Cutting off shirt tails

[Wally Samuelson]

Does anyone have a clue where the tradition of cutting off the shirt tail of
a newly soloed student began? I believe it has its roots in the military in
WW1.

While we are on the subject of tails, I recall that newly graduated 2nd Lts
were called shave tails. Any suggestions on where this term originated?

Wally

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Wally
Samuelson > writes
>Does anyone have a clue where the tradition of cutting off the shirt tail of
>a newly soloed student began? I believe it has its roots in the military in
>WW1.

It was my tie when I soloed. It was then pinned to the notice board.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Ed Rasimus]

"M. J. Powell" > wrote:

>In message >, Wally
>Samuelson > writes
>>Does anyone have a clue where the tradition of cutting off the shirt tail of
>>a newly soloed student began? I believe it has its roots in the military in
>>WW1.
>
>It was my tie when I soloed. It was then pinned to the notice board.
>
>Mike

Solo traditions have varied over time. I've heard of the shirt-tail
clipping, but never seen it done. Clearly the tie cutting is from a
generation long gone, since you can go for a long time without seeing
a tie on a soloing student pilot these days.

When I soloed in a J-3 Cub (Palwaukee Airport, Wheeling IL, 12 May
1962), I got a handshake from my CFI, but no cuttings.

When I soloed in a T-37--first USAF solo--8 Sep 1964, Williams AFB
AZ), I had to buy my IP (Capt. Homer Lee) a bottle of booze. That was
the tradition. No cuttings.

Later when I was IPing myself at Willy, the tradition of a solo
dunking came into being. A cattle tank (about eight feet in diameter
and about two feet deep) was kept behind the flying squadron building.
Each class of students would paint it in class colors. When a student
solo'd, the would be dunked by their classmates. No cuttings there
either. Of course, there weren't any ties nor shirt tails on a K-2B
flying suit.

When students progressed to the T-38 and began wearing a G-suit, there
was the ripping off of the "Gooney Bird survival kit"--the pocket on
the left inside thigh of the flying suit which carried the orange hook
blade knife used to cut parachute lanyards on ejection. The G-suit had
a knife pocket and covered the one on the flying suit leg making it
extraneous. Wise pilots always removed the pocket themselves whenever
they got a new flying suit.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[Gregg Germain]

AFROTC, 1976, soloed in the AF Pre-UPI private pilot's training
course. Shirt tail got cut off.


Just a thought as to origins:

there is a fairly old phrase that I know was in use in the 1920's and
the phrase was" "shirtailed kid". Meaning young, wet behind the ears
etc.

So perhaps losing the shirtail was a way of saying you've graduated
from "kid" to "adult".


--- Gregg
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

[Phineas Pinkham]

"Wally Samuelson" <wrote in message> Does anyone have a clue where the
tradition of cutting off the shirt tail of
> a newly soloed student began? I believe it has its roots in the military
in
> WW1.

In WWII, we wore our goggles around our neck until we soloed, after that we
could wear them on out helmets in the proper position. It was also the
tradition to throw the soloist in the nearest body of water, either thepool,
lake ,gulf or ocean!

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> Solo traditions have varied over time. I've heard of the shirt-tail
> clipping, but never seen it done. Clearly the tie cutting is from a
> generation long gone, since you can go for a long time without seeing
> a tie on a soloing student pilot these days.


If they were waiting for me to wear a tie, I'd never have soloed. As it was, I
was told I wouldn't solo until I wore a nice (read "expensive") shirt. I
managed to solo in spite of wearing a colored t-shirt that day. My shirt tail
was cut off and after a few days reappeared on the wall of the pilot's lounge.

It now sported a picture of a biplane with an upside down scuba diver sticking
out of the cockpit with the words: "I'd Rather Be Diving" on it. I've got it
around the house here somewhere. One of these years I'll get around to framing
it and hanging it in my office.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

[vincent p. norris]

>Clearly the tie cutting is from a
>generation long gone, since you can go for a long time without seeing
>a tie on a soloing student pilot these days.

Ed, I suspect he was talking about the military. My tie was amputated
when I soloed at Pensacola in 1950.

When I soloed a J-3 a few years earlier, it was at a small airport, I
was the only student, and there was no ceremony of any sort.

vince norris

[Cub Driver]

> there is a fairly old phrase that I know was in use in the 1920's and
>the phrase was" "shirtailed kid". Meaning young, wet behind the ears
>etc.

Because he didn't wear it tucked in. Sign of a farm boy.

Or: "with his shirttail hanging out...."

