B29 - "Necessary Evil"

[Matt Tauber]

George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt was the pilot of "Necessary Evil",
the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.

Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still exists...or other planes from the
509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
in storage where no one can be offended by it. How about the other 12
planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective". Any thoughts?

Matt Tauber

[PosterBoy]

"Matt Tauber" > wrote in message
...
> George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt was the pilot of "Necessary
Evil",
> the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.
>
> Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still exists...or other planes from
the
> 509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is
safely
> in storage where no one can be offended by it. How about the other 12
> planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective". Any thoughts?
>
> Matt Tauber

"Some Punkins," one of the Silverplates, suffered extensive damage in an
accident back in the 'States, and was later transferred to the
428th Air Base Unit at Kirtland AFB in early 1946. Declared surplus, she
was subsequently destroyed in a fire-fighting demonstration.

Cheers.

[Stephen D. Poe]

Matt Tauber wrote:
>
> George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt was the pilot of "Necessary Evil",
> the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.
>
> Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still exists...or other planes from the
> 509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
> in storage where no one can be offended by it. How about the other 12
> planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective". Any thoughts?
>
> Matt Tauber

Matt -

The restored forward fuselage and other parts of the Enola Gay were
exhibited publicly downtown on the Washington, D. C., Mall in May 1995.
See http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/boeing_b29.htm

The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum has completed restoration work on the
entire plane to restore it to its original wartime condition. It will be
publicly displayed at the new Udvar-Hazy Center starting December 15th.
See http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/pa/nasmnews/pr/081803.htm for more
details.

See http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/ for background on the 1994-1995
controversy.

Stephen

[Mark and Kim Smith]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030818/ap_on_re_us/enola_gay_1

"Stephen D. Poe" wrote:

> Matt Tauber wrote:
> >
> > George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt was the pilot of "Necessary Evil",
> > the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.
> >
> > Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still exists...or other planes from the
> > 509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
> > in storage where no one can be offended by it. How about the other 12
> > planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective". Any thoughts?
> >
> > Matt Tauber
>
> Matt -
>
> The restored forward fuselage and other parts of the Enola Gay were
> exhibited publicly downtown on the Washington, D. C., Mall in May 1995.
> See http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/boeing_b29.htm
>
> The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum has completed restoration work on the
> entire plane to restore it to its original wartime condition. It will be
> publicly displayed at the new Udvar-Hazy Center starting December 15th.
> See http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/pa/nasmnews/pr/081803.htm for more
> details.
>
> See http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/ for background on the 1994-1995
> controversy.
>
> Stephen

[Cub Driver]

>I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
>in storage where no one can be offended by it.

Actually, Enola Gay has been completely restored and shown to the
press just last week, and will go on public display at Dulles in
December when the Unspellable Name Annex of NASM is opened to the
public.

How about the other 12
>planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective"

Almost certainly scrapped more than 50 years ago.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> "Great Artiste" (reportedly having served some time in SaR) was restored
>and displayed at Pease AFB, and moved to Whiteman AFB when the New Hampshire
>base closed.

Good grief. I didn't know I'd lived next door to the Great Artiste for
all those years. I do remember seeing a B-29 "on the hard" near the
main gate, but never paid any attention to it.

Pease International Tradeport is still very much with us, though
quieter now than in the days when it was home to the B-52s. I haven't
landed there myself, but I often have occasion to talk to the tower,
which is still wont to tell people: "Check gear down and locked."

The New Hampshire Air Guard is based there with six or eight KC-135s.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Aerophotos]

The spare B-29 "Top Secret" was meant to be the replacement for Enola
Gay for the 6th August... if she had broken down in flight.. and RTB...

Does anyone know what happened to Top Secret's bombload? on the Aug 6th
mission???

so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..

