. I've seen them come back from training flights with dirt on the
>wingtips, and occasionally one lands with parts of a tree trunk embedded
>in the leading edge.

yes, and...? :) Sounds like a ton of fun to me!! My wife gets testy when I
'fly' down the interstate, about 4" from the retaining wall, pretending to have
spit sucked out of my mouth. Ok, maybe that IS a little strange, but without a
helicopter door to hang out of, life gets a tad boring....

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How low can you go?
>From: Chad Irby
>Date: 7/29/03 6:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>> >Subject: Re: How low can you go?
>> >From: Chad Irby
>> >Date: 7/29/03 4:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: <YKDVa.1073$On2.19883@twist
>>
>> >Back in the early 1980s, I was stationed at George AFB, in Victorville,
>> >CA.
>>
>> Wasn't that a WW II Bombardier school?
>
>Yup.
>
>It's now the Southern California Logistics Airport.
>
>--

>

We had a lot of guys from Victorville with the 344th in the ETO.. Good guys.
Good bombardiers.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> We had a lot of guys from Victorville with the 344th in the ETO.. Good guys.
> Good bombardiers.

Part of the reason they put a base there to begin with was the 300+ good
flying days per year. You get a lot more practice flying when the
forecast is hot and sunny or cold and sunny...

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Walt BJ]

Re that KC135 'low approach' - it was the usual schemozzle - they'd
been broken off a prior approach, cleared directly to downwind,
retracted the gear on the go and forgot it was up as they turned a
visual base and final. I guess that's been doen by hundreds of
pilots/crews; usually there's a wheels watch/RSU down there but none
of the fighters were flying that particular afternoon.
Lucky ucky lucky. SAC was notorious for lacking a sense of humor.
Walt BJ

[The Raven]

"James Hart" > wrote in message
...
> Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping
himself.
> http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv

I expect flames for this but.............

It seemed a totally irresponsible bit of flying, regardless of how
experience the pilot may have been. Very impressive without a doubt, but it
was risky to both the film crew and the pilot. What if something had gone
wrong? We'd all be lamenting the loss of the pilot and another irreplaceable
historic aircraft and blubbering about how tragic it all was.

Isn't this the very type of flying that is leading to a number of historic
aircraft (and crews) being lost all for the sake of impressing the
crowds/cameras?

I'm all for a good handling demonstration but don't risk the aircraft, the
pilots, or the spectators. You can't replace the aircraft nor the people who
get killed when things go wrong. With regards to historic relics, which is
what these aircraft are, it's one thing to operate them with care another to
recklessly abuse them to destruction.


Ok, I'll put my flame suit on now.

--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.

[The Raven]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: How low can you go?
> >From: "The Raven"
> >Date: 7/30/03 3:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"James Hart" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Now that's a pretty low flypast, no wonder the presenter's crapping
> >himself.
> >> http://www.airshows.tv/vids/ohmygod.wmv
> >
> >I expect flames for this but.............
> >
> >It seemed a totally irresponsible bit of flying, regardless of how
> >experience the pilot may have been. Very impressive without a doubt, but
it
> >was risky to both the film crew and the pilot. What if something had gone
> >wrong? We'd all be lamenting the loss of the pilot and another
irreplaceable
> >historic aircraft and blubbering about how tragic it all was.
> >
> >Isn't this the very type of flying that is leading to a number of
historic
> >aircraft (and crews) being lost all for the sake of impressing the
> >crowds/cameras?
> >
> >I'm all for a good handling demonstration but don't risk the aircraft,
the
> >pilots, or the spectators. You can't replace the aircraft nor the people
who
> >get killed when things go wrong. With regards to historic relics, which
is
> >what these aircraft are, it's one thing to operate them with care another
to
> >recklessly abuse them to destruction.
> >
> >
> >Ok, I'll put my flame suit on now.
> >
> >--
> >The Raven
> >http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
> >** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
> >** since August 15th 2000.
> >
> >
>
> No flames from me. You are dead (pun intended ) right. It's all
impressive
> until someone dies.

Exactly, except I'm not impressed watching someone risk a piece of history
or trying to "bend" it.

> Then we see it for what it is,. childish showing off.

I hear that the UK airshow circuit is one where the more exciting the
demonstration the better chance of being hired or sponsored to display. If
someone else wants to right off an historic aircraft, I'd rather it be them
than me.

> And
> pretty soon these hot shots find that their crews doesn't want to fly with
them
> anymore. Save us all from show-off pilots.

Hopefully peer pressure will influence these guys to better behaviour.

As I said, it's all impressive until something goes wrong. Let's face it,
would the average spectator really know the difference between a spirited
but safe maneouver and one that pushes the envelope? NO, so why do it.