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, vincent p.
norris > writes
>>Clearly the tie cutting is from a
>>generation long gone, since you can go for a long time without seeing
>>a tie on a soloing student pilot these days.
>
>Ed, I suspect he was talking about the military. My tie was amputated
>when I soloed at Pensacola in 1950.
>
>When I soloed a J-3 a few years earlier, it was at a small airport, I
>was the only student, and there was no ceremony of any sort.

No, it was at a civilian flying club in Southend, UK.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Vee-One]

"Wally Samuelson" > wrote in message
t...
> Does anyone have a clue where the tradition of cutting off the shirt tail
of
> a newly soloed student began? I believe it has its roots in the military
in
> WW1.
>
> While we are on the subject of tails, I recall that newly graduated 2nd
Lts
> were called shave tails. Any suggestions on where this term originated?
>

This was related to me by my dad, a "ground-pounder" in the late 60's.

Shave-Tail refered to someone who was prior-enlisted and eventually recieved
a commision. Enlisted folks wore dress shirts without epaulets, officers
with (had to have someplace to attach the brass). The shirt-tail was cut
off, and the fabric used to create epaulets so an "E" transitioning to an
"O" didn't have to buy a whole new set of shirts.

Of course, in the current Air Force, all blue shirts have epaulets. Senior
NCO's have the option of wearing standard "stripes", or shoulder boards with
their rank.

MSgt (sel) Peter Vierps
116 AMXS

[Cub Driver]

>As a fly fisherman, I've seen many pics of gentlemen fishing the chalk
>steams of Merrie old England wearing suists, complete with white
>shirts, ties, and vests, not to mention bowlers.

And Ireland and Scotland.

At the prices one pays for the privilege of fishing those streams, you
could attend the opera, and one always dresses up a bit for the opera.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

I had dinner last night with a couple from Tierra del Fuego, the big
island to the south of Argentina (and part of it). They mentioned a
trout-fishing stream where an all-inclusive package ran $1,000 a day
(but not including airfare to Usushia!).

>>As a fly fisherman, I've seen many pics of gentlemen fishing the chalk
>>steams of Merrie old England wearing suists, complete with white
>>shirts, ties, and vests, not to mention bowlers.
>
>And Ireland and Scotland.
>
>At the prices one pays for the privilege of fishing those streams, you
>could attend the opera, and one always dresses up a bit for the opera.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Kevin Brooks]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> I had dinner last night with a couple from Tierra del Fuego, the big
> island to the south of Argentina (and part of it). They mentioned a
> trout-fishing stream where an all-inclusive package ran $1,000 a day
> (but not including airfare to Usushia!).

I had plans to go to Iceland after arctic char a couple of years
ago--but when told the daily fee for a section of stream was going to
run me $900 (that would allow up to four fishermen, or "rods", on that
section), I decided that Wyoming was a better destination for this
fly-fisherman-on-a-budget...

Brooks

>
> >>As a fly fisherman, I've seen many pics of gentlemen fishing the chalk
> >>steams of Merrie old England wearing suists, complete with white
> >>shirts, ties, and vests, not to mention bowlers.
> >
> >And Ireland and Scotland.
> >
> >At the prices one pays for the privilege of fishing those streams, you
> >could attend the opera, and one always dresses up a bit for the opera.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Sigvaldi Eggertsson]

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> > I had dinner last night with a couple from Tierra del Fuego, the big
> > island to the south of Argentina (and part of it). They mentioned a
> > trout-fishing stream where an all-inclusive package ran $1,000 a day
> > (but not including airfare to Usushia!).
>
> I had plans to go to Iceland after arctic char a couple of years
> ago--but when told the daily fee for a section of stream was going to
> run me $900 (that would allow up to four fishermen, or "rods", on that
> section), I decided that Wyoming was a better destination for this
> fly-fisherman-on-a-budget...
>
> Brooks

In what river?!!
This is around the price of the most expensive salmon rivers in
Iceland.
Trout fishing is much less expensive, $ 100 - 200 pays for a river
with a hut or a summer house included, smaller lakes and streams cost
much less.

[Kevin Brooks]

Andrew Chaplin > wrote in message >...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
> > I had plans to go to Iceland after arctic char a couple of years
> > ago--but when told the daily fee for a section of stream was going to
> > run me $900 (that would allow up to four fishermen, or "rods", on that
> > section), I decided that Wyoming was a better destination for this
> > fly-fisherman-on-a-budget...
>
> Go to the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The fish
> taste terrific, the rates are competitive, and you can angle for
> salmon, char, brookies, brown, just about anything that will rise to a
> fly. Then, when you tire of that, you can go to sea (lay off the cod,
> there aren't enough of 'em left). Also, you speak the language -- sort
> of -- and the beers (Black Horse and Quidi Vidi) are superb.
> http://www.gov.nf.ca/tourism/mainmenu/whattodo/hunting/default.htm

I actually looked into that option as well, but it appears that, at
least in Newfoundland, if you are an "outsider" you *have* to obtain
guide services. That may be fine for some folks, but I always
preferred getting out by myself (half of the joy of the sport). The
fishing is by all accounts quite good in the areas you noted (and I
would LOVE to catch a brook that is a bit larger than the typical
native species we have in the southern Appalachians, where 7-9" is a
biggie, and 10" is a monster!). Maybe some day...

