U-234 and Me262

[vzlion]

I've been following the thread on the U-234 and was most intetested in
the statement that there was a Me262 on board. Can anyone provide any
substantial evidence of this, other than the statement that there was
one on board? And if there was one on board what happened to it? I
would assume that if there was one aboard that it remained in Navy
hands. There doesn't appear to be any Navy records of it.

Walt



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[Keith Willshaw]

"vzlion" > wrote in message
...
> I've been following the thread on the U-234 and was most intetested in
> the statement that there was a Me262 on board. Can anyone provide any
> substantial evidence of this, other than the statement that there was
> one on board? And if there was one on board what happened to it? I
> would assume that if there was one aboard that it remained in Navy
> hands. There doesn't appear to be any Navy records of it.
>
> Walt
>

There was no complete Me-262, there were components for
one. The cargo was carried in multiple containers fitted in
place of the mines the type normally carried.

Given that the sllies captured hundreds of intact Me-262's
many in flyable condition I doubt much was done with these bits.

Keith

[robert arndt]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "vzlion" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I've been following the thread on the U-234 and was most intetested in
> > the statement that there was a Me262 on board. Can anyone provide any
> > substantial evidence of this, other than the statement that there was
> > one on board? And if there was one on board what happened to it? I
> > would assume that if there was one aboard that it remained in Navy
> > hands. There doesn't appear to be any Navy records of it.
> >
> > Walt
> >
>
> There was no complete Me-262, there were components for
> one. The cargo was carried in multiple containers fitted in
> place of the mines the type normally carried.
>
> Given that the sllies captured hundreds of intact Me-262's
> many in flyable condition I doubt much was done with these bits.
>
> Keith

To be more exact there were 240 tons of German documents and war
materials aboard U-234. The war material included 560 kg of Uranium
Oxide, jet & rocket components for missiles and aircraft, the latest
proximity fuses and AP shells, a complete pressurized pilot's chamber,
and various other stocks of strategic materials along with components
to various guidance systems.
The boat also carried several Messerschmitt engineers with documents
on the latest jet aircraft... but no complete aircraft, just
components in storage containers.

Rob

[Keith Willshaw]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "vzlion" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I've been following the thread on the U-234 and was most intetested in
> > > the statement that there was a Me262 on board. Can anyone provide any
> > > substantial evidence of this, other than the statement that there was
> > > one on board? And if there was one on board what happened to it? I
> > > would assume that if there was one aboard that it remained in Navy
> > > hands. There doesn't appear to be any Navy records of it.
> > >
> > > Walt
> > >
> >
> > There was no complete Me-262, there were components for
> > one. The cargo was carried in multiple containers fitted in
> > place of the mines the type normally carried.
> >
> > Given that the sllies captured hundreds of intact Me-262's
> > many in flyable condition I doubt much was done with these bits.
> >
> > Keith
>
> To be more exact there were 240 tons of German documents and war
> materials aboard U-234. The war material included 560 kg of Uranium
> Oxide, jet & rocket components for missiles and aircraft, the latest
> proximity fuses and AP shells, a complete pressurized pilot's chamber,
> and various other stocks of strategic materials along with components
> to various guidance systems.

To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron and miniaturized electronics
necessary.IRC correctly the best they could manage was the "Kranich"
acoustic proximity fuze.

> The boat also carried several Messerschmitt engineers with documents

For several read two, August Bringewalde, Willi Messerschmitt's "right-hand
man"
who was in charge of ME 262 production, and Franz Ruf, an industrial
machinery
specialist who designed machines and appliances to manufacture aircraft
components.

> on the latest jet aircraft... but no complete aircraft, just
> components in storage containers.
>

correct

Keith

[Lawrence Dillard]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "vzlion" > wrote in message
> > > ...

SNIP


> To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
> fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron and miniaturized electronics
> necessary.IRC correctly the best they could manage was the "Kranich"
> acoustic proximity fuze.

By the time the shipment had been readied, the German had in their
possession possibly several dozen "dud" Allied proximity fuses, recovered
from the battlefield. Gen Eisenhower had authorized the use of these devices
over land at the onset of the Ardennes Offensive. German authorities offered
soldiers a bounty for the recovery of partial or complete "duds". Their
analysis revealed the super-tough tubes employed therein.

