Re: U-234 mention in the paper

[Keith Willshaw]

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...

>
> Article goes on to explain how well Marienfeld was brainwashed by the
Nazis,
> giving good examples of his warped outlook on the war. I thought it was
> strange that even the AP knew that the U-234 was bound for Japan, the day
after
> it was captured.
>

Hardly that strange, it surrendered to the USS Sutton on 14 May
and since the submarine had contacted the allies on 10th May when ordered
to surrender and had made known her intentions it can scarcely have been
a surprise.

As for the cargo it was carrying around 500kg of natural Uranium Oxide,
nothing like enough to build a reactor but which in the absence of tungsten
or chrome was a useful additive for hardening steel.

Keith

[vzlion]

I there was a Me262 on board it never saw the light of day. There is
no record of it appearing anywhere in the US.

Walt
>
>There was an Me 262 on board. The uranium may have been intended as
>catalyst for the production of methanol and fuel additives from coal. It
>has to be said that the Germans did have a nuclear weapons program.
>
>When will these documents be declassified?
>
>
>
>



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[Dav1936531]

>From: "The Enlightenment"
>
>
>He was also very critical of the shoddy and brutal treatment they received by
some elements of the US navy after surrendering to the Canadians. Also annoyed
at what they regarded as paranoia. The Germans regarded the Americans as
totally overcome by anti-nazi propaganda and demonisation of them and told them
this.<

Of course, by this time word of the Nazi's extermination camps had become
widespread. Of course, this guy spent most of the war stuffed in a submarine
and probably had little real sense of the aura of outrage in the American
forces. He probably was lucky not to have been slapped around by some US Navy
guy for even opening his mouth on the subject.
Dave

[Mark]

Submarines must have been a lot roomier than thought after watching "Das
Boot" :)

Perhaps lashed to the deck??

Mark

"vzlion" > wrote in message
...
> I there was a Me262 on board it never saw the light of day. There is
> no record of it appearing anywhere in the US.
>
> Walt
> >
> >There was an Me 262 on board. The uranium may have been intended as
> >catalyst for the production of methanol and fuel additives from coal. It
> >has to be said that the Germans did have a nuclear weapons program.
> >
> >When will these documents be declassified?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

[Gooneybird]

I vaguely recall that the U-234 was one of those cargo-carrying subs not
designed for underwater combat, and they were somewhat larger than the rest of
the U-boat fleet.

I just checked Google and came up with this at
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/map_u0234.html:



U-234
Cargo U-boat bound for Japan when war ended, surrendered to U.S.
authorities at sea carrying a total cargo of 260 tons, including uranium oxide
ore, mercury, and the component parts for an Me 262 jet fighter.

Type: X B
Built: Germaniawerft, Kiel
Keel laid: 1 October 1941
Launched: 23 December 1943
Commissioned: 2 March 1944
Commander: KL Johann-Heinrich Fehler
Fate: Surrendered to destroyer escort USS Sutton east of the Flemish Cap,
14 May 1945, after two Japanese passengers committed suicide. Other passengers
bound for Japan included several Luftwaffe officers and technical specialists
intended to improve Japanese aircraft defenses. The U.S. Navy used U-234 for
experimental trials and then sank her off Cape Cod, November 1946.

George Z.









"Mark" > wrote in message
m...
> Submarines must have been a lot roomier than thought after watching "Das
> Boot" :)
>
> Perhaps lashed to the deck??
>
> Mark
>
> "vzlion" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I there was a Me262 on board it never saw the light of day. There is
> > no record of it appearing anywhere in the US.
> >
> > Walt
> > >
> > >There was an Me 262 on board. The uranium may have been intended as
> > >catalyst for the production of methanol and fuel additives from coal. It
> > >has to be said that the Germans did have a nuclear weapons program.
> > >
> > >When will these documents be declassified?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
>
>

[Mark]

Thanks for the info....