Matt Tauber wrote:
>
> George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt was the pilot of "Necessary Evil",
> the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.
>
> Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still exists...or other planes from the
> 509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
> in storage where no one can be offended by it. How about the other 12
> planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective". Any thoughts?
>
> Matt Tauber

--

[Dave Kearton]

--
"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
| The spare B-29 "Top Secret" was meant to be the replacement for Enola
| Gay for the 6th August... if she had broken down in flight.. and RTB...
|
| Does anyone know what happened to Top Secret's bombload? on the Aug 6th
| mission???
|
| so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
| effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..
|



The enroute divert airfield was on Iwo Jima, the weapon would be swapped
out there. From what I read, Paul Tibbets (sp?) would probably
displace the other pilot as well.




Dave Kearton

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt Tauber" > wrote in message
...
>
> George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt was the pilot of "Necessary
> Evil", the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.
>
> Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still exists...or other planes from
> the 509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB museum, and "Enola Gay" is
> safely in storage where no one can be offended by it. How about the other
> 12 planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective". Any thoughts?
>

"Necessary Evil", 44-86291, went to China Lake in 1956 and was eventually
scrapped.

"Strange Cargo", 44-27300, was scrapped in 1957.

"Next Objective, 44-27299, was scrapped in 1949.

I believe "Enola Gay" and "Bockscar" are the only remaining Silverplate
B-29s, all others having been scrapped outright by 1960 or reduced to
gunnery range targets.

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Aerophotos > writes:

> The spare B-29 "Top Secret" was meant to be the replacement for Enola
> Gay for the 6th August... if she had broken down in flight.. and RTB...
>
> Does anyone know what happened to Top Secret's bombload? on the Aug 6th
> mission???
>
> so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
> effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..

Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But my question is, was
Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing mission that eventually
devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one report on the internet. I
always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to the efforts of a certain US
diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in Kyoto.... maybe a myth.

From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima was the primary target due
to the concentration of military installations and command
centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the naval base
installations. I don't know how true the allegations are that a city
with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima) vs one with mostly
traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen. Please correct my mistaken
impressions!

As far as a further mission is concerned, I thought that in the event
of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo was to be targetted. How far
did plans for a third mission go, I did not find out even if there was
enough fissionable material on hand to make another bomb immediately,
or whether that would have taken further weeks or perhaps months.

Any useful references would be appreciated, Google was not exactly
conclusive and this is not my subject, hence I am not able to judge
the quality of the references easily.

Many thanks,
Gernot
--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

[Dave Kearton]

"Gernot Hassenpflug" > wrote in message
Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But my question is, was
| Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing mission that eventually
| devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one report on the internet. I
| always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to the efforts of a certain US
| diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in Kyoto.... maybe a myth.
|
| From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima was the primary target due
| to the concentration of military installations and command
| centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the naval base
| installations. I don't know how true the allegations are that a city
| with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima) vs one with mostly
| traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen. Please correct my mistaken
| impressions!
|
| As far as a further mission is concerned, I thought that in the event
| of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo was to be targetted. How far
| did plans for a third mission go, I did not find out even if there was
| enough fissionable material on hand to make another bomb immediately,
| or whether that would have taken further weeks or perhaps months.
|
| Any useful references would be appreciated, Google was not exactly
| conclusive and this is not my subject, hence I am not able to judge
| the quality of the references easily.
|
| Many thanks,
| Gernot
| --
| G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan


According to "Ruin from the air" Sphere books Ltd


Kyoto was favoured by General Groves as a target because it was a big city
that "must have been involved with war work"

Groves had it placed on the reserved target list for this reason.
Given that Kyoto was the ancient capital of Japan, prior to Tokyo, it was
an important cultural city, whose destruction may not have the effect on
Japanese morale that was desired.

After the war, Leslie Groves claimed he had put Kyoto on the target list ,
to protect it against conventional bombing.




Works for me....