--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.

[James Hart]

Henry Bibb wrote:
> Sigh. I went to the site to snag a copy of this, and it appears to
> be gone. Anybody got a copy you can email me?
> Remove the NOSPAM to reply.

I grabbed it:
http://jameshart.mine.nu/spitfire.wmv

[Nick Pedley]

"James Hart" > wrote in message
...
> Henry Bibb wrote:
> > Sigh. I went to the site to snag a copy of this, and it appears to
> > be gone. Anybody got a copy you can email me?
> > Remove the NOSPAM to reply.
>
> I grabbed it:
> http://jameshart.mine.nu/spitfire.wmv
>
>
Thanks James. That looks like one fun pass at first sight but re-runs show
how close the pilot was to disaster. I guess the camera was on a stand, if
I'd been holding you'd have seen a lot of grass!

Nick

[Walt BJ]

Here's where we'll see the difference between the multi drivers and
the single engine types. And how the instructors decided who went
which path in training.
I suppose now that a lot of fighters do have two engines my
terminology is not PC - but hell that's what it used to be. Okay -
fighters and targets - is that any better? After all, that definition
has a long history and was originated by a real expert. Anyway, "safe"
to a fighter-type mind is anything you can do without killing
yourself. To the other guys 'safe' doesn't include doing things just
for the hell of it. And fly the airplane to its max? Not a chance. If
I've offended anyone, gee, too bad, but then I am a fighter pilot
(retired), my mind-set hasn't changed, and won't, and I don't really
give a damn what other people think of that.
Walt Bj

[[email protected]]

> (Walt BJ) wrote:

>Here's where we'll see the difference between the multi drivers and
>the single engine types. And how the instructors decided who went
>which path in training.
>I suppose now that a lot of fighters do have two engines my
>terminology is not PC - but hell that's what it used to be. Okay -
>fighters and targets - is that any better? After all, that definition
>has a long history and was originated by a real expert. Anyway, "safe"
>to a fighter-type mind is anything you can do without killing
>yourself. To the other guys 'safe' doesn't include doing things just
>for the hell of it. And fly the airplane to its max? Not a chance. If
>I've offended anyone, gee, too bad, but then I am a fighter pilot
>(retired), my mind-set hasn't changed, and won't, and I don't really
>give a damn what other people think of that.
>Walt Bj

Well said. As you are a former F-104 jock, I have a question for you.
There are two privately-owned -104's based locally out of
Clearwater-St. Petersburg Int'l airport just three miles or so from my
house (see: http://www.starfighters.net/). Sitting here at my desk,
whenever I hear that eerie J-79 "howl" I literally run outside to
catch a glimpse of the Zipper(s). I've noticed that the sleek jets
rarely fly with any external wing tanks, and am just curious as to how
long an F-104 can remain aloft (e.g: range?) on internal fuel alone?
Assuming the pilot doesn't use the AB except for takeoff.

-Mike Marron

[Walt BJ]

Clean Zipper - about 1+40 and 800 nautical is a good guess. Winds,
ATC, and pilot technique can change that but not by much. That's
normal flying - a max endurance profile would give you a little more
time aloft but it'd be a boring flight stooging along at max L/D,
especially the idle glide descending to your destination. ATC would
probably screw that up letting airliners go in front of you. BTW this
is observing USAF VFR min fuel - 20 minutes (800#)at destination.
Walt BJ

[[email protected]]

> (Walt BJ) wrote:

>Clean Zipper - about 1+40 and 800 nautical is a good guess. Winds,
>ATC, and pilot technique can change that but not by much. That's
>normal flying - a max endurance profile would give you a little more
>time aloft but it'd be a boring flight stooging along at max L/D,
>especially the idle glide descending to your destination. ATC would
>probably screw that up letting airliners go in front of you. BTW this
>is observing USAF VFR min fuel - 20 minutes (800#)at destination.
>Walt BJ

Gracias. That's longer/furthur than I thought considering how slim
and sleek the airframe is and wet wings are obviously out of the
question. Where is the internal fuel tank located?

-Mike Marron

[Mary Shafer]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 04:52:15 GMT, "Steve R."
> wrote:

> I would be glad to accept that picture if you wanted to e-mail me a copy.
> ;o)
>
>
> "Walt BJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> <snip>
> I also have a great picture of an F4 in full mil power - lots of black
> smoke - rising up(!) towards the range tower - the platform of which
> is 35 feet above the ground. He must have passed about one wingspan
> from the tower. Prima-facie court-martial evidence in today's Air
> Force . . .