Notice there is a DVD and books on this sub (search amazon for U-234)

Also here is info on the 'final resting place'

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-234.htm

Mark


"Gooneybird" > wrote in message
...
> I vaguely recall that the U-234 was one of those cargo-carrying subs not
> designed for underwater combat, and they were somewhat larger than the
rest of
> the U-boat fleet.
>
> I just checked Google and came up with this at
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/map_u0234.html:
>
>
>
> U-234
> Cargo U-boat bound for Japan when war ended, surrendered to U.S.
> authorities at sea carrying a total cargo of 260 tons, including uranium
oxide
> ore, mercury, and the component parts for an Me 262 jet fighter.
>
> Type: X B
> Built: Germaniawerft, Kiel
> Keel laid: 1 October 1941
> Launched: 23 December 1943
> Commissioned: 2 March 1944
> Commander: KL Johann-Heinrich Fehler
> Fate: Surrendered to destroyer escort USS Sutton east of the Flemish
Cap,
> 14 May 1945, after two Japanese passengers committed suicide. Other
passengers
> bound for Japan included several Luftwaffe officers and technical
specialists
> intended to improve Japanese aircraft defenses. The U.S. Navy used U-234
for
> experimental trials and then sank her off Cape Cod, November 1946.
>
> George Z.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mark" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Submarines must have been a lot roomier than thought after watching "Das
> > Boot" :)
> >
> > Perhaps lashed to the deck??
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > "vzlion" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I there was a Me262 on board it never saw the light of day. There is
> > > no record of it appearing anywhere in the US.
> > >
> > > Walt
> > > >
> > > >There was an Me 262 on board. The uranium may have been intended as
> > > >catalyst for the production of methanol and fuel additives from coal.
It
> > > >has to be said that the Germans did have a nuclear weapons program.
> > > >
> > > >When will these documents be declassified?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
> >
> >
>
>

[The Enlightenment]

"Gooneybird" > wrote in message
...
> I vaguely recall that the U-234 was one of those cargo-carrying subs not
> designed for underwater combat, and they were somewhat larger than the
rest of
> the U-boat fleet.
>
> I just checked Google and came up with this at
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/map_u0234.html:
>
>
>
> U-234
> Cargo U-boat bound for Japan when war ended, surrendered to U.S.
> authorities at sea carrying a total cargo of 260 tons, including uranium
oxide
> ore, mercury, and the component parts for an Me 262 jet fighter.
>
> Type: X B
> Built: Germaniawerft, Kiel
> Keel laid: 1 October 1941
> Launched: 23 December 1943
> Commissioned: 2 March 1944
> Commander: KL Johann-Heinrich Fehler
> Fate: Surrendered to destroyer escort USS Sutton east of the Flemish
Cap,
> 14 May 1945, after two Japanese passengers committed suicide. Other
passengers
> bound for Japan included several Luftwaffe officers and technical
specialists
> intended to improve Japanese aircraft defenses. The U.S. Navy used U-234
for
> experimental trials and then sank her off Cape Cod, November 1946.
>
> George Z.
>
>

The Germans tried pretty hard to stop the Japanese committing suicide but in
the end the two Japanese managed to do so. One of them was quite famous for
inventing an automatic depth keeping controller. The Germans had
considered continuing on to Japan rather than surrender but were actually
afraid of being treated harshly because they had heard of harsh treatment of
Europeans. This despite the fact that the Japanese had sworn on their honor
to ensure their excellent treatment. Hirschfeld regretfully mentions that
it turns out the Japanese gave outstanding treatment to Axis caught in Japan
after the surrender of Germany.

These subs I believe were not only mine layers but had been used as 'milk
cows' to rearm and refuel other subs. They were quite large and could
manage 40,000 nautical miles at 8 knots.