Cheers

Dave Kearton

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Cub Driver > writes:
>
>> "Great Artiste" (reportedly having served some time in SaR) was restored
>>and displayed at Pease AFB, and moved to Whiteman AFB when the New Hampshire
>>base closed.
>
> Good grief. I didn't know I'd lived next door to the Great Artiste for
> all those years. I do remember seeing a B-29 "on the hard" near the
> main gate, but never paid any attention to it.

I don't know for certain that the airframe was truly that of "Great
Artiste". The base shops sure did a good job on her, though.

They had a pretty good little display there, at one point - The B-29,
a KC-97, a B-52D, and, the piece de resistance, what had been the last
flying B-47. (Which flew in in '77 or '78, with Navy markings, and a
crew from North American Autonetics.) The only types missing that the
509th BW had flown were a B-50 (Just not too many of them), and a
KB-29 (Ditto). I'm glad that at least the rare stuff got moved to
Whiteman. We'll just say that they went out there for the good weather.

>
> Pease International Tradeport is still very much with us, though
> quieter now than in the days when it was home to the B-52s. I haven't
> landed there myself, but I often have occasion to talk to the tower,
> which is still wont to tell people: "Check gear down and locked."

And, of course, for your J-3, you could land across that runway if you
had to.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Guy Alcala]

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

> Aerophotos > writes:

<snip>

> > so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
> > effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..
>
> Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But my question is, was
> Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing mission that eventually
> devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one report on the internet.

No, Kokura was the primary, they diverted to Nagasaki from Kokura, when the
latter was found to be covered with cloud (the order was to make a visual
drop).

> I
> always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to the efforts of a certain US
> diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in Kyoto.... maybe a myth.

Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson removed Kyoto from the target list, because
he considered it a cultural city of no military signficance, and bombing it
would be considered an act of barbarism. He'd visited it previously.
Nagasaki replaced it on the list.

> From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima was the primary target due
> to the concentration of military installations and command
> centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the naval base
> installations.

Sort of. For the August 6th mission, weather recon a/c were dispatched to
Hiroshima, Kokura, and Nagasaki. The weather was good over Hiroshima,
allowing it to be bombed.

> I don't know how true the allegations are that a city
> with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima) vs one with mostly
> traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen. Please correct my mistaken
> impressions!

There was a list of four target cities: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki, and
Niigata, in order of precedence. Target weather saved Kokura and doomed
Nagasaki on August 9th.

> As far as a further mission is concerned, I thought that in the event
> of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo was to be targetted. How far
> did plans for a third mission go, I did not find out even if there was
> enough fissionable material on hand to make another bomb immediately,
> or whether that would have taken further weeks or perhaps months.

According to Richard B. Frank in "Downfall," Marshall and Groves had delayed
transport of components for a third bomb because they figured that two would
probably do the job. This meant that the next one couldn't be dropped before
about August 21st.

"General Farrell and Captain Parsons had met with General Twining, Admiral
Nimitz, and General Spaatz, and by the afternoon of August 9th they urged
Washington to review target lists since the 'effects at Trinity and Hiroshima
.. . . [had] far exceeded optimistic expectations.' They 'expressly
recommended' that the next bomb be dropped in the 'region of Tokyo' to
achieve maximum psychological effect. On August 14, Twining submitted a new
list of six targets in order of priority: Sapporo, Hakodate, Oyabu, Yokosuka,
Osaka, and Nagoya."

Later he writes that it was predicted that they'd have produced enough
material for about 7 bombs by October 31st. Marshall was considering holding
on to them and using them tactically for Olympic.