And I have a copy slide of the number 1 Blue Angel F-4 making a
gear-up landing.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Mary Shafer]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:43:51 -0700, (Harry
Andreas) wrote:

> I was on a backpacking trip in the high Sierras, doing a east to west
> trans-sierra.
> As we were hiking down the Kern River canyon, a 3000 foot canyon about 1/2
> mile across, with roar and thunder, an F-4 went down the canyon below us.
> We were about 1000 feet down, but the canyon is pretty narrow, so he was
> just slightly below and pretty close to us.
> I swear I was able to look right in the cockpit for a fraction of a second.
> Ballsy move on his part.
> For those not in SoCal, this is pretty close to the Lake (China Lake).

It could have been from Edwards AFB. When I got my F-4 ride, we went
up the canyon well below the top of it, albeit only to the edge of the
wilderness area. This was, apparently, a standard technique for the
USAF F-4 drivers.

It was pretty spiffy, I tell you.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Steve R.]

Oooh! That would be a good one too. Could I bother you for a e-mailed copy
Mary?
Thanks,
Steve R.

"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...

And I have a copy slide of the number 1 Blue Angel F-4 making a
gear-up landing.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Walt BJ]

All in the fuselage. The A model holds 5824 pounds, 754 gallons usable
fuel, in four interconnected cells. It is fueled 'over the wing'
through two ports. The auxiliary cell is forward, holds 143 gallons
and is burned first via a tranfer pump. This is for CG control. FWIW
this aux fuel does not show on the fuel quantity indicator. The
forward main cell (491 gal) and the aft cells (2x36 gal, 1x190 gal)
burn down equally. The aft center 190gal cell is between the engine
air inlet ducts. The aft right and left 36 gal cells fit around the
air inlet ducts outboard of the aft center cell. The four electric
boost pumps are in the forward main cell and feed the engine-driven
boost pump. The B model did not have the forward (aux) fuel cell and
was therefore short on fuel and so we normally carried tip tanks (or
2xAIM9 plus pylon tanks) on it. There is an option in the G model and
I think the CF104 for a 122 gallon cell in the gun bay. Further info =
pylon tank usable fuel 195 each; tiptanks usable fuel 170 each. FWIW
filling with JP5, due to greater density, gave 6050 internal fuel,
about 4% more. Also FWIW a four tanked F104 could out range a
three-tank F4 considerably - 3:00 hours and 1500 miles practicable by
dropping externals as emptied, with another 300 miles at cruise
altitude to zero fuel remaining.
Walt BJ

[sirius]

> I have a friend who swears that he has looked down on a RNZAF Skyhawk
> flying over the flightdeck from the roof of the frigate's hanger.
> (see msg id > )


I had a flight with 2 Squadron out of Nowra in February 1993. Three
A-4Ks and "my" TA-4K spent an hour and a half attacking a combined
RAN/RNZN task group about 50 miles off the coast. The Kiwis fly at 50
feet, which is what the altimeter and the HUD repeater in the rear
cockpit said, too.

We had to go between the ships as we were too low to go over them.

Two RAAF Hornets were on the same mission, but were only cleared down to
250 feet. The Kiwi pilots told me the Aussies would get nosebleeds "way
up there". :-)

Jeff

[sirius]

At the October 1993 PhanCon at Birmingham, Alabama the unit put most of
its RF-4Cs up for a series of flypasts and several of them flew
individual passes along the runway with the hook down and dragging a
shower of sparks.

Jeff

[sirius]

> Thanks James. That looks like one fun pass at first sight but re-runs
show
> how close the pilot was to disaster. I guess the camera was on a
stand, if
> I'd been holding you'd have seen a lot of grass!


You can see the shadow rise up towards the aircraft at one point, so the
ground wasn't as flat as it looks. I wonder how close his prop tips were
to the ground then.

It's definitely a "holy ****" pass, but it put a very valuable aircraft
at risk, as well as at least three lives, and if he'd crashed or even
"just" sliced the reporter and cameraman to red froth without crashing
the aircraft, it wouldn't have had a favourable effect on the continued
operation of warbirds.

Jeff

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article <6yMWa.4889$Fy1.227440@localhost>,
sirius > wrote:
>> Thanks James. That looks like one fun pass at first sight but re-runs
>show
>> how close the pilot was to disaster. I guess the camera was on a
>stand, if
>> I'd been holding you'd have seen a lot of grass!
>
>It's definitely a "holy ****" pass, but it put a very valuable aircraft
>at risk, as well as at least three lives, and if he'd crashed or even
>"just" sliced the reporter and cameraman to red froth without crashing
>the aircraft, it wouldn't have had a favourable effect on the continued
>operation of warbirds.

One of the most spectacular low passes I've ever seen at an airshow was
25-30 odd years ago at Sunderland, when the RN historical flight Firefly
came in towards the airfield so low that it literally came up into view
as it climbed over the rise in the field. Spectacular, and very well done
by very professional people.