[Keith Willshaw]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> The Germans tried pretty hard to stop the Japanese committing suicide but
in
> the end the two Japanese managed to do so. One of them was quite famous
for
> inventing an automatic depth keeping controller. The Germans had
> considered continuing on to Japan rather than surrender but were actually
> afraid of being treated harshly because they had heard of harsh treatment
of
> Europeans. This despite the fact that the Japanese had sworn on their
honor
> to ensure their excellent treatment. Hirschfeld regretfully mentions that
> it turns out the Japanese gave outstanding treatment to Axis caught in
Japan
> after the surrender of Germany.
>
> These subs I believe were not only mine layers but had been used as 'milk
> cows' to rearm and refuel other subs. They were quite large and could
> manage 40,000 nautical miles at 8 knots.
>
>

The Milch cows were type XIV boats outfitted as refuelling tankers,
they were all sunk by 1945, radar equipped search aircraft made their
mission suicidal. Of the 10 'Milk Cows' built 3 of them were sunk on
their maiden patrol and two had only been on patrols for around 2 weeks
when sunk.

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"Dav1936531" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "The Enlightenment"
> >
> >
> >I see that you have high moral standards and sophisticated ethical
> >knowledge.
>
> Hey, I wasn't then and am not now a Nazi....as opposed to that U-boat
captain
> boo-hooing over his "rough and insulting" treatment. But the Nazis never
did
> anything morally repugnate, and NEVER dealt out "rough and insulting"
treatment
> to their prisoners, right?
> Dave
>

Of course they did which is a good reason for not adopting their
methods, even if the captain was a Nazi, which is unproven
he was still entitled to be treated as per the Geneva convention.

Keith

[Dav1936531]

>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>
>
>Of course they did which is a good reason for not adopting their
>methods, even if the captain was a Nazi, which is unproven
>he was still entitled to be treated as per the Geneva convention.
>Keith

The other poster said he was complaining about rough treatment and having been
"demonized" by American personnel stuffed full of anti-Nazi propaganda. He
didn't mention that he wasn't treated as per the Geneva convention. Do you have
information that he wasn't?

I am not sure that receiving a fat lip after one gets sassy with your POW guard
violates the convention, or would call for an inquiry even.
Dave

[Keith Willshaw]

"Dav1936531" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
> >
> >
> >Of course they did which is a good reason for not adopting their
> >methods, even if the captain was a Nazi, which is unproven
> >he was still entitled to be treated as per the Geneva convention.
> >Keith
>
> The other poster said he was complaining about rough treatment and having
been
> "demonized" by American personnel stuffed full of anti-Nazi propaganda. He
> didn't mention that he wasn't treated as per the Geneva convention. Do you
have
> information that he wasn't?
>

rough treatment would appear to contravene the Geneva Convention

<Quote>
Art 13. Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful
act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously
endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited,
and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In
particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to
medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the
medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried
out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly
against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public
curiosity.
</Quote>


> I am not sure that receiving a fat lip after one gets sassy with your POW
guard
> violates the convention, or would call for an inquiry even.

It does and would just as as a civil prison officer giving a fat lip to a
sassy
inmate woukd be illegal and call for an inquiry.

> Dave

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >As for the cargo it was carrying around 500kg of natural Uranium Oxide,
> >nothing like enough to build a reactor but which in the absence of
tungsten
> >or chrome was a useful additive for hardening steel.
>
> Well,Keith U-234 was carying besides u-235 you mentioned,something much
more
> important than that, namely 12 steel canisters. After a
military-scientific
> commission investigated the canisters,the chairman of commission stated in
July
> 1945 that the Germans were "100 years ahead of US".
> Some documents should stay at least 75 years under the lock.
>
>

Ah yes mysterious documents who's existence cant be proven cause they
are so sekrit that only readers pf konspiracy magazine know of their
existence.

And of course the Nazis had a zillion atom bombs but kindly
Uncle Adolf didnt want to use them against those nice Russians
who were sending him birthday greetings by howitzer.

Silly season is here again.

Keith

[Clark]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in news:bgmbo3
:

[snip]
>
> Silly season is here again.
>
In a newsgroup with T*rver, D*nyev, B*rtie, etc., does silly season ever end?

:-)

[Keith Willshaw]

"Clark" <stillnospam@me> wrote in message
...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in news:bgmbo3
> :
>
> [snip]
> >
> > Silly season is here again.
> >
> In a newsgroup with T*rver, D*nyev, B*rtie, etc., does silly season ever
end?
>
> :-)
>

True very true

I defer to your greater insight.

