AF Academy finished

[Joey Bishop]

"Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
women, aged 16 and 18. "

As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and the
tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There is
no reason for it's further existence.

[Vaughn]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
> alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
> women, aged 16 and 18. "
>
Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the
opposite sex? What is this world coming to?

> As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and the
> tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There is
> no reason for it's further existence.

Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)


>
>

[Joey Bishop]

"Vaughn" > wrote
>
> Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
> going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

Yea. Never mind. You're right. What the hell, it's free money anyway,
and the public can kiss their ass.

[Joey Bishop]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.

Yea. You're right. It's free money anyway, so the public can
just kiss their ass.

[Brian]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Vaughn"
> > Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
> >going on at the Army and Navy Academies?
> >
> >Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)

> Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.

The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn from
the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines should
be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled onto a
base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
"brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more educated".

[Joey Bishop]

"Brian" > wrote
>
> The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn from
> the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines should
> be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled onto a
> base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
> "brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more educated".

These were the officers who rose through the ranks in the 80's when the military
had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public apathy,
and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university, and the
result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their distinction.
Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.

[John Smith]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Brian" > wrote
> >
> > The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn
from
> > the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines
should
> > be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled
onto a
> > base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
> > "brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more
educated".
>
> These were the officers who rose through the ranks in the 80's when the
military
> had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public
apathy,
> and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university,
and the
> result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their
distinction.
> Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.
>
>

And what is it that you do for our country, Sir ?

[John Smith]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >From: "Vaughn"
> > > Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and
whoring
> > >going on at the Army and Navy Academies?
> > >
> > >Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)
>
> > Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.
>
> The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn
from
> the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines should
> be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled onto
a
> base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
> "brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more educated".
>
>

Agree to a point. It's lack of discipline. Too many commanders can't do
anything without their lawyers present to make sure they won't get sued.

Young cadets and airman can get away with more now than before without being
disciplined so that's what you get.

Too many lawyers and politics in the military today.

[Mike Marron]

>"John Carrier" > wrote:

>While we're being regularly presented with these dismal details on the
>national news (something like 20% victimized in a "sexual assault," an
>amazing number of rapes), I'd like to know what they're using as the
>operative definition of the crimes.

Some policitically correct definition no doubt. We've been through all
this before. In other words, forget the AFA because if an all out war
breaks out somewhere...

-Mike (the enemy would rape the estrogen right outta' them!) Marron

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "John Smith"
>Date: 8/31/03 5:38 AM Pacific

>Too many lawyers and politics in the military today.
>

Without lawyers there is no rule of law. Besides, the lawyers raped no one.
Keep you eye on the ball.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "Jim Baker"
>Date: 8/31/03 7:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>0's when the
>military
>> had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public
>apathy,
>> and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university,
>and the
>> result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their
>distinction.
>> Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.
>>
>Those first two sentences are the statements of an ignorant person. The pay
>raises of 1980, 1981 (about 25% in those two years bringing pay to approx.
>civilian par for several years) were the highest in decades, before or
>since. Also, due to the pay raises and obvious support from the President,
>the military was rejuvenated, the antithesis of decimated, when Reagan was
>elected following the debacle of the "hollow force" created under Ford and
>Carter in the 1970s. So the entire underpinning of your argument is wrong.
>
>I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
>public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?There
>have been mistakes made recently and through investigations and punishment
>have/has been and should be, as the situation unfolds, meted out. Also,
>your "sky is falling" statements show you have no historical perspective.
>The academies go through periodic "scandals" (I remember them from the
>1950's up to today) that are due to their atypically high moral/ethical
>standards compared to other universities. I understand the severity of rape
>when compared to cheating and lying. The USAF will properly deal with the
>problem just as the Army and Navy have properly dealt with sexual
>harassment/rape episodes at their academies.
>
>Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
>organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
>Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
>the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
>a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.
>
>Jim Baker
>ROTC Graduate
>
>


Well said and long needed saying.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joey Bishop]

"Jim Baker" > wrote
>
> Those first two sentences are the statements of an ignorant person. The pay
> raises of 1980, 1981 (about 25% in those two years bringing pay to approx.
> civilian par for several years) were the highest in decades, before or
> since. Also, due to the pay raises and obvious support from the President,
> the military was rejuvenated, the antithesis of decimated, when Reagan was
> elected following the debacle of the "hollow force" created under Ford and
> Carter in the 1970s. So the entire underpinning of your argument is wrong.