Guy

[Matt Wiser]

Aerophotos > wrote:
>The spare B-29 "Top Secret" was meant to be
>the replacement for Enola
>Gay for the 6th August... if she had broken
>down in flight.. and RTB...
>
>Does anyone know what happened to Top Secret's
>bombload? on the Aug 6th
>mission???
>
>so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain...
>so the USAAF could of
>effectively bombed another target.. but chose
>not to..
>
>Matt Tauber wrote:
>>
>> George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt
>was the pilot of "Necessary Evil",
>> the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.
>>
>> Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still
>exists...or other planes from the
>> 509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB
>museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
>> in storage where no one can be offended by
>it. How about the other 12
>> planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective".
> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Matt Tauber
>
>--
Top Secret was the spare waiting at Iwo Jima in case of a problem with
Enola Gay en route-they would
have landed at Iwo and transferred the bomb to Top Secret and pressed on
with the mission. Only two bombs were at Tinian-No.3 (a Fat Man type) wasn't
to be shipped until Aug. 11th. from Los Alamos.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Cub Driver]

>| so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
>| effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..

No, there were only the two. The "third bomb" was still in the United
States. Supposedly it was being loaded for transshipment to Tinian
(the primary target evidently Kokura) when it was stopped by direct
order of President Truman. See www.danford.net/third.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Matt Wiser]

"Dave Kearton" > wrote:
>
>"Gernot Hassenpflug" >
>wrote in message
> Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But
>my question is, was
>| Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing
>mission that eventually
>| devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one
>report on the internet. I
>| always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to
>the efforts of a certain US
>| diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in
>Kyoto.... maybe a myth.
>|
>| From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima
>was the primary target due
>| to the concentration of military installations
>and command
>| centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the
>naval base
>| installations. I don't know how true the allegations
>are that a city
>| with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima)
>vs one with mostly
>| traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen.
>Please correct my mistaken
>| impressions!
>|
>| As far as a further mission is concerned,
>I thought that in the event
>| of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo
>was to be targetted. How far
>| did plans for a third mission go, I did not
>find out even if there was
>| enough fissionable material on hand to make
>another bomb immediately,
>| or whether that would have taken further weeks
>or perhaps months.
>|
>| Any useful references would be appreciated,
>Google was not exactly
>| conclusive and this is not my subject, hence
>I am not able to judge
>| the quality of the references easily.
>|
>| Many thanks,
>| Gernot
>| --
>| G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history
>fan
>
>
>According to "Ruin from the air" Sphere books
>Ltd
>
>
>Kyoto was favoured by General Groves as a target
>because it was a big city
>that "must have been involved with war work"
>
>Groves had it placed on the reserved target
>list for this reason.
>Given that Kyoto was the ancient capital of
>Japan, prior to Tokyo, it was
>an important cultural city, whose destruction
>may not have the effect on
>Japanese morale that was desired.
>
>After the war, Leslie Groves claimed he had
>put Kyoto on the target list ,
>to protect it against conventional bombing.
>
>
>
>
>Works for me....
>
>
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Dave Kearton
>
>
>
>
>
These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
Niigata. Additional targets were to be selected later if more than four bombs
needed to be dropped.
Tokyo was practically worthless as an atomic target by this time.
Regarding Kyoto: Groves wanted to hit Kyoto, but Secretary of War Stimson
overruled him on this and had it taken off the list, and Truman agreed. Groves
wanted to reinstate Kyoto if more bombs were necessary after the first four.


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Cub Driver]

> These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
>was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
>Niigata

Matt, what is your source for this?

To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing to do with
targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged that Tokyo be bombed.)

I've never heard of Niigata, either as city or as target. It's very
small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that made it of interest?

Kokura as I recall had one of the last oil refineries still
functioning in Japan, and I think it was bombed in the
"thousand-plane" raid of Aug 14/15, with the last bombs falling after
midnight local time, when Japan had dispatched its surrender message
to Switzerland.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[John]

George W. Marquardt, an Army Air Forces pilot who took part in the
World War II atomic bomb raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, died Aug. 15
at a nursing-care center in Murray, Utah. He was 84.
On the morning of Aug. 6, 1945, Marquardt, an Army major, flew a B-29
Superfortress carrying photographic equipment over Hiroshima.
His bomber -- designated No. 91 but later called Necessary Evil by its
crew --