Keith

[Lawrence Dillard]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...

SNIP

> Well,Keith U-234 was carying besides u-235 you mentioned,something much
more
> important than that, namely 12 steel canisters. After a
military-scientific
> commission investigated the canisters,the chairman of commission stated in
July
> 1945 that the Germans were "100 years ahead of US".
> Some documents should stay at least 75 years under the lock.

This one is hard to accept, inasmuch as the cargo was being sent to Japan.
Is it logical to conclude that Hitler's Germany would send technology so
advanced that she could not herself make use of it, to Japan, which at the
time certainly had no comparable technological base from which to capitalize
on it, so late in the day?

>
>

[Dav1936531]

>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>

>>"Dav1936531" > wrote
>> I am not sure that receiving a fat lip after one gets sassy with your POW
guard violates the convention, or would call for an inquiry even.

>It does and would just as as a civil prison officer giving a fat lip to a
sassy inmate woukd be illegal and call for an inquiry.
>Keith

The law is only as good as it's enforcment. The guy is lucky he didn't get his
teeth bashed out.
Dave

[Keith Willshaw]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >This one is hard to accept, inasmuch as the cargo was being sent to
Japan.
> >Is it logical to conclude that Hitler's Germany would send technology so
> >advanced that she could not herself make use of it, to Japan, which at
the
> >time certainly had no comparable technological base from which to
capitalize
> >on it, so late in the day?
>
> Actualy they were in process but they needed two more months for nuclear
> weapons and at least 8 months for America rocket.
> BTW advances in German advanced weapon research was the real reason behind
> Normandy landings.

Actually the real reason was to make sure Western Europe didnt
become part of the Soviet Empire

Keith

[Vaughn]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> I am sure Uncle Adolf would use atom bombs aganist anyone,even aganist
Germans
> only if he had one.
> He needed only two months more to do that when US forces occupied
Thuringen
> Forest.
I would like to see your source on that one. My understanding is
that the Germans were years from nuclear success. There is a picture that
sometimes surfaces of a convincing-looking nuclear reactor, but they never
made it work. They never achieved a chain reaction, a basic step towards
designing and producing a plutonium weapon. Several books/articles that I
have read point to one crucial miscalculation, they had miscalculated the
cross-section of the Uranium atom to a neutron reaction. There is some
speculation that the miscalculation was deliberate. I know of no Uranium
separation plants that they had on a sufficient scale to make a weapon
within any short time frame, so they were not near to building a Uranium
weapon. For an idea what that takes, go visit Oak Ridge.

> BTW Keith, after the cease-fire British forces seized in Hamburg 10 t
stored
> heavy water
Heavy water is convenient, because it is a very good moderator of
neutrons and makes it much easier to make a nuclear reactor. However, it is
not a necessary or even a common part of today's nuclear reactors and AFAIK
is not used in nuclear weapons at all.


>,what do you thing Germans,famous for their precise
> bookkeeping,simply forget such important ware neccesary for the
development of
> their nuclear program in a warehouse in Hamburg?

Who says they did?

[B2431]

>Actualy they were in process but they needed two more months for nuclear
>weapons and at least 8 months for America rocket.
>BTW advances in German advanced weapon research was the real reason behind
>Normandy landings.
>
I sure would like to know what history books you have been reading. The
invasion of Normandy along with the one from the south was to keep the Soviets
from occupying nothern and central Europe.

As for the 2 months until they had an atomic bomb I'd sure like to know when
they were going to get sufficient uranium or plutonium since they had no where
near enough in May 1945. The Brits put the German nuke progam scientists in a
well bugged house in England after they were captured. They reacted to the news
of the atomic bombing of Japan with shock. They couldn't understand how the
U.S. had pulled it off since they themselves hadn't figured out how to do it.