Using this kind of logic, we must have brought in new Majors, and Colonels
right off the street, rather than promote the dregs of the late 70's, early 80's.
My argument is, that the dregs of the anti-military years, became the Generals
that destroyed the Academies high standards.

> I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
> public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.

> Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
> organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
> Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
> the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
> a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.

I value a college degree, but above that, I value the institution that handed-out
the degree. If I think the institution is just a whore house, or a den of thieves,
then I could care less what paper you are trying to hand me. I'd rather hire
non-Americans if it comes to that. I want to work with people who value
the community. Right now I don't value the institution of the AF Academy,
and whoever shows up with paper from it, can kiss my ass. It's just a
whore house at the tax payers expense.

Joey

[Brian]

"Jim Baker" > wrote in message
et...
> The USAF will properly deal with the
> problem just as the Army and Navy have properly dealt with sexual
> harassment/rape episodes at their academies.

Here's where you are completely wrong. Had the USAF properly dealt with the
problem, we would not be at this stage of the game. Hence, they will suffer
just like the Navy and Army did. What we have here is commanders pushing
crap under the rug to save their own ass. Burying stuff has never worked.
The Navy tried it with Tailhook..it didn't work. The Army tried it at
Aberdeen..it didn't work. The *only* way to deal with unpleasant things is
to deal with them. That is what leadership is about and that is what the
USAFA sorely lacked. I just can't fathom how these so called "leaders"
screwed this up so bad.

[Ed Rasimus]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote:

>"Jim Baker" > wrote
>>

>Using this kind of logic, we must have brought in new Majors, and Colonels
>right off the street, rather than promote the dregs of the late 70's, early 80's.
>My argument is, that the dregs of the anti-military years, became the Generals
>that destroyed the Academies high standards.

How many general officers are assigned to the Academy at one time?
Would you believe two--the Superintendent (a 3-star) and the
Commandant of Cadets (1-star). Would you like to name some names of
these "dregs" that destroyed the high standards? Maybe we could look
more profitably at the Academy Board of Visitors--those
Congresspersons and their appointees who were supposedly the
over-sight for the institution.

There's long been a philosophy of the military "eating their
young"--holding a wing commander responsible for aircraft accidents or
discipline breaches. It is reasonable to an extent. A commander should
be in control of his/her organization. But, it often becomes
unreasonable when the commander is punished for actions or results of
which they could have had no warning or which occurred in direct
violation of their orders.

Fortunately, the response of General Jumper and Secretary Roche have
been predominantly reasonable and proper. The initial corrective
policies being established by Sup't Rosa and Commandant Weida seem
equally appropriate.
>
>> I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
>> public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?
>
>The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they spend
>most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.

Do you really? Where did you see this "astounding" number? Was it
maybe "Parent's Weekend" over Labor Day? I LIVE in Colorado Springs,
about three miles from the Academy main gate. I frequent the Academy
for retiree services. I'm astounded by how seldom I see cadets in
uniform off the facility. With nearly 4000 cadets in training, it
would seem reasonable to see a lot more. I see plenty of GI's--after
all, we've got Peterson AFB, Schriever AFB, Cheyenne Mt AFS, Fort
Carson and AFA all in Colorado Springs. Could you be mis-identifying
military members for cadets?
>
>> Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
>> organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
>> Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
>> the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
>> a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.
>
>I value a college degree, but above that, I value the institution that handed-out
>the degree. If I think the institution is just a whore house, or a den of thieves,
>then I could care less what paper you are trying to hand me. I'd rather hire
>non-Americans if it comes to that. I want to work with people who value
>the community. Right now I don't value the institution of the AF Academy,
>and whoever shows up with paper from it, can kiss my ass. It's just a
>whore house at the tax payers expense.
>
>Joey

The won't show up with a "paper from it" until they've graduated and
served their country for several years. In that time, they will have
possibly graduated from pilot training, flown multi-million dollar
systems for severals years and maybe been in combat. They probably
have earned an advanced degree and they undoubtedly have supervised
more people, larger budgets, bigger projects with more responsibility
than their civilian counterparts. They are the ones that met the
standard, graduated and succeeded.

