Lost Comm route?

[[email protected]]

I think this is a well worn question, but my digging isn't getting an
answer for my specific scenario(s).
Aircraft does NOT have a WAAS GPS. It could have an older IFR
certified (just not Sole Navigation) GPS.

1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
I lose radios. What route do I fly?

2. File Direct to my destination that's 200 miles away. I get that for
my clearance. I depart. I lose radios. Same question.

91.185 says,
" (a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has
two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall
comply with the rules of this section. (b) VFR conditions. If the
failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered
after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and
land as soon as practicable.
(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if
paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied
with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the
following:
(1) Route.
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the
point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the
vector clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that
ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC
has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed
in the flight plan.
(2) Altitude.............."


(c)(1)(i) makes it sound like I just keep mowing on to my 200 mile
away destination. If I have no GPS *at all*, I'm pretty much dead-
reckoning my way to get close enough to the closest VOR at my
destination. A handheld would make that more accurate.

If that's not correct, then under scenario #2, (c)(1)(iv) wouldn't
help, since my "filed" route was a big 200 mile Direct.

With radios, if radar goes down, ATC should scoot me over onto
airways, or leapfrog VORs within 80 (or 65 or 50) miles of each other.
I have had that happen to me. Lost of radios, doesn't necessarily mean
loss of radar, but it does mean I cannot *hear* anymore correcting
vectors.

Thanks for filling me with knowledge....! :-)

[tscottme]

Go direct, that was last ATC clearance. Navigate by GPS, dead reackoning,
or ham sandwich.

--

Scott

Arab culture is so dysfunctional that Islam was an improvement.
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I think this is a well worn question, but my digging isn't getting an
> answer for my specific scenario(s).
> Aircraft does NOT have a WAAS GPS. It could have an older IFR
> certified (just not Sole Navigation) GPS.
>
> 1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
> departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
> I lose radios. What route do I fly?
>
> 2. File Direct to my destination that's 200 miles away. I get that for
> my clearance. I depart. I lose radios. Same question.
>
> 91.185 says,
> " (a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has
> two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall
> comply with the rules of this section. (b) VFR conditions. If the
> failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered
> after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and
> land as soon as practicable.
> (c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if
> paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied
> with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the
> following:
> (1) Route.
> (i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
> (ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the
> point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the
> vector clearance;
> (iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that
> ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
> (iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC
> has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed
> in the flight plan.
> (2) Altitude.............."
>
>
> (c)(1)(i) makes it sound like I just keep mowing on to my 200 mile
> away destination. If I have no GPS *at all*, I'm pretty much dead-
> reckoning my way to get close enough to the closest VOR at my
> destination. A handheld would make that more accurate.
>
> If that's not correct, then under scenario #2, (c)(1)(iv) wouldn't
> help, since my "filed" route was a big 200 mile Direct.
>
> With radios, if radar goes down, ATC should scoot me over onto
> airways, or leapfrog VORs within 80 (or 65 or 50) miles of each other.
> I have had that happen to me. Lost of radios, doesn't necessarily mean
> loss of radar, but it does mean I cannot *hear* anymore correcting
> vectors.
>
> Thanks for filling me with knowledge....! :-)
>

[Jose]

> 1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
> departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
> I lose radios. What route do I fly?

Let me modify the question a bit. You have a VOR/DME airplane. No GPS.
You file airways (they have zigzags and some hills) and get cleared as
filed. You take off, and lose comm and nav. You're in the soup.

What do you fly? (You do have an NDB that works)

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:05:08 -0400, Jose >
wrote:

>> 1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
>> departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
>> I lose radios. What route do I fly?
>
>Let me modify the question a bit. You have a VOR/DME airplane. No GPS.
> You file airways (they have zigzags and some hills) and get cleared as
>filed. You take off, and lose comm and nav. You're in the soup.
>
>What do you fly? (You do have an NDB that works)
>
>Jose

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > 1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
> > departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
> > I lose radios. What route do I fly?
>
> Let me modify the question a bit. You have a VOR/DME airplane. No GPS.
> You file airways (they have zigzags and some hills) and get cleared as
> filed. You take off, and lose comm and nav. You're in the soup.
>
> What do you fly? (You do have an NDB that works)

It sounds like you no longer have the means to navigate any of the routes
(cleared, expected, filed) described in 91.185. And don't have a handheld
GPS. And you don't have a handheld comm radio. And you don't have a cell
phone. Therefore, you fall back on on 91.3.

Your first goal is to avoid hitting any terrain. If you're not sure you're
above all terrain, climb. How high? High enough to ensure terrain
clearance. Nothing else matters until you've got that covered.

While you're climbing, write down the time. You're going to need that
compute your DR plot.