As for the Amerika rocket IIRC its payload was around 500 - 1000 kg. I may be
wrong, but that's how I remember it. They never intended to heave nukes with
it.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> ...
> >

> Good point Keith!
>
> I went there once, they've made a really good job of reconstructing the
> array for the experiment. Haigerloch is also notable for the quality of
its
> beer, btw!
>
> http://www.haigerloch.de/stadt/keller_englisch/EKELLER.HTM
>
> John
>
>

Its definitely on my 'must see' list

Keith

[Denyav]

>They attempted to control it by lowering cubes of uranium on
>chains into the heavy water, had they achieved criticallity it
>would have killed everyone in the immediate area.

Right Keith but problem is that some Germans were already using graphite as
moderator.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >I rather doubt they ever seized any such thing, the heavy water used
> >in research at Hamburg came from Verwork and I KNOW that
> >heavy water isnt necessary to enrich uranium or build a working
> >reactor.
>
> Yes,if you start using graphite as moderator you dont need heavy water
anymore.
>
> >Nobody, I happen to know the some of those who developed
> >the centrifuge technology for BNFL (now Urenco) in the 60's and 70's
> >
> >Prior to that they, like the Soviets and Americans used gaseous diffusion
> >The first US centrifuge system went live at Piketon Ohio in the 1980's
> >
> >If we examine the Soviet plants we see
> >
> >Angarsk Electrolytic Chemical Combine (AEKhK)
> >1957, 308 gas diffusion machines
> >
> >ELECTROCHEMICAL PLANT (EKhZ)
> >aka Kranoyarsk-45 decommisioned its
> >gaseous diffusion plant in 1990
> >
> >Urals Electrochemical Combine (UEKhK)
> >began producing highly enriched uranium (HEU) in 1949
> >using the gaseous diffusion process
> >
> >Siberian Chemical Combine (SKhK)
> >aka Tomsk-7 established in 1949, and began producing highly enriched
> >uranium (HEU) for the Soviet nuclear weapons program in 1953.
> >using the gaseous diffusion process
> >
> >
> >The centrifuge process requires both precision engineering and
> >some rather exotic alloys as the feed stock, uranium hexafluoride
> >is amazing corrosive. The Germans lacked the basic alloys necessary
> >which critically affected their enrichment programmes in the same
> >way it delayed their jet engine pogramme.
>
> The father of modern gas cenrifuges is Dr.Zippe,he is the one who
developed
> german cetrifuges for Kammlers SS advanced weapons research.
> After war he was jailed and taken to USSR,soviets asked him to build a
> centrifuge with 10% efficiency (regarded as a very good value during that
time
> by both Soviets and Americans) but he came up with a design with
asthonishing
> (for that time) efficieny almost 30% .(needless to say this design

Pure fantasy

The best efficiency for a single centrifuge is VERY much smaller
than 30%, thats why they build trains of dozens of the damm things

> was a
> slightly improved version of Kammlers centrifuges).
> Soviets etremely impressed by his work offered him a monetary award and a
free
> ticket home.
> In 50s Dr.Zippe came to US and took a faculty position at Virginia Tech,I
am
> sure the quality of US centrifuge designers he helped to train would say
> something about the quality of this centrifuge pioneering talent.
>

They would , they'd say he never designed a single one since all
US enrichment plants until 1981 were the gaseous diffusion type

http://www.nrc.gov/materials/fuel-cycle-fac/faq.html

Keith

[Denyav]

>The best efficiency for a single centrifuge is VERY much smaller
>than 30%, thats why they build trains of dozens of the damm things
>

Thats because of seperation factor which is around 1,05.

>They would , they'd say he never designed a single one since all
>US enrichment plants until 1981 were the gaseous diffusion type
>

Thats correct and proves my point ,before arrival of Zippe at Virginia,US was a
backward country as far as gas centrifuge technology concerned and to correct
this situation US scientists launched a campaign to bring Zippe to US as
development helper.Only after Zippe's arrival,US recognized the importance of
centrifuge technology for the production of nuclear weapons,as a consequense of
this late recognization US pressurized (West) German goverment to classify ALL
centrifuge research made in (West) Germany.West German government bowed to US
pressure and classifed ALL German centrifuge research on August 1,1960,needless
to say many of classified research was conducted by Zippe.
(I always wondered why US classifies so many scientific documents,to protect
advanced US technology or to protect much more advanced foreign technology?)