The ones who are getting the bad press, are the ones who will be
weededd out. They are in the decidedly small minority.

But, you manage your business the way you think best.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[Joey Bishop]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>
> How many general officers are assigned to the Academy at one time?

I think it took years to get where it is. We're talking about successive
regimes.

> Fortunately, the response of General Jumper and Secretary Roche have
> been predominantly reasonable and proper. The initial corrective
> policies being established by Sup't Rosa and Commandant Weida seem
> equally appropriate.

But, the student body hasn't changed their mindset. Just this week more
were arrested with booze and teen whores in a Motel.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/31/03 10:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Sounds like you couldn't make the cut and are bitter and jealous about it.
>
>No Fluffy, I earned my degree from Lewis & Clark, and paid my own way.
>
>I could have taken the easy way, and quit after grade school, as you did,
>but I appreciate a quality education, and I appreciate those who earn a
>degree from a respected college or university.
>
>


WOW ! You are a real hero dumbo. Lewis and Clark is no Harvard or even close.
All my CO's in WW II were West Pointers, brave well trained leaders. I am glad
we had them and not you in spite of your awe inspiring credentials. (yawn)

..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joey Bishop]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> WOW ! You are a real hero dumbo. Lewis and Clark is no Harvard or even close.

Dear Fluffy:

I see you get an erection for Harvard boys. I wasn't born into wealth, so
I got my degree from another source. I'm proud of both my degree, and the
college. I have never once compared my education to Harvard, so I don't
know why you bring that up, unless it's for the sexual matters discussed above.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/31/03 11:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> WOW ! You are a real hero dumbo. Lewis and Clark is no Harvard or even
>close.
>
>Dear Fluffy:
>
>I see you get an erection for Harvard boys. I wasn't born into wealth, so
>I got my degree from another source. I'm proud of both my degree, and the
>college. I have never once compared my education to Harvard, so I don't
>know why you bring that up, unless it's for the sexual matters discussed
>above.
>
>

Dear Dumbo,

When Harvard was mentioned you immediately responded with sex and erection. No
one mde that connection but you. Only you. Good thing you never made it to the
Air Force Academy. America owes you a debt of gratitude for staying away.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[cheyenne]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .

> The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they
spend
> most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.
> Joey

Me too. In fact, I live within a couple of miles of the North Gate in
Gleneagle so I guess you could say I go to Colorado a lot. But I don't see
this 'astounding' number of cadets in town that you claim to see. It's rare
to see a cadet in uniform off base, unless it's at a local restaurant with
their parents.
Your attitude towards the Academy must stem from some deep-rooted abhorrence
of the military, and particularly the Air Force. Could it be that you were
somehow unqualified/unable to serve our country in uniform?




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "cheyenne"
>Date: 8/31/03 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .
>
>> The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they
>spend
>> most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.
>> Joey
>
>Me too. In fact, I live within a couple of miles of the North Gate in
>Gleneagle so I guess you could say I go to Colorado a lot. But I don't see
>this 'astounding' number of cadets in town that you claim to see. It's rare
>to see a cadet in uniform off base, unless it's at a local restaurant with
>their parents.
>Your attitude towards the Academy must stem from some deep-rooted abhorrence
>of the military, and particularly the Air Force. Could it be that you were
>somehow unqualified/unable to serve our country in uniform?
>

In his case it is just bitter jealously. There's a lot of that around in the
loser community

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[av8r]

Joey you sound very much like a very bitter person with an axe to grind.

(1) Were you rejected entry to a military academy by any chance?
(2) Were you a member and could not make the grade?
(3) Were you a member and got kicked out?

Cheers...Chris

[Joey Bishop]

"av8r" > wrote
>
> Joey you sound very much like a very bitter person with an axe to grind.

I'm not bitter. It's just a newsgroup.

> (1) Were you rejected entry to a military academy by any chance?

I was never elligible. My GPA was not in the top 10% in 1972, and my
father had the same job as Archie Bunker. There is no inherited wealth
in my families generations, and we have never known any Congressmen
or Senators.

> (2) Were you a member and could not make the grade?