>
> And when you tire of fish, have some caribou or seal flipper pie[1].
>
> 1. I cannot, in all truthfulness, vouch for the comestibility of
> flipper pie, it was the one delicacy I was unable to get my hands on
> during my recent tour.

The caribou might be OK (though I am one of those heretics who much
prefer eating a good, young fried rabbit [not to be confused with
European hare, which when I tried it was stronger than my one
experience with eating a bear roast] to any venison I have ever
encountered), but as to the flipper pie...I'd have to be *real*
hungry, I am afraid! But if you get down south, I can recommend the
fried alligator...

Brooks

[Kevin Brooks]

(Sigvaldi Eggertsson) wrote in message >...
> (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message >...
> > Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> > > I had dinner last night with a couple from Tierra del Fuego, the big
> > > island to the south of Argentina (and part of it). They mentioned a
> > > trout-fishing stream where an all-inclusive package ran $1,000 a day
> > > (but not including airfare to Usushia!).
> >
> > I had plans to go to Iceland after arctic char a couple of years
> > ago--but when told the daily fee for a section of stream was going to
> > run me $900 (that would allow up to four fishermen, or "rods", on that
> > section), I decided that Wyoming was a better destination for this
> > fly-fisherman-on-a-budget...
> >
> > Brooks
>
> In what river?!!
> This is around the price of the most expensive salmon rivers in
> Iceland.
> Trout fishing is much less expensive, $ 100 - 200 pays for a river
> with a hut or a summer house included, smaller lakes and streams cost
> much less.

The Icelandic guide I corresponded with must have given me some bad
info; we exchanged a few e-mails, and I specifically asked him (after
picking my lower jaw up from the floor upon reading the $900 quote) if
that price was not directed at salmon, which I was not interested in
pursuing--he said it did not matter. Kind of nixed my plans to go to
Iceland, something I had been looking forward to for some time; I
remember running into a USN P-3 crew dog while fishing a stream in the
mountains of my home state many years ago, and talking fishing with
him for a while. He had pulled a couple of 179-day TDY rotations (this
was back during the bad ol' days of the Cold War) in Iceland, and
talked about catching char on his flyrod until, in his words, he
actually got *bored* with pulling them out of the water. Having been
raised eating its close relative, the brook trout (which IMO is much
more flavorful than any brown or rainbow trout), I always wanted to
try some fresh char (finally did so in a local seafodd restaurant--it
was IMO better eating than salmon), and especially was interested in
smoking some. But even at $200 a day I can find cheaper locatins,
either in Alaska or Canada, to go after the char. Euros who are used
to paying significant money to fish good streams might find Icelandic
fishing a good deal, but to an American who is used to fishing
thousands of miles of public or publicly accessable waters throughout
the US for free, the cost seems a bit high.

Brooks

[Andrew Chaplin]

Kevin Brooks wrote:

> The caribou might be OK (though I am one of those heretics who much
> prefer eating a good, young fried rabbit [not to be confused with
> European hare, which when I tried it was stronger than my one
> experience with eating a bear roast] to any venison I have ever
> encountered), but as to the flipper pie...I'd have to be *real*
> hungry, I am afraid! But if you get down south, I can recommend the
> fried alligator...

I've tried alligator and, while the recipe seemed reasonably tasty, I
thought it could be improved by using pork. Alligator is something I
would opt for if the only other choice were something like iguana.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[cheyenne]

"Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
...

> Alligator is something I
> would opt for if the only other choice were
something like iguana.


In the former Armed Forces Panama Jungle Survival School, we generally
"feasted" on iguana and palm hearts. When it's all you have available, it
goes down quite easily.




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[Andrew Chaplin]

cheyenne wrote:
>
> "Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Alligator is something I
> > would opt for if the only other choice were
> something like iguana.
>
> In the former Armed Forces Panama Jungle Survival School, we generally
> "feasted" on iguana and palm hearts. When it's all you have available, it
> goes down quite easily.