Next, where are you going to go? Hopefully, you've got some idea where VFR
weather can be found. Fly in that direction. If there's a good high-power
NDB station you can use, navigate to that. If not, then an AM radio
station will work fine (if it turns out to be Country & Western, turn the
volume down low enough that you can't hear it). If not, just fly a
heading. Keep flying until you can see the ground. Find an airport.
Land. Done.

[Jose]

> It sounds like you no longer have the means to navigate any of the routes
> (cleared, expected, filed) described in 91.185.

Exactly. In my scenario, you've lost nav too, except for NDB. So use
that. You use what you have to avoid becoming a newspaper article.

Back to the original scenario, you still have a handheld GPS. So you
can still fly your (direct) clearance.

> (c)(1)(i) makes it sound like I just keep mowing on to my 200 mile
> away destination. If I have no GPS *at all*, I'm pretty much dead-
> reckoning my way to get close enough to the closest VOR at my
> destination. A handheld would make that more accurate.

IF you have no GPS you can't navigate direct (except under certain
circumstances). IF you have VOR, use that to stay alive. If you are
down to dead reckoning, your original clearance is no longer important.
Fly whatever you can to get yourself somewhere you can land safely,
without regard to 91.185.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

And fly a VFR altitude...

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:42:06 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> Jose > wrote:
>
>> > 1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
>> > departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
>> > I lose radios. What route do I fly?
>>
>> Let me modify the question a bit. You have a VOR/DME airplane. No GPS.
>> You file airways (they have zigzags and some hills) and get cleared as
>> filed. You take off, and lose comm and nav. You're in the soup.
>>
>> What do you fly? (You do have an NDB that works)
>
>It sounds like you no longer have the means to navigate any of the routes
>(cleared, expected, filed) described in 91.185. And don't have a handheld
>GPS. And you don't have a handheld comm radio. And you don't have a cell
>phone. Therefore, you fall back on on 91.3.
>
>Your first goal is to avoid hitting any terrain. If you're not sure you're
>above all terrain, climb. How high? High enough to ensure terrain
>clearance. Nothing else matters until you've got that covered.
>
>While you're climbing, write down the time. You're going to need that
>compute your DR plot.
>
>Next, where are you going to go? Hopefully, you've got some idea where VFR
>weather can be found. Fly in that direction. If there's a good high-power
>NDB station you can use, navigate to that. If not, then an AM radio
>station will work fine (if it turns out to be Country & Western, turn the
>volume down low enough that you can't hear it). If not, just fly a
>heading. Keep flying until you can see the ground. Find an airport.
>Land. Done.

[Dave Butler]

wrote:
> And fly a VFR altitude...

Why would you do that?

>
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:42:06 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Jose > wrote:
>>
>>>> 1. File Airways/VORs (within 40/25 mile service radius). Upon
>>>> departure, request & get Direct my destination that's 200 miles away.
>>>> I lose radios. What route do I fly?
>>> Let me modify the question a bit. You have a VOR/DME airplane. No GPS.
>>> You file airways (they have zigzags and some hills) and get cleared as
>>> filed. You take off, and lose comm and nav. You're in the soup.
>>>
>>> What do you fly? (You do have an NDB that works)
>> It sounds like you no longer have the means to navigate any of the routes
>> (cleared, expected, filed) described in 91.185. And don't have a handheld
>> GPS. And you don't have a handheld comm radio. And you don't have a cell
>> phone. Therefore, you fall back on on 91.3.
>>
>> Your first goal is to avoid hitting any terrain. If you're not sure you're
>> above all terrain, climb. How high? High enough to ensure terrain
>> clearance. Nothing else matters until you've got that covered.
>>
>> While you're climbing, write down the time. You're going to need that
>> compute your DR plot.
>>
>> Next, where are you going to go? Hopefully, you've got some idea where VFR
>> weather can be found. Fly in that direction. If there's a good high-power
>> NDB station you can use, navigate to that. If not, then an AM radio
>> station will work fine (if it turns out to be Country & Western, turn the
>> volume down low enough that you can't hear it). If not, just fly a
>> heading. Keep flying until you can see the ground. Find an airport.
>> Land. Done.

[Roy Smith]

wrote:
>> And fly a VFR altitude...

Dave Butler > wrote:
> Why would you do that?

If you believe your xponder is still active, so ATC can track your position
and altitude, staying at an IFR altitude probably makes sense.

On the other hand, if you've had a total electrical failure and you don't
think you're transponding any more, going to a VFR altitude might give you
a better chance of not hitting any other airplanes. The theory is that in
IMC, everybody else will be at an IFR altitude. If you're the only one at
a VFR altitude, you can't hit any of them.

At least that's the theory, The answer to whether you decide to go with
that theory can only be found in 91.3.