I was never a member of any Academy. I paid for my school 100%.
No gift from momma or papa either. I worked on the sales floor of a
clothing store in downtown Portland, and washed my own clothes.
The only whores I knew about, were in the arrest sheet of the Sunday
Paper.

> (3) Were you a member and got kicked out?

I was never a member of any military or quasi-military Academy.

> Cheers...Chris

Ta, Ta

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>All my CO's in WW II were West Pointers, brave well trained leaders. I am glad
>we had them and not you in spite of your awe inspiring credentials. (yawn)

Flipping it around, one of the worst officers I knew was a regular who
had done all his studying at Sandhurst, while a couple of the best field
leaders I served under were UOTC graduates.

Judge the leader, not where he got his degree. (You have to salute the
uniform anyway).

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/31/03 12:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>I was never a member of any military or quasi-military Academy.

That is obvious since you lack the military mind as is evident by your posts on
this NG.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Ed Rasimus
> writes
>I LIVE in Colorado Springs,
>about three miles from the Academy main gate. I frequent the Academy
>for retiree services. I'm astounded by how seldom I see cadets in
>uniform off the facility. With nearly 4000 cadets in training, it
>would seem reasonable to see a lot more.

When I was looking for lunch in Annapolis, you couldn't swing a cat
without hitting a USNA student, or so it seemed. (I might add that they
presented as a well-behaved bunch, only made conspicuous by the uniform,
rank tabs and name badges - certainly better behaved than I and my
cohorts were as students).

>They probably
>have earned an advanced degree and they undoubtedly have supervised
>more people, larger budgets, bigger projects with more responsibility
>than their civilian counterparts.

Well, not always - they get to *use* the kit, but someone had to design
and build it for them :)

>The ones who are getting the bad press, are the ones who will be
>weededd out. They are in the decidedly small minority.

Too true.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>Date: 8/31/03 12:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>All my CO's in WW II were West Pointers, brave well trained leaders. I am
>glad
>>we had them and not you in spite of your awe inspiring credentials. (yawn)
>
>Flipping it around, one of the worst officers I knew was a regular who
>had done all his studying at Sandhurst, while a couple of the best field
>leaders I served under were UOTC graduates.
>
>Judge the leader, not where he got his degree. (You have to salute the
>uniform anyway).
>
>--

You have your experiences, I have mine.
..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Leslie Swartz]

Agree completely.

Violators should be identified and swift, sure justice meted out.

Including the women involved; one problem that has persisted to this point
is that women involved in breaches of the rules have not been punished- all
they need to do to avoid punishment is to make an allegation of sexual
assault, and their prosecution grinds to a halt.

What, you think they don't figure this out in oh say the first 10 days of
training?

Some (no numbers on how many) of the most recent cases of "Sexual Assault"
invove some very "interesting" circumstances; many where the allegation came
out only after an investigation of a femal cadet's misbehavior was about to
result in punishment.

I think where the previous regime really screwed the pooch was int hat they
were being thorough, impartial and objective in their investigations.

Obviously, that didn't "strike the right tone" for some folks.

Can we solve the problem by using a "shoot first, ask quesitons later"
approach combined with "the male will always be guilty" approach? You bet
your ass that will work. Probably faster and more efficiently than any
"fair" approach. What's best for the academy as an institution at this
point in time might be a raw deal for any male who strays one iota from
conduct rules for the next few years.

So be it. Let's go burn us some "witches."

Steve Swartz


"Gooneybird" > wrote in message
...
> Vaughn wrote:
> > "Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> "Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
> >> alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
> >> women, aged 16 and 18. "
> >>
> > Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the
> > opposite sex? What is this world coming to?
> >
> >> As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and
the
> >> tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There
is
> >> no reason for it's further existence.
> >
> > Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and
whoring
> > going on at the Army and Navy Academies?
>
> That may be, but one might reasonably wonder why any of them thought they
were
> ordinary college boys and able to do the boozing and whoring that ordinary
> college boys do. In any case, whatever the academy, they need to be shown
the
> door on the basis of their display of conduct unbecoming of an officer,
etc.,
> which I think is part of Art. 134 of the UCMJ. They're supposed to be
different
> from and better than the ordinary and, if they aren't, they never will be
> missed.
>
> George Z.
>
>
>

[John Carrier]

The appearance of lawyers is the first sign of true civilization, the
proliferation of them (we have more lawyers than doctors in this country) is
the first sign of civilization's demise.