However, no Allied proximity fuse developed duringWWII used the resonant
cavity magnetron. Research and development on the miniaturization of such
devices had not begun by the end of the conflict in Europe. Instead, a radio
signal on a lower frequency was used.

As best I've been able to learn, the characteristics of the cavitron were
better and more fully understood only long after the war, when it was
realized that these devices could be fabricated from a far lesser amount of
material (and from materials less dear than copper) than formerly had been
used.

A form of "smart" artillery shells was built, (at least in the US, during
the 1970's) using a rather tiny, shrunken cavitron in conjunction with some
form of "guidance fins" on the shell body. The cavitron allowed friendly
artillery to loft shells to the area of an enemy advance; other circuitry
connected to the return radio-wave receiver could discern between a target
of great mass (i.e., armor) and a target of lesser mass (i.e., a lorry) and
to "select" the more massive (and presumably more valuable) target, for
which the "fins" served for terminal steering.

Individual shells could either achieve a direct hit on the selected target,
or detonate overhead of it within sufficient proximity to disable a tank or
self-propelled artillery, for example.

>
SNIP

[Lawrence Dillard]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lawrence Dillard" > wrote in message
> ...

SNIP

> >
> >
> > > To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
> > > fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron

SNIP
proximity fuze.
> >
> > By the time the shipment had been readied, the German had in their
> > possession possibly several dozen "dud" Allied proximity fuses,
recovered
> > from the battlefield.

SNIP

> More alarming was the capture of an ammunition dump that included
> stock of intact unfired shells. The allies didnt know if the Germans had
> seized any and so launched a crash investigation to see if jamming the
> fuze was possible

As I understand the situation, early firing trails at sea disclosed that
certain types of clouds could cause proximity shells to detonate as if a
true target ad been encountered. This realization led to research into
whether such fuzes could deliberately be "foxed" by an enemy; circuitry was
incorporated into production items to neutralize such attempts.

The Germans apparently overran not one but several several US ammo dumps in
the first hours of the offensive, but in their haste failed to notice that
the fuzes of certain batches of US shells were somewhat different from the
run-of-the-mill, and therefore left them undisturbed. After all, as far as
the Germans were concerned, only the Third Reich had Secret Weapons. Otto
Skorzeny himself allegedly was the recipient of the first such shell used by
Allied forces, (without due authorization) also in the early hours of the
attack. He added to his collection of wounds in the incident when his
armored vehicle was fired on by a proximity-fuzed shell.

> >
> > However, no Allied proximity fuse developed duringWWII used the resonant
> > cavity magnetron.
> >
SNIP
> > Instead, a radio signal on a lower frequency was used.

>
> The frequency used was 180 to 220 MHz according to
> http://www.smecc.org/radio_proximity_fuzes.htm
>

Accepting that as accurate, Microwave Radio emissions encompass the range of
3,000MHZ--30,000MHZ frequency at wavelengths of from 10 CM--1CM.

Radar at 180-220MHZ frequency should prove to have a wavelength of at least
a meter. As usual, I am open to correction on the matter, but neither the
frequency quoted above nor the associated wavelength meet the requirements
of Microwave Radio transmission.

[robert arndt]

> >
> > To be more exact there were 240 tons of German documents and war
> > materials aboard U-234. The war material included 560 kg of Uranium
> > Oxide, jet & rocket components for missiles and aircraft, the latest
> > proximity fuses and AP shells, a complete pressurized pilot's chamber,
> > and various other stocks of strategic materials along with components
> > to various guidance systems.
>
> To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
> fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron and miniaturized electronics
> necessary.IRC correctly the best they could manage was the "Kranich"
> acoustic proximity fuze.