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6603618.htm

[Nick Pedley]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> > These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
> >was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura,
Nagasaki,
> >Niigata
>
> Matt, what is your source for this?
>
> To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing to do with
> targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged that Tokyo be bombed.)
>
> I've never heard of Niigata, either as city or as target. It's very
> small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that made it of interest?
>
From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true
extent of any damage to demonstrate the power of the atom bomb.
Also, Niigata was/is a large port on the Sea of Japan with a tanker
terminal, an oil refinery, and iron works, all of which were still working.
It got ruled out because it was too far away during the raid.

http://www.dannen.com/decision/targets.html#D

HTH,
Nick

[Cub Driver]

>From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
>relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true

I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[sddso]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > "Great Artiste" (reportedly having served some time in SaR) was restored
> >and displayed at Pease AFB, and moved to Whiteman AFB when the New Hampshire
> >base closed.
>
> Good grief. I didn't know I'd lived next door to the Great Artiste for
> all those years. I do remember seeing a B-29 "on the hard" near the
> main gate, but never paid any attention to it.
>
> Pease International Tradeport is still very much with us, though
> quieter now than in the days when it was home to the B-52s. I haven't
> landed there myself, but I often have occasion to talk to the tower,
> which is still wont to tell people: "Check gear down and locked."
>
> The New Hampshire Air Guard is based there with six or eight KC-135s.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Pease was hosting one of the FB-111 wings (379 BMW or whichever) about
the time it was inactivated. Were they noisier than B-52s?

Not sure which came first: the FB-111 retirement, or Pease's
inactivation.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"PosterBoy" > wrote in message
. ca...
>
> "Great Artiste" (reportedly having served some time in SaR) was restored
> and displayed at Pease AFB, and moved to Whiteman AFB when the New
> Hampshire base closed.
>

"Great Artiste", 44-27353, was scrapped at Goose AFB, Labrador, on September
27, 1949. The airplane displayed at Pease and Whiteman in "Great Artiste"
markings was B-29A 44-61671.


>
> "Straight Flush" became a UFOlogists' delight, purportedly have flown a
> crate of dead Roswell crash alien bodies to Fort Worth. Dunno what became
> of the SF.
>

"Straight Flush", 44-27301, was scrapped in 1957.


>
> "Jabit III" was damaged in an accident while landing at O'Hare in late
> September, '45.
>

"Jabit III", 44-27303, was scrapped in 1946.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Good grief. I didn't know I'd lived next door to the Great Artiste for
> all those years. I do remember seeing a B-29 "on the hard" near the
> main gate, but never paid any attention to it.
>

You didn't live next door to it. The "Great Artiste", B-29-40-MO 44-27353,
was scrapped at Goose AFB, Labrador, on September 27, 1949. The airplane
displayed at Pease AFB in "Great Artiste" markings was B-29A-40-BN 44-61671.

[Matt Wiser]

Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>> These were the targets as per the order given
>to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
>>was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific:
>Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
>>Niigata
>
>Matt, what is your source for this?
>
>To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing
>to do with
>targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged
>that Tokyo be bombed.)
>
>I've never heard of Niigata, either as city
>or as target. It's very
>small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that
>made it of interest?
>
>Kokura as I recall had one of the last oil refineries
>still
>functioning in Japan, and I think it was bombed
>in the
>"thousand-plane" raid of Aug 14/15, with the
>last bombs falling after
>midnight local time, when Japan had dispatched
>its surrender message
>to Switzerland.
>
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
Day One by Peter Wyden. It quotes the message to Spaatz from Hap Arnold
giving the targets. It also noted that "further instructions will be issued
concerning targets in addition to those above." The order came from Hap Arnold
as Groves wasn't in the AAF chain of command. Niigata was listed as a target
because it simply hadn't been hit yet. Kokura BTW had Japan's largest chemical
weapons production facility (among other industry). It would have been hit
likely on the 16th or later if Fat Man no. 2 had been shipped. Tibbets had
vowed after Sweeney's mission that if a third strike was needed, he would
lead it.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"sddso" > wrote in message ...
>
> Pease was hosting one of the FB-111 wings (379 BMW or whichever) about
> the time it was inactivated.
>

The 509th BW operated the FB-111A at Pease AFB.