R / John

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
> >From: "John Smith"
> >Date: 8/31/03 5:38 AM Pacific
>
> >Too many lawyers and politics in the military today.
> >
>
> Without lawyers there is no rule of law. Besides, the lawyers raped no
one.
> Keep you eye on the ball.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Mike Marron]

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

>There are clearly problems at the school, but I don't think it is
>productive to seek simple solutions. Some of the problems are
>unquestionably the result of failed oversight. Other factors are the
>integration of women into a predominently male culture. There are
>always going to be neanderthals who will resist the progress of
>bringing women into a warrior ethic. It's taken twenty-five years to
>bring women into pilot training in the USAF, then several more years
>to get them eligible for combat crew positions, then more years to get
>them accepted as meeting the standard for those jobs. Now, they've
>performed adequately in combat roles in a couple of actual shooting
>engagements and their acceptance is nearly complete.

All true, but not everyone who resists the progress of bringing women
in a warrior ethic are "neanderthals." I'm all for women being trained
to fly high tech equipment in combat...as long as they're also being
trained to fight alongside the men on the ground (as go-gettum
warriors -- not merely support personnel like Jessica Lynch). It takes
three times longer to train a SEAL or special forces operative as it
does a fighter pilot but we don't see any women SEALS, Rangers,
Delta Force, etc. The only reason the USAF and USN are training
women to fly airplanes is simply because flying an F-18 or A-10
doesn't require the physical attributes required to be an effective
warrior on the ground. They can't legislate physical strength (they
can only bitch to God for creating men and women unequal in the
strength department) but for political purposes they CAN train women
as pilots.

-Mike Marron

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Mike Marron
> writes
>All true, but not everyone who resists the progress of bringing women
>in a warrior ethic are "neanderthals." I'm all for women being trained
>to fly high tech equipment in combat...as long as they're also being
>trained to fight alongside the men on the ground (as go-gettum
>warriors -- not merely support personnel like Jessica Lynch). It takes
>three times longer to train a SEAL or special forces operative as it
>does a fighter pilot but we don't see any women SEALS, Rangers,
>Delta Force, etc.

Where will you recruit them from, since you're legally forbidden to have
female infantry?

>They can't legislate physical strength (they
>can only bitch to God for creating men and women unequal in the
>strength department) but for political purposes they CAN train women
>as pilots.

Back when I was in uniform, our job was rescuing and repairing damaged
vehicles.

There's no way that any individual, no matter how pumped, buffed and
beefy, is going to drag a 70-ton tank out of the mud it's bogged in.
What _does_ count is fitness, stamina, resilience, and intelligence (to
pull that seventy-ton tank out of the swamp with a twenty-ton recovery
vehicle without breaking cables, burning out clutches or killing the
recovery team).


I tend towards the "let everyone try for the job" situation, but I also
want solid clear unambiguous standards for any given military role (yes,
this is idealistic). Meet them and you're in, fail them and you're out.
If that means fewer members of $GROUP qualify, too bad - those who _do_
qualify have proved they fully deserve to get in.


I never had the eyesight to fly, and never got fit enough to be a Para
or Marine, but I _did_ prove I could run far enough and shoot well
enough and had the trade and field skills to do my job in the Army.

And I get to sanctimoniously proclaim that the only thing that kept me
out of a fast-jet cockpit was my eyesight (prove me wrong!) because an
arbitrary and archaic bias against severely myopic fighter pilots
prevented me from ever discovering any other reason why I wouldn't now
be converting to Eurofighters at Warton :)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Mike Marron]

>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote:

>Where will you recruit them from, since you're legally forbidden to have
>female infantry?

My point exactly!

-Mike Marron

[av8r]

Hi Joey

Thanks for your forthright honesty.