Fortunately for people attending our survival school, one usually gets
to have that rabbit Brooks is talking about. Vitamin C is going to be
a bit of a challenge, unless you don't mind pine needle tea. Again,
_ce sont les devoirs de la situation_, or, you get by on what you've
got.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, vincent p.
norris > writes
>>>Ed, I suspect he was talking about the military.
>>
>>No, it was at a civilian flying club in Southend, UK.
>>
>>Mike
>
>Thanks, Mike. But that arouses my curiosity. Did you usually show up
>for a flying lesson wearing a tie? Did most students? How long ago
>was that?

But of course! I worked for Marconi's at the time!
>
>As a fly fisherman, I've seen many pics of gentlemen fishing the chalk
>steams of Merrie old England wearing suists, complete with white
>shirts, ties, and vests, not to mention bowlers.

'Suit' to me implies a dark, office-style arrangement, in which case
I've never seen those. But a patterned or check-style, yes. No bowlers,
though. Flat caps, usually.

How did you know they were wearing vests?
>
>Did that custom carry over into aviation?

Not to my knowledge. But I have a vague memory of a civilian MoD test
pilot at Boscombe Down who wore a bowler off duty. A somewhat portly
man.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, vincent p.
norris > writes
>>>As a fly fisherman, I've seen many pics of gentlemen fishing the chalk
>>>steams of Merrie old England wearing suists, complete with white
>>>shirts, ties, and vests, not to mention bowlers.
>>
>>'Suit' to me implies a dark, office-style arrangement,
>
>Yes, that's what I meant. Hoover, e.g., is wearing what looks like a
>black or dark blue suit in the pictures I mentioned.
>
>> But a patterned or check-style, yes. No bowlers,
>>though. Flat caps, usually.
>
>Yeah, I've seen those, too. Somewhere, recently, I saw a photo of
>Skues and some other gent whose name escapes me, wearing knickers,
>knee socks, shirt and tie, and what we would call a sports jacket,
>and cap.
>>
>>How did you know they were wearing vests?
>
>I must have been able to see the vest, because it made an indelible
>impression on my mind.

He was no gentleman or you were *far* too close....

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[[email protected]]

Andrew Chaplin > wrote:

>Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
>> The caribou might be OK (though I am one of those heretics who much
>> prefer eating a good, young fried rabbit [not to be confused with
>> European hare, which when I tried it was stronger than my one
>> experience with eating a bear roast] to any venison I have ever
>> encountered), but as to the flipper pie...I'd have to be *real*
>> hungry, I am afraid! But if you get down south, I can recommend the
>> fried alligator...
>
>I've tried alligator and, while the recipe seemed reasonably tasty, I
>thought it could be improved by using pork. Alligator is something I
>would opt for if the only other choice were something like iguana.

Or maybe iguana poop...I tried alligator at 'Thackerys' in
Halifax once (please note that 'once' is the operative word
here). :(
--

-Gord.

[Andrew Chaplin]

"M. J. Powell" wrote:
>
> In message >, Cub Driver
> > writes

> >Nota bene:
> >
> >An American fisherman wears an undershirt, a shirt, then a vest (if he
> >wears a vest)
> >
> >A British fisherman wears a vest, a shirt, then a waistcoat (if he
> >wears a waistcoat)
>
> Oh. A 'vest' is a waistcoat? Right. Those luminous orange/yellow things
> are 'vests' in the US?

Yup, usually referred to as "safety vests". For English-speaking North
Americans, a "vest" is a sleeveless garment that fastens down the
front, except when it is made with down or hollofil insulation -- then
it's a "Saskatchewan dinner jacket".

Outside of my family, I have only heard "waistcoat" used when
describing a part of military mess dress, and in that case usually
pronounced "weskit".
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Andrew Chaplin
> writes
>"M. J. Powell" wrote:
>>
>> In message >, Cub Driver
>> > writes
>
>> >Nota bene:
>> >
>> >An American fisherman wears an undershirt, a shirt, then a vest (if he
>> >wears a vest)
>> >
>> >A British fisherman wears a vest, a shirt, then a waistcoat (if he
>> >wears a waistcoat)
>>
>> Oh. A 'vest' is a waistcoat? Right. Those luminous orange/yellow things
>> are 'vests' in the US?
>
>Yup, usually referred to as "safety vests". For English-speaking North
>Americans, a "vest" is a sleeveless garment that fastens down the
>front, except when it is made with down or hollofil insulation -- then
>it's a "Saskatchewan dinner jacket".

Hehe!
>
>Outside of my family, I have only heard "waistcoat" used when
>describing a part of military mess dress, and in that case usually
>pronounced "weskit".

Right, thanks.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[vincent p. norris]

>A British fisherman wears a vest, a shirt, then a waistcoat (if he
>wears a waistcoat)
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

Thanks for explaining that, Dan.

vince norris