>
> Not sure which came first: the FB-111 retirement, or Pease's
> inactivation.
>

The 509th BW moved from Pease to Whiteman on September 30, 1990, without
people or equipment. I presume their aircraft left sometime before that.
Pease AFB closed on March 31, 1991, SAC continued to operate the FB-111A at
Plattsburgh AFB until July 10, 1991.

[Nick Pedley]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
> >relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true
>
> I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!
>
Good point, but the actual source is noted at the top of the page. I'm sure
it could be checked and verified.

Nick

[Guy Alcala]

Cub Driver wrote:

> >From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
> >relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true
>
> I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!

"Downfall," by Richard B. Frank, or "War’s End: An Eyewitness Account of
America’s Last Atomic Mission" by Maj Gen Charles W. Sweeney, USAF, Retired
(He flew the Great Artiste on the Hiroshima mission, as well as Bock's Car
against Kokura => Nagasaki), has details. One of the two, I forget which,
says that Niigata was always considered the least favorite target of the four,
as it was considerably further away from the Marianas than the others. The
cities were set aside from firebomb attacks so that damage would be easy to
assess afterwards, both from the air and later, on the ground.

Guy

[Cub Driver]

>Not sure which came first: the FB-111 retirement, or Pease's
>inactivation.

I think the 111s went away, and there was only a tanker wing here.
Then they spent a quiet summer repaving the runway; the KC-135s were
moved to New York state. Then they came back. Then they deactivated.
Of course the tankers became National Guard, so the change wasn't
total.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

Okay, what was the url again?

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:41:22 +0100, "Nick Pedley"
> wrote:

>
>"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> >From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
>> >relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true
>>
>> I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!
>>
>Good point, but the actual source is noted at the top of the page. I'm sure
>it could be checked and verified.
>
>Nick
>

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Cub Driver > writes:
>
>>Pease was hosting one of the FB-111 wings (379 BMW or whichever) about
>>the time it was inactivated. Were they noisier than B-52s?
>
> No, they were grounded most of the time.
>
> Also they seemed to fly as individuals, not mass formations. And they
> weren't memorably noisy.

Well, other than the one that went into Seacrest Villiage, in '79 or '80.
But no, they weren't that bad.
Like all of SAC, it was all either sitting alert or proficiency
flying. I think they did occasionally deploy 1 or 2 aircraft to
dispersal fields, just to be sure that they;d have everything ready
Just in Case.

> When those ole 52s took off, I was living NW of Pease on the runway
> centerline, on a point of land. (From the air, this area looks like an
> archipelago.) Of course the point was granite, or else it would have
> been wiped off by the glaciers. The sound of the 52s would begin in
> the cellar, move up to the living quarters, and only after a
> considerable time (or so it seemed) did the noise elevate to the sky
> where it belonged. If there was a party going on, everyone just
> stopped with mouths open and glassy-eyed and waited the five minutes
> (whatever) before the possibility of hearing began again.

The C-124s that the NH ANG were flying were rather impressive on the
noise front as well. A different timbre to it, so it didn't seem as
opressive, but loud nontheless,

> The KC-135s are actually noisier than I remember the 111s to be. This
> was however a relatively quiet summer. Perhaps some of them are
> forward-based somewhere?

Back in the day of the Steam Jets (Water-injected A models with
straight J-67s) you could hear the morning trim runs in downtown
Durham. (Student Daze, mid '70s) They gave a new definition of loud.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:55:38 -0400, (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

>Well, other than the one that went into Seacrest Villiage, in '79 or '80.

I didn't know about that!

The Pease F-111s were grounded whenever a 111 anywhere in the world
came to grief, as I recall. That seemed to happen a lot.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com