Cheers...Chris

[Mike Marron]

>"Jim Baker" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>All true, but not everyone who resists the progress of bringing women
>>in a warrior ethic are "neanderthals." I'm all for women being trained
>>to fly high tech equipment in combat...as long as they're also being
>>trained to fight alongside the men on the ground (as go-gettum
>>warriors -- not merely support personnel like Jessica Lynch). It takes
>>three times longer to train a SEAL or special forces operative as it
>>does a fighter pilot but we don't see any women SEALS, Rangers,
>>Delta Force, etc. The only reason the USAF and USN are training
>>women to fly airplanes is simply because flying an F-18 or A-10
>>doesn't require the physical attributes required to be an effective
>>warrior on the ground. They can't legislate physical strength (they
>>can only bitch to God for creating men and women unequal in the
>>strength department) but for political purposes they CAN train women
>>as pilots.

>As I read it, this post just doesn't pass any common sense filter. Are you
>saying that women shouldn't be allowed by the government to do a job they've
>proven they're capable of doing because they've proven they're not
>physically capable of doing a different, totally unrelated job?

>I've read your post three times and I think that's what you're saying. If
>I'm wrong, nevermind. If I'm right, your post is nonsensical/illogical.

No, what's nonsensical/illogical is the notion that women should
have it both ways. If a tiny nation such as Israel which is constantly
fighting to protect itself, doesn't use women in combat, the only
reason the U.S. has women filling combat positions in airplanes is
to fulfill equal opportunity mandates as prescribed by politicians.

-Mike Marron

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 8/31/03 4:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>>No, what's nonsensical/illogical is the notion that women should
>>>have it both ways. If a tiny nation such as Israel which is constantly
>>>fighting to protect itself, doesn't use women in combat, the only
>>>reason the U.S. has women filling combat positions in airplanes is
>>>to fulfill equal opportunity mandates as prescribed by politicians.
>
>>Then there was that memorable morning at Stansted. We were socked in.
>Mission
>>cancelled. Ceiling not zero, but damned near zero. Suddenly we heard the
>>unmistakeable sound of twin R-2800's overhead, Men rushed out to light the
>>firepots to burn off some of the fog. Then we saw it, A B-26 on final
>coming
>>in down and dirty, smooth as glass. It kissed the runway with hardly a
>squeal
>>and braked to a stop. Out climbed a slip of a girl, a WAAF ferry pilot
>>delivering a replacement B-26 to us. She had more hours than most of our
>>pilots. And she was amazing.
>
>So, what's your point? That women are fine aviators? Ancient news.
>
>>Don't ever tell me women can't fly
>
>Huh? I've trained women pilots to fly, have YOU?
>
>>or give me that "political" crap.
>
>Is that the best argument for women in combat you can come up with?
>
>>The question now is will you ever be half the pilot she
>>was?
>
>C'mon down to Tampa and I'd be more than happy to take you up...
>
>-Mike (might wanna bring along an extra pair of underwear) Marron
>
>
>
Bragging again?. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[C Lee]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
> >From: "Vaughn"
> >Date: 8/30/03 3:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> "Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
> >> alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
> >> women, aged 16 and 18. "
> >>
> > Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the
> >opposite sex? What is this world coming to?
> >
> >> As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and
the
> >> tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There
is
> >> no reason for it's further existence.
> >
> > Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
> >going on at the Army and Navy Academies?
> >
> >Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.
>
> Arthur Kramer


I generally support you here Art, but Tailhook came with major
repercussions.
Navy Air will never be what it was before that (some good, some bad). The
current AF Academy situation also calls for major repercussions, not the
token
responses seen to date. Leadership has clearly failed.

Giz

[Jim Baker]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Jim Baker" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>All true, but not everyone who resists the progress of bringing women
> >>in a warrior ethic are "neanderthals." I'm all for women being trained
> >>to fly high tech equipment in combat...as long as they're also being
> >>trained to fight alongside the men on the ground (as go-gettum
> >>warriors -- not merely support personnel like Jessica Lynch). It takes
> >>three times longer to train a SEAL or special forces operative as it
> >>does a fighter pilot but we don't see any women SEALS, Rangers,
> >>Delta Force, etc. The only reason the USAF and USN are training
> >>women to fly airplanes is simply because flying an F-18 or A-10
> >>doesn't require the physical attributes required to be an effective
> >>warrior on the ground. They can't legislate physical strength (they
> >>can only bitch to God for creating men and women unequal in the
> >>strength department) but for political purposes they CAN train women
> >>as pilots.
>
> >As I read it, this post just doesn't pass any common sense filter. Are
you
> >saying that women shouldn't be allowed by the government to do a job
they've
> >proven they're capable of doing because they've proven they're not
> >physically capable of doing a different, totally unrelated job?
>
> >I've read your post three times and I think that's what you're saying.
If
> >I'm wrong, nevermind. If I'm right, your post is nonsensical/illogical.
>
> No, what's nonsensical/illogical is the notion that women should
> have it both ways. If a tiny nation such as Israel which is constantly
> fighting to protect itself, doesn't use women in combat, the only
> reason the U.S. has women filling combat positions in airplanes is
> to fulfill equal opportunity mandates as prescribed by politicians.
>
> -Mike Marron