Try all these:

Bad: Acoustic, Graf Zeppelin Institute
Elku/Paplitz: Electro-Acoustic, ELAK, Kiel
Fuchs: Radio, AEG, Berlin
Isegrimm: Electrmagnetic, Ernst Orlich Institute, Danzig
Kakadu: Radio, Donaulandische GmbH, Vienna (3000 produced for Hs 293)
Kranich: Acoustic, Ruhrstahl AG, Brackwede
Kugelblitz: Radio, Patebt Verwertungs Gesellschaft, Salzburg
Kuhglocke: Electrostatic, Rheinmetall-Borsig
Lotte: IR
Marabu: Radio, Siemens-Halske
Marder: Radio, Ernst Orlich Institute, Danzig
Meise: Acoustic, Neumann & Borm, Berlin
Pinscher: Radio, Ernst Orlich Institute, Danzig
Pistole: Photo-Electric
Roulette: IR, Brinckmann, Gera
Stimmgabel: Acoustic, Graf Zeppelin Institute
Trichter: Radio, Blaupunkt
Wassermaus: Photo-Electric
Wiesel: Radio, Ernst Orlich Institute, Danzig
Zunder-19: Aerial bomb prox. fuse for burst height of 25-30 ft above
ground, Rheinmetall-Borsig

At least some of these were on U-234...
>
> > The boat also carried several Messerschmitt engineers with documents
>
> For several read two, August Bringewalde, Willi Messerschmitt's "right-hand
> man"
> who was in charge of ME 262 production, and Franz Ruf, an industrial
> machinery
> specialist who designed machines and appliances to manufacture aircraft
> components.

What about Dr. Schauerns and Dr. von Chiligensberg also?
>
> > on the latest jet aircraft... but no complete aircraft, just
> > components in storage containers.
> >
>
> correct
>
> Keith

Rob

[robert arndt]

Upon further reading on U-234 I discovered that the proximity fuses
onboard were of the IR type.

Rob

[The Enlightenment]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Lawrence Dillard" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > "vzlion" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> >
> > SNIP
> >
> >
> > > To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
> > > fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron and miniaturized electronics
> > > necessary.IRC correctly the best they could manage was the "Kranich"
> > > acoustic proximity fuze.
> >
> > By the time the shipment had been readied, the German had in their
> > possession possibly several dozen "dud" Allied proximity fuses, recovered
> > from the battlefield. Gen Eisenhower had authorized the use of these
> devices
> > over land at the onset of the Ardennes Offensive. German authorities
> offered
> > soldiers a bounty for the recovery of partial or complete "duds". Their
> > analysis revealed the super-tough tubes employed therein.
> >
>
> More alarming was the capture of an ammunition dump that included
> stock of intact unfired shells. The allies didnt know if the Germans had
> seized any and so launched a crash investigation to see if jamming the
> fuze was possible
>
> > However, no Allied proximity fuse developed duringWWII used the resonant
> > cavity magnetron. Research and development on the miniaturization of such
> > devices had not begun by the end of the conflict in Europe. Instead, a
> radio
> > signal on a lower frequency was used.
> >
>
> The frequency used was 180 to 220 MHz according to
> http://www.smecc.org/radio_proximity_fuzes.htm
>
> Keith


At least for aerial proximity fuses the allies had already developed
jamming methods for their own fuses during developement of their own
fuses in the event that the Germans began using these type of fuses
against the Allied bomber fleets.

The fuses were triggered by a combination of doppler shift and the
intensity of the reflected wave.

Jamming involved a motor driven tuner shifting through the frequencies
used by the shells to spoof a doppler shift.

"Super tough" valves weren't the real secret to the proximity fuse.
PWB printed wireing boards were in part. The real secret seems to
have been packing the electronics into waxes and oil.

[David Lesher]

"Keith Willshaw" > writes:


>To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
>fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron and miniaturized electronics
>necessary.IRC correctly the best they could manage was the "Kranich"
>acoustic proximity fuze.


Err.. my memory is the two were quite separate. ISTM the proximity
fuses were in the 150 mhz range, NOT microwave at all.


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[Keith Willshaw]

"David Lesher" > wrote in message
...
> "Keith Willshaw" > writes:
>
>
> >To my knowledge the Germans never developed a true proximity
> >fise as they lacked the cavity magnetron and miniaturized electronics
> >necessary.IRC correctly the best they could manage was the "Kranich"
> >acoustic proximity fuze.
>
>
> Err.. my memory is the two were quite separate. ISTM the proximity
> fuses were in the 150 mhz range, NOT microwave at all.
>

Yes I've already been corrected in that regard, thanks anyway.

Keith