Picked up this month's Aeroplane Montly yesaterday to read that the same
Firefly went in at Duxford on the 12th last month, killing both crew. It
doesn't seem to have been the result of going especially low (apart,
obviously, from right at the end), but it doesn't half make one think.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

[Ditch]

>Of course, these
>are the same "pilots who fly gliders" who never leave the local area
>and are perfectly happy in some 30 year old POS training glider,
>waffling around in 10 degrees of bank - in other words, TARGETS!

In the powered flight community, we call 'em Cessna Warriors.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Mary Shafer]

On 2 Aug 2003 08:57:54 -0700, (Kirk Stant)
wrote:

> Funny, we have the same split in the gliding community. Some of us
> love to finish off a nice long flight with a redline low pass over the
> runway, pulling up to pattern altitude to configure and land,
> meanwhile dumping our water all over the crowd on the ground. It's
> called a "contest finish", so we are always practicing for a contest.
> And without a prop in the way, you can get really low!

One of our test pilots was killed doing this. Not because he got too
low, but because the covering on the elevators delaminated (starting
at the seam on the leading edge) and he suddenly had no pitch control
at all.

That was over twenty years ago, now that I think about it.

Mary

[[email protected]]

> (Kirk Stant) wrote:
>>Mary Shafer > wrote:

>>One of our test pilots was killed doing this. Not because he got too
>>low, but because the covering on the elevators delaminated (starting
>>at the seam on the leading edge) and he suddenly had no pitch control
>>at all.

>Unlucky. However, as you say, low altitude isn't what caused the
>elevator to fail. Unless he was wearing a chute, this would have been
>fatal anywhere! Which is one reason I always wear a chute in my
>glider.

>Sure there is some risk, but my approach it to limit my risk (good
>equipment, current skill, careful execution) and avoid risk to others
>(no overflying people or planes/buildings/cars etc on the ground
>during a pass). I can live with that (or maybe not, who knows - c'est
>la vie!)

The TV cameraman laying on his back to film me while I flew over
him was a professional, as am I. Normally, I adhere to Part 91
(e.g: the "500 ft. horizontal and/or vertical distance" thing) when
flying.

>Sounds like he was flying a Blanik (which had fabric covered
>elevators). Nice plane, but not my choice for a low pass (too
>draggy).

I fly the Blanik and other sailplanes but have never witnessed
a "contest finish" (e.g: low pass while dumping H2O on the crowd)
yet.

Several years ago a day before Sun 'N Fun (EAA airshow in
Lakeland, FL) opened their gates to the public I was hanging
out at the airport while all was quiet and suddenly heard a
"swooshing" sound overhead.

I looked up and saw a sleek, V-tailed glider flying inverted no more
than 30-50 ft. off the deck. Then the pilot pushed up executing a
perfect half outside loop, rolled inverted again, deployed the tail
chute and landed on the grass strip.

It was Manfred Radius, the famed Canadian glider pilot and
true Skygod practicing his airshow routine in his H-101 Salto
sailplane.

-Mike Marron

[Walt BJ]

I was in the 326FIS at R-G AFB KC MO around 1960. We didn't have an
ILS at RG so we used to take our F102s over to Topeka Municipal, about
50 miles away, to shoot them. I'd made a couple ILS approaches when
the tower asked for a low pass. I replied "How low?" and the FAA type
(!) advised me "There's 1/4 inch pea gravel on the overrun." I wasn't
that low . .
Walt BJ

[Gooneybird]

Did you happen to know a bird colonel named Art Beall? Seems to me he was at
Dickie Goober at about that time....he was a Rescue type.....flew both
conventional and choppers.

George Z.

"Walt BJ" > wrote in message
om...
> I was in the 326FIS at R-G AFB KC MO around 1960. We didn't have an
> ILS at RG so we used to take our F102s over to Topeka Municipal, about
> 50 miles away, to shoot them. I'd made a couple ILS approaches when
> the tower asked for a low pass. I replied "How low?" and the FAA type
> (!) advised me "There's 1/4 inch pea gravel on the overrun." I wasn't
> that low . .
> Walt BJ

[John R Weiss]

"Kirk Stant" > wrote...
>
> Is there still a program for test pilots to fly gliders?

AFAIK, Navy TPS still has a glider (or 2?).

[John Halliwell]

In article <LNAVa.8361$cF.2474@rwcrnsc53>, Lynn Coffelt
> writes
> Just can't resist telling of watching PBY's from Whidbey NAS flying
>down the Guemas Channel during WWII.

Reminds me of the start of that firebombing movie (Always?).

--
John