This is a silly sub-thread. What you're saying is women are choosing to
only be pilots and not combat arms soldiers. Nothing could be further from
the truth since they aren't allowed to apply to certain combat specialties
by law. Your insistence that they're having it both ways by their own
choosing just doesn't make sense because it's incorrect on the face of it.
Let's drop it.

JB

[C Lee]

"Gooneybird" > wrote in message
...
> Vaughn wrote:
> > "Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> "Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
> >> alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
> >> women, aged 16 and 18. "
> >>
> > Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the
> > opposite sex? What is this world coming to?
> >
> >> As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and
the
> >> tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There
is
> >> no reason for it's further existence.
> >
> > Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and
whoring
> > going on at the Army and Navy Academies?
>
> That may be, but one might reasonably wonder why any of them thought they
were
> ordinary college boys and able to do the boozing and whoring that ordinary
> college boys do. In any case, whatever the academy, they need to be shown
the
> door on the basis of their display of conduct unbecoming of an officer,
etc.,
> which I think is part of Art. 134 of the UCMJ. They're supposed to be
different
> from and better than the ordinary and, if they aren't, they never will be
> missed.
>
> George Z.

Outstanding post. I'm a Naval Aircrewman with 20 years mixed service. I
may
find myself flying with one of these grads at some point. The Service
Academy's
obligation to me is to ensure that I get the best they can produce. If they
aren't
the best get rid of them, I don't want them. If the leadership can't do
that, then
get rid of the leadership, for they have surely forgotten their duty.

Giz

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "C Lee"
>Date: 8/31/03 4:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>> >From: "Vaughn"
>> >Date: 8/30/03 3:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> "Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
>> >> alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
>> >> women, aged 16 and 18. "
>> >>
>> > Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the
>> >opposite sex? What is this world coming to?
>> >
>> >> As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and
>the
>> >> tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There
>is
>> >> no reason for it's further existence.
>> >
>> > Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
>> >going on at the Army and Navy Academies?
>> >
>> >Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>
>I generally support you here Art, but Tailhook came with major
>repercussions.
>Navy Air will never be what it was before that (some good, some bad). The
>current AF Academy situation also calls for major repercussions, not the
>token
>responses seen to date. Leadership has clearly failed.
>
>Giz
>
>
I agree. I think that since this is now exposed the problem will be solved in
short order.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Bragging again?. (sigh)

Pot.Kettle.Black again? So, does this mean you aren't coming down?
I guarantee you would have a great time and would return home
as a less bitter, angry old man. Since you have this raging mad-on
for me for some reason but you're afraid to fly, C'mon down anyway
and we'll go have a drink and arm wrestle or something...

-Mike (you might even meet a bikini on the beach and get laid!) Marron

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>Pot.Kettle.Black again? So, does this mean you aren't coming down?
>>I guarantee you would have a great time and would return home
>>as a less bitter, angry old man. Since you have this raging mad-on
>>for me for some reason but you're afraid to fly, C'mon down anyway
>>and we'll go have a drink and arm wrestle or something...

>>-Mike (you might even meet a bikini on the beach and get laid!) Marron

>You re a class act aren't you? (sheesh)

By your standards, Snoop Doggy Dog is a "class act!" Here is
your twisted concept of "class act": (1) telling everybody you were
brave every single post, and offering very little else about anything
except to call people names like "wannabe" for simply disagreeing
with your self-centered point of views (2) being pitiably obtuse; and
(3) heroically working to offset the image of your generation who
humbly served our country without constantly demanding praise and
recognition like you are forever doing. It's not respect you want,
you simply want people to kiss your ass. Sorry pal, but that just
ain't gonna' happen. You take yourself way too seriously and
I'm not sure if what you need is a good piece of ass or a good ass
whipping!

-Mike Marron

[Mike Marron]

>"Jim Baker" > wrote:

[snip]

>This is a silly sub-thread. What you're saying is women are choosing to
>only be pilots and not combat arms soldiers. Nothing could be further from
>the truth since they aren't allowed to apply to certain combat specialties by
>law. Your insistence that they're having it both ways by their own choosing
>just doesn't make sense because it's incorrect on the face of it.

You're putting words in my mouth as I didn't say that they want it
both ways "by their own choosing." Those are YOUR words, not
mine. I'm simply saying that if women are permitted to engage in
aerial combat then women should also be permitted to engage
in ground combat.

-Mike Marron

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>From: "M. J. Powell"
>Date: 9/1/03 3:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>>Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
>>>From: Mike Marron
>>>Date: 8/31/03 3:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id:
>>
>>>No, what's nonsensical/illogical is the notion that women should
>>>have it both ways. If a tiny nation such as Israel which is constantly
>>>fighting to protect itself, doesn't use women in combat, the only
>>>reason the U.S. has women filling combat positions in airplanes is
>>>to fulfill equal opportunity mandates as prescribed by politicians.
>>>
>>>-Mike Marron
>>>
>>
>>Then there was that memorable morning at Stansted. We were socked in.
>Mission
>>cancelled. Ceiling not zero, but damned near zero. Suddenly we heard the
>>unmistakeable sound of twin R-2800's overhead, Men rushed out to light the
>>firepots to burn off some of the fog. Then we saw it, A B-26 on final
>coming
>>in down and dirty, smooth as glass. It kissed the runway with hardly a
>squeal
>>and braked to a stop. Out climbed a slip of a girl, a WAAF ferry pilot
>>delivering a replacement B-26 to us. She had more hours than most of our
>>pilots. And she was amazing. Don't ever tell me women can't fly or give me
>>that "political" crap. The question now is will you ever be half the pilot
>she
>>was?.
>
>They (the ATA - Air Transport Auxillaries) also delivered Lancasters,
>flying solo and without radios.
>
>Mike
>--
>M.J.Powell
>

These ladies would routinely fly in weather that scared the hell out of all of
us. And there is no flying weather like English flying weather Aaaaargh!

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

[snippity snip]

>And there is no flying weather like English flying weather Aaaaargh!

As if. As if YOU would know!

-Mike (British Isles don't have a stranglehold on crummy Wx) Marron

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Mike Marron
> writes
>>"M. J. Powell" > wrote:
>>>ArtKramr > writes
>>>>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>>>No, what's nonsensical/illogical is the notion that women should
>>>>have it both ways. If a tiny nation such as Israel which is constantly
>>>>fighting to protect itself, doesn't use women in combat, the only
>>>>reason the U.S. has women filling combat positions in airplanes is
>>>>to fulfill equal opportunity mandates as prescribed by politicians.
>
>>>Then there was that memorable morning at Stansted. We were socked in. Mission
>>>cancelled. Ceiling not zero, but damned near zero. Suddenly we heard the
>>>unmistakeable sound of twin R-2800's overhead, Men rushed out to light the
>>>firepots to burn off some of the fog. Then we saw it, A B-26 on final coming
>>>in down and dirty, smooth as glass. It kissed the runway with hardly a squeal
>>>and braked to a stop. Out climbed a slip of a girl, a WAAF ferry pilot
>>>delivering a replacement B-26 to us. She had more hours than most of our
>>>pilots. And she was amazing. Don't ever tell me women can't fly or give me
>>>that "political" crap. The question now is will you ever be half the
>>>pilot she
>>>was?.
>
>>They (the ATA - Air Transport Auxillaries) also delivered Lancasters,
>>flying solo and without radios.
>
>Which, like Kramer's non-seqituer, has no relevance whatsoever to
>what I wrote.

Thread-shift?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[David Lesher]

"Jim Baker" > writes:



>I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
>public university.

They seem to have some of the same "Declared major: Football" type
issues we see at big name schools....